The alternative is to ignore all feature requests like Knuth. There are still bug reports though

@samcarter The blog post series might make a good answer for latex3 - Where I can find introduction to programming in expl3? - TeX - LaTeX Stack Exchange (that having said the main difficulties are the TeX-specific parts though. Things that you commonly do in other languages as well are pretty easy.)

@user202729 What blog post series?

@DavidCarlisle quack

@UlrikeFischer short follow-up question to the last Dante-Tagung: When we spoke about LaTeX's apparent inabilty to write real spaces into PDFs, you mentioned that there was a way by writing the space into the pdf and reverting the width they occupy in order to save LaTeX's spacing. My question is: Is this already implemented in the LaTeX kernel and, if yes, since when?

@Lupino it is implemented in the tagpdf code.

\DocumentMetadata{uncompress}
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{tagpdf}
\tagpdfsetup{interwordspace}

\begin{document}
xx xx xx xx
\end{document}

(lualatex, pdftex uses a different method, and xetex + latex+dvips can't do it=.

@PauloCereda breakfast\ignorespaces

vacuum packed duck

@UlrikeFischer would a meeting in Germany to triage tagged pdf issues be a tagtagtag?

@mickep you're mean

@DavidCarlisle we probably would put in some Bindestriche and uppercase, so Tag-tagtag-Tag

@DavidCarlisle oh no

@mickep oh no

@DavidCarlisle We can be both mean

@CarLaTeX yes but I am not:

@CarLaTeX did you try the example expl3 document I posted yesterday?

@DavidCarlisle no, which one?

@DavidCarlisle You're mean and don't know how to properly dress a pizza

@CarLaTeX congratulations on successfully processing a LaTeX3 document.

@DavidCarlisle :D

@DavidCarlisle ... I wonder why people question the readability of l3code -- your example clearly proofs how easily it is to understand :P

@user202729 Thanks for the links!

@DavidCarlisle would such a meeting be public?

@Lupino Are you suggesting a Tag-tagtag-Tag-Tagung? :P

@samcarter sure why not

@Lupino Yes but might have to be held in Hungary

@DavidCarlisle as long as you tag me beforehand, i'll be there.

@DavidCarlisle You could invite en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katrin_Lea_Tag as keynote speaker

But, fun aside, a specific conference/meeting about LaTeX and accessibility doesn't sound like such a bad idea… Given that the EU requires all publishers to provide accessible versions of their online publications by June 2025 (eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/2019/882/oj).

@Lupino Well if you want to prepare yourself: Start to clean up your templates. Whatever the LaTeX kernel will implement here, it will not work with old templates doing lots of low-level trickery to force some visual effect.

@Lupino The team are very much aware of the need to support accessibility - a lot of the work going on (even things like case changing adjustments) are really driven by this - cleaning up the codebase so it can work with the needs for modern documents

@JosephWright sorry, i it wasn't my intention to put pressure on the LaTeX team.

@Lupino Oh, don't worry, you are not :)

@Lupino I meant only that there's quite a bit going on, and there are several meetings we and others are involved in

i'm just curious on what the current state is; what is worked on, where is help needed, etc

@Lupino Frank and @UlrikeFischer have talked about the plans ... I'll find a link

@Lupino latex-project.org/publications/…

@Lupino latex-project.org/publications/indexbyyear/2021

@JosephWright thanks for the links. Is there a way to keep in touch with the current development?

@Lupino Most of the code goes into the public repos (latex2e, latex3, pdfmanagement-testphase)

and tagpdf (currently still in my repo).

@UlrikeFischer I thought about that ...

@JosephWright yes at some time it should move.

@UlrikeFischer Probably: it's easy enough to move the repo, it's a question of if you want to give up complete control :)

@JosephWright Could you have a look if something like github.com/josephwright/beamer/pull/781 would make sense? I don't have enough experience with this xelatex link stuff to judge if this is a good idea.

@samcarter you've got a secret email :)

@PauloCereda ohh

@PauloCereda Oh, secrets.

@mickep ooh

@samcarter imho if it works (which it seems to do) it is better than the current situation. But on the whole the links there are not really useful, I wouldn't use them in a presentation, much to easy to miss the right click.

@UlrikeFischer I won't disagree with that :) Personally I don't use any mouse clicky thingies in a presentation at all, just keyboard and/or presenter. But given how often questions about the headline navigation pop-up, it seems many people actually do use it.

@UlrikeFischer ... and thanks for having a look!

@PauloCereda counter-ooh!

@samcarter this is the best bit:

@Skillmon <3

@PauloCereda saw the secret signal?

@Skillmon ooh

@DavidCarlisle and the error message is ! LaTeX Error: File hypdoc.sty' not found.`.

@UlrikeFischer excelent package, especially its last update.

@DavidCarlisle ;-). I'm pondering about converting hyperref to the new keyval and wonder if one can dare to take the opportunity to disable the pdfencoding key und stick to unicode.

@samcarter @user202729 alanshawn.com/latex3-tutorial

@PauloCereda Lindo día para un pato asado :D

@PabloGonzálezL oh no

@PabloGonzálezL go away

@samcarter ooh twitter.com/hyxpk/status/1543988023141945344

@PauloCereda Jejeje

@UlrikeFischer, @DavidCarlisle I take it you are both happy with my case changing adjustments? Assuming that's the case, I'll commit and do an l3kernel release this evening

@JosephWright imho that is nice and useful. biblatex will be able to do its stuff without patching.

@JosephWright looked OK to me, but I don't pretend to follow every detail of the case changer...

@DavidCarlisle :)

@UlrikeFischer Cool

@UlrikeFischer yes accept it with an info message saying it doesn't do anything

@DavidCarlisle you are answering the pdfencoding question?

@UlrikeFischer haven't seen it been in a video call last hour or so

@DavidCarlisle now I'm confused. Then what should I accept with an info message?

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@UlrikeFischer the pdfencoding option

@DavidCarlisle :P any suggestions who could be blamed for this?

@samcarter @UlrikeFischer

@DavidCarlisle :)

@PauloCereda Oh, duck science!

@samcarter the drawing is so cute!

@PauloCereda indeed!

@PabloGonzálezL Of course I'm aware of that, it's linked from that question and I'm obsessive link follower

PL4 texlive.net/run?%5Cshowlog

Interesting. No image output though (there's also TIO that I know of but its support for TeX is poor)

@user202729 ???

Talk about services that let you run TeX code online for demo which might be convenient to include in answers

@UlrikeFischer which question?

@DavidCarlisle I meant my question about pdfencoding. You answered it already.

@DavidCarlisle why should that work?

@UlrikeFischer ah I was looking on site for a post about pdfencoding....

@UlrikeFischer any undefined command will do, just make it show the log

@DavidCarlisle ah, you only wanted to show that you are up-to-date. Why didn't you use \blub? Much easier to understand.

@UlrikeFischer texlive.net/run?\let\dinner=\duck

@DavidCarlisle oh no

@PauloCereda chat markdown seems to agree with you and doesn't allow that one

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@DavidCarlisle I was wondering if you really intended to stay hungry

@UlrikeFischer oh

@DavidCarlisle Just escape the backslash like how you did earlier? https://texlive.net/run?%5Clet%5Cdinner=%5Cduck → texlive.net/run?%5Clet%5Cdinner=%5Cduck

@user202729 yes I just wonder what the actual rules are, why does ?\dinner work?

Good point

https://texlive.net/run?\dinner → texlive.net/run?\dinner

No it doesn't work either

That one you probably just copy paste from the URL bar and it automagically prepend https:// and percent escape things

@user202729 ah sorry yes I see what you mean

Has something changed with biber? It no longer finds my .bib file.

@AlanMunn we broke it yesterday, should be fixed(ish) today (but that was an error about failure to patch a definition)

@DavidCarlisle For everyone? Because on the issues page for biber it seems to be a Mac issue only.

@AlanMunn everyone, no half measures here (but not your issue it seems, also that was biblatex not biber)

@DavidCarlisle Yes, this is not a biblatex issue, it's specifically a biber issue.

@AlanMunn yes you just happened to ask a day after a latex release made every biblatex load give an error, so my mind was drawn to that:-)

@DavidCarlisle Luckily there's a simple workaround to use the full path of the .bib file for the moment.

@UlrikeFischer does hyperindex really need to be load time?

@user202729 :D

@PauloCereda Jajajjaja

@DavidCarlisle @Skillmon Can you give me a hand (without l3keys2e) by adjusting this example (github.com/latex3/latex3/blob/main/l3packages/l3keys2e/…)

I get errors for one reason or another when removing l3keys2e :(

@DavidCarlisle as it is coded currently yes. Long term i don't know , I didn't look much at that part.

@UlrikeFischer I just searched for hyperidex and it does't do so much really I suspect it could be changed, but I'd agre with initially changing the option handler without changing option code as far as possible, make testing easier

@PabloGonzálezL you get error in the original as well of course for option5

@PabloGonzálezL (@JosephWright) this is minimal change but not sure it should be saying option2 is unused

@PabloGonzálezL slightly more idiomatic use of new code same result as above

\begin{filecontents}{l3keys2e-class.cls}
  \LoadClass{article}
 %% \RequirePackage{l3keys2e}
  \ProvidesExplClass{l3keys2e-class}{0000/00/00}{0.0}{test}
  \DeclareKeys {
    option1 .code:n = {\wlog{You~gave~`#1'~for~option1}}
  }
  \ProcessKeyOptions
\end{filecontents}

% Load the class with some options.
% The class itself recognises `option1', leaving `option2' and
% `option3' as global optons which are not yet used.
\documentclass[option1=check,option2=more stuff,option3=unused]
  {l3keys2e-class}

@DavidCarlisle Issue?

@JosephWright oh my comment above was wrog, filecontents error, but can you try the above

! Undefined control sequence.
<argument> \@raw@classoption

@JosephWright ^

@DavidCarlisle Thanks, only add [overwrite] for test

@DavidCarlisle This :D same for me...why?

Without renaming \keys_define:nn to \DeclareKeys and using \ProcessKeyOptions [ test1 ] I have the same problem (and that's what I wanted to do with a package)...am I wrong about something?

@DavidCarlisle I'll blame the one who put the sentence in bold in the last l3keys2e update :D

@DavidCarlisle @JosephWright Maybe it is related to (github.com/latex3/latex2e/issues/885)

I think I will wait for PL5 , thanks for clarifying my doubt :D

@JosephWright In relation to https I was referring to (github.com/latex3/latex3/tree/main/l3packages)

@DavidCarlisle Sigh

@PabloGonzálezL I've been busy today with case changing: I hope to do option processing tomorrow