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1:13 AM
@Shokhet Probably not. Whaddaya think?
@YEZ @MonicaCellio Oh, I cleared the flag before I saw this chat discussion, simply because of what @Yishai said:
3 hours ago, by Yishai
@MonicaCellio Its not exactly a question that you would expect @YEZ to be asking, but I don't think the question is bad - it is conceivable that someone would generalize lemon to other fruits and ask this question. Not sure how disowning works.
Of course, it's still deletable if that's what should be done, even though the flag is gone. IMO that's not what should be done.
2:11 AM
3
Q: What questions should we use in a Chanuka publication?

Isaac MosesSuppose we're going to make a Chanuka publication along the lines sketched out here, with one page (or leaf or section or whatever) per night of Chanuka, and each page containing: a Chanuka-related Q&A that's accessible to wide audiences and possibly also: a related Q&A (or possibly alterna...

We now have eight candidate sets of questions, with varying degrees of support (votes). We don't have to decide for a while, but this might be a good time for people to take another look at the proposals that are there and the tags (or other ways of searching the site) to see if there are other questions that should be proposed there.
The broad idea, for those who haven't been tracking this, is to have one small section per night of Chanukah, with a Q&A "for everybody" (suitable for the whole family & varied levels of learning) and then something else more advanced (usually another question and its answers, but sometimes more answers to the first question).
2:53 AM
@msh210 I dunno, that's why I asked. ( And that was my decision already, more or less.... שב ואל תעשה עדיף מקום ועשה ;)
Anyone have any thoughts on my edit here? ......wanted to edit the tags, but see edit description (#2) for the problem
As an aside, why is there a five tag limit? .....some questions (like, IMO, this one) just need more tags.....
YEZ
YEZ
@Shokhet What about the question is reform, specifically?
@Yishai not a bug. Well, at least not one they plan on fixing. You are seeing notices of queues you don't have the authority to review.
@MonicaCellio @msh210 I'm happy to leave the question with the declaration about its mistakenness at the bottom. It will be good for my ego. But if it gets any downvotes, I'll expect everyone who wants it to remain extant to reimburse me with upvotes. :)
3:08 AM
@Shokhet I don't see anything Reform-specific in that question. Also, Conservative allows this and I've heard of it happening in Orthodox congregations. I had the impression that was fairly common, though maybe I'm wrong?
@YEZ you'll note that I offered you an option that keeps the question without affecting you with any downvotes that might come. I don't owe you an offsetting upvote. :-)
(Besides, I've found plenty of your posts upvote-worthy already...)
YEZ
YEZ
@MonicaCellio You would have to really give me 40% of an upvote to offset anyways. Or upvote two posts and downvote 4. But then I would owe you 2 upvotes and 3 downvotes. And then you would owe me one upvote and one downvote. And then I would owe you one upvote and 2 downvotes. And then you would owe me 2 upvotes and 4 downvotes, at which point it becomes an infinite cycle. So maybe it's a better idea to just forget the whole thing.
^^^ that was all assuming all upvotes were on questions. If upvotes were on answers, it could probably work.
@YEZ yeah, you might consider the merits of the idea that votes are not entirely predictable, or evenly-distributed, or necessarily fair, and all we can do is try to be reasonable in how we vote while shrugging off weirdnesses we receive.
YEZ
YEZ
no never mind that wouldn't change it working. Just change the way in which it wouldn't work.
@MonicaCellio I was just trying to work out ending up with exactly 2 rep points without you losing any.
@YEZ as a mathematical puzzle, go wild. As an actual voting strategy, you're thinking too hard. :-)
YEZ
YEZ
@MonicaCellio I appreciate the implication that as a mathematical puzzle there is no such thing as thinking too hard.
3:26 AM
@MonicaCellio and @YEZ I thought that since he used that tag, he was asking it from the Reform perspective, specifically. I was reluctant to remove it without either asking the OP or someone else's opinion, so I did :-)
@MonicaCellio Why leave out ?
@Shokhet fair enough (I thought someone else had added it). But I removed it, because he also says mechitzah and I know of no Reform congregation that follows that. So I think the Reform tag was speculative, not descriptive of his situation. (But maybe I should leave a comment.)
YEZ
YEZ
I lost 40 rep yesterday from a removed user. These things always make me so curious.
@Shokhet buffer overflow? Sorry, it was an accident. Feel free to add it.
@MonicaCellio I didn't think of that....
@YEZ yeah, I get those random rep changes from time to time and it always makes me wonder a little, but there's not much we can do to satisfy that curiosity.
3:32 AM
@MonicaCellio Done.
@YEZ I didn't get any this time, but I have in the past....
@Shokhet thanks.
YEZ
YEZ
@MonicaCellio I guess I'll just have to run in the next mod election.
@MonicaCellio No problem :)
@YEZ I had noticed that one user changed his name to "please delete me," but he's still here....
YEZ
YEZ
This question was inspired after someone at night seder tonight used the phrase in English, prompting both of us to note what an odd phrase it is.
@YEZ won't help. I can't satisfy my curiosity either, I meant -- it's not just you. Ok, if we destroy a spammer or something I'll know that, but if a user deletes his account we don't know about it.
YEZ
YEZ
3:36 AM
@Shokhet and occasionally still active.
@MonicaCellio I guess I'll just have to log a list of every user every night and compare it to the list the following night.
@YEZ That I have not noticed.....
Not saying it's not true, just that I had not noticed it :P
YEZ
YEZ
@Shokhet there was a "please delete my account" fellow, but he seems to have been... deleted.
@YEZ or changed his name again. Didn't notice one way or the other.
@YEZ In order to get an account deleted, from what I've managed to gather, is changing the name and bio to "please delete me," and contacting SE through the "contact us" link on the bottom of every page.
YEZ
YEZ
3:41 AM
@MonicaCellio Didn't notice because you weren't keeping a proper list of users to compare with every night!
@Shokhet right. You have to do both; sometimes users just do the edit and don't contact SE, so it just sits there.
@MonicaCellio I was in the middle of typing that out when first @YEZ and then you interrupted me :P
@Shokhet sorry, didn't see your fingers moving.
@MonicaCellio :)
YEZ
YEZ
@MonicaCellio google chat has a "user is typing" notice
3:45 AM
@YEZ so do Pidgin and Lync. But I don't know how well that scales to rooms with several users in them; if you're having a one-on-one chat you'll notice that and it might affect your behavior, but would you do so here if you had the info?
YEZ
YEZ
@MonicaCellio I ignore it in google, so I assume I'd do the same here.
@YEZ I suspect that when there are five or six people in here we'd all ignore it, and in chat rooms that get 10+ people at a time we'd all be writing userscripts to make it stop bothering us. :-)
Anyway, getting late here. TZT all!
@MonicaCellio TZT :)
YEZ
YEZ
@MonicaCellio nighty night.
Low quality review queue is a script, or does it work through flags?
Just reviewed an answer from June, from a user who had been deleted....that suggests that it works through flags [ unless the script trawls really, really slowly? ]
4:16 AM
@YEZ Have you considered what would have happened if the women happened to have been the type who would come back and say it wasn't the same? What then?
(This just emphasizes why the story is likely not true.)
4:56 AM
@HodofHod Welcome back!
I'm not really. It's an illusion..
 
7 hours later…
12:24 PM
@YEZ How was the phrase used in English? "It was all done up knob and flower. Knob and flower, I tell you."
12:35 PM
@YEZ 9782 open, answered questions ...
12:49 PM
@Isaac @dannyschoemann @scimonster re: this tag edit I was wondering what your rationale for suggesting/approving this tag was?
I tend to agree with @geminiman that it's not really a useful tag
2
It's very generic
1:12 PM
@Daniel I changed it from "modern" to and added a wiki summary that circumscribes it some. It seems reasonable to me that someone might be interested in finding questions that have specifically to do with contemporary issues. I agree that it may be overbroad.
 
1 hour later…
2:16 PM
@MonicaCellio Indeed. I'm pretty sure that at least a couple more good proposals could be written. In addition, everyone's help in voting to express which they like best and commenting/editing to improve the proposals would be quite valuable.
 
1 hour later…
3:34 PM
@Daniel I agree with you as well, though note we do have .
Both seem like meta-tags to me.
@DoubleAA I agree that is likely a meta-tag, since it has little to do with the actual (on-topic) content of the question. I don't think this is true of
Should this get tagged MT?
@DoubleAA Good question, which I agree indicates that the tag is probably either over-broad or insufficiently specified.
@IsaacMoses @DoubleAA this is the first time I have ever felt at all inclined to edit a tag wiki. Good thing I acquired that privilege yesterday
The problem with that tag is that it can be applied to countless questions without really adding anything to them. For example, every question about electricity could have that tag
Also, what is modern? Do the 1700s count?
4:45 PM
@DoubleAA re this:
@MonicaCellio Yes. So? The whole account may be fictional. — Double AA ♦ 5 mins ago
I was responding to this in your earlier comment: " (I'm not saying such reasoning doesn't exist, but the women in your shul are not presenting it.) "
I'm just saying that we don't know what the women in his shul did or didn't do, and saying they haven't presented it when it may well be the OP who hasn't presented it, is not quite right.
I may be nit-picking, but it came off as dismissing the women, and I've seen enough actual cases of dismissing women (for being women) that I didn't want to see it here. Maybe over-analyzing, but that's why I said what I did. (And why I'm not continuing it there.)
@Daniel good timing! :-)
@Daniel yeah, I had a "really? is this helpful?" reaction when I saw that tag pop up. Maybe bring up on meta before tons of stuff gets tagged with it?
@MonicaCellio I'm dismissing the fictional women for not presenting something substantive. This has nothing to do with any real people or their real opinions. Certainly someone's opinion should not be discounted on account of their gender and I don't think I did that in this case.
Would you prefer if my comment that you responded to read "but the alleged women in your shul are not presenting it"?
@DoubleAA thanks for clarifying. I had missed (when I commented) that you were assuming they were fictional. I assumed they were real but not accurately reported.
@MonicaCellio Either way. All we have to work with in that thread is the constructed position. There's no point to speculating what they "really" held or didn't hold.
@DoubleAA no need, now that we've cleared up my misunderstanding. (I might have said something like "according to your account", but eh, that's just style.)
@DoubleAA yup, understood.
@MonicaCellio If you agree I think our latter two comments there can be removed then as the thread is getting long-ish already.
4:56 PM
I was just thinking that thread could do with some pruning. Please feel free.
Perhaps a little late to bring this up, but I saw this question come up through retagging .....the question does not appear to be on-topic, as a purely historical question.
YEZ
YEZ
5:24 PM
@IsaacMoses Not quite that dramatic. He finished saying a dvar Torah, and concluded by kissing his fingertips and saying "ahh! Knob and flower!"
@YEZ Wow. I'd've been completely mystified if I'd heard that.
YEZ
YEZ
@DoubleAA I don't know why that's relevant to the point. And if the story is true, I assume that RYBS had enough foresight to see where things were heading and assessed that that wasn't a risk. There are plenty of stories which I know are true where that was the case. So I don't think it is terribly indicative of the veracity of the story.
@YEZ It's just a piece that fits in the puzzle. FTR my critique of the veracity of the story is independent of my critique of your application of it to this case, neither of which should suggest that the story as a Midrash can't be used to illustrate a valuable point.
@IsaacMoses @MonicaCellio @Others Can we get a Psak about the modern-times tag? If we're going to remove it (which I support) lets not waste peoples time by letting them suggest edits for it.
@MonicaCellio @Daniel @DoubleAA Sorry about approving that one. I think it may have been the wrong decision. Perhaps mod-ping Scimonster in here to discuss?
5:39 PM
@scimonster Pung.
@DoubleAA Thanks.
@Shokhet I read it as about Satmar religious philosophy and gathering facts about it.
@YEZ Interesting, what is the rationale? Note that it isn't just that the number is off, but when I go in there is something. Often there is nothing, making the number a false indicator, demotivating me to bother checking the queues ...
YEZ
YEZ
@Yishai Yeah, it is counting something, some of which you can see and some of which you can't. So sometimes it connotes there is something for you to see (in addition to what you can't see), and sometimes it is just teasing you. I usually only pay attention to the # when it gets high. But I check the queue once a day or so anyways - there are some review tasks that don't show up in that number.
6:05 PM
Hi there everyone. Just to explain the rationale behind the tag: it seems that it could be helpful to categorize questions specifically about modern day innovations. I was not planning on having it replace [tag:technology] or [tag:internet] for example.
I agree with @IssacMoses that while [tag:current-events] seems like a meta-tag, [tag:modern-times] doesn't. I also agree that modern-times is a better name than just modern.
@Scimonster Can you give some examples of non-technology innovations you mean it to apply to?
http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/17892/modern-maaser-and-terumah http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/15809/fasting-on-modern-days-of-mourning http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/45317/what-is-the-status-of-a-modern-day-city-with-regards-to-techum
Just to name a couple.
@Scimonster That's three
@Scimonster Thats three
25
Q: Does "a couple" always mean two?

gerritToday I said some event was a couple of weeks away. A native speaker from Australia corrected me and said, no it's at least three weeks away. What followed was a discussion as to whether a couple always means two, or if it can mean more than two. What does a couple, in particular a couple of wee...

What about something like or something like that?
That's possibly a useful tag
Modern times is just too broad, in my opinion
6:11 PM
@Scimonster The first one refers to our state of galut rather than innovation, no?
@Scimonster The second one is about relatively-new holidays. (Not objecting. Just categorizing for discussion's sake.)
@Scimonster The innovation in the third one is what, suburban sprawl?
@IsaacMoses 1) well, maybe. 2) yes, modern halachic innovations. :) 3) something applicable in the modern day that wasn't necessarily in the past
@Daniel the [history] tag's excerpt says something like that, but that's not quite the same topic imo
Okay, how do you guys get the nice tag links?
@scimonster, what would you say is the use case? What is the connection between the things that are tagged?
@scimonster write tag: inside the square brackets
@Daniel about new cases that would not have been dealt with historically
YEZ
YEZ
@Scimonster like this - [ then "tag" then : then "tag name here" then ]
6:21 PM
@scimonster weird. I have no explanation
Trying...
YEZ
YEZ
@Daniel @Scimonster This conversation is hard to follow without responding to each other as responses. To make it easier to follow what is a response to what, hover your cursor over the comment to which you want to reply, click on the arrow in the bottom right corner, and then reply.
@yez the chat functionality for mobile doesn't have the reply arrows
@yez I'm also on movile
YEZ
YEZ
@Daniel Aha. There must be some way to do it.
6:24 PM
@yez I think I asked a meta question about this once. Don't think there was a response
@yez manually @ing
@scimonster but then it doesn't link the conversation together
@Daniel like this?
@scimonster I can't tell. From the mobile site I cannot see which comments are linked
YEZ
YEZ
@Scimonster Yes - how did you do that?
did you manually enter the comment number?
6:30 PM
@YEZ no, I'm using the full view on mobile, but it's a pain
YEZ
YEZ
@Scimonster Well it's much better for me! :)
@yez ah I forgot about the comment number trick. That even allows you to reply to your own message
Unfortunately afaik it's not even possible to find the comment number of a particular chat message on mobile
@YEZ I didn't even know about replying until you told me. This is pretty much my first time using SE chat.
0
Q: Reply to chat messages on mobile

DanielIs there a way to reply to chat messages from the mobile chat site? I have only been able to manually @ ping people, but that doesn't link conversations together.

@Daniel @Scimonster magic formatting doesn't apply if the message is "preformatted", which kicks in if you have any carriage returns inside the message.
6:40 PM
16
Q: ChatSEy - An Android App for SE Chat

fredley Screenshot About Completely overhauled styles, including default and dark themes Reply to, star and flag messages Slide-out Sidebar for easy menu/star list access Tweaks to make typing easier (including Return -> Send, @username completion) The app works by injecting extra CSS and JS i...

Haven't tried it, so I can't speak to how good it is
@Daniel wouldn't help me anyways... I'm on iPad...
@IsaacMoses I guess we need to always add carriage returns, to avoid doing magic. ;)
5
Q: Is practical Kabbalah forbidden today?

user2110Is it forbidden to practice "practical" kabbalah (kabbalah maasit) today? If so, why? If it is forbidden to practice is it also forbidden to study?

YEZ
YEZ
10
Q: Does sorcery/black magic exist today?

GavrielThe Torah She'bicsav and Torah She'ba'al Peh discuss sorcery/necromancy/witchcraft. Assuming that those activities were actually harnessing some sort of supernatural power in order to perform supernatural activities, do such things exist today? I am mainly interested in explicit sources discussi...

6:56 PM
@YEZ Does this work?
YEZ
YEZ
@Daniel Way to go!
@IsaacMoses kinda clunky imo
@Scimonster I agree.
6:58 PM
@Scimonster Agreed
@IsaacMoses :P
YEZ
YEZ
@Scimonster Agreed.
I think that's a consensus.
@Shokhet If said story is about Satmar religious philosphy (which I'm not certain of), then it's on-topic here.
I'm trying to brainstorm more focused alternative tag concepts.
@IsaacMoses I picked up on that :)
@IsaacMoses do we need a more focused name if there's a descriptive excerpt? And don't forget it could be synonymized.
@Scimonster I think we need a more focused idea, with a name to match as best as possible
3
(or set of ideas)
7:05 PM
@IsaacMoses @Scimonster How about ?
I think next time I want to create a tag I'll bring it up on meta or here first. I should really know that, from my admin position on a wiki with a similar policy for templates and categories.
@Shokhet basically just a translation of , no?
@Scimonster Sounds like a good idea, for big ones at least.
@Shokhet That would seem to focus more on galut rather than innovation
@Scimonster @Daniel @YEZ there's an Android app called ChatSEy that fixes some of the most-glaring omissions of the mobile site. Don't know if there's an iOS version.
Oh, somebody linked that already. Sorry.
7:10 PM
BRB registering that as a meme
YEZ
YEZ
@IsaacMoses Can we start with a focus of what we feel needs a tag and then suggest names? Unless you are trying to do both at once. But I'm just not sure where the tag is lacking here to start the discussion.
@YEZ I'm trying to do both at once, using tag names as shorthand for scope ideas.
... but feel free to speak in complete sentences if you want. They say it's more comprehensible than shorthand.
@IsaacMoses they all seem rather clunky, and less obvious than just
@Scimonster Maybe
@IsaacMoses What makes you think that?
Yay, i can chat from the computer now. There was a tape recorder (!) blocking my internet access from the computer, but not the iPad. Go figure.
7:18 PM
@Shokhet That's how I'm used to hearing the term used, in opposition to, e.g. "bizman beit hamikdash"
@IsaacMoses So you've heard people using "zman hazeh" to mean the times of the Gemara?
GTG (not ignoring anyone!)
YEZ
YEZ
@Shokhet if it includes now and times of Gemara, then yes
@YEZ @Shokhet Including such a large range isn't quite practical.
@Scimonster That's why I'm suggesting that "post-war," specifically, could be worthwhile. A lot changed in the Jewish world after WWII.
YEZ
YEZ
@Scimonster That's what @IsaacMoses was getting at. Although it could bear its own discussion - there are a wide range of ramifications between pre and post Temple era.
7:23 PM
@IsaacMoses That's true enough.
@YEZ could well be useful in its own right, specifically for questions about stuff that's affected by our not having the Temple.
YEZ
YEZ
@IsaacMoses Yeah, that's what I was quasi-suggesting.
We do have , which is very related.
@IsaacMoses Living in Israel, the modern era isn't all about exile. ;)
YEZ
YEZ
@IsaacMoses Yes, although not redundant. A question about, for example, Chodosh/Yoshon without a Mikdash for Korban HaOmer could apply without being kicked out of Israel.
7:26 PM
@Scimonster There's a technical definition of the term that applies as long as the Beit Hamikdash is absent, AIUI.
@IsaacMoses Exile is also much broader than just questions pertaining to modern innovations.
@Shokhet What @IsaacMoses said. It is attempting to verify a story for the purpose of understanding Satmar religious philosophy, not unlike someone trying to verify what it says in a certain sefer they don't have a copy of. Because he didn't write it down it isn't Torah? Anyway, שיחת חולין של תלמידי חכמים צריכה לימוד - so just looking to understand/verify it seems to me to be about Judaism and Jewish Life and Learning
Side topic: what MY question posts could be tweeted under the irreverent hashtag #FirstWorldShailas, a la "First World Problems"
YEZ
YEZ
anyone know where I can find text of chiddushei haRitva on Shas online?
@IsaacMoses Our no-psak policy removes the first-person nature of questions which would really fit better, but we can still try.
YEZ
YEZ
7:40 PM
5
Q: tuna wrap in non-kosher restaurant

Desert StarIs there any way to eat a tuna wrap from a non-kosher restaurant, if I have full access to see their ingredients and packaging?

@IsaacMoses probably much of would qualify.
This one is a good one:
6
Q: Did I steal anything by eating from someone else's all-you-can-eat order?

haimI was eating in a restaurant with my friend, who ordered an "all-you-can-eat" menu item (so he could take as much food as he wants) and gave me some of the food to taste. I ate about a plateful. Normally, the "all-you-can-eat" option is only for the person who actually pays. Did I steal, and d...

@Scimonster Yes.
@IsaacMoses But this is more post-war era, worldwide: judaism.stackexchange.com/q/15809/5151
4
Q: What is the status of a modern-day city with regards to techum?

ScimonsterThe halacha of techum states that one cannot go more than 2000 amot outside of his place of rest. The place of rest can be the city in which he's spending Shabbat. With regards to t'chum, what constitutes a city? If there are two municipalities touching, is that one or two? On the flip side, if ...

That one applies regardless of exile status, worldwide, i.e. modern-times.
@Scimonster Yes.
@Scimonster ... and is arguably post-war, since the modern city is partially an artifact of postwar suburbanization
@IsaacMoses arguably
By post-war you mean post-WW2, right?
David Haney on September 16, 2014

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7:53 PM
@Scimonster Yes.
@IsaacMoses is that your favorite reply to me? :P (back on iPad... Sigh)
This article covers notable characters of Tron franchise, including all of its various cinematic, literary, video game adaptations and sequels. == Development == For the first film, Richard Rickitt explains that to "produce the characters who inhabit the computer world, actors were dressed in costumes that were covered in black-and-white computer circuitry designs....With coloured light shining through the white areas of their costumes, the resulting characters appeared to glow as if lit from within....optical processes were used to create all of the film's computerized characters..." Frederick...
@Scimonster I've agreed with the three statements so-replied.
 
1 hour later…
9:06 PM
@IsaacMoses true, but it still seems like a kind of arbitrary point in time
And most of the questions likely wouldn't have anything to do with ww2 which makes the tag sound a bit weird to my ear
9:26 PM
@Yishai If that was the case, the question should be worded in a more explicit manner.....he should say more about "religious philosophy" if that was his focus, IMHO.....at any rate, the question has been here since July of last year, so most people here seem to agree with you.

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