@DavidPurton I have no issue with an all-plain-text approach: people don't complain

@JosephWright Line breaks are annoying. You end up with a bunch of lines that soft break at ~60 characters and then hard break at 72 characters (unless you set paragraphs as one long line, which I don't like). Most MUAs compose in HTML and make a bad attempt at providing a plain text part. Composing in plain text and automatically providing an HTML version that looks exactly like I want gives me the best of both worlds. But it's not I hill I'm going to die on ;).

@DavidPurton I can only say that I checked what Thunderbird does by looking at the sources, and it's reasonable enough for me (though I have in the past had 'fun' with my IMAP-to-Exchange link)

@JosephWright My company disabled IMAP for Exchange (for "security" reasons). Davmail works OK to expose things locally as IMAP and LDAP.

Is there an equivalent to echo "\\showhyphens{plundered}\\bye" | tex | grep tenrm | sed 's/....tenrm.//'; rm texput.log which uses ukenglish hyphenation?

Hmm that's hard to see

echo "\\showhyphens{plundered}\\bye" | tex | grep tenrm | sed 's/....tenrm.//'; rm texput.log

@DavidPurton We have the same: I use OWL which is similar to Davmail, but it's a bit cleaner

@DavidPurton thanks for sharing :) Like @JosephWright I usually don't hear complaints about my emails as well :) And I had my issues with Davmail (was a resource hog, I switched to only starting it to fetch mail and then killing it right afterwards)

@DavidPurton Are you using format=flowed (see also joeclark.org/ffaq.html)? For me, that was a life saver to continue writing all-plain-text mails that actually display nicely wrapped.

@TeXnician format=flowed is one of those great ideas that no one bothered to support :(. Although I use NeoMutt as my primary MUA I need to be able to see my email in multiple clients (in browser and on phone). I just find that HTML is now so entrenched that Gmail and Outlook can not cope with anything else.

No that I'm against making life difficult to others. I still PGP sign my emails. I think I mainly do this out of bitterness for all the MS Office files I get sent. Which is not a great reason.

Did you know that Windows Mail can neither archive nor delete PGP/MIME signed emails :)

One of my colleagues really hates my emails

@DavidPurton :)

@DavidPurton I know, f=f is unfortunately not that well supported. My emacs mail setup does cope well with it, Thunderbird too and some of the more powerful Android apps. But yes, larger providers do not. Still, I like that I can read my own mails flowed while only sending plain-text :)

@DavidPurton :)

@JosephWright I know now why beamer breaks: as I load nameref earlier the patch for beamer in nameref is too early. I can delay the patch, but it would be better if beamer would take them over anyway

@UlrikeFischer Sure - let me know what's needed

@Skillmon What do you use?

@JosephWright I'm just preparing a PR to move this. Basically nameref only wants to allow the retrieval of the title in a few places. I use \GetTitleString, but you could change that to text_expand or similar if you want.

@DavidCarlisle oh no

@UlrikeFischer Whatever is easiest for you

github.com/latex3/fontspec

@JosephWright cloned:-)

@DavidCarlisle Here too

@JosephWright PR created. It changes also a few spaces - my editor likes to clean up ;-).

@DavidCarlisle I spotted it needed master -> main

@UlrikeFischer Can your editor also do the dishes and cook lunch?

@JosephWright yes saw that, but I cloned after (see also skype)

@UlrikeFischer I imagine we want an urgent beamer release (@samcarter)

@JosephWright :thumbsup:

@samcarter Thanks

@JosephWright The beamer v3.100 party comes closer :P

@samcarter, @UlrikeFischer Building now (reminds me I still have an l3build issue that I should discuss with @MarcelKrüger)

@JosephWright mutt, with NeoVIM as editor, msmtp to send mail and getmail to get mail :)

@JosephWright Oh, the saint for all lua problems :)

@Skillmon Ah

@Skillmon Sounds .. more complex than my setup :)

@JosephWright well if you update today I could avoid another emergency upload ;-) (but I should add a guard anyway for older beamer versions).

@UlrikeFischer I will

@JosephWright Just in time! The first bug report just popped up on stackoverflow

@samcarter Link?

@samcarter the workaround is to add \makeatletter \def\NR@nopatch@beamer{}\makeatother before the class until tomorrow.

@UlrikeFischer Thanks! I was linking them to download the file from github, but that's easier (or maybe not, I hate rmarkdown!)

@JosephWright stackoverflow.com/questions/72270593/…

@samcarter Thanks

@JosephWright the date of the version is today? Then I could add a test to nameref.

@UlrikeFischer Yes

@tush Usually by setting the PATH or by choosing a path in your GUI: what editor do you use?

lyx

@JosephWright But I also want to know how to choose when working in the cmd prompt on Windows

@tush once setup miktex has the same tex engines programmes as texlive with the same names

@tush From the command prompt, just set the PATH in Control Panel

@daleif I didn't understand you

@tush Search the Start Menu for Environmental Variables

@JosephWright Ok now where is the path i need to change?

@tush Once the PATH have been set you can just use pdflatex file.tex in the CMD as normal. There is no difference.

@daleif All right so I need to change the path via the control panel as Joseph Wright suggests. But can I choose "on the fly"?

@JosephWright Somewhere here?

@tush Yes: in PATH under system settings

@JosephWright Sorry, I can't find it

@tush You can set the PATH at the command line: set PATH=<some-location>;%PATH% will add <some-location> to the start of the PATH

@tush It says Path there: the settings are not case sensitive

How can I check what is the current path?

@tush At the command line, echo %PATH%

@tush click on path and then on "edit" and windows will show you the list.

@tush For any environmental variable on Windows, adding % at the start and end refers to the value

@JosephWright nice

@UlrikeFischer All right I see it. Thanks! But both texlive 2021 AND miktex appear there.

Which one is in use?

@tush the one which is first in the list.

I see

What about Mac? What is the procedure there?

@tush Use the TeX Live Utility - unless you want to get really hardcore

@tush I do all sorts of odd stuff, but ... I have reasons

@JosephWright Use the TeX Live Utility to do what?

@tush Pick the default TeX system: screenshot coming up

@JosephWright But is there a system wide preference that I can set up? I mean, if I have TeXlive 2021 Texlive 2022 and MikTex. How can I change the PATH on Mac?

If there is a PATH in mac at all..

@tush There is, but the way it's managed is different: graphics programs don't inherit the path that the Terminal uses

@tush You can see the one at the Terminal using echo $PATH

@tush On *nix, $ is doing the same as %...% in my Windows example

@JosephWright Yeah

joseph@palladium beamer % echo $PATH
/Users/joseph/Library/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/sbin:/Library/TeX/texbin:/usr/local/MacGPG2/bin:/opt/X11/bin:/Library/Apple/usr/bin

@JosephWright So what I want to be able to do is move MikTeX up and Texlive down in the list. And maybe sweep them again in another session.

@tush Er, I would not be using MiKTeX on macOS: that's what a Windows VM is for ;)

I see

Just asked hypothetically. I actually don't have miktex installed.

@tush I mean, you can use MiKTeX on macOS, but it's ... not so easy

@JosephWright Good that you tell me that :)

@JosephWright Thanks very much indeed!!

@tush I have like 15 TeX systems installed, so I am used to working with all the setups

@tush Just curious: why did you switch from TL to miktex? Even if I had windows, I would use texlive. Much better tested (because more users)

@samcarter MiKTeX is arguably the standard on Windows, install on-the-fly remains attractive for end users, it's got proper Windows GUI binaries, ...

@samcarter I am trying to help a colleague of mine who doesn't have TeXLive but MikTeX on his Windows machine and he doesn't have admin control. We need to check why he gets errors when trying to compile some tex files.

@tush Makes lots of sense

@JosephWright yeah, but it now already happened two times that one of my packages was not updated on miktex (and it took more than half a year until a user even noticed)

@tush ah, makes sense then

@tush is the miktex up-to-date? If not it probably doesn't make so much sense to compare this with a current miktex. Very rarely an error is miktex specific, version differences are much more current.

@UlrikeFischer Very true

@UlrikeFischer It is up to date. Actually my colleague has only Miktex, and updated, but we are not sure if his computer identifies the installation at all

@tush What errors does your colleague get?

@samcarter biblatex.sty not found and expl.sty not found, although all packages are installed

@tush then look in the log-file. That will give you much more info than a test on another pc.

@UlrikeFischer All right then I should ask him to send me this file.

@tush does he have a portable installation?

No. I think that no. I don't know what it is actually.

We struggle a bit at the moment because he doesn't have admin premissions. So we need to ask the IT guy to give us permissions to install update packages.

Now when I think of it, I guess we can just reinstall the tex distribution (whether it is texlive or miktex) in any user directory, isn't it? I mean, in a directory where my colleague has permissions

@JosephWright Do you work with LyX some of the time? If yes, then how do you tell LyX which TeX system to use?

@tush No, only when looking at user issues I'm afraid

@tush Other than for testing, I just use 'latest TeX Live' (and I'm on pre-test from the day it's out, so I really do mean latest)

Ok. Then I will ask it in the lyx mailing list

@tush yes. But I wouldn't mix a admin miktex with a user miktex. Imho this only adds to the confusion. If you want a local tex better use texlive.

@UlrikeFischer He is an academic member. Maybe we should ask the IT guy to install texlive for all users?

@UlrikeFischer Yes, defo

@JosephWright defo=definitely?

@tush Well perhaps, but as @UlrikeFischer says a 'personal' TeX Live would be my choice

@tush Yup

So I should tell him to install texlive just for himself in a user permissions directory? For example C:/Users/user_name/texlive2021?

@tush If it's in accord with local policy, it would be my plan

@JosephWright I think it is okay with the policy.

ooh teh policy

@JosephWright By the way, if we try to update a package through the package manager, whether it is miktex or texlive, is the package manager going to have trouble updating the different files because of permissions? Maybe something that the antivirus softwares and/or the anti malware softwares would try to block?

@tush That's one reason for a per-user install in this case: your colleague will have write permission to the installation

@tush If you can install, you can update: we have on our work PCs no right to even run software that was not installed by IT (so no USB installations, etc.)

@tush I guess I'd be tempted to use a TeXLive ISO download in that case: get a once-a-year full installation

@tush a user install wouldn't change the connection security imho. If he want to install he would need a local repository.

Ok. We will see tomorrow when I meet him. Thank you so much for your time Ulrike and Joseph!

:/ I find the ukenglish hyphenation rules strange. Why does thun-der hyphenate, but thundered does not?

@DavidPurton Ask OUP

ha

"Now I’ve checked things pretty carefully and I think TeX is 'fully debugged.'" (August 29, 1979)

@DavidCarlisle Are you an anti-\ell og:er? :P

twitter.com/aroundthehills/status/1526518557365919746

^^^ The Queen now has an oyster card :)

quantamagazine.org/…

@JosephWright You should add the last sentence from this article as an answer to tex.stackexchange.com/questions/17502/… :)

@samcarter Leslie's always been clear on that I think :)

@samcarter I can't install the tikzlings with l3build. It errors on the local handle = io.popen("git describe --tags $(git rev-list --tags --max-count=1)")

@mickep no I helpfully supplied the right markup to get ℓog if that's what you want:-)

@UlrikeFischer I don't use l3build to install it, just for tagging and ctan upload.

@samcarter after disabling everything that errorred I could use it.

@UlrikeFischer Anything I should look at?

@samcarter I notice that no-one has reported any siunitx issues for at least a week - I'm worrying :)

@JosephWright ... probably just me using windows incompatible syntax in local handle = io.popen("git describe --tags $(git rev-list --tags --max-count=1)")

@JosephWright no, I don't think that it has anything to do with l3build. The build.lua of the tikzlings uses things that are a bit system specific like a git call, and it requires a private lua file.

@UlrikeFischer Ah, right

@samcarter the require{"build-private.lua") errors too, and then the call to the upload variables.

@JosephWright If you say something like this, a storm of bugs will arrive soon :)

@samcarter Ah, yes, you are expecting execution rather than using two steps and a variable

@samcarter In all seriousness, I would like to know that the multi-uncertainty code is working before I start on asymmetric ones

@samcarter you could hide some things in a condition true only for you: e.g. if x = require("build-private-lua") and then if x ...

@UlrikeFischer We had a feature request for something like this but automated ;)

@samcarter I suspect that almost everything that was a v2.x -> v3.x is now sorted, so bugs will be 'really' new

@JosephWright I played around a bit when you released the new version and it was working nicely :) (but I have not yet used in real-work-things, because I'm using TL2019 there to have a stable environment)

@samcarter Oh, yes, I think it works, but users ...

@UlrikeFischer or add a comment at the top "% don't use if your are not me" :) Just trying to understand: what is the advantage for a user to use l3build for the tikzlings? The sty files are all there, nothing needs building...

@samcarter I think it's 'common workflow': l3build is used for quite a few projects now, so git checkout XXX && cd XXX && l3build install lets you try out the dev code easily

@samcarter well I need to put them somewhere where tex can find them if I want to give Peter a shirt ;-). And using l3build install/l3build uninstall is much faster then copy&paste or adding/removing texinputs.

@DavidCarlisle Oh no, I prefer łog.

@mickep Polish for \wlog?

@JosephWright Nice!!

@JosephWright Hehe, indeed

@UlrikeFischer ahhh! I'm just checking them out in my texmf tree -- didn't think of that.

@samcarter That's tricky if you want to be able to 'quickly' reset to the 'user release' tree - something @UlrikeFischer and I do ... quite a bit

@JosephWright yes, I'm using git to navigate back to the tag of the previous release. But I imagine with working on more than one package a the same time, this isn't really comfortable for you

@samcarter It's always more risky, as what is in TL/MiKTeX might be out-of-sync with what you send, so like @UlrikeFischer I much prefer install/uninstall (plus most of my own code is in .dtx format)

@JosephWright I don't use .dtx for this very reason :)

@samcarter I mostly use .dtx files which also work as .sty files to make it easier for users to test, but for more complicated stuff that tends to get ugly.

@JosephWright The last paragraph is nice. He has moved on...

@mickep He's never had an 'official' position, in the same way he's never confirmed where 'LaTeX' as a name comes from

@JosephWright my main "user release" tree is currently miktex. In texlive there are too many trees and development packages currently for real safe tests. Which reminds me: there is an open issue in l3build which I really would like to see resolved: an environment variable L3BUILD_INSTALL_TEXMF so that it not longer uses texmfhome.

@MarcelKrüger One of the Runge-Kutta-Fehlberg versions implemented today in lua/mp. Seems to work rather well. Need some things like exiting conditions and so.

@mickep (The current team favour LAY-tekh, at least if you took a straw poll of how we all pronounce it)

@JosephWright Oh, kind of secret.

Maybe he is a duck like @PauloCereda

@MarcelKrüger Interesting approach!

@MarcelKrüger Part of the original design, of course, but falls down if you want anything other than 1-1 setups

@JosephWright Hehe, good to know! I often (when speaking to Swedes) use some kind of fake Swedish version, "lah-teks".

@UlrikeFischer Ah, yes: we could do

@mickep I was talking to someone with German background recently, and for them I went with LAH-tekh as I know that's the common approach there (but not what one FMi says)

@JosephWright I can almost hear the germans at the department saying lah-tekh.

@JosephWright Imho I normally say Lah-tekh.

@UlrikeFischer I know :)

@UlrikeFischer I notice Frank's pronunciation as it's non-standard for someone who's German - I suspect he adapts if speaking in German rather than in English

@UlrikeFischer I like your pronunciation of expl3 - suggests expl-DRY as in 'Don't Repeat Yourself'

@JosephWright numbers are really a problem, I always switch to german if I don't pay attention.

@UlrikeFischer Honestly, I think it's quite a clever pronunciation as it promotes the library aspect of expl3: makes is sound less like we ended up with the name by accident :)

@JosephWright there's also a video youtu.be/rkZzg7Vowao

@daleif Oooh

@JosephWright Raymond Luxury Yacht

@PauloCereda :)

Have anyone here met Leslie?

@mickep only via email

@mickep ooh

@mickep -- Several times. Regarding the pronunciation of LaTeX, in the early 1980s, he have a talk about LaTeX at a DECUS meeting in San Francisco, When someone asked how to pronounce LaTeX, he said "la-TeX or lay-TeX; anyyhing but ell-ay-TeX." I was also in the room when he turned LaTeX over to Frank Mittelbach and Rainer Schöpf. (Apologies for dropping names.)

@barbarabeeton ooh Los Angeles :)

@barbarabeeton :)

@mickep No .. just seen mails to the team from him

@JosephWright -- Given his pride over distinguishing programming from coding, and typing from writing, I'm really surprised at some of the decisions he made in LaTeX, which make later decisions by other people very difficult. (My most unfavorite is thinking of everything as a list.)

@barbarabeeton Well he had an aim in mind, and that was largely practical - I suspect that Lamport likely sees programming in LaTeX a bit like DEK see it for TeX - not the primary aim, which is strictly typesetting

@barbarabeeton That was an 'interesting' optimisation (and impacts on e.g. tagging)

@JosephWright -- It also completely screws up things like insetting something like wrapfig within a block of text. Also presentation of theorems and proofs; some really nasty code in AMS document classes to avoid problems.

@barbarabeeton Interesting, thanks for sharing!

@JosephWright So he did not disappear totally from the tex world?

@barbarabeeton Is that something that is impossible to change/improve? Too deep down?

@mickep -- I think it's too deep down, but Frank M would be much better qualified to answer that. In any case, making that kind of change would likely not be backward compatible, and would foul up a substantial body of existing documents.

@barbarabeeton ok, so a no-go

@mickep -- Sadly so, at least in my opinion.

@barbarabeeton in standard latex yes. But with the tagging project we can add new interfaces if \DocumentMetadata{} is used. That doesn't affect older documents.

In other news, bought my first Ryzen processor.

@UlrikeFischer -- But persuading AMS to change anything is just about hopeless. A standoff.

@mickep He very occasionally asks things as a user - but Frank I think talks to him occassionally

@mickep We are looking at this in the context of tagging

@barbarabeeton well it will be their call. But if they want tagging and accessible document they will have to consider changes.

@UlrikeFischer Exactly - and they will need that

@JosephWright Oh, nice.

@UlrikeFischer -- This is probably heresy, but I suspect they would prefer to first farm out their journal production to a service bureau. The "vocabulary" of math wouldn't change -- mathematicians simply wouldn't accept that -- but the archival manuscript would not necessarily any longer be LaTeX.

@barbarabeeton Quite possibly true

@mickep yes

@barbarabeeton I hope that will not happen. With other publishers, who probably already use service bureaus, the quality of typesetting is not optimal.

@DavidCarlisle So, you have the met-the-Leslie badge.

@mickep oh, I thought he got the met-the-david one.

@DavidCarlisle He did!

But as far as I know he is not here, so it wouldn't really be meaningful to mention it.

@mickep Indeed

@barbarabeeton My experience at ACS suggest there would be some pain ...

@JosephWright -- Pain for whom? The authors or the publisher/society? (Or both?)

@JosephWright Since you are the unit guru, it could be interesting to hear that also the units have become a (context) math class (Not sure if it has unwanted side effects). So, typing 0.1 \unit{Newton meter} = 100 \unit{g m^2/s^2} inside math, one get (here with inter-atom spaces shown):

@barbarabeeton Authors, in my experience

@mickep Interesting - I've been asked to do 'ConTeXt-like' parsing, and it's on the to-do list

@JosephWright I did not know that the parsing was different.

@mickep I wonder if Hans noticed that formally it's a product not a space ...

@mickep I deal currently with \newton\metre or g.m^{2}/s^{2}, but don't try to 'read' the latter beyond turning . or a space into an inter-unit space

@JosephWright What is a product and not a space? You mean between the number and the unit?

@mickep Yes - because it's the product of the unit and the value

@mickep As you can do e.g. '_E_/V' (potential in volts)

@mickep Hans is clearly having fun :)

@JosephWright I don't know what the . there should mean. (Sorry, I should read up more in your unit manual)

@JosephWright Indeed, I think that is coherent with the example above. (I think I prefer to not have the cdot there)

@mickep Inherited from the SIunits package, either a . or a space can be used to represent 'the product of two units' in 'literal input' mode

@JosephWright Ah, clever.

@mickep I did wonder about the \cdot: presumably configurable

@JosephWright It is, \setupunit[separator=medium] I think, to have a space.

@JosephWright I do not understand the _E_/V.

@mickep E is potential, which might have a value of say 1.23 V; in a plot, you have the axes in pure numbers so need to divide 1.23 V by V to give just 1.23, which is what you plot

@mickep See e.g. page 72 of the current manual

@JosephWright Ah, I see. Thank you.

@JosephWright You mentioned something related to l3build earlier. Is there some issue I should look at or is it something else?

@MarcelKrüger Try building beamer for CTAN on *nix :) There's something up with copying the examples - I think due to the - in the directory names

@MarcelKrüger I would love to work out how to make it work, but I'm missing something about how cp works compared to xcopy (which will happily copy a directory tree)

@JosephWright l3build ctan seems to work here (Arch Linux, TL2022) and the archive seems to include the examples.

@MarcelKrüger Really? Perhaps it's mac-specific then .. I'll check my Linux VM

@MarcelKrüger Interesting ...

@MarcelKrüger I'm double-checking I'm right that this doesn't work on macOS

@MarcelKrüger Probably means I should sort out building on GitHub

@MarcelKrüger I'll have to check how to set up releases, I guess :)

@MarcelKrüger Hmm, seems to be fixed: must have been sorted by your updates

@UlrikeFischer I hope everything problematic is now hidden behind the conditional github.com/samcarter/tikzlings/commit/… Sorry for the problems!

@JosephWright have you somewhere an example how to setup tests involving biber?

@UlrikeFischer Er, yes I think so - I did that for biblatex

function runtest_tasks(name)
  return "biber -q " .. name
end

@UlrikeFischer ^^^ I think that's basically it ...

@samcarter Looks like I can finally automate building beamer releases - I just have to remember what I need to do (unless @MarcelKrüger reminds me ;)]

@JosephWright yeah!

@JosephWright ok, biber runs. But how can I get following pdflatex runs?

@JosephWright You should mostly just have to copy github.com/latex3/latex2e/blob/develop/.github/workflows/… (and remove the email stuff), then everything should work (unless biber has special requirements)

@UlrikeFischer Should just be a question of setting the number of runs you want

@UlrikeFischer checkruns = 2

@JosephWright just trying

@UlrikeFischer Cool

@UlrikeFischer ??

@JosephWright not sure. The result it not correct, but it could also be the file.

@JosephWright looks ok.

@UlrikeFischer Phew

@JosephWright it is slow but it is because the class is such a monster.

@samcarter that works fine now!

@UlrikeFischer Ah right yes

@MarcelKrüger 'And sort out all the packages'

@UlrikeFischer Thanks for testing!

@samcarter github.com/josephwright/beamer/actions/runs/2341600951 - we are good to automate the next time there's a beamer release

@JosephWright Nice! Thanks a lot!