V'dibarta Bam

7:00 PM

@IsaacMoses Right, so I support the lone downvote (yours, I believe?) because the information is still based on an incorrect assumption.

shulem

hello seth

Daniel

As a side note, if I propose a tag synonym, does anybody get notified of that?

shulem

can I discuss with you what you wrote

Monica Cellio

@SethJ I've gotten pretty tired from this one, compounded by (a) not recognizing some of the sources and (b) reading the "lizman/lezman" thing as misplaced pedantry (is he arguing over transliteration of a shva?). All that said, the current form is more readable than the last time I saw it, so thanks @SethJ.

shulem

or am i interrupting a conversation

Seth J

7:02 PM

@MonicaCellio Thanks.

Daniel

@shulem We're discussing Seth's edit, so this is a great place for you to jump in

Isaac Moses

@SethJ I wish the site mechanics offered a way to agree with a downvote ...

Seth J

@shulem No, jump in.

shulem

thanks

ok about the down voting.

there should be an extra button for the first to down vote without giving his name

Seth J

@shulem Don't get hung up on downvotes.

shulem

7:03 PM

and give a reason

Seth J

@shulem I agree that everyone should give a reason for downvoting (unless it's patently obvious, such as spam or unless someone is agreeing with an earlier-expressed point of disagreement).

shulem

ok before someone downvotes if he doesnt understand what is written he should ask

Double AA

@Daniel There is a list where people can check all proposed synonyms but no notifications that I know of

Daniel

@shulem That was @IsaacMoses, and he identified himself and explained his downvote

shulem

i always reply if asked

i can understand why most people dont understand my post

try it your self once youve understood what i have written

look at my first draft

Isaac Moses

7:05 PM

@shulem You are welcome to join the discussion about that here: meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/144/…

shulem

you must remember i am writing with prior knowledge of what i am talking about

Daniel

@shulem This is your fundamental problem. You should be writing for an audience without prior knowledge

shulem

well i cant help that

Seth J

@shulem No, a downvote can be reversed. I have already expressed to you that I generally don't downvote myself until there has been some effort to get the poster to edit, but I fully understand those who do.

shulem

as i said once you have understood what i have written

Daniel

7:06 PM

@shulem Yes you can. That's what we all do here.

shulem

look again at my first draft

Isaac Moses

@shulem Yes, you can. By writing clearly and citing your sources

shulem

i always cite sources

Seth J

@shulem This fills me with so much hurt, I cannot even begin to express this to you.

Isaac Moses

@Daniel Jinx

shulem

7:07 PM

i cite sources much more than shalom ever does

what hurts you please

Seth J

@shulem You seem to believe that only you are privy to all truth.

@shulem You keep on repeating this fallacy. You do not accept criticism because you think you are all-knowing, and we are all know-nothings.

shulem

i am quoting others all the time. If i know what others say and you dont

then i am the only one privy to the truth

Daniel

@shulem In any case, we all understand two different possible interpretations of your answer about lizman/lazman, and they are both downvote-worthy

shulem

i have answered more than anyone so far

Isaac Moses

@shulem Anything you know that you don't say is 100% useless to others in understanding and evaluating your answer.

shulem

7:09 PM

correct therefore please ask

give me a chance to explain

dont downvote without asking if you dont understand

i said this when i came in

Isaac Moses

I think you're incorrectly using literal piece-by-piece translation from English in evaluating the correctness of the Hebrew. In Hebrew, we attach the definite article ('ha') when we're referring to a specific instance of a non-proper noun, even in cases in which the "the" in English would not be used. Shimon bM's answer provides a bunch of examples from the Torah. — Isaac Moses 5 hours ago

You have never addressed this objection.

Daniel

@shulem No, that is not how it works. If you give an un-understandable answer, that should be downvoted

And what we don't understand has been clearly articulated to you by @IsaacMoses

shulem

I was not explaining rules of dikduk but why the MB thought like that

Isaac Moses

@shulem But he couldn't have, since it's wrong.

shulem

ok if thats how you want it

Seth J

7:11 PM

@shulem I can assure you that, despite what you think, there are many people here as knowledgeable as you. Based on the answers you've provided, I would guess that there are certain individuals here who are more knowledgeable than you.

shulem

i wrote that sometimes brochos dont follow dikduk rules

maybe you havent seen my revised post

Seth J

@shulem You are either way too smart than any of us here, or you are way too stubborn.

shulem

i am not stubborn. nothing can be further from the truth

Isaac Moses

@shulem Your reasoning is actually based on a "dikduk rule" that happens to be incorrect.

shulem

i have often said even on here like to fred

that he was right

i am moideh all hoemem

hoemmes

My reasoning was not based on the rules of dikduk

Isaac Moses

7:14 PM

@shulem So, what was it, the rules of English?

shulem

Fred is not on often but he talks sense

Daniel

@shulem "The English translation of lizman hazeh is "to this [point in] time". The translation of lazman hazeh shortened from l'hazman hazeh is to this 'the' time. Therefore the first is preferable"

Monica Cellio

@shulem if you were a new user making your first few posts and not meeting our norms, that would be different. People have explained to you many times what we are looking for in answers. "Ask me if you don't understand" isn't how it works; answers here (on any Stack Exchange site) are expected to stand on their own, not relying on access to the author. [cont]

3

shulem

no as i said maybe brochos are not based on the rules of dikduk

Monica Cellio

I don't think you appreciate the timeframe here; we have answers that are years old and we can't ask some of those authors for clarification any more. Your answers will be around for years too. Make them count.

shulem

7:15 PM

so ask me straight away

Daniel

@shulem Right. Clearly they aren't because we have this bracha. That's why the question was asked.

shulem

if no reply withing 24 hours down vote

Daniel

The question is, "Why is it this way?"

Seth J

@shulem Yeah, I like your new edit, by the way. It actually addresses the question.

shulem

thanks that what i like

i mean i like discussion not just a downvote and goodbye

Isaac Moses

7:16 PM

@shulem What is "Therefore the first is preferable" if not a statement of dikduk? A statement of gut feel about language?

shulem

yes a statement of gut feeling

i cant think of any other reason

Monica Cellio

@shulem you expect everybody to keep track of that? For all answers on the site? Most of us do hold off on downvotes if we think the problem can be fixed, but repeated failure to learn makes some of us less patient. (And to forestall the complaint: I haven't voted on your lezman answer.)

Isaac Moses

... and are you privy to the intuition of the M"B?

shulem

i have got downvotes even before the ink was dry

Monica Cellio

Discussion is meant to clarify and supplement; it is not supposed to be a required part of every answer. Nobody has time for that.

3

shulem

7:17 PM

no to my own intuition which is most likely the same as his

Isaac Moses

That you can't think of any other reason doesn't mean that the one you can think of is right, especially if it's based purely on intuition that happens to contradict the pattern seen in the Torah.

shulem

I am sorry Miss Monica i cant help it if you dont know the laws of niddahg

Daniel

@shulem But that doesn't answer the question. He just "had an intuition" and so he said it should be pronounced that way?

shulem

no i based my intuition on something

and its not just the MB he is following many many others

Monica Cellio

@shulem I know the ones that apply to me. You brought it up, not me, and you have to admit that this special pre-marriage thing is a special case?

shulem

7:19 PM

well I am sorry that you were not aware of it.

there has to be some prior knowledge here

but you asked and didnt just downvote

now you have learned something

which if you just downvoted you would not have

Monica Cellio

@shulem I suspect I am not the only one who didn't make the connection between what you were saying and the timing of an aufruf. But you're allowed to be cryptic; you should just expect that people who can't understand your answers aren't going to upvote them.

Daniel

@shulem There is some prior knowledge. The people who are using this site are quite knowledgeable. If the regular users of this site don't understand your posts, then of course nobody else does

shulem

but i am not aware of everyones knowledge and i doubt if its all the same

so please do like Miss monica and ask

Daniel

@shulem, also for those of us who do know that particular rule of niddah, it still seemed disconnected from your answer

shulem

believe me i know what i am writing

Monica Cellio

7:21 PM

And every one of us, including you @shulem, has incomplete prior knowledge. The folks here are pretty smart and pretty well-informed. Nobody knows everything.

shulem

first of all its not my own torah

if you still dont understand please ask again

Seth J

@shulem I've made some more edits. (@IsaacMoses and @MonicaCellio)

shulem

yes but i can know what nobody knows

Daniel

@SethJ I still think there isn't really an answer in there

maybe I'm just missing it

shulem

imagine would i have to start explaining what a nidda is

i am sure you have non jew who wouldnt understand

there has to be some limit on what can explain

Daniel

7:23 PM

@shulem No, you have to explain your logic. You can assume that we know the ideas that you cite, but it is unclear how you get from one point to another

2

shulem

well i will try to explain here.

Isaac Moses

(@shulem, I'd suggest that you avoid using the title "Miss" for women whose status and preference you don't know. In many contemporary contexts, that's considered offensive.)

shulem

ok ok

a woman should not be a niddah at her wedding

Charles Koppelman

@shulem If you have trouble explaining an answer so the person who asks the question understands, then you aren't answering the question.

shulem

is that right

so one has to do all possible to stop her becoming a niddah

Daniel

7:24 PM

@shulem It's unfortunate, but it happens every so often

And there is no real "problem" with it

shulem

the idea of the aufruf is to stop her becoming a niddah

does that make sense

Daniel

yes

That makes much more sense

shulem

thanks

Daniel

Your answer did not make that clear at all

shulem

the rambam is not to happy about being a nidda at the wedding

Seth J

7:25 PM

@shulem If you got an immediate downvote, that's because someone noticed it right away and thought it was a poor answer.

shulem

so a woman gets excited before the wedding which makes her a nidda

so to 'stop' the excitement you make the aufruf

thats it in a nutshell

Daniel

@shulem This is a clear argument. You should put that into the answer

shulem

first of all you cant downvote a sefer

thats kefira

you can downvote me but not an important sefer

well i am pleased you understand now

Isaac Moses

@shulem There is no such thing here as a downvote on a sefer or a person.

There are downvotes on posts.

shulem

if you downvote that post you are downvoting a sefer

Isaac Moses

7:28 PM

Nope.

shulem

well i cant be party to that

Daniel

@shulem It is not kefira to downvote a post that incomprehensibly references a sefer

2

shulem

you should ask first

to have it explained

Daniel

The downvote isn't to the sefer, it's to the post

shulem

or look it up yourself

i provided a perfect link

Daniel

7:29 PM

@shulem The link should be supplemental. Unnecessary to the answer

2

The answer should be completely self-contained

shulem

yes i agree. but before you downvote ask and look at the link

Seth J

@shulem You might know what you are thinking, but you do not always seem to know what you are writing. And if you cannot convey in writing what you are thinking, then nobody will know what you mean and you will be downvoted.

Charles Koppelman

@shulem By answering, you're making the first step - that means that you are putting your words out there. The onus is then on YOU to ensure that it is clearly explaining the idea you are trying to express. There is no onus on, e.g., @SethJ.

2

shulem

dont you realise i have been on for a week and still cant gauge how much i have to say in a post

Isaac Moses

@shulem Worry less about amount and more about clarity

Charles Koppelman

7:30 PM

@shulem also, learning how to format helps a great deal.

shulem

i do my best i assure you

i spend quite a lot of time on my posts

and write and rewrite them often

but its not good enough

Isaac Moses

@shulem Just hit the <enter> key twice after every three sentences

shulem

maybe one day i will learn

Isaac Moses

(as a start)

Monica Cellio

@shulem no, a downvote is for an answer (or question), which may talk about or even quote from a sefer, but that's not a vote on the source. It's a vote on your use or explanation of it, or sometimes its applicability. (It's also not a vote on you, only on what you write.)

shulem

7:31 PM

or you will learn to understand them

i am on a mobile that makes things difficult

no i dont take anything personally

so i think as i wrote before

Isaac Moses

@shulem Don't count on the Internet changing its understanding habits

shulem

if i am downvoted for no reason and no comment

and not asked will just delete the post

posts that have been on and recieved many downvoted will also be deleted

Charles Koppelman

@shulem - We want you to get your idea across. If you're going to complain each time, no one will help you any more and you will ONLY get downvotes. Why do you care more about your reputation than about expressing your ideas?

shulem

its not fair on boring your listeners with things they dont to hear

i complain that i am not asked to explain

Isaac Moses

@shulem These policies of yours seem to indicate that you care more about your points than you do about spreading Torah

shulem

7:34 PM

this is a very valid complaint

no i dont call spreading torah if its not understood

Daniel

@shulem Show me one downvoted answer of yours with no comments asking for clarification

shulem

i cant at the moment

my question on the daf i understand doesnt belong her

here i will wait till the end of the week when the daf gets there

Seth J

@shulem YOU are the one writing the answers. If you want to be understood, then make your answers understandable.

shulem

if still no

Isaac Moses

If you get a commentless downvote, you can certainly request feedback, but you should probably start from the assumption that it's because your post is not written clearly, and try to rewrite it in a manner as close to what you would find in an English publication as you can.

shulem

7:36 PM

i do my best believe me

Daniel

@shulem If this is your best, then you can expect to continue to receive downvotes

But since you say you have been to university, I don't believe that this is your best

shulem

well then you should write it in the rules no downvote unless understood what was written and decided it wasnt good

Daniel

I think you can do better

shulem

i have been to university and written six books

not on jewish subjects

Daniel

@shulem Why should we write that in the rules? It is a good thing for answers that are unable to be understood get downvoted

Isaac Moses

7:37 PM

@shulem The rules are mostly concerned with making the content good, not with points.

shulem

no it isnt unless the person downvoting understands what is written

Charles Koppelman

@shulem The site is supposed to be l'shem shamayim... judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/9445/…

shulem

i said he should ask give 24 hours if no response then down

Isaac Moses

If you have written books, and they had paragraphs in them, then big blocks of text are not your best.

shulem

its not lshem shomaim to downvote for no good reason

Daniel

7:38 PM

@shulem I think you are misunderstanding what the reason for the points are. The votes are to indicate how good an answer is, not how correct it is.

They have nothing to do with you

You don't get anything for having a high rep score here

shulem

that is another matter i have already said so far

Charles Koppelman

@Daniel I'd argue that downvotes are for bad answers and upvotes are for correct answers

shulem

i have only given one upvote so far

Daniel

@CharlesKoppelman fair

Charles Koppelman

but an upvote can only be on a non-bad answer

shulem

7:39 PM

i am not asking for upvotes

i am asking to stop downvotes

Daniel

@shulem I hate to say this to you, but your answers are bad answers

Not because they are wrong

but because we can't understand them

Fred

@shulem Sometimes it is better to sacrifice timeliness of the answer for clarity. There have been times in the past when I spent hours on an answer before posting, when I could have given roughly the same answer almost immediately but in inferior form and without careful citations. Usually, there is not an urgent need for an answer.

shulem

once it is downvoted others dont look at it with an open minbd

Isaac Moses

Stop asking anything about votes. It's silly. The votes don't matter.

2

shulem

oh hello fred

you can tell then the truth

Fred

7:41 PM

@shulem Hi, Shulem.

shulem

have i agreed you were right

tell them the truth

they dont believe me

Fred

@shulem About the Maharsha? Yes.

shulem

yes thats right

didnt i say you were right but gave my own pshat

which you didnt come back obn

on

i believe you know how to learn

tell me how do you find my posts

Fred

@shulem Yes, that was gracious of you. Unfortunately, I can only be on the site sporadically.

shulem

a real pity we need people like you

Fred

7:43 PM

@shulem They sometimes appear hurried.

shulem

do you understand them

Fred

L'fi aniyus da'ti, a sine qua non of answering Torah related questions is that all steps be take to ensure the answer be maximally understood by the audience. Sometimes, that means spending extra time

2

shulem

yes but i would like your answer

my first draft

Fred

@shulem I usually understand your posts, but I have to spend considerable mental energy sometimes.

shulem

good. thats what i like to hear

i think you said t

Fred

7:44 PM

@shulem Well, it's good in a way - it means there is substance in your answers.

shulem

for tora one has to use mental energy

that is why i come up with chiddushim

no one else does

Fred

@shulem But you should allow people to spend their mental energy on the substance of the material.

2

shulem

you didnt read my previous conversation

you just came in

i do try very hard

Fred

@shulem I read a good deal of the back and forth.

shulem

and you understand it

do you check the sources

Isaac Moses

7:46 PM

@Fred Exactly. If you hide good Torah ideas in bad prose, you're putting up an unnecessary wall around the ideas

Fred

@shulem I don't always have time to check the sources.

shulem

so you understand what i write without having to

Isaac Moses

Expend the energy on the writing side to make the ideas as accessible as possible.

shulem

thats what i try to do

Fred

@shulem I am really grateful when a poster includes thorough citations and explains the sources outright.

shulem

7:47 PM

i do my best

a pity you cant comment on them more

Fred

@shulem I've noticed - your posts have been improving.

shulem

well i am being interrogated daily here

maybe you will find more mistakes

thanks

have you ever found that i dont supply sources

Fred

@shulem I think people feel frustrated. There are so many disparate topics covered here every day, that people don't have the wherewithal to spend extra time on each one.

shulem

i wouldnt mind if you rewrote my work

i know it would be correct

Fred

@shulem I simply don't have time, for the most part.

shulem

7:50 PM

maybe i would learn in time

i can understand that

Daniel

@shulem That's what we're trying to help you with

shulem

i think fred is the only one who can really helop

he is on my wavelengh

Fred

@shulem I can tell that you have a lot to offer. If you keep at it, your posts will be valuable contributions.

shulem

how many of my posts have you downvoted fred

Fred

@shulem One.

shulem

7:52 PM

now which one was that

Charles Koppelman

@shulem If you want help without downvotes (which you seem to value over all else), maybe you can open a chat, and run your ideas through there.

Fred

@shulem The one about the Maharsha, where I commented and gave my reason.

shulem

well it wasnt my torah it was the lubavich rebbe or his writer

Fred

@shulem That wasn't even your fault, by the way.

Charles Koppelman

people can stop by to help clean up your response

shulem

7:52 PM

i would also have downvoted it for your reason

Charles Koppelman

and in time, maybe you can learn

Fred

@shulem Yes, it was the author's fault (not the Lubavitcher Rebbe, by the way).

shulem

maybe i want that

Monica Cellio

@shulem there are questions you find worth answering but not worth upvoting?

shulem

whoever i agree again with you

i cant downvote my own post can i

monica what do you mean

Isaac Moses

7:54 PM

You can edit it or delete it, if you think it's wrong.

shulem

however

Fred

@MonicaCellio I think there are questions that deserve answers, but at the same time don't show much research effort.

shulem

no if some rabbi says it even if i think its wrong he should be allowed to say it

this lubavicher distributes these papers widely

i didnt understand what you meant monica

i dont vote for question only answers

Seth J

@shulem, ping @MonicaCellio (like so) if you want her to see your response.

shulem

i dont understand isnt she in the room

Monica Cellio

7:57 PM

@Fred I agree -- I just meant to ask if that was the case for every single one of the questions @shulem answered, or if he didn't know that questions can be voted on too.

shulem

She learns daf yomi at least

i havent asked many questions

Fred

@MonicaCellio OK.

shulem

i gave up

Monica Cellio

@shulem I'm in the room but there's a lot of activity here and it's easy to miss things. If you @-ping me my name lights up and it's easier to notice.

shulem

oh i see

Daniel

7:58 PM

@shulem, have you compared your upvoted answers with your downvoted answers?

shulem

i just didnt understand

Daniel

If you do that, you will see a big difference

shulem

oh yes i have compared all the time

Daniel

The upvoted ones are concise and well-formatted

shulem

once i get downvote the flood sets in

Daniel

7:59 PM

the downvoted ones are long blocks of text

shulem

no thats not the difference

it all depends what is done first

i tried to explain before

Monica Cellio

@shulem, you might consider voting on questions too (whether you answer them or not). A vote on a question says "this is a good question, worth some attention". I upvote lots of questions that I'm not qualified to answer. Rarely I'll answer a question without upvoting it, but usually, if it's worth my spending time preparing an answer, I find it's also worth an upvote.

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