offensive?

terdon

14:11

@Zanna as a self declared feminist, would you mind having letting me know if I'm being unreasonable in the comments here please?

Pinging you here so as not to make a big deal out of it. Oh, and I mean apart from the "both genders" bit. That one I've noticed but can live with.

jokerdino

14:25

If several people agree something is not a nice thing to say, you can't really defend it.

Anwar

+1 ^

terdon

@jokerdino Of course not, but I'm not trying to. That's what I wanted to check. I am not trying to defend the specific usage, I'm just arguing that the presence of a (non-vulgar) term is not enough to make something offensive.

Zanna

14:49

Damn, sorry, was on the tube, now I'm on mobile & almost at work, I may have to respond when I have a real keyboard...

terdon

@Zanna No hurry

jokerdino

If you are arguing something is not so and so because it is so and so in your own culture and people tell so and so is actually not that welcome in their own culture and you refuse to accept/acknowledge that and continue in your own way in a different cultural setting is not a position you should be in.

It's all right if you don't know something is not offensive because of your culture but once you are aware of it, you can no longer use it as an excuse.

terdon

@jokerdino Huh? No, I was replying to this comment:

I'd hesitate to say any jokes about tits are okay, actually, given the quote from Be Nice I picked out. Most body parts, fine, but once you start joking about private body parts, you're seriously toeing the line. Still, I can't fault the rest of this answer. — ArtOfCode 5 hours ago

I was pointing out that what is considered a "private" body part is largely cultural so we shouldn't impose a blanket ban on a non-vulgar word for it.

And that the body part in question isn't universally taboo. It certainly isn't where I come from.

I am not defending saying things that others are offended by (although you do need to draw the line somewhere, everything will offend someone), I'm just saying that the use of the word tit is not necessarily offensive (even if it was so in this case).

jokerdino

15:04

You are trying to remove the context to back your point.

terdon

I am?

My entire point is that context defines what is and is not offensive.

> So, anything, be it tit or elbow that carries a sense of dislike for the person whose elbow or tit it is, is off limits. But just like an innocuous word may be used offensively, so can a word that is sometimes offensive be used innocuously.

jokerdino

A word may or may not be offensive and a practice may or may not be taboo in your culture but we are not living in a homogeneous culture and if people raise concerns about your remarks, you better listen to it.

terdon

> Defending a right to talk that way in the presence of someone who told them it is hurtful seems ... unusual to me. – Kate Gregory 1 hour ago

> @KateGregory more than unusual, it's downright moronic. I am in no way defending the use of any term that someone else has found offensive.

@jokerdino Of course! See above

jokerdino

I guess you are in the courts of pedantry now.

terdon

I honestly don't understand what you mean. I am quoting directly from the comment thread.

ArtOfCode seemed to be suggesting that a specific, non-vulgar word should never be used. That's what I was objecting to. I am not saying that it should be used if anyone has stated that it bothers them!

In fact, I thought I clearly stated the opposite.

Apparently, I haven't.

jokerdino

15:10

You are claiming something is non-vulgar because of your culture which is what I am arguing against.

terdon

@jokerdino Huh? No! The word tit is not vulgar. That is not in question. It is colloquial, but absolutely not vulgar.

jokerdino

It's vulgar slang in most dictionaries.

3

terdon

@jokerdino Show me one that calls it vulgar.

jokerdino

tit2
tɪt/
noun
plural noun: tits

    1.
    vulgar slang
    a woman's breast.

terdon

Heh, yep also just found one. Damn.

OK. I admit I'm surprised at that. It has never been a word I'd consider actually vulgar. Not one I'd use in polite conversation but certainly one I'd use in casual conversation. Also one I've heard very, very often used in casual context around me by people of all sexes.

jokerdino

15:13

I was saying it's all right to not be sure of something because of your culture and exposure but when people have strong concerns, better do adjust yourself.

terdon

@jokerdino Of course. No argument there.

jokerdino

And it applies to what you just recently said.

terdon

And I guess the dictionary kinda destroyed my entire argument. As a native speaker, I certainly wouldn't consider that word vulgar though. Weird.

jokerdino

We are settled then.

terdon

Fair enough

jokerdino

15:16

Probably should be moved to a different room.

terdon

← 41 messages moved from Ubuntu Regulators

Anwar

Seems the issue is settled. For me, it's surprising not considering that one as non-vulgar... not arguing. just adding some info.

terdon

@Anwar Rude, sure. Vulgar is a strong word though.

We're talking about a word that isn't even censored in US television.

AFAIK, anyway.

Anwar

If we look 40 years back, we'd see different thing I guess.

terdon

15:31

Sure. If we look 100 years back, damn was extremely vulgar.

Anwar

AFAIK, most part of the world consider that word still a vulgar

terdon

We can only be guided by current usage though

@Anwar Slang is not vulgar!

Of course it's slang.

Anwar

corrected.

terdon

So's 'sup or yolo, neither are vulgar.

Ah, right, sorry.

Zanna

16:09

Having produced three anguished handwritten pages while trying to help my 12 yo autistic student write about a seriously NSFW topic, I arrive here to find that it was unnecessary since the feminist work has been done. Nonetheless I will type up my redundant contrubution later if it seems to have any value on review... thanks for inviting.

terdon

16:24

@Zanna First off, would you consider tits to be vulgar? Not rude, not mildly offensive, vulgar. It seems my take on it is different from that of others and I'd like to hear what another native speaker has to say. Is it not a word you'd use when chatting with your friends or when talking/thinking about your body?

Zanna

16:37

Argh I'm really sorry, I really need to think carefully & say everything at once to avoid causing harm :( I will answer when I can

jokerdino

@Zanna I am not a feminist so it's better to have your inputs here.

terdon

@Zanna Could you answer the linguistic part of it at least? As a brit, of any gender.

Zanna

@jokerdino you have done work for me here and for sure I will follow up later. On the linguistic part I will attempt to reciprocate...

Zanna

17:02

@terdon I reject in this context your appeal to me as a native speaker (though as a person with knowledge of feminism I accept). What is native speaker signifying here? What makes my English more valid? Because Afaik it's an "official" language of India for example. My English is a dialect of English and I refuse any authority over anyone who happens to have ended up speaking it beautifully as a result of my country's disgusting history...

If the word is offensive to some users of English then it is offensive here where all our equally valid englishes have to somehow coexist, Imho..On a personal level, I might say that word among women, but it can certainly make me uncomfortable to hear it said by a man.

Ugh now I'm scared

terdon

@Zanna Of course! No dialect is better than any other, I wanted a native speaker of a dialect that's close to mine, and one that I'm familiar with, that's all.

@Zanna Of course it can be offensive. I was just wondering if you also agree that it is vulgar by definition. That's a purely linguistic question. I'd consider that word less vulgar than, say, shit for example.

@Zanna Damn straight it can! What I was trying to convey with my (now deleted) and apparently badly expressed comments, was that the word in and of itself, is not enough to make something offensive. Saying great tits is a very different proposition from something innocuous like arse over tit.

@Zanna And please don't be scared! Why would you be scared? Mine was an honest request for your opinion. Plus, my sister is, well, kind of obsessed with gender issues. I have had much harder conversations with her than any I'm likely to have with you :). She is always quick to pounce upon any sexist attitudes I might be harboring and I am usually glad for her help.

Actually, since we're on the subject, please take this as a standing invitation to always let me know if I say anything that you perceive as sexist, @Zanna. I think my sister's weeded out most of that crap, but I know there's all sort of latent and implicit sexism left behind. So yeah, please point it out and I promise I'll never take offense.

Zanna

Scared because I don't think well in short time & more than likely I will say something unhelpful or worse or misunderstand everything. Really cant talk now, but thanks all for engaging, I'll be back...

Zanna

21:46

wow it took me like 20 minutes to write 6 lines on mobile :S

I agree with this chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/32333117#32333117 and this chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/32333372#32333372 and I couldn't say this any better, in fact I'm only going to say that much worse...

But since you asked and it's late in my time zone & I am feeling reckless, here goes... to prefix, after I wrote most of this I read your comments again and I was like "wait what? These comments are nowhere near as problematic as I remember them being?" and perhaps this experience is instructive on the nature of the topic... Now I can't read those comments, and can't remember them exactly, so I am just going to make a possibly foolish attempt to write something extensible...

I am gonna say too much I'm sure and totally miss the point of being asked to comment on a particular instance and come across like I'm insulting your intelligence & awareness... :(

I appreciate being asked to comment, that makes me feel good actually, and in answer to your invitation @terdon (thanks for that) please feel free to ask me about these things. That you asked me as a feminist makes sense, but of course you know in general it would not be cool to ask me to do so because I'm a woman (which is one thing the OP is complaining about) since being asked to represent some marginalised group you belong to is, as she says, very tiring and worse

I mention this because I also have to say that relatedly, as you most surely know I can't give you a pass, which isn't what you asked for, but, I'm saying it. I can't and won't speak for "women" (no monolithic concept possible) (and there's no way I would violate solidarity by attempting to give out passes)

I say both of these things because I need to say that as a person privileged along some axis, such as gender, seeking advice is great but, preferably *before speaking* I think the person needs to
1. be aware of their (in this case) power...
Now I absolutely know that **you** (@terdon) know this, that the one who has the most power has to have the lightest touch, I don't need to tell you that... but also
2. be aware that the situation looks different to you because of your privilege. [There is a great art project that I find useful](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/whiteness-goggles-cultu…

if you (general you) have no experience of being on the pointy end of this -ism then you really have no way of measuring the impact or importance of it for people who are spending their whole lives at the pointy end with no way to \escape

The... um... correct procedure when a marginalised person (compared to you along some axis) is (attempting to) speak(ing) out is to listen & believe

This is all 101 and didn't need repeating I'm sure, but wth, I've said it anyway

So about those comments(!)

I agree with you that context is everything

this includes the context of the context and its context, which, in the question is, the room in question, and, Stack Exchange, and, a not-at-all-homogenous-but-still-pretty-much-mostly-sexist culture

in terms of what you actually said (poorly recalled), I don't think you can make a reasonable argument that the privacy of body parts is culturally defined and therefore references to them can't be inherently offensive (perhaps I misinterpreted totally) since, in the real context under discussion (the room full of people from everywhere but speaking English and Stack Exchange ditto) for a subset of people there that you know about (you have been told by the OP!)...

(and I think it is the majority anyway?)

breasts & words for them are a source of sexist speech & are connoted in a way that makes mention of them more likely than not to produce an atmosphere that those people will find uncomfortable

More important than the exact comments, imho, is the context of the comments, which you did not ask about, but which is inseparable...

Zanna

22:48

Unfortunately people do not read carefully, and most have been living in a sexist culture & absorbed it. Skim reading your comments, the reader may think something like hmm this guy says this woman is just overreacting (since that is what women are usually presumed to be doing when we complain about sexist language). That's not what you said at all, but, I think, I would not have made such comments on considering how they might find a use in arguments I don't agree with

I also think you comments are a kind of call to objectivity, which is almost always sexist be default in a conversation about sexism

oops too late to edit my typos... I should have written this somewhere else first...

edwinksl

@Zanna Do you plan to write up something in response to that MSE post? You clearly have given this more thought than most of us here have

Zanna

TL:DR there's really no way for anyone to slip off the helmet of language and culture and magically not find stuff offensive because it's more convenient for the purpose of moderation...

but still not done... (hi @edwinksl maybe? I want to support OP, but that is a Wild Place?)

edwinksl

23:05

Okay, looking forward to reading it then :)

Zanna

as an addendum to my endless unnecessary ramble, I have to try something else, which I am finding difficult... I don't wanna get this wrong... @terdon asked me to comment on a comment (as a feminist) and @jokerdino answered instead of me... and @Anwar also supported. My interpretation of this, is that @jokerdino answered only because it was an answerable question for him, and wasn't speaking on behalf of me especially. I'm telling you my interpretation because...

I don't want you to think it's a personal thank you

when I say thank you for doing that.

...for doing what I consider feminist work. I don't think I can explain how good it feels when men do feminist work! It's like someone takes the load off your back

And @terdon I also remember your feminist work, as I call it, some time ago, and thank you for that too

edwinksl

I do want to say that it is often difficult to determine apriori if a word or phrase or joke is offensive to someone else, so it is really a process of experimentation and feedback that determines the boundary between not offensive and offensive. This is why I think your inputs are valuable and you should voice your opinion in a more public place like MSE. More often than not, people take silence as consent and we don't want that to happen.

Zanna

Thanks & I agree that it is difficult & that silence is taken as consent :(

Not here on AU though, this place is lovely because we have amazing mods :)

edwinksl

"Casual sexism" is all too common in male-dominated fields and places (including most of SE sites) and as a member of a male-dominated field, my experience tells me it is not easy to get people to stop being casually sexist.

By that, I refer to people who make sexist statements and then pass them off as "it is just a joke, don't be so serious!!!" whenever someone points out that such statements are sexist.

Zanna

23:22

tell me about it... fortunately I seem to meet enough dudes willing to do the feminist work. Thanks for your comments, much appreciated. It's 00:21 in my timezone and I am already sleep deprived and inevitably I'll wake up too early, so I'm out. Later xxx

edwinksl

Night!

Zanna

(from this one chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/32344180#32344180 "(in this case)" is a mistake)

Transcript for