V'dibarta Bam - 2013-07-25

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2:10 AM

@Charlie, I think it stands as a reasonable question that can focus on how one can best/ideally maintain proper concentration and properly pronounce the words.

12 hours later…

2:38 PM

Gold badge roundup:

Our first "Famous Question" is a closed one?! What's going on? Where was it linked?

...

Yeyasher Kochachem to our Sherriffs, @DoubleAA, @MonicaCellio, and @msh210! You have more than justified the confidence the community expressed by electing you a year ago.

@IsaacMoses wow, I wonder too. Some of it may just be search; "what's the difference between the Hebrew bible and the 'old testament' [sic]" is a pretty common question, I think.

@IsaacMoses thank you!

@MonicaCellio I think it's more likely due to being linked on some high-readership Christian discussion site, or something like that. google.com/… doesn't link to us on the first page.

... though google.com/… does

@MonicaCellio No, no, madam, thank you!

2:55 PM

@IsaacMoses yeah, after writing that I realized that most people who aren't either scholars or dialed into Jewish sensibilities probably won't use the term "Hebrew bible". Maybe "Jewish bible", or (as you noted) "pentateuch".

@IsaacMoses just following in the heels of our excellent Constables.

@MonicaCellio Well, I chose that term because it's in the question. Dunno how natural a search term it is. Can you see frequent search terms in your mod tools, and can you give a general impression of whether terms relevant to this question appear there?

I assume this is where all the cool kid's hang out? Is this the virtual bimah?

@IsaacMoses here's an interesting one: "does the first five books of the torah have the same titles as the bible".

@rosenjcb welcome! I hope there's less talking on the bimah than here. :-)

Our gabbai is such a pushover, so nope. :)

@rosenjcb bummer. :-(

3:05 PM

@MonicaCellio ... and less off-topic banter in a beit midrash :)

@IsaacMoses, our biggest bucket for search terms, by far, is the annoying "not provided", which I haven't dug into yet. (Don't have time to figure that out right now; I see Google search results offering tips.)

I always felt like the confusion with what we call the "Jewish bible" or "Hebrew bible" stems from a lack of understanding. I grew up secular, so I kind of understand their confusion. Generally, Christians don't understand that the Tanakh was canonized by the Men of the Great Assembly, so they like to put the Neviim and Ketuvim on the same status as Torah.

@IsaacMoses I almost brought up the beit midrash. :-)

@rosenjcb We've had a minyan and more chatting in here at once before. I really hope there aren't bimas that get to that level.

@rosenjcb yeah, to them it all seems to be of equal weight, lumped into what they call the "old testament". From what I've heard they don't actually spend that much time learning it, compared to their own writings (which makes sense). The average Christian on the street as probably never read the majority of the Tanakh -- or even the majority of the torah.

(Huh, it's weird that I capitalized "Tanakh" but not "torah". I don't know why.)

3:10 PM

@MonicaCellio Would that the average Jew on the street had as much familiarity with the contents of Tanach as the average Christian on the street :( (I am not immune to such criticism myself.)

@MonicaCellio Yeah they cover Adam, Noach, Avraham, Exodus and then they throw in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. They want to get to "the good stuff," as I understand it.

@IsaacMoses What's the average Jew? Someone who happened to have a Jewish mother by birth or someone who is at least somewhat active in the community?

Blog - Stack Exchange: Podcast #50 – Listen To This Podcast

Alex Miller on July 25, 2013

Welcome to Stack Exchange podcast #50, featuring usual suspects Joel Spolsky, Jay Hanlon, and David Fullerton, plus special guest Shog9 aka Nine Shogs Shogging. And remember, today’s podcast is sponsored by the House of Lords, bringing you excellent laws, 100% free!

This is podcast #50… sort of. It’s the 50th podcast since we switched from the Stack Overflow podcast to the Stack Exchange podcast, but we’ll celebrate anyway.

Our most recent blog post had an instruction in the title, and 80 people bothered to do so. Apparently, our blog post titles have power. We probably promise only to use it for good. …

@rosenjcb My statement and sentiment apply to the former, to the latter, and (with respect to Nach, particularly) to very observant Jews

@StackExchange They hired Jon Ericson into the Community Team! Good choice!

@IsaacMoses yeah, there are certainly parts of NaKh that I barely know -- lots of stuff I've read once and not with commentaries. I just have to keep working at it.

@IsaacMoses If you average it out, then maybe. Though, I met a lot of Jews raised in secular households (like me) that can't distinguish between say... Torah sheb'al peh and Torah shebik'tav.

@MonicaCellio Yeah, I wish I spent more time reading the haftorahs because my Nakh is lacking as well. The only book I really feel I understand fairly well is Esther, and that's because I love Purim.

3:27 PM

@rosenjcb the haftarahs at least we hear once a year; it's the rest of some of those books that I'm sadly negligent about. It's been years since I did my last read straight through to at least touch everything once; I should do that again, this time noting places I want to come back to with commentaries.

@IsaacMoses Thank you. Baruch tihye.

@MonicaCellio Yeah, there are a lot of sections that we never really touch. Maybe once I get through MT, I'll start a run through too. It's just that you don't get as much payoff when you read Nakh though. If you read through Gemara, MT, or ShA, you are empowered by so many new, fancy terms and phrases you can use. After reading a few chapters on kosher from MT, I just feel so enlightened. Orthodox Union should hire me as a scholarly adviser.

@IsaacMoses Maybe it's like "kol han'arim". Not that we're naarisch here, of course.

@rosenjcb I understand. For me it's about making sure the foundation is solid; maybe I'll spend less time looking up context on quotes in talmud, and even if not, I should know this material better. :-)

@IsaacMoses I suspect he may. (Still catching up on backread here.)

3:35 PM

@MonicaCello I wish I could read Talmud, I know absolutely zero Aramaic and I don't get that same connection when I read a translation... I need to study in a yeshivah for a summer or something.

@IsaacMoses Oh, observant Christians and observant Jews -- I take back my last comment, then.

@rosenjcb Some parts of Nach give you a good idea of Jewish history.

@msh210 That is true. Unfortunately my Koren Tanakh ruins most of it by having cool pictures of state boundaries, family trees, and illustrated paths of armies.

@rosenjcb Does that ruin it? (confused)

@rosenjcb I'm not fluent enough to study without a translation (or a translating chevruta). I'm not that advanced yet. But I can do some, and apparently more than I think if I'm really pushed -- I sat in with a chevruta pair at Hebrew College once and, because I was the visitor, they gave me the copy with nikkud and then said that if I was there I was going to do my share. Fair enough. :-) The nikkud made a huge difference for me. But my vocabulary is still very poor (Hebrew too).

But slow progress is still progress -- going in the right direction, at least. :-)

@msh210 I end up looking at the pictures more than reading the vivid descriptions. I think I might have ADHD. I wonder if any of the great men in Torah had ADHD too... I know some people say Mosheh Rabbeinu had a lisp.

@MonicaCello I mean, I still need niqqud and a translation but I like being able to read the Hebrew and consult a dictionary when needed.

3:46 PM

@msh210 Huh! My grandmother A"H told me a long time ago that "nar" meant fool, and I always assumed that that had evolved from the hebrew na'ar and never associated it with "narishkeit." It turns out that it's from a German word and so associated. And I think we have more narishkeit here than na'arishkeit

2

On a side note, when is Heshy Fried going to be funny again?

@IsaacMoses Oh! I always assumed narisch was from Hebrew naar. Thanks for correcting me. Relevant.

@rosenjcb The Torah itself says Moshe was "heavy of mouth and heavy of tongue". Whatever that means.

@msh210 Thanks for prompting me to correct myself and you

It's like ever since he got married, the humor was just sucked out of him. Even the Chabad rabbi of the student center gave me slack when he saw frumsatire opened up in another tab on my laptop.

@msh210 Yeah, the Torah has some archaic phrasing. Like there's a pun about nakedness and lying in B'reshit and I guess it's suppose to be funny. I want to laugh like an Israelite would, but the galut won't let me.

@rosenjcb Genesis 2:25 - 3:1. Nakedness and cleverness. I don't know whether it was meant as funny. Maybe. I'd guess more likely there's some deep connection between the concepts of nakedness and cleverness.

4:11 PM

@msh210 The rabbi I was studying Torah with mentioned, "I guess it was supposed to be funny." So I'm not sure. All I know is that it's much harder for us to understand it than Mosheh's generation. I can only laugh at silly things like Bais Yaakov girls not knowing what sex is.

@rosenjcb (re Genesis) I don't know your rabbi, but fair enough.

@msh210 He's the rabbi of the Chabad at Tulane... I really need my own, personal rav. Someone who agrees with me on my crazy, Rambamist/rationalist views of Judaism.

@rosenjcb Just so you know, if you wish to designate the particular chat post you're replying to, you can put your mouse over it and a bent arrow will appear at its lower right. Click that arrow and your chat post will be a reply to that post and will appear with a bent arrow at its upper left (as my last post, just above, does).

@msh210 Oh that's neat!

@rosenjcb I assume the Chabad rabbi there wears a black hat?

4:17 PM

@msh210 Yeah, they're blackhatters.

@rosenjcb yeah. Very useful in busier rooms (or busier times of this room), so people know what you're replying to.

@rosenjcb Oh, okay, so he's a Tulane blacktop.

@msh210 8^P I was wondering where you were going with that.

@IsaacMoses Thank you. I'll be here all week.

@msh210 Great guy. Slaved me with manual labor when I decided to work, under the table, for him with the Chabad book-buying fundraiser.

@rosenjcb You should have asked for better working conditions. Like, where you wouldn't have to crouch.

4:25 PM

@msh210 A family sedan and a sporty coupe are competing in a race. Which one wins?

@msh210 I had to crouch a lot to stack 50 lb boxes on a pallet. Books are heavy!

@rosenjcb I thought you were raising funds, not books. (Sorry. msh210's groanerism is infectious)

@IsaacMoses He gave me a "big bag of money," that contained a little over 8 grand to buy books with. Fun stuff.

@IsaacMoses I give up. Which?

@rosenjcb So, those are the funds that you had to raise from under the table? Did you get to put them on the table once you'd raised them, at least? I hope the bills were reasonably large, so it wouldn't be too heavy.

@msh210 The coupe, of course. Two-door veshe-eino two-door -> two-door kodeim.

4:30 PM

@IsaacMoses Well I had to take them out from the side. It was an exceptional experience.

@rosenjcb (Okay, seriously.) So it was a fundraiser whereby Chabad bought a bunch of books and resold them at a higher price? Essentially, a temporary bookstore?

@IsaacMoses applauds

:10494868

@msh210 We bought books from students at the end of the school year... on finals week, and we were a middleman. We were contracted by a company based in Miami.

@rosenjcb I see. Does the university not do that itself? Or were you offering better prices?

@msh210 Universities don't always deal in books themselves.

@MoriDoweedhYa3gob chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/10494652#10494652

@msh210 The university only buys back some books. Some of the textbooks, but they won't buy only all of them.

4:36 PM

@IsaacMoses Well, I meant the university or its bookstore.

@rosenjcb I see. Right, that agrees with my recollection from my own college days (in a different school).

@IsaacMoses I was half hoping that would go by unnoticed.

@msh210 Sorry.

@IsaacMoses Pointing it out is more honest.

@rosenjcb you could try what I do. When I learn gemara with my chavruta, we go through the section we're going to learn and put all the words we don't know in a spreadsheet. (we copy and paste from the text shas on hebrewbooks.org: hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=1&daf=6b&format=text ) then we look up the words in the jastrow (tyndalearchive.com/tabs/jastrow) and put the translation into the spreadsheet. I guess it helps that we are already familiar with aramaic.

@rosenjcb dafyomi.co.il 's background to the daf helps with some of the words as well. It's slow going, but our aramaic vocabulary has expanded and we feel accomplished when we're done

@Menachem Thanks.

@Menachem Sounds like a great method to help remember the vocabulary you learn

4:46 PM

@rosenjcb we also add the full verse and translation for every verse mentioned in the talmud, it makes it so much easier to understand the drushim on the verses

@IsaacMoses if we don't remember that we saw it before we end up looking it up again, so eventually it enters our head

@Menachem My chavrusa insists on studying g'mara with a chumash at hand. He also grabs a Tanach when relevant.

2 hours ago, by Monica Cellio

(Huh, it's weird that I capitalized "Tanakh" but not "torah". I don't know why.)

I guess I meant "chumash" as a common noun -- a particular copy of Chumash -- but "Tanach" as a proper noun -- Tanach itself and not any copy. Even though I stuck "a" before it (you can also say "grabbed a Gray's Anatomy"). cc @MonicaCellio

@msh210 me too, but it takes forever to look up the verses and breaks up the flow. That's why I look up the verses before we start learning and add them to the spreadsheet. I link to chabad.org's verses, since they have Rashi as well. -- I also ran across this sefer a couple months ago: amazon.com/Tanach-Daf-Dovid-Montroe/dp/1598265296

@msh210 that may be why I did it. Thanks.

@msh210 Well, both would have to be common nouns on some level (using "a" proves it), but I think "chumash" was (in my head) common on a more meaning-of-the-word level and "Tanach" common on a more as-used-in-the-sentence level, which explains the capitalization. cc @MonicaCellio again

Or something like that. :-)

@Menachem Yeah, I've seen that. Some newer editions of the Bavli include each verse quoted, entire, with vowels, in the margin.

@msh210 yeah, I don't think I've ever written "Chumash", and my capitalization varies for both tanakh and Torah.

2 hours later…

6:36 PM

@Monica you've probably noticed that my personal style is to capitalize all Hebrew words. It helps to set them apart visually, and I feel it gives respect to Lashon HaKodesh.

7:16 PM

@Monica It means that the user is searching though encrypted google (as in SSL) That also means that the server doesn't get the full URL of the referrer :10493302

MoriDoweedhYa3gob

7:29 PM

sholom 3leicham wara7ameem barocho shal Alloheem

@IsaacMoses who taht is

@rosenjcb sholom 3leicham wara7ameem barocho shal Alloheem

@MoriDoweedhYa3gob Yemenite?

MoriDoweedhYa3gob

@rosenjcb nope but i pray by them

Well I can certainly tell with your ayims and waws.

MoriDoweedhYa3gob

@rosenjcb ayeen :)

@rosenjcb where do you live

@MoriDoweedhYa3gob Ayin* Virginia, and you?

MoriDoweedhYa3gob

7:35 PM

@rosenjcb boro park

@MoriDoweedhYa3gob I could never live in NYC. It's too evil for me.

2

MoriDoweedhYa3gob

@rosenjcb i hear you

@rosenjcb so whats this "rambamist" rabbi you talking bout

@MoriDoweedhYa3gob I need to find a rav that's a Rambamist/rationalist like me.

MoriDoweedhYa3gob

@rosenjcb how much of a "rambamist" are you

@MoriDoweedhYa3gob I usually consult Mishneh Torah on any area of halacha. Also, what does the 7 mean and why don't you transliterate the chet as a het?

MoriDoweedhYa3gob

7:41 PM

@rosenjcb 7 is heith. also if you only follow MT then i dont think you will find any rabbonim that are 100% mt

@rosenjcb make aliyah and you can learn by mori rosSon arusi

@rosenjcb but even he is not 100% rambam even though he is the student of mori gafi7

@MoriDoweedhYa3gob Heith?

MoriDoweedhYa3gob

@rosenjcb heth

@MoriDoweedhYa3gob Oh, ה.

MoriDoweedhYa3gob

@rosenjcb no ח

@MoriDoweedhYa3gob Oh, I see now. I was mistaken before then.

8:07 PM

user image

3

@IsaacMoses Nu!?

MoriDoweedhYa3gob

@IsaacMoses :)

@IsaacMoses im not writing it on the meta either

@MoriDoweedhYa3gob Good! Now copypaste that every time you're tempted to write 7.

I know nothing about MOOCs, but note that Judaic Studies departments in universities often teach things that are not Torah. – msh210♦ 1 hour ago

@msh though most of it is Torah (loosely defined; I'm including things like Jewish history and Jewish philosophy) – Double AA♦ 1 hour ago

@DoubleAA, I was thinking of the parts of it that are gilui panim batora shelo kahalacha. – msh210♦ 37 mins ago

@msh nothing is perfect – Double AA♦ 28 mins ago

@DoubleAA, let's continue this conversation in chat. – msh210♦ 56 secs ago

@msh210 Why can't he write 7? He obviously doesn't like the galut's effect on Hebrew's pronunciation.

Hello

8:20 PM

@Charlie Shalom aleichem.

@rosenjcb Then he shouldn't pronounce Hebrew any which way -- since every now-known way has been affected by galus.

@Charlie boa tarde

@rosenjcb Shalom!

@msh210 Well he's trying to reverse engineer it as effectively as possible. It's a bit hipster, but whatever makes him happy when he davens.

@msh210 boa tarde, tudo bem?

@Charlie saudável, vlw

@rosenjcb heh

8:25 PM

@msh210 I can't be so critical, I still say "Shabbath."

@msh210 vlw? Don't they use vowels in Portugese?

@msh210 True, @doubleaa, but some are less perfect than others. I would not call the Judaic Studies department at a university a reliable source of Torah in general, though some professors (and, in YU, perhaps all) may be.

@IsaacMoses I decided to use chat slang. This is, after all, chat. I do note though that it's supposedly only Brazilian chat slang, and I have no idea where @Charlie is from.

@msh210 חחחחחחחחחחחחחחחח

@msh210 ter saúde é tudo

@IsaacMoses Don't they use vowels in Hebrew? Oh, wait....

8:29 PM

@msh210 hahaa

What's with the Portuguese? Is everyone here sephardic?

Ow, monica is not around... Want to ask her something...

Are there any simple articles/books in Hebrew that I can read to help me with my Modern Hebrew?

@rosenjcb For the spoken language, this is a good resource. (I've tried it and learned some phrases.)

@rosenjcb Please go to area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/36772/hebrew-language-usage , establish an account (if you haven't already), and upvote some sample questions that don't yet have 10 upvotes. This will be a great resource for learning Hebrew, should it make it through all the community-creation hoops

2 hours later…

10:39 PM

@rosenjcb Then why does he keep pretending a גּ is pronounced /dʒ/ ?

@DoubleAA Because it is? sagavyah.tripod.com/ALEFBET.html

@rosenjcb @MonicaCellio See:

2

Q: Good resource for in-depth study of Haftorah?

Is there a good source for in-depth study of the weekly haftorah? I'm thinking of things like historical references, explanations of prophecies, etc. Online or print would work. Something that will give some background to the Haftorah.

torah-study product-recommendation haftarah

@rosenjcb So you found another person who pronounces it wrong?

@DoubleAA There is no wrong or right way to pronounce Hebrew, but it's the more "authentic" way.

@rosenjcb No it isn't.

The more authentic way is a hard G like most people pronounce it.

@DoubleAA .

.

10:43 PM

It should be a plosive, just like בּ דּ כּ פּ תּ

J is an affricate

Egyptian Arabic also has a Gim with a hard G.

@DoubleAA That's just the claim they make, not the one I make. That's why I put scare quotes. I'd like to see your citation though for that case.

@rosenjcb I don't have time this second to collect links online, but there is a letter by Saadya Gaon where he complains that people are messing up the Gimmel because of the Arabic. It's also the "academic consensus" FWIW (probably based on the linguistic considerations of begedkafat and parallels in other extant or semi-extant semitic languages). IIRC Gimmel is listed as a throat letter (not tongue letter) in early grammar-type works.

@DoubleAA Interesting then. He might just have an affinity for Yemenites/Arabs then.

@rosenjcb I disagree! Familiarity with Nakh allows one to appreciate references in Piyutim/Selichot, and even better: make them yourself. Nothing like ripping out a good dis from Yirmiyahu at just the right moment.

Plus, they do come with a High recommendation.

@DoubleAA All I know is "Or LaGoyim" whenever some prick acts rude to a goy.

Quick question, does food that become bishul akum make the untensils and kitchenware not kosher as well?

According to chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/475726/jewish/… it does.

10:57 PM

@msh210 If in general you mean that the number of courses that are kefira-free, then yes (certainly in Bible departments). If you mean by hour of class time, then I'm not so sure. Plenty of the Talmud or Rabbinics stuff by itself isn't necessarily problematic. Methodologically, it may not be the best kiyum of Talmud Torah, but that doesn't make it inherently harmful.

@rosenjcb That's the standard ruling I'm familiar with at least. See Shulchan Aruch YD 113:16 for more details

11:11 PM

@DoubleAA Interesting, I never really thought about it. Shows my knowledge about kashrut. It's a pain being baal teshuvah.

11:22 PM

I just though of a really odd scenario. Pretend it's Shabbat and you urinate from one domain into another (for example, you piss over a fence)... is that considered carrying from one domain to another?

@rosenjcb It's a Mishna. Eruvin 10:5

@DoubleAA Holy crap, the Talmud covers nearly every conceivable scenario!

@rosenjcb That one isn't even so odd, if you lived in a world without plumbing.

@DoubleAA I know, but why wouldn't you just take one extra step to be in the public area? That's why I thought it was odd.

11:59 PM

@double aa, I have to agree with @rosenjcb about there being no "correct" pronunciation, though I agree with you that j for Gimmel isn't more "authentic". ...

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