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1:06 AM
@ShmuelBrill Mistake. Fixed now.
@HodofHod Interesting point. I didn't expect them to fall off the tag. Should we try closure instead?
1:38 AM
@IsaacMoses Alternatively, both of the other two lock reasons do not make the questions fall off the tag
I'm not sure how much editing/voting/accepting they prevent though
2 hours ago, by Shmuel Brill
@IsaacMoses I can also add comments there too
@HodofHod What's the point of locking that doesn't prevent editing and commenting?
@HodofHod Of the two, I'd prefer "Offtopic comments"
@IsaacMoses Idk, it seems that some lockings only lock the question while others lock the answers too
@IsaacMoses hmmm, not sure why, but it makes no difference, I think.
@HodofHod We could lock the answers individually, but that'd be a pain
@IsaacMoses btw, I've been wondering, why don't you have the copy editor badge?
@HodofHod Just how it looks. I don't like to imply machloket where there is none
1:42 AM
@IsaacMoses yes, that would!
@HodofHod :...(
@IsaacMoses Ahh, Okay
@IsaacMoses seriously, though.
@HodofHod Not sure. Maybe it doesn't count plain retags? Maybe it doesn't count SE 1.0 edits?
@IsaacMoses it doesn't count retags, but you've still got 1200+ non-retag edits
@HodofHod Where do you see that?
@HodofHod judaism.stackexchange.com/admin?filter=all (mods only) lists edits, but how do you know those are non-retags?
1:45 AM
the first one does not show retags, I'm almost positive from previous experiences
@HodofHod Interesting. Maybe it's a 1.0 thing. Maybe it's a bug. When you go to judaism.stackexchange.com/review/… and look on the right, under Badge Progress, how many edits does it say you've done?
@IsaacMoses 165
@HodofHod Whereas judaism.stackexchange.com/users?tab=editors&filter=all says 214. Remind me: were you around on m.y?
@IsaacMoses Nope. I'm new
@IsaacMoses re: the 214, that is strange!
@HodofHod So there goes that hypothesis.
1:50 AM
@IsaacMoses what do you have on copy editor progress?
@HodofHod 395
@IsaacMoses hmm
... and @msh210 only got the badge recently, despite having 1K+ for a while
A: What kind of edits contribute to the editor badges?

Jeff Atwood does not include edits to your own posts does not include edits to tags community-wiki posts are eligible tag wiki posts are eligible To count for S&W/Copy Editor, the edit must cover the title, the body or both.

@HodofHod Ding!
1:51 AM
@IsaacMoses still, why the 3 different counts?
Have 2/3 of my non-tag edits been to my own posts?
oh, in the second answer, multi-edits to the same post only count as one. That's probably the biggie.
@IsaacMoses Aha! That must be it.
@HodofHod It's not terribly clear to the user, but on the other hand, it's also not terribly important
@IsaacMoses hmm, true on both counts. There are several such cases, I believe.
Q: Why do tags show the vote count for answers only but the tag count for both Q's and A's?

HodofHodWhen you view your tags on your user page, each tag has a number to the left - that's the total number of votes for all the answers you've given in that tag. To the right is another number - that's the total number of questions and answers you've submitted for that tag. Why the inconsistency? I ...

cases where information is counter-intuitive and confusing.
@HodofHod Yeah, well, it's not like there's a usability and documentation team reviewing every change to the code before it gets pressed into the DVDs that will go to the stores.
1:58 AM
@IsaacMoses Well there should be! ;-)
@HodofHod Nah. Then it'd take a lot longer to get changes out, and there'd be many fewer of them, since so much of what would otherwise be dev resources would go to overhead.
... and our SE mod membership fees would probably go up
@IsaacMoses right again
@IsaacMoses I know, and they're so expensive as it is!
@HodofHod, so, what shall we do about these P"T questions?
@IsaacMoses oh, right! I think we should do a little testing to see which of the two options (off-topic comments or dispute) is a more secure lock. It will require a regular user.
If necessary we can remove the post-notices on them, so they will simply say "locked"
Q: What's an "achashvei"?

Isaac MosesFrom my preschooler: What's an Achashvei? I know that a rosh is a head. I want to know what kind of head Achashveirosh was. Can you help me come up with a satisfying answer? I'd prefer not to have to rely on some sort of academic cop-out like saying the word is actually Ugaratic (whate...

that way, it doesn't say "content disputes" or wtvr
@HodofHod OK, so that issue doesn't apply.
@HodofHod I don't think it requires a regular user. I don't have an "add comment" link on the Achashvei question, but I do have on its answers.
... Though I have edit links all around, which may not be the case for regular users.
2:08 AM
@IsaacMoses It does make it more tedious. This will become a serious problem in coming years, I fear.
@IsaacMoses But shouldn't edits be locked, too?
@HodofHod Yeah, that's an issue.
We could give up on trying to solve this with a technical solution and just use assertion.
@IsaacMoses So we can have a regular user test it. Because we're mods it will always say 'edit'.
@IsaacMoses You mean commenting and letting people know?
...after they edit or respond?
e.g. adding to the disclaimer "Please don't edit or answer this question except during Purim season."
We can also close, which prevents further answers
@IsaacMoses and add that to the stock disclaimer for next year. Okay.
@IsaacMoses Ok. works for me.
... or close and low-level-lock, which prevents edits to the question and new answers, just doesn't prevent edits to answers
... or just close and not worry about edits
2:15 AM
@IsaacMoses hmm. Why don't we just go with closing for now and see how that works out?
@IsaacMoses exactly.
@HodofHod so unlock, close as Too Localized, and leave it at that?
@IsaacMoses And add the extra piece to the disclaimer
@HodofHod I think we can even skip that.
@IsaacMoses ok, then. Works for me.
I don't think there's too much of a threat of rampant editing of P"T posts. As long as we disallow new content, it'll keep it from being an open-ending thing.
2:17 AM
[Just joining back in...] Why can't we just leave it as locked for historical reasons? It doesn't actually lose the tag. It just doesn't show up in the tag list/count. Proof is I still can click the Purim Torah questions I asked from my user page and I still see the tag there.
It makes it very inaccessible. But that's ok.
@DoubleAA But we can't then find it by clicking on the tag, and we're afraid the tag will disappear
... though I guess it can't disappear if it's on questions that are only tagged it.
I say test it.
@DoubleAA It'd be kind of confusing to have a policy pointing to this tag, which is apparently empty
@IsaacMoses Also, makes it a pain to go back and unlock them next year
Won't it delete after 24 hours if it is going to do so at all?
2:20 AM
@HodofHod I actually don't really intend to unlock any, personally, unless there's a particularly good reason for specific ones.
@HodofHod ... and we can find them with judaism.stackexchange.com/…
@IsaacMoses ahhh, I wondered about that, actually. I thought that's what the plan was
@IsaacMoses cheater!
@IsaacMoses ahh, I remembered reading that, but forgot all the caveats
@IsaacMoses In that case, just lock it. I'm betting the tag won't actually disappear, but even if it did we could still find them all. And if need be we will adjust the meta post to point to that search result page.
@HodofHod Actually, for that, closure is more convenient, since you can scan the list of questions and easily pick out the closed ones.
2:24 AM
@IsaacMoses I have to say, I prefer closing. Makes it simpler.
@HodofHod @DoubleAA Gah! I see both points of view. Had I commited geneivat da'at, I could provide my two minds as keifel payment.
@IsaacMoses :-D
(... never got around to developing a well-written answer along those lines to that question)
@DoubleAA @IsaacMoses can a non-mod undelete their own post?
@HodofHod Not sure. Probably not if they weren't the one who deleted it.
2:28 AM
@HodofHod I think so. But only if they deleted it themselves.
@DoubleAA You don't by any chance have a desire to test it out, do you? I'm trying something.
A: How does one person have two undelete votes?

balphaUhm... oops. Nice catch. When a user wants to undelete their own post, but this post was deleted by the community (as was the case here), their undelete vote isn't binding anymore (unlike if they had deleted it themselves). In other words, three undelete votes are necessary to undelete the post....

@HodofHod @DoubleAA, how about if we leave things as they are for now (consistent with the policy as written) and solicit msh210's opinion?
@HodofHod No need. see the answer there.
(... which will probably propose a third, equally-appealing alternative ...)
2:30 AM
@DoubleAA doesn't address when the user self-deletes
@IsaacMoses ok
@HodofHod "unlike if they had deleted it themselves"
@IsaacMoses Sound good to me.
@DoubleAA doesn't say that it would undelete it, just that the vote would count.
@HodofHod It implies the vote would be binding if they had deleted it themselves.
@DoubleAA binding does not mean it only takes that one vote to undelete, methinks
@HodofHod medisagrees
2:33 AM
@DoubleAA shall we try it, then?
@msh210, when you get a chance, could you please take a look at chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/468/conversation/… and chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/468/conversation/… , and let us (@HodofHod, @DoubleAA, and me) know what you think? (Others welcome to weigh in as well.)
OK, guys, thanks for all your deliberations. I gotta go fold some laundry.
@IsaacMoses Idk, too many opinions and we'll end up with tashlumai arba v'chamisha
Good evening.
@IsaacMoses Take care
@HodofHod Sorry, my laptop got thirsty for some juice :)
2:37 AM
@HodofHod Could come in handy. I'm planning to play some con games on some sheeple.
@HodofHod To avoid messing with my rep, here is a post of mine that has no votes :( judaism.stackexchange.com/a/13931/759 I have now deleted it. Can you confirm that you see it as deleted?
@DoubleAA yup, gone
@HodofHod And now?
@DoubleAA alright, thanks!
@HodofHod No problem.
2:40 AM
@DoubleAA I think I've found a bug that allows you to game the badge system. not that anyone would be so bored, but....
@HodofHod For which badge? I think for the Disciplined badge my delete/undelete trick works.
@DoubleAA disciplined, and possibly peer pressure
@DoubleAA It already worked for me, but I'm not sure about multiple times
Q: I cheated on the Disciplined badge, how bad is it?

Scorpi0 I was looking for badges I didn't have yet, and I saw the Disciplined badge. So I deleted an answer of mine with 3+ votes, and waited. Five minutes later, sweet, a new badge! Then I went to my answer again, and undeleted it. No problem at all, and I keep the badge! What will happen? Will my ba...

@HodofHod I don't think you can get that badge multiple times.
yeah I just saw that myself
but see here
A: Recent feature changes to Stack Exchange

msh210 Feb 2012 2012-02-29: When a user is deleted, acceptance votes will be moved to Community user, so that reputation points awarded for having the accepted answer will no longer disappear 2012-02-27: The amount of example questions with 10+ votes required to reach the commitment phase has been r...

"Also note that losing your qualification for a already-earned badge will (usually?) no longer result in your next badge of the same type being withheld."
@HodofHod But can you get those badges multiple times? I think they are one-timers.
2:47 AM
@DoubleAA Whoops! you're right
A: List of all badges with full descriptions

Popular DemandRegular badges A-L Jump to M-Z Altruist bronze; awarded once; same family as Benefactor, Investor, Promoter (all bronze) Award a bounty on another user's question Awarding means manually selecting a bounty winner; letting the system auto-award half the bounty does not count Not awarded on p...

3:14 AM
what a waste
3:40 AM
@l What's up Vram?
4:15 AM
@DoubleAA re: the flag. what about it?
@HodofHod Thought you might want to be aware of it in terms of a) his un-reason and b) his seeming involvement/care about what still goes on here. Not sure where you (plural) are holding with him in terms of his suspension and whatnot.
@DoubleAA as far as suspension goes, I was under the impression that Isaac did that to prevent more deletions
@DoubleAA I don't understand 'a)'
what un-reason?
@HodofHod It seems he's come la'afukei this: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/3723858#3723858
@DoubleAA ahh
@DoubleAA We're on top of it. We've contacted him (and thereby given him opportunity to contact us) through two different channels. Thanks for your concern.
4:29 AM
@DoubleAA please post that Adam Mosheh represents neither me nor my motives and that his comments are both incorrect and uncalled for.
from an anonymous user.
@Community Vram requested that I post that Adam Mosheh [ and his comments here ] represent neither him nor his motives and that his comments are both incorrect and uncalled for.
@ShmuelBrill Thanks. I'm on top of it.
@ShmuelBrill Based on previous similar anonymous user edits tonight I have strong reason to believe the identity of this user is none other than Vram.
@DoubleAA On what evidence?
@IsaacMoses Did you see my flag earlier tonight?
@DoubleAA Yes. Would you care to share with the rest of the class?
The following is the text of the flag: See this and this and this and this and this.
4:36 AM
@DoubleAA Thank you. There are edits there from (presumably one) anonymous user. What evidence is there as to the identity of that user?
His seeming response to my post towards Vram in the first link.
@DoubleAA So, l' showed up here in chat, you said hello, and right afterward, that edit happened?
Make sure to see the content of the edit in the second link of the flag.
@IsaacMoses Soon after.
@DoubleAA 7 minutes, it looks like.
@hachamgabriel approved??
@IsaacMoses In his defense I wouldn't have noticed it otherwise.
I know we don't have a policy on this kind of thing because it isn't very common or conventional but maybe we should make it that suggested edits clearly directed at a user should be left un-decided until that user comes to see them by himself or after notification in chat.
4:44 AM
@IsaacMoses <s>Perhaps leave themopen and unlocked unless and until people answer/comment year-'round, in which close/lock that particular question?</s>
Alternatively, one could do like ShmuelBrill and reject the edit, but post it in chat.
@msh210 Ad SheYavo HaShelishi...
@DoubleAA I'm not really a big fan of people using our content as a dropbox for personal messages.
@IsaacMoses Er, yeah, I'm going through the backread, and see now that you've discussed thisfurther... maybe I should finish reading before I comment.
Rephrase: I'm really not a big fan
@IsaacMoses I understand your concern, but realize that the vast majority of users who want to send messages can do so in chat. Vram wasn't sending a private message; he just had no other way of doing it publicly. It really is an unusual case we are arguing about.
4:48 AM
@DoubleAA He had no way of doing it publicly because his account was suspended.
@IsaacMoses Yes...
... and like I said, he has at least two channels through which to contact the mods.
@IsaacMoses He wasn't trying to contact the mods, unless you want him to privately email you to post to me that he apologizes for ignoring my chat post.
@IsaacMoses I agree.
@IsaacMoses I agree with this too.
@DoubleAA That would be acceptable, if he could make a compelling case for that. I'd rather myself than our content be a conduit for such messages.
... He could also contact us to ask for the suspension to be removed, and make a case for that.
4:52 AM
@IsaacMoses I think closure and unlocking makes sense. @HodofHod @DoubleAA
Hm, no one showed up for Parashat Hashavua' Chat last week. Unsurprising.
@msh210 Thank you. @DoubleAA, any objection to following hakotev hashelishi?
@IsaacMoses Very well then.
@IsaacMoses I'm not going to touch on that.
@IsaacMoses None at all.
@HodofHod Firsted.
@DoubleAA (I didn't ask you, because that was your position already.)
(oh, wait. I got that backwards! Sorry.)
(fixed now :)
4:55 AM
@DoubleAA :-)
@DoubleAA :)
@IsaacMoses :-(
@HodofHod FCOL, first we've got cloak and dagger intrigue flying, and now I have to decipher your mercurial facial expressions?
@IsaacMoses @msh210 @HodofHod This is going to look really odd on the transcript.
@IsaacMoses Not to mention ETLAs!
4:57 AM
@DoubleAA The whole past hour's conversation is about to be nuked. Didn't you hear?
@IsaacMoses It must have slipped through under the cloak.
@msh210 Extended Three-Letter Acronyms?
@msh210 At least mine is interpreted correctly in the first Google result.
חבל שלא דברנו על משיח Welcome @AdamMosheh
A FLAB is an abbreviation using four letters. It is an abbreviation of Four Letter ABbreviation. It extends the self-referential humour of the TLA (Three Letter Acronym). It is sometimes referred to as an ETLA or XTLA (Extended Three Letter Acronym) Description In a world where every possible Three Letter Acronym has been registered as a .com, and almost every pronounceable one has many usages, there is a lot more scope for a unique name and greater readability with four letters. Using only upper-case English letters, there are 264 = 456,976 possible four-letter abbreviations. If numbe...
4:59 AM
@IsaacMoses True.
@msh210 At first I thought it had something to do with End-User License Agreements....
a rope that we did not talk about mashiach?
All right. Now that I've caught up on the chat backread, I must go. Still have several things to do tonight, and it's the witching hour.
@HodofHod @msh210 anyone want to start at the bottom of judaism.stackexchange.com/… with the unlocking and the closing and meet me in the middle?
5:01 AM
@msh210 Behatzlacha
Vram told me about this whole thing going on in chat here
@IsaacMoses No can do now, sorry. :-(
@msh210 Understood. Thanks for dropping in to be machria'
@AdamMosheh חבל = "It's a shame" or "woe"
5:02 AM
not chevel, rather chaval
my bad
@AdamMosheh Start from here
Good night, y'all.
yes okay
i spoke with Vram tonight
Also, @AdamMosheh that phrase is the more Jewish equivalent of "speak of the Devil" by virtue of its not referencing the Devil.
he's a friend of mine in RL
5:04 AM
Real Life?
not the Devil, Vram is.
real life.
@AdamMosheh I hope he is doing well.
__NOTOC__ Real life is a term usually used to denote an actual event or life lived by real people, in contrast with fiction or fantasy characters. Usage online and in fiction On the Internet, "real life" refers to life in the real world. It generally references life or consensus reality, in contrast to an environment seen as fiction or fantasy, such as virtual reality, lifelike experience, dreams, novels, or movies. Online, the acronym "IRL" stands for "in real life", with the meaning "not on the Internet". When used to distinguish from fictional worlds or universes against the consen...
@AdamMosheh (taking this out of context) Thanks, Yoda. We know.
@DoubleAA I believe he is
5:07 AM
@IsaacMoses I have a theory about students of gemara being better than other americans at deciphering a given acronym.
okay rabosai, i have a theory as well
@DoubleAA I've been learning gemaras etc... for years, and I still find new roshei teivos all the time.
@HodofHod You find new ones, but you also have a much higher chance of guessing them correctly without looking in the Otzar. כנלע"ד
i saw a cool roshei teivot tonight
@DoubleAA there's an Otzar???
5:13 AM
yes there is an otzar
i just purchased one actually
so anyway
No fair!
here is my theory: Vram and msh210 are really the same person
@HodofHod There are multiple.
what do u guys think
@HodofHod I'm 99% sure that was a joke, but an online Otzar is available here
5:15 AM
@AdamMosheh not unless one of them is lying about their name
@AdamMosheh Do you have any evidence for this claim?
just kinda speculating
(I'm highly skeptical of it.)
but evidence will arise i hope when i show you some things
Especially because Vram had a significant tendency towards quoting sefardi achronim, while it seems msh210 is a bonified Ashkenazi.
5:17 AM
@AdamMosheh Let me cut you off there. The answer is no.
@IsaacMoses Awww... I know it's a no, but I'm curious what kind of evidence he would bring! It's kinda like purim torah: funny connections lead to absurd conclusions.
@AdamMosheh I thought you said you know vram IRL, he didn't tell you that he's also msh210??
@DoubleAA Sorry. Proceed, @AdamMosheh, for the benefit of @DoubleAA and anyone else who's interested. I, having carried out this, am getting out of here.
he learns by a sefardic rav now so that is why he quotes sefardishe poskim more as vram
@AdamMosheh OK, that's still not a connection.
5:20 AM
@IsaacMoses Alright, me too. G'night all!
now has a listing of 24 closed questions and will remain so until next Rosh Chodesh Adar [B].
@IsaacMoses 30 Adar [A] IIRC. Get pumped! :)
@DoubleAA You said the same thing as I did.
@IsaacMoses Just making sure no one makes any bad diyukim ChV"Sh
@DoubleAA Appreciated, as always.
5:26 AM
Not sure what it is
15 hours later…
7:56 PM
@AdamMosheh, I'm also curious as to what the evidence is that I'm Vram. Care to elaborate? (As noted, though, I'm not he. In fact, if you know Vram IRL, as you say you do, then you should be able to research me (start by Googling my username) sufficiently to convince yourself that I'm not he.)

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