V'dibarta Bam

Shokhet

12:01 AM

@Scimonster Yeah, well.

@YeZ For the benefit of the blind (who use screen readers) who can't see pictures, we're going around editing the "enter picture description here" part of SE pictures to actually describe the information found in the image

Double AA

12:16 AM

@IsaacMoses Until today.

I think I've done it a few times, but you make it sounds like about 1/2 of pictures have it.

Isaac Moses

@DoubleAA in the scheme if things, we don't have very many pics, only in 1℅ of posts. I'll see if I can query you up a wall of fame.

YeZ

12:41 AM

@Shokhet I knew what the point was. I didn't get what I was supposed to do until I just checked out the revision history of the first few that were done. I did a few.

Matt

@DoubleAA now that I'm at 10k rep, i can see deleted answers... and just to help me understand the guidelines, I'd like to understand why you deleted this answer. The Aruch Hashulchan, at least, suggests it as a serious possibility, but even if not I fail to see how such an answer is "spam or offensive"

What counts?

Monica Cellio

@IsaacMoses well sure, the key to inviting people in is to show them content they're interested in, as you well know. :-)

Matt

@MonicaCellio I missed the conversation; you guys have a way of building the community? something I can help with?

Monica Cellio

@Matt there's a fairly young SE beta site called Community Building, which is about all aspects of that topic -- online (fora, reddits, mailing lists, etc) and offline, moderation/administration/leadership topics and user/member topics. I've bee moderately active there, so the questions I've asked and answered provide one window into it. Note that it started as Moderators.SE and broadened, so it's still mod-POV-heavy.

@Matt and, to come back to the original reason we were talking about it, there's a new question today about the pitfalls of migrating an online community, both technical and non-, and since Isaac did that with 1.0 Mi Yodeya to SE I thought he might be interested.

@DoubleAA some people do it when creating the post in the first place. I think after-the-fact cleanup has been rare until now -- people either notice that default text they're supposed to replace and do so, or they don't and no one else does.

Matt

12:58 AM

@MonicaCellio thanks i figured it out by scrolling up, and that makes sense. there are also some specific ways to build miyodeya, like distributing Q&A packets for the holidays at a shul, and i thought you were referring to somthing like that. I'm a big fan of the site but you need a crowd for crowdsourcing, and frankly I don't think we're there yet

Shokhet

3:56 AM

@Dave The classic (joke) reason: they got tired of saying "Mekudash! Mekudash!" after so many times. — Double AA ♦ Feb 22 '13 at 7:57

@IsaacMoses Do faeiries count as "מהלכי שתים"? ....a friend of mine is researching the halachic permissibility of cannibalism, out of morbid curiosity. You'd be surprised about some of the things ראשוננים say about it....faeries might actually be kosher.

....if I recall correctly, there's a ר"ן somewhere who wrote that "if it's אסור, it's only a דרבנן" =O

....maybe humans are next up for

6 hours ago, by Isaac Moses

Every once in a while, we should post another "Judaism + crazy creatures" question.

?

Shokhet

4:44 AM

In our alt-text addition project, this post is on the "to-do list." I don't see a picture there, just the "broken image" thumbnail. That picture appeared to be an integral part of the answer....should I comment? Flag NAA? Other?

and again here, though this one has a link to a HB page, so it's a little better.

msh210

@IsaacMoses As far as I could tell, just me and one of the TAs.

Double AA

0

A: Let's make Mi Yodeya more friendly to people and machines that can't see images: alt text fix

While we're at it, a mouseover text can also be added. Consider an image from my answer here: [![munich with rashi][10]](http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/bsb00039616/image_1) [10]: https://i.sstatic.net/lXXRR.png "Bavarian State Library in Munich #436(14" This displays as: If you a...

@Shokhet @IsaacMoses ^^^

YeZ

@Shokhet I can see that picture loud and clear.

and gnite

Shokhet

@YeZ Gnight.

@YeZ Really? Odd.

@YeZ wabt the second link I posted here?

Isaac Moses

@Shokhet I can too

Shokhet

4:52 AM

@IsaacMoses I guess something's broken on my side..... :/

Isaac Moses

@Shokhet There's a graphic saying "Tinypic; This image or video has been moved or deleted." Thats's a dead pic-link

@DoubleAA Most useful in cases where it's not clear to someone who can see the picture what it is.

Shokhet

@IsaacMoses Hm....so I guess I can't necessarily trust that a picture I don't see isn't there :/

Double AA

@IsaacMoses And potentially for a funny working or futuristic screen reader. Or some other machine reading program maybe.

Isaac Moses

@Shokhet 1 ... 2 ... 3 negatives. :)

Shokhet

Can someone (not @IsaacMoses) upvote meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/a/3427/5323? ....for convenience's sake, I think it belongs as the top answer, and I upvoted @DoubleAA's answer just now

Isaac Moses

4:55 AM

@DoubleAA alt text isn't good enough for those?

@Shokhet Eh. There are links in the question

Double AA

@IsaacMoses I don't know how they work , but i'm sure someone somewhere has one that works different than how you/me/se expects.

Shokhet

@IsaacMoses Somehow, I doubt my missing pictures will develop anytime soon.

@IsaacMoses I said my convenience, not yours :P ....besides, you can't vote on that post.

@DoubleAA I can ask my friend, but I don't think he does much web browsing.

Isaac Moses

@DoubleAA I think being compliant with the standard is sufficient, especially when we're asking for 150 bits of community labor

Double AA

@IsaacMoses ok but while we're at it, copy pasting and adding quote marks is pretty easy.

Isaac Moses

@DoubleAA Sure, and in some cases, estimably useful. I'd recommend going to the trouble especially in those cases.

Shokhet

5:00 AM

I have to go now. TZT @all!

Isaac Moses

@Shokhet TZT

Double AA

5:14 AM

@DoubleAA judaism.stackexchange.com/q/22752/759 is highly relevant, but maybe not a duplicate. OP seeks to understand a phenomenon where, allegedly, Orthodox Jews overwhelmingly view every facet of every statement of chazal as inerrant. On second thought, I'm not exactly sure of the exact parameters of this alleged phenomenon, since obviously there are internally rejected and disputed statements within the writings of chazal that everyone recognizes as such. So perhaps this should be closed as unclear. Also, I think answers probably would primarily be opinion-based. — Fred 54 secs ago

I agree this question sort of straddles POB, UWYAA and TB. Thoughts @IsaacMoses who hasn't said TZT yet. @msh210 who's here and will likely still be active later tonight.

msh210

@DoubleAA Did you find out why?

Double AA

@msh210 No that was the extent of my inquiry.

Isaac Moses

@DoubleAA He never specifies whose attitude he wants answers to justify/evaluate. By what standard could we judge the correctness of an answer?

@DoubleAA ... That's my take on the question. I need to step away and don't have the patience to process all of the comments and linked posts right now. Sorry.

msh210

@IsaacMoses By and large "Holy Bible" is used to refer to the OT+NT. At least in my experience. That's not true of "Bible".

Isaac Moses

@msh210 'round these parts, we ain't got but one Bible, and it sure do be Holy

3

msh210

5:38 AM

@IsaacMoses Out of curiosity, how did that "℅" character wind up in your chat message instead of "%"?

Isaac Moses

@msh210 Inexperienced phone typer

@msh210 @DoubleAA Thanks for your supplemental guidances for the alt text project. I've incorporated them into the question.

Jan 15 at 18:30, by Isaac Moses

@Shokhet I gotta stop chatting from my phone

msh210

@DoubleAA I can't parse your second acronym.

Double AA

@msh210 it's a third type of close reason

msh210

@DoubleAA Oh, unclear. Okay.

@IsaacMoses I agree. I was just saying why people might think the OP meant the OT+NT. In fact, I think the OP may have meant the OT+NT.

Isaac Moses

@msh210 If so, that's OP's problem, since that's not what that phrase means, here.

@DoubleAA Here is your wall of fame, and here are all of the posts that people posted to get on it.

msh210

5:52 AM

@DoubleAA (I haven't read the comments there.) This is my initial thought, but I haven't thought about it carefully (yet) so take this with a heavy grain of salt. (Or many light ones, I guess.) If this is to be parsed as not opinion-based, it has to mean either (1) "please prove they're infallible" i.e. a duplicate of part of judaism.stackexchange.com/q/22752 or [cont'd]

[cont'd] (2) "why do They say X" which requires a survey of Them to answer and should specify as much (and is unlikely to get an answer).

@IsaacMoses Right, I agree.

@IsaacMoses Oh, I must have misread your earlier chat post. I thought you were gonna post a wall of fame of people who edited others' posts to add non-default alt text where the OP had included the default.

Double AA

@msh210 2 is reminiscent of what @IsaacMoses wrote: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/19801239#19801239

msh210

@msh210 (Or of such posts.)

Isaac Moses

@msh210 , @DoubleAA had asked about compliant content that we already have.

msh210

Downvoting per chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/19801312#19801312. This question probably should be closed. cc @Fred — msh210 ♦ 11 secs ago

Isaac Moses

@msh210 I've never done a query delving into PostHistory. That'll be a fun project for another day. Note that the "wall of fame" query may currently give unfair credit to OPs, where the alt text and possibly image were added later by someone else.

Alright. Gotta really do stuff IRL. It's getting late. TZT! Erev Shabbat Shalom!

msh210

5:59 AM

@DoubleAA chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/19801330#19801330 .

@IsaacMoses You too!

... and y'all. I've gtg also.

Double AA

@msh210 Do you second my putting it on hold until tomorrow when users with more time can look at it?

To avoid bad answers overnight

Isaac Moses

@msh210 That a leaked Office reference? 404 for me.

@DoubleAA I do, based on what I troubled myself to read, FWIW

msh210

@IsaacMoses @DoubleAA Thirded.

@IsaacMoses Something like that.

Double AA

This question is temporarily on hold per chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/19801337#19801337 to avoid unexpected answers while most of our users are away (US night time). It will be reevaluated in ~10-12 hours. — Double AA ♦ 13 secs ago

If y'all could upvote that to make it more prominent... (you too @Scimonster when you awake)

msh210

Tzt. I'm outta heah.

msh210

6:24 AM

Actually, I'm back, to ask one quick question.

Is anyone here adding wheat kernels to (or substituting wheat into) his chulent this week?

Oh, and one more little thing:

I tagged kavana-intention (as per the question's title) and it redirected to intent-accident-purposely. Methinks something needs fixing. — msh210 ♦ 10 hours ago

CashCow

12:24 PM

I have an issue with this topic being closed to convenience the American posters:
This question is temporarily on hold per chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/19801337#19801337 to avoid unexpected answers while most of our users are away (US night time). It will be reevaluated in ~10-12 hours. – Double AA♦ 6 hours ago

This site should not be moderated for convenience of US users

Why not close it in 4 hours time now when it is Shabbat for me?

Scimonster

@CashCow I happen to agree with this. I upvoted @DoubleAA's comment to give it prominence, not because i agree.

Scimonster

12:46 PM

Anyone know where that picture explaining don't vote based on score or user is?

Mike

@IsaacMoses @DoubleAA @msh210 I can see why you guys think I might have been setting up a straw horse since I did not specify who says such things about chazal, but I think community reaction (including DoubleAA's "No one would say that but they would never say they were wrong either. They would say 'yes it's possible for them to be wrong it just never happened'.") shows that this is a real phenomenon in the Jewish community. I am actually quite satisfied with the Rambam ...

... that DoubleAA brought and even more so with the Avraham ben Rambam and Rav Hirsch that @Baby Seal linked to. If anyone rolled those into an answer I would accept it as showing that my premise was somewhat incorrect, but a real community phenomenon. @mevaqesh's answer also gives evidence that I did not dream this attitude up.

CashCow

@Scimonster That they suggested it would be re-evaluated just around the time Shabbat starts here too..

Daniel

1:16 PM

@CashCow it's just demographics. Most MY users are American

Isaac Moses

1:58 PM

@CashCow Your use of "they" is appropriate, as two of us explicitly endorsed @DoubleAA's plan here before he did it. Sorry. Had I considered DoubleAA's question more carefully, I would have said "If it needs to be on hold, put it on hold. It'll get fixed when it gets fixed, and it'll get re-evaluated and re-opened when it does."

I do agree that it needed to be put on hold.

@Mike I have no doubt that the attitude you're describing exists. The problem is that anyone could answer anything regarding what's behind it, as there's no way to verify. In addition, there could be any number of different people or communities who have attitudes that fit your description and that think about it in different ways.

... in "anyone could answer anything" situations, you end up with not crowd-maintained Q&A but endless, fruitless debate, with lots of potential for people talking past each other because they're each dealing with different mental models of the attitude in question.

... In addition, the way the question is phrased, including "I almost never see an orthodox rabbi say: ...," "Why is that so bad to say?," and "Why do we ..." makes it open to perfectly valid answers of the form "Plenty of Orthodox rabbis (e.g. R' Ploni) do say ...," "It isn't, at least according to R' Ploni, et al.," and "Plenty of us don't."

(And in fact, for this question, there are plenty such R's Ploni.)

@msh210, Re pic-as-text, for this question, in particular, do you think we should 1) retype the entire trilingual dictionary entry, 2) retype the very top of the entry, which provides the on-point information, 3) just remove the image and rely on the reference, or 4) something else?

I'm leaning toward (3), since (1) is a lot of work with little value to the question at hand, and (2) adds almost no information on top of the etymology already ascribed in the previous sentence. But then, are we losing something of value?

I'm interested in doing the right thing with respect to this post in particular (CC @Shokhet), but also in using this as a precedent for similar cases.

Scimonster

2:23 PM

@IsaacMoses That is my feeling too.

Yishai

2:36 PM

@DoubleAA Actually, before I went looking it up, I thought pace in that sense meant "contra" or as opposed to. I also thought you were saying I spelled it wrong. So we both learned something ;-)

Isaac Moses

3:26 PM

judaism.stackexchange.com/revisions/…

^^ Given that there were already answers that addressed the particular case of a gym when this edit was made, should we edit the gym back into the question in a depersonalized way?

msh210

5:21 PM

@IsaacMoses re your last post here, can you link to the post for ease of reference?

Isaac Moses

@msh210 this one? The link is in the previous message.

msh210

@IsaacMoses Ideally, type in the whole thing. Until that's done, though -- and I can understand that someone might want to improve the post but not undertake that task -- we definitely shouldn't remove the entry. Having lousy alt text is worse for some people, having no picture is worse for everyone, throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Isaac Moses

@msh210 What is the value of having the entire dictionary entry there in text form?

@msh210 How is having no picture worse for everyone? What do you see as the value of the picture there?

msh210

@IsaacMoses I don't see it. (Maybe because I'm on mobile?) I see only a single revision, and in plaintext, with no link to the post.

Isaac Moses

@msh210 Oops. Bad link. Sorry. ...

@IsaacMoses Re: judaism.stackexchange.com/posts/53273/revisions

msh210

5:28 PM

@IsaacMoses The two questions just asked me are complementary. If there's value in having the entry, there's value in it for the blind (and search engines) also. I made no judgement about whether there's value in it at all; rather, I trusted the poster about that and concluded that there's value for the blind (and searh engines).

Isaac Moses

@msh210 I'm asking for your judgement. I also asked for @Shokhet's. We are in the business of editing each other's stuff to make it as valuable as we can.

Double AA

6:21 PM

@CashCow I also have issues with anything being done to convenience the American posters (or any other group). That would be terrible.

Good thing no one did that in this case, or I'd have to suspend myself lol.

Putting questions on hold is always done to help the asker not get answers they don't want or deserve. Better to just pause and fix things up before reopening as soon as possible.

The fact that I tend to do things on Mi Yodeya between 8AM and 1AM USA time is not in order to give preference to anyone. It's just when I'm awake. I hope you can respect that my sleep patterns are somewhat socially normal.

@IsaacMoses Can you confirm your close vote on the question and perhaps give a reason for it in a comment thereof? I think you want it to switch to POB IIUC.

Isaac Moses

@DoubleAA Which question? Mike's?

Double AA

@Matt I didn't say that it is spam or offensive (though there was one offensive flag IIRC). I deleted it as extremely low quality. It had no source or reasoning or even specification which body parts or factors were at play. I suppose it could have been a comment but i don't see it adding much value there.

@IsaacMoses Yes

Isaac Moses

6:38 PM

@DoubleAA How about if I just upvote Fred's comment? (Done.)

@DoubleAA I don't put too much stock in carefully parsing between one official close reason and another as long as there's a meaningful comment explaining what the actual problem is.

... especially when multiple official close reasons could apply

Double AA

Ok I'm leaving this close as Primarily Opinion Based, per Fred, msh and Isaac, as discussed in chat. — Double AA ♦ 2 mins ago

very well

Shabbat Shalom all

Isaac Moses

@DoubleAA Shabbat Shalom

msh210

7:04 PM

@IsaacMoses Done.

Isaac Moses

@msh210 Thanks

msh210

@IsaacMoses After reviewing the entry with an eye to your question (how much of the picture we need): In this case, I see value in including the fact that Jastrow has the standard and the apocopic forms as headwords for the Hebrew, since the answer includes an example with the latter. But I don't see any value in including more than the first line and half of Jastrow's text [cont'd]

[cont'd] as picture or text. Once it's there, I don't see any particular reason to remove it, but the alt text can be "[the first line and a half of Jastrow] [an ellipsis mark]".

... MHO.

But what we currently have, "Screen capture of the relevant entry in the Jastrow dictionary", is completely useless: all the information that blind people gain from that is already in the preceding paragraph. (Except that Jastrow wrote a dictionary, but that can be edited in to the preceding paragraph easily.) Might as well have "" (empty string) IMO.

Good Shabas, all.

Isaac Moses

@msh210 See? That's the sort of Solomonic reasoning I was hoping for from the likes of you.

@msh210 Before you go, could you please check the flag queue? We've got a spammer

msh210

@IsaacMoses If I understand correctly, he never actually intended to exercise his decision. I'm not quite on that level.

@IsaacMoses Thanks for the heads-up. Will do.

Isaac Moses

@msh210 But you are on a sufficiently high level to use the word "apocopic" and have no one think you're putting on airs.

@msh210 Shabbat Shalom

@msh210 Chopped.

msh210

7:21 PM

@IsaacMoses Y'yasher kochacha. Good Shabas.

Shokhet

9:06 PM

@IsaacMoses I haven't been ignoring you; I just don't have any time at all today. I'll have time Sunday, iyH.

Good Shabbos, everyone!

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