V'dibarta Bam

@SethJ my minyan said obinu malkeinu also

Daniel

@MoriDoweedhYa3gob Nusach ashkenaz says avinu malkeinu at ne'ila

3:46 AM

@Daniel Interesting. My Shul's rabbi actually used the word "override".

@Daniel we said it all taifloth

@Daniel (@MoriDoweedhYa3gob) I was going to say what Daniel said.

@SethJ ah

Daniel

@SethJ with respect to fasting or with respect to selichot?

miteiman.com/…

for those who are sitll in the spirit of yim kippur you can watch taht

:) enjoy

first video

4:05 AM

@Daniel with respect to the nature of the day. Ie., everything, IINM. "We don't fast on Shabbas, but we fast on Yom Kippur - it's a Shabbas Shabbason." He didn't discuss the Tefillah, but my previous understanding is that it's an all-encompassing statement (I've heard it before, not from him, though).

@SethJ did u watch that sali7oth vid??

sheeeeeeeee

da best

4:26 AM

@Mori no.

4:36 AM

Ok folks, post-Y"K headache solutions, and go!

(I've had good food, coffee, about 30 ounces of non-coffee fluids, and two Advil. Still have a headache.)

4:54 AM

@SethJ Take two more advil. Doctors I know socially have told me informally that you can take 4 occasionally without hurting yourself

5:39 AM

Does the Jewish fast last for 24 hours?

@Islam: roughly.

@msh210 Is it without water?

@Islam: yes. Except for people for whom that could be life-threatening.

we have a hadith on this : When the Prophet came to al-Madinah he found that the Jews observed the fast of Ashura. He enquired about this and was told that it was the day on which God had delivered the Children of Israel from the enemy and Moses used to keep a fast on it as an expression of gratitude to the Almighty. The Prophet thereupon remarked that "Moses has a greater claim upon me than upon you," and he fasted on that day and instructed his followers to do the same.
But how are now the dates different from the Islamic Ashura?

Have the dating systems changed, Ideally we should be observing these fasts the same day together?

@Islam, ask your local imam.

2

5:44 AM

No I had asked daniel , and he said that there were some adjustments in the Jewish calender

"the day on which God had delivered the Children of Israel from the enemy and Moses used to keep a fast on it as an expression of gratitude" sounds like no Jewish fast I know of.

to align it with seasons

its Yom Kippur

HodofHod

@Islam No such thing happened on Yom Kippur, though.

And Yom Kippur is not (primarily) a fast of gratitude.

Your explanation of it, which I just quoted, doesn't sound like Yom Kippur, and you're claiming the date doesn't maybe Yom Kippur's. so i doubt it's Yom Kippur.

s/maybe/match/

@Islam Yom Kippur is the Day of Atonement, although virtually all our holidays are in some way connected to the Exodus. @msh210 that could be what the Hadith is talking about. Maybe.

5:50 AM

@SethJ, anything's possible. If @Islam wants an interpretation of the hadith, e.g. to know what Jewish holiday it refers to, I'd think an expert in hadiths would the person to ask. Hence my earlier advice to consult his imam.

@msh210 But what if the Jewish calenders have changed in the mean time?

זכר ליציאת מצרים

We might be able to help, too, of course, but i think an expert in Hadith scholarship would be a better bet.

This is what I want to know

@Islam then ice cream has no bones.

3

5:51 AM

@msh210 I fully agree.

HodofHod

....especially the crust.

@Islam, the Jewish calendar hasn't changed (much) in millennia. The change @Daniel most likely referred to is the required leap-month.

Islamic and Judaic are both Lunar systems , I guess they are no longer in sync ?

and what has caused this, is this only the leap year ?

Pesah must be in the spring, so we have an occasional leap-month to regulate that.

and which system did the Bani Israelis used?

5:54 AM

The Hebrew calendar is not purely lunar. See the Wikipedia article on the Hebrew calendar.

They were commanded to observe Passover in the spring.

You figure it out.

Hebrew calendar

The Hebrew or Jewish calendar (, ha'luach ha'ivri) is a lunisolar calendar used today predominantly for Jewish religious observances. It determines the dates for Jewish holidays and the appropriate public reading of Torah portions, yahrzeits (dates to commemorate the death of a relative), and daily Psalm readings, among many ceremonial uses. In Israel, it is used for religious purposes, provides a time frame for agriculture and is an official calendar for civil purposes, although the latter usage has been steadily declining in favor of the Gregorian calendar. The calendar used by Jews has...

Do all jews agree to the same calender?

HodofHod

@msh210 It was also (according to Wikipedia) in a period of transition from observational to mathematical during Muhammad's life.

Karaites don't. But from our perspective they are heretics.

5:56 AM

@HodofHod that's a different issue

@SethJ So what system do they use? and do samaritans also use the same?

Find a Karaite site and ask them.

@HodofHod ... in that the structure of the calendar with respect to the moon and sun did not change

Or a Samaritan site.

Samaritans are the group I believe which claim that they are native bani Israelis, not coming from foriegn lands. So they may have some old bani israeli culture preserved?

5:59 AM

They may have some old heretical culture preserved.

They may even have some old nonheretical culture preserved. Surely they kept some things right.

@Islam Are you trying to dig for evidence that some group of Jews more authentic to the ones you're talking to maintain or maintained a purely lunar calendar without adjustments with respect to the seasons? Because that's a dead end, in various ways.

@Islam There were heretics immediately after the exodus. Why would you assume that anything they have that disagrees with us must be pure just because they claim to be descendants of ancient Israelites who were spared the exile of the diaspora?

@msh210 I'm not saying they didn't (they worship the G-d of our forefathers, don't they?). But their tradition as a whole is at odds with ours.

@SethJ Also I have read that they pray a prayer which is strikingly similar to the Islamic prayer? Does any Jewish group pray in the way a Muslim prays in Salah?

@Islam, who's more authentic, the Sunnis or the Shiites? That's what you're asking here in a way.

6:06 AM

@SethJ I know that was rhetorical, but dude, are you really looking to open that can of worms here?

...especially when you're talking to someone named Ali?

@Isaac, actually I thought this whole discussion was kind of wormy already. I was trying to throw it away.

@SethJ No, I was not asking that . I just wanted to know how the calenders went out of sync and are there any groups which continue to observe the traditional calender?

:-)

I keep the traditional calendar.

@Islam, the point is we have the traditional calendar. They broke from tradition.

6:08 AM

@Islam I thought there was a chat room set up somewhere for explorations of this type

They. Are. Heretics.

= They. Reject. Tradition.

@SethJ And they probably keep a lunisolar calendar too, so whatever

@Isaac ask Blue Thread dude. I watched one of his videos once. It was bizarre for surprising reasons.

@Islam The Jews, in the time of Mohammed, were observing the Traditional lunisolar calendar. We do the same today. This is not something that has changed. We are in sync with our ancestors. If you are interested in matching up Muslim history with that,

28 mins ago, by msh210

@Islam, ask your local imam.

@IsaacMoses He wont know about it

There is already very scarce literature on Judeo-Islamic issues

6:15 AM

@Isaac it was like watching a Gushie explain chiastic Pesukim (it wasn't on that topic, just reminded me of that type of lecture), but totally backwards.

@SethJ I think I'd sooner go for the Gushie video. Actually, I occasionally listen to exactly that kind of lecture on the parasha on KMTT.

And I dont think it the dates matter much as the Bani Israelis used an observation method, if this current modern method would have been interpolated during those times , then they would have different set of dates

(Translated divrei torah by Rav Yonatan Grossman, if that means anything to you. Very into literary structures.)

@Isaac, what kind, chiastic or backwards? Or both? ;-)

Yup.

@SethJ I've heard him identify chiasms at least twice

6:19 AM

Been to his Shi'ur. It was very popular in my day.

@SethJ I'm sure I would be completely lost listening to it in Hebrew.

If you were 18 and spent all day surrounded by Hebrew speakers, you could handle it.
This guy: http://m.ynet.co.il/Article.aspx?id=4180732

@SethJ I'll take that as a compliment. Oh, he's got a PhD? Not surprised.

Looks almost the same - a little more beard, a little more gray, a little more...home cooked meals? But definitely him. Glad to see he's made a Lishmah career out of a unique talent.

@Isaac at least in my day he was also very much aware that his packed room was equally divided among native and non-native Hebrew speakers.

You had to get there early to get a seat, btw.

@SethJ Well, that helps. I was just afraid of the lit-technical jargon

6:29 AM

You pick it up.

@SethJ OK; that tears it. I'm making 'aliya as soon as I can.

(For a broad value of "can" and without intent to make a neder.)

@Isaac. Glad I could help with that decision (though I hope this doesn't land me in trouble with your better half).

@SethJ Decision made years ago. Better half taken into account in "can," above. :)

Toodle-oo. Gut yontiff and gut yahr. Any problem posts, don't hesitate to flag.

@msh210 You too!

6:34 AM

@Isaac you realize making 'Aliyah won't turn you 18 again and land you back in yeshivah, right?

@msh210 Are you expecting any?

("Gut yontiff" a traditional blessing for tonight; I hope to be back in chat before Sukos.) @IsaacMoses no.

@SethJ 18 - no; yeshiva - who knows?

@Isaac on the point about yeshivah, I suppose that's possible, although that might get me and you in bigger trouble with your better half. ;-)

@SethJ Depends when we're talking about and for how much of the day.

6:38 AM

@Isaac side point: I just took more Advil, thank you. I also discovered that the pasta sauce was left out and put it away. Guess this headache was for a reason.

@SethJ yehi ratzon sheyihyeh tipul zeh lirfu-a

@Isaac if you can work out an arrangement like that, please have your better half talk to mine about making it work for us, too. ;-)

@Isaac :) thanks.

Ok, gonna try to head to bed now. G'timezone.