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12:55 AM
@YEZ, all, hi.
So? Just because everyone else does it doesn't mean we do it. Different communities had different customs — Shmuel Brin 2 days ago
@msh210 Howdy!
(^That's about Lubavitch.) My local Lubavitch rabbi likes to joke what everyone else does (custom-wise) is what Lubavitch does not do.
@YEZ do you (or anyone here) have an English sidur handy -- not ArtScroll?
@YEZ, mind if I clear your comments (& mine to you) under my new Sim Shalom question? Thanks for the idea (where to look for a difference), but it didn't pan out, so....
@msh210 Hirsch Siddur. Leaving for night seder in 30 seconds - what you need?
@msh210 Don't mind at all
@YEZ Never mind. Go learn. Kol tuv.
@msh210 If you still need in 2.5 hrs, you can ping me. I just put the siddur on the table here.
1:03 AM
@YEZ Thank you.
1:49 AM
Hi @Daniel. Enjoy Yeshivah. I was just last night discussing with my better half how fulfilling it would be to return to Yeshivah for a period of time.
@SethJ Howdy.
2:06 AM
@msh210 I've got a couple
@SethJ "Youth is wasted on the young."
@IsaacMoses Good evening. Can you look up, please, the translation of baruch shem k'vod malchuso l'olam vaed?
@msh210 Good evening. Yes. Stand by
3 translations:
@IsaacMoses A couple of sidurim, three translations. Must be Jewish.
2:10 AM
@msh210 :) Amarti me'at, ve'achshav, ani matchil la'asot harbeh
- The Hirsch Siddur: "Blessed be the Name of the glory of His kingdom in all the future which, though veiled, is certain."
Boy, I love R' Hirsch.
@IsaacMoses Yes. Is that a translation of his own German sidur, or merely someone else's translation based on his various works?
- The Koren Siddur, with translation by RDrLProf Sacks: "Blessed be the name of His glorious kingdom for ever and ever."
- The Metsudah Siddur: "Blessed [is His] Name, Whose glorious kingdom is forever and ever."
@IsaacMoses Thank you, thank you, and thank you again.
For a bit more completeness, IIRC (I don't have it here), ArtScroll gives "Blessed is the name of His glorious kingdom forever and ever.".
@msh210 hiya.
I wonder what R' Hertz has.
2:16 AM
@Isaac so they say.
@msh210 The title page says "Translation and Commentary by SAMSON RAPHAEL HIRSCH." R' Breuer's introduction to this English edition notes that the commentary was "originally published after the death of the author," so I guess some editing may have been by others, but it looks like the distinctive translation quoted above likely originated with RSRH
@IsaacMoses Okay, thanks.
@msh210 Correction: "Blessed is the name of His glorious kingdom for all eternity." (emphasis mine)
Out of curiosity (and I may ask this on-site), does the ArtScroll/R'Sacks translation ("Blessed is/be the name of His glorious kingdom for( )ever and ever.") make any sense to you? (Where "you" is anyone here.) Does His kingdom have a name? If so, is that name (to be) blessed?
Or R'Hirsch's. "Blessed be the Name of the glory of His kingdom": His kingdom's glory has a name? And that's to be blessed?
Metsudah's I like. "Blessed [is His] Name, Whose glorious kingdom is forever and ever". Basically making shem a construct noun with the rest of the sentence the somech.
One more: The Standard Machzor for the Day of Atonement, Sixth Edition, Bloch Publishing Company, New York, 1925: "Blessed be His name, whose glorious kingdom is for ever and ever."
2:24 AM
@IsaacMoses Thank you!
@msh210 You're quadruply welcome.
@IsaacMoses And indubitably delicious.
2:40 AM
@MonicaCellio, good evening!
@msh210 erev tov!
I just commented on your Sim Shalom question; I have the siddur but need to take care of a few other things tonight before I can attempt a side-by-side comparison. (I'm not fluent in Orthodox ma'ariv so I can't just scan for differences.)
@msh210 I think that the "Name of God" is supposed to mean something like "the conceptual handle we use to relate to God," or something. It's definitely more than just a label
@MonicaCellio Thanks.
@IsaacMoses Okay, but "Name of the glory of His kingdom"?
@msh210 BTW what I can compare it to is Artscroll -- that ok? I don't have another O siddur in the house.
@MonicaCellio Sounds good. (Different Orthodox sidurim have different versions anyway, as you know.)
2:49 AM
@msh210 Well, that's how the semichuyot seem to literally stack up. Maybe all the indirection is a sign of humility on the speaker's part.
@MonicaCellio And take your time. The question's not going anywhere (unless the community decides otherwise).
@msh210 yup, that's why I asked. Oh, I just remembered -- I have a Lubavich (?) - says nusah ha-Ari - too, but I assume that's not helpful. (There's a story there.)
@msh210 I doubt they will.
@IsaacMoses It is how they stack up. That's what I don't get. Metsudah's seems the most reasonable: blessed is the name of {the glory of His kingdom is forever}.
@MonicaCellio (I'd be curious to hear it.) Yes, nusach Ari sidurim are (usually) Lubavitch. And, yes, you're right: there will be more differences between that and Sim Shalom than between nusach Ashk'naz Orthodox sidurim and Sim Shalom.
@msh210 Definitely worth a question on Mi Yodeya.
@IsaacMoses Not sure what I want to ask. The very general "How do we understand this Hebrew sentence?", or perhaps something more specific like "How do we understand this translation?" or "What is God's kingdom's glory's name?". I'll think it over. Don't let that stop you (anyone) from beating me to it, of course.
2:55 AM
@msh210 "Why all the indirection?"
@IsaacMoses Or that -- which presupposes there is indirection, i.e. that we're not actually talking about God's kingdom's glory's name.
@msh210 I think the commentary in The World of Prayer on this may be relevant to your question. I have a Hebrew translation thereof here and am embarrassed to report that I'm having trouble getting a good enough understanding of it.
(A reasonable supposition, I should add.)
@IsaacMoses Is that the book by Rabbi Munk?
@msh210 ... which makes a question based on it, in turn, reasonable, especially if you make your uncertainty about it explicit. The multiple translations that imply it seem to be sufficient source to assume that it's at least viable.
@msh210 Yes
@IsaacMoses I'll try and remember to check whether my local shul has a copy. Thanks for the pointer.
@IsaacMoses Yeah, for sure.
2:59 AM
@msh210 Want a scan of the Hebrew?
Wait, @MonicaCellio, you said you have Sim Shalom at hand. If you have a chance and can be bothered, what's its translation for baruch shem k'vod malchuso l'olam vaed, please?
@IsaacMoses I suspect your Hebrew is better than mine, but I'll give it a shot, sire. Don't break any laws.
"sire". Fitting, O Patriarch, but I meant "sure".
@msh210 A page or two is Fair Use, no?
@IsaacMoses Sounds good to me. IANAL.
@msh210 "Praised be God's glorious sovereignty throughout all time".
@MonicaCellio Ah, so like ArtScroll/R'Sacks, except eliding "name of". Interesting. Thanks for checking.
3:05 AM
@msh210 you're welcome. (I hadn't checked your conversation here to see what it was similar to.)
@msh210 Looks legible. It seems to me that to really get what he's saying about B"Sh, you have to first read the preceding page or so on Shema.
@IsaacMoses It does look legible. Lemme try it. My modern Hebrew is weak. (I have trouble with R'Mirsky's writing.)
@IsaacMoses If he addresses the meaning of shem k'vod malchuso, I missed it. Which is entirely possible.
@msh210 the story is this: I came to a point in life where I realized that God and Judaism mattered and I needed to learn how to pray. But being timid and shy (stop laughing; I was :-) ) I thought I should get myself a siddur and work on this at home before venturing into the community where my incompetence would be obvious. So I went to the local Judaica shop, feeling intimidated (a) by the Orthodox man running the place and (b) the large number of siddurim on the shelves. [cont]
@msh210 I once gave a class on this topic. My basic thesis was that shem, kavod, and malchus are very conceptually linked terms. I don't know how many chat posts it would take to summarize it here but...
3:20 AM
Not knowing how to pick, I gravitated toward one that had nice large print. Aha, I said, I can read this without a magnifying glass -- I'll get this one. I didn't know that "nusach ha-Ari" meant anything.
(I'm not sure I knew the word "nusach", truth to tell.)
Not long after I started meeting with a tutor and she commented on it, which was my first clue that I had gotten anything unusual. Later I got others, but this one does have nice easy print to read from.
@MonicaCellio :-) The stereotype is that males don't ask strangers for directions.
@MonicaCellio Is it the "Annotated Edition"? That one does have nice, easy print. I like it a lot... now, if only it were my nusach.
@msh210 I know, and if a woman had been tending the shop that day I probably would have asked for help. I just felt profoundly out of place, like an imposter, because I wasn't Orthodox and, I dunno, I feared being judged for that or something. It's strange the impressions people carry around sometimes. I know better now, but I didn't then.
@YEZ Perhaps I should ask on-site and you can answer there. I'm planning to anyway, at least most likely.
@msh210 I think you're right, having given it another look. I was intimidated away from trying harder before by "המונותאיזם", but then I figured out what that was, and now I have the gist of that paragraph, and no, it doesn't seem to help.
@msh210 I don't think so (will check next time I'm downstairs). It's about 3" thick, though, presumably in large part because of the print size.
3:25 AM
@MonicaCellio The Annotated Edition, besides the nice, easy print, has clear directions, a compilation of laws and practices, and even pictures (how to hold a lulav, how to don a talis). Plus, a Yodeyan was on the editorial team.
@YEZ Got any pointers to sources? I'm disappointed that R' Hirsch didn't put anything in the commentary to go with the provocative translation
@msh210 oh, which Yodeyan?
@MonicaCellio The top-scoring one.
@IsaacMoses oh, nice.
@IsaacMoses I suspect l'olam = hidden future (as in neelam) and vaed = certain future (as in... beats me).
3:26 AM
@msh210 ooh. Nice. Sounds right.
A: Why so many vocalized shvas in Siddur Tehillat Hashem?

AlexAs I understand it, the markings of these shevas follow the rules given by R' Shlomo Zalman Hanau, an important 18th-century grammarian. In his system, every sheva following a tenuah kallah (a "light" vowel, i.e., one that substitutes for a sheva or a chataf vowel) is vocalized; examples include ...

@IsaacMoses thanks! I hadn't realized that he'd (a) been involved and (b) written about that here.
@IsaacMoses I can look at my notes and see how many independent sources there were, but most of my shiurim are putting a lot together.
meaning they wouldn't be so meaningful in a vacuum
2 hours later…
11 hours later…
4:28 PM
@msh210 Y"K. Will be tweeted tomorrow morning.
2 hours later…
6:30 PM
@IsaacMoses B'ruchim tihyu. Now I just hope someone answers it!
@IsaacMoses Any update? Last I saw, he said he was planning a procedure for yesterday which would get him out of sakana. Did that happen? Is he out of sakana? I don't see anything at the first page of reddit.com/user/LazerA, and do not follow /r/judaism.
7:22 PM
@msh210 Other than what's in reddit.com/r/Judaism/comments/1y0g9r/…, which you and HodofHod were both good enough to post in here, I don't have any other update. I don't follow /r/judaism very closely myself.
7:55 PM
How come some people not in the room come up on the ping list and others do not?
@YEZ I believe it depends on how recently they posted something in the room. (But don't quote me. ;-)
@JonEricson Case study in this room- monicaCellio, who posted last 17 hours ago, comes up, but Shmuel, who posted 15 hours ago, does not.
@JonEricson nevermind, shmuel does. Just his name is different than his chat name so I missed it. Will continue testing.
@YEZ For science! ;-)
@YEZ Clicking "leave" may affect this behavior.
@JonEricson My test is further non-conclusive because it could be being in the room is an automatic include, and she is in the room. I guess I need to review my scientific method.
8:11 PM
@IsaacMoses I don't recall hearing that. I'm looking for an MSO post that gives the exact criteria.
@msh210 I don't either. Just guessing.
I know you can always ping someone who said something in the same room by linking to his post.
@msh210 ...thus.
No matter how long ago it was.
Other than that, I thought the criterion was time since the person spoke. But I can't find it anywhere.
@msh210 If I ping someone who doesn't come up on my list, will it still ping them?
@YEZ I'm pretty sure it won't. Mods, though, have a way of doing that.
The chat FAQ list says "Note that you can only mention @someone who has been in the room at some point." but I think it's more restrictive than that: the person has to have spoken (not just been) in the room recently (not just at some point). I may be wrong.
@msh210 ... Incidentally, any site's moderator (not just Mi Yodeya -- any Stack Exchange site except, I think, Stack Overflow and Meta Stack Overflow) can ping that way. So a History mod can wander in here and ping anyone who's been active on any Stack Exchange site.
8:47 PM
@msh210 I'm imagining some random mod waltzing in here and just pinging away at random. You mods have such power.
9:04 PM
@YEZ It would be extra-bizarre if the pings were issued, as you seem to suggest, to a 3/4 rhythm.
@IsaacMoses I was referring more to the subjects of the pinging, not the rate of pinging. But, yes, that would add to the surrealism of the event if they would be done to a beat.
@msh210 I believe I've pinged visitors who I've seen walk into a room, even before they said something, and without using mod powers. Or, at least, their names have @-completed; whether they got the pings I don't know.
(Sorry I was here but silent for a while. I am fighting with a recalcitrant web service. Let me rephrase: I'm trying to write a RESTful web service for the first time and it's not going well. So I was busy in another browser.)
9:22 PM
@YEZ The subjects of the ping would be waltzing?
Woo, The Workplace just graduated.
@DoubleAA No I meant the second comment to be taken in context of the first. The subjects of the pinging would be random, and the moderator would be waltzing. But if you could arrange for the subjects of the pinging to be waltzing also, הרי זה משובח.
@YEZ we'll need to see video, of course. Or maybe there's something you can do with custom JavaScript and the gravatars. :-)
@MonicaCellio @IsaacMoses @DoubleAA Are you sure we're allowed to be having this discussion now? judaism.stackexchange.com/q/35118/4794.
@YEZ That's how I took it. Isaac referred to your use of Waltzing when he said 3/4 time. You told Isaac the referent of what he applied to pinging (ie 'waltzing') should be applied to the subjects of the ping.
@YEZ Certainly. Just wait to see how much more ridiculous this place becomes in when the real Adar-festivities take off :)
9:32 PM
@DoubleAA I guess I misunderstood Isaac - I assumed the pinging was going to be to a 3/4 rhythm. I would prefer if the waltzing remain random.
The waltz is a smooth, progressive ballroom and folk dance in time, performed primarily in closed position. History There are several references to a sliding or gliding dance—a waltz—from the 16th century, including the representations of the printer H.S. Beheim. The French philosopher Montaigne wrote of a dance he saw in 1580 in Augsburg, where the dancers held each other so closely that their faces touched. Kunz Haas (of approximately the same period) wrote, "Now they are dancing the godless Weller or Spinner." "The vigorous peasant dancer, following an instinctive knowledge of t...
Waltzing is in 3/4 time by definition
@DoubleAA I don't even want to know how you produced that so quickly.
@DoubleAA What's up with the animated mixed dancing in Bam?
@IsaacMoses They're married, don't worry
and she's tehorah.
@DoubleAA TMI
9:35 PM
@DoubleAA Her hair doesn't appear to be covered. I've never seen a sheitl like that.
@IsaacMoses or maybe one of them is cross-dressing and getting the jump on Purim.
And chiba b'rabbim...
Can't you see the hanging mechitzot between each couple?
Q: Is cross-dressing permitted on Purim and if so why?

noneAs part of dressing in costume on Purim is a person allowed to put on clothes normally worn by the opposite gender? If so, where does this heter come from in the face of the biblical prohibition against cross-dressing in Deuteronomy 22:5?

@YEZ Nah. There's a Mechitza between us and them.
The fourth wall is the imaginary "wall" at the front of the stage in a traditional three-walled box set in a proscenium theatre, through which the audience sees the action in the world of the play. The idea of the fourth wall was made explicit by philosopher and critic Denis Diderot and spread in 19th-century theatre with the advent of theatrical realism, which extended the idea to the imaginary boundary between any fictional work and its audience. Speaking directly to or otherwise acknowledging the audience through a camera in a film or television program, or through this imaginary wal...
9:38 PM
@DoubleAA Whoa. You gotta tell the posek community about this line of heteir. I wonder if there could be applications in Eruv-building.
@IsaacMoses I think if you look into certain communities, you'll already find rabbanim relying on imaginary walls, as well as many other imaginary things.
@IsaacMoses Reminds me of OC 362:5
9:51 PM
@DoubleAA Thanks for the link.
@DoubleAA Ah, yes. The effectiveness of Fourth Wall does depend on the audience's not being explicitly aware of its existence.
Do not try to create a mechitza by staging one of those post-Modern plays by Stoppard or Becket, vel sim.
10:08 PM
@msh210 I hope you appreciate the effort that went into distilling this into an answer - judaism.stackexchange.com/a/35673/4794
even if you don't like the answer
@YEZ Y"K! The building blocks are great. I think the answer would profit from a bit more in the conclusion, tying them all together and perhaps proposing an interpretive translation of the line using them.
@IsaacMoses Oy after all that I forgot to go back to the question? I'll have to look at it again later.
@IsaacMoses I thought I did that in the second to last paragraph.
@YEZ You did. I think it could be expanded to explain a bit more what the whole concept means.
@YEZ What does it mean that the perception is being more manifest in reality? Why is that something we want?
11:16 PM
@MonicaCellio Oh. I take back that part, then.
@YEZ I can only imagine. Y'yasher kochacha! But, like @IsaacMoses said....
11:35 PM
@DoubleAA That page loaded really, really slowly and slowed down my entire browser. I wound up killing the browser's process actually. What kind of file is embedded there?
@msh210 I had no trouble loading it.
11:52 PM
@IsaacMoses Perhaps I'm on a slower connection. Perhaps anything.

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