TeX, LaTeX and Friends

@PauloCereda not so much a secret but now you will worry if they don't arrive ;-) It is only a small package and I don't have a tracing number, but I put every number from you on it that I know ....

Paulo Cereda

@UlrikeFischer ooh <3

@UlrikeFischer we ducks are very good at finding secrets :)

David Carlisle

8:08 AM

@JosephWright the !# don't work anyway since we stopped supporting texlua build.lua as a command interface.

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle For build.lua, yes, but not for l3buil.lua I think

David Carlisle

@JosephWright ah yes can't be many doing ./l3build.lua as a command though, and I assume it doesn't work on windows anyway?

@PauloCereda double helping

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle oh no

Ulrike Fischer

8:52 AM

and for breakfast a new easybook update with three in ctan incoming ...

2

samcarter

9:04 AM

@LaTeXereXeTaL oh, don't tempt me :)

Just got an accept 4.5 years after answering :)

Joseph Wright

@samcarter :)

@UlrikeFischer Well of course

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer I wonder if ctan have asked them not to do that or if they just accept them all

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle I am surprised they (CTAN) don't complain

Ulrike Fischer

9:23 AM

@DavidCarlisle I wonder about that too.

Paulo Cereda

Let's create the easybook bingo

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda 客满

Marcel Krüger

@DavidCarlisle On Linux at least, the l3build file in the binary dir is a symlink to l3build.lua, so removing that line would break all uses of l3build.

David Carlisle

9:42 AM

@MarcelKrüger ah so it is (@JosephWright)

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle I'd seen :)

@MarcelKrüger Thanks for the tdsdirs comments: I'm trying it out at the moment (seems to break making the documentation ... which is a bit awkward)

Marcel Krüger

9:56 AM

@JosephWright That's unfortunate, but not all that surprising. Probably it could be worked around by adding a texmf.cnf to add the tex directory directly to the search path, but I'm wondering if there is a better interface for this. We could add a variant of installfiles which is available only during typesetting / checking, but that would probably run into the same issue the current installation triggers.

Joseph Wright

@MarcelKrüger I'm working out exactly where the issue is: it's not obvious as the compilation takes ages

@MarcelKrüger We are picking off the issues so overall I'm quite pleased

Next, the latex3 issues ... there are rather more of them

Marcel Krüger

10:15 AM

@JosephWright You could start by closing github.com/latex3/latex3/issues/743

samcarter

10:30 AM

@JosephWright Is it by design that the new theme of texdev.net does no longer have scroll bars?

Joseph Wright

10:47 AM

@samcarter I've taken a standard theme, but I am tweaking it: perhaps one to do here

samcarter

@JosephWright if this is by design, I ought to repair my mouse scroll wheel :)

CarLaTeX

TEX Gyre Pagella is a very beautiful font

2

samcarter

@CarLaTeX Indeed!

CarLaTeX

@samcarter Yay!

Joseph Wright

@samcarter I'll check the CSS

samcarter

10:52 AM

@JosephWright Thanks in the name of everybody with a half-death mouse for checking! :)

Joseph Wright

@samcarter Try now

samcarter

@JosephWright Nice! Thank you so much!

Joseph Wright

@samcarter No probs: I've fine-tuned just to enable the vertical one

David Carlisle

@JosephWright no scroll here still

samcarter

bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-59387182

^^^ now I don't get the image of a Frodo singing "Let It Be" while dropping the ring into the mountain out of my head

Joseph Wright

11:11 AM

@DavidCarlisle Hmm, seems overflow-y doesn't override overflow in the way I'd expect

David Carlisle

@JosephWright I think the problem is that the inner div isn't overflowing, it is making the outer main div larger but overflow:hidden on the outer div. You need a fixed height container on the inner div so that it overflows, but not sure how to do that with the newish grid layout

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Er, well I set .site-body as overflow: visible and it works, but if I do the same with overflow-y: visible it doesn't ...

David Carlisle

@JosephWright yes you can put a scrollbar on the page (site-body) but don't you just want it on the listings div?

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle If you add the bar to .site-main, it's in the wrong place ...

David Carlisle

@JosephWright yes that's what I mean. currently you can only have scrollbars on the outer page edge as it is just that that is overflowing, the inner listings isn't overflowing it is making site-main larger.

Joseph Wright

11:23 AM

@DavidCarlisle Well yes, but why does setting overflow: visible at the outer level work but overflow-y: visible not? I'd naïvely expect that overflow is simply a meta-key for overflow-x and overflow-y

David Carlisle

@JosephWright it is (I'm just looking in the dom inspector, so a bit hard to get an overview, I may look at your css later but not now:-)

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle I'm checking in the inspector too :)

David Carlisle

@JosephWright I think you want auto (or scroll) not visible visible just makes the text show rather than being clipped

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Er, for me setting overflow: visible does the right thing other than it includes the x-bar, whereas auto does nothing and scroll buts weird bars in the wrong places

@DavidCarlisle CSS is weird

samcarter

Sorry for causing so much trouble!

David Carlisle

11:31 AM

@JosephWright set height to 100% (of available screen) then you get a scrollbar on div class=listing

Joseph Wright

@samcarter It';s OK

@DavidCarlisle Hmm, yes it works but why does setting the y-overflow alone not work when setting the overflow does? It's not at all logical!!

David Carlisle

@JosephWright on the listing class neither works for me (which is what I would expect as it doesn't overflow unless you force it to overflow by restricting its height)

@samcarter picture mode layout is easier

samcarter

@DavidCarlisle obviously!

David Carlisle

11:59 AM

@JosephWright @UlrikeFischer meeting?

@yo' how's America?

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Yup

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle yes comming

yo'

12:33 PM

@DavidCarlisle it's in the wrong timezone!

Faheem Mitha

12:46 PM

Does \typeout not expand \NewDocumentCommand? E.g.

\documentclass[12pt]{article}
\begin{document}
\NewDocumentCommand{\fixx}{}{FIXX}
%\def\fixx{FIXX}
%\newcommand{\fixx}{FIXX}
\typeout{The command value is \fixx}
\end{document}

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha Not expandable

Faheem Mitha

Both \def and \newcommand expand. \NewDocumentCommand doesn't.

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha Yes: it's \protected\def

Faheem Mitha

Presumably this is by design, but as so often happens with TeX, I was not expecting it.

@JosephWright So, if I want it to be expanded, what do I do? And why is \typeout prevented from expanding it?

I just want it to be expanded for testing purposes, of course. Nothing deeper than that.

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha Use \NewExpandableDocumentCommand

David Carlisle

12:49 PM

@FaheemMitha commands defined that way are not expandable typeout can't change that

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha The whole point of \protected commands is that they might 'explode' in an expansion context

Faheem Mitha

@JosephWright OK. I see it in the xparse manual.

@JosephWright Explode, as in some kind of infinite loop?

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha Can go all sorts of ways

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha arbitrary low level errors: fragile command in a moving argument

Faheem Mitha

Is \NewExpandableDocumentCommand safe for basic user usage, then?

Should I switch to using that? Or not?

Joseph Wright

12:51 PM

@FaheemMitha It's the same as \newcommand in that sense

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha well it's slower and more limited but not unsafe

Faheem Mitha

I sometimes do want to expand out my macros to test them, of course.

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha It's deliberately got a longer name: most real document commands should be \protected

@FaheemMitha You can always \tracingall or \show the code

Faheem Mitha

@JosephWright But if I want to print them out for testing, do I have other options?

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha \meaning will print the definition

Joseph Wright

12:52 PM

@FaheemMitha If you have something that prints 'text' in an expansion context, it's basically a shortcut and I'd stick to \newcommand\foo{definition}

Faheem Mitha

@JosephWright In this case, it's a wrapper for a Lua function.

I just want to run the Lua function and return the value.

I guess I could call the function directly...

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha I'd use \newcommand or (exceptionally) \NewExpandableDocumentCommand, then

Faheem Mitha

@JosephWright For a Lua function wrapper?

Is \newcommand preferable to \NewExpandableDocumentCommand?

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha Yes: they will always be expandable and I don't think are going to have weird optional arguments

@FaheemMitha I guess I'd use \newcommand for 'shortcuts' (text or something similar), and \NewExpandableDocumentCommand once there is 'TeX programming' involved

Faheem Mitha

One reason I switched to \NewDocumentCommand is that the error messages are better.

At least, that's the impression I got.

@JosephWright I'll try \NewExpandableDocumentCommand, I guess.

David Carlisle

12:56 PM

@FaheemMitha ?

Faheem Mitha

Thank you.

@DavidCarlisle Was that unclear?

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha error messages

Faheem Mitha

@DavidCarlisle Yes, I thought/think that \NewDocumentCommand produces better error messages than, say \newcommand. Or has more error checking.

Something like that. I forget.

David Carlisle

@FaheemMitha not clear which error messages you mean. if you have a syntax error in the declaration you get an error, there is more syntax to NewDocumentCommand so more ways to generate an error by getting it wrong, but otherwise the only error is to define something that's already defined

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha It does for argument grabbing

Faheem Mitha

1:02 PM

@JosephWright Maybe that's what I was thinking of.

@DavidCarlisle I forget the details. I remember I did a comparison at one point.

Some relevant discussion here:

13

Q: On unprotecting (expanding) \protected macros (or, "the space after command name")

I quite often come into a situation, where I need to obtain some text produced by a package macro as a string, like in say: Expanding (edef) a lipsum command? How do I "unprotect" an argument? One thing I bump into here, is trying to \typeout the macros in question, and typically observing a...

The poster pretty much summed up my confusion.

> \protected stops expansion in \edef and \write and (unlike the LaTeX protection mechanism) it's not so easy to take off once it is applied.

I suppose that \typeout is basically the same as \write.

@DavidCarlisle You have lots of blank space in that answer, for some reason. An editor artifact?

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha He had a 'teh' until a second ago ;)

Faheem Mitha

@JosephWright Yes, I just fixed that. Trivial, but I hate typos.

Sometimes people don't like small edits because of the churn.

samcarter

1:20 PM

@FaheemMitha Is it a typo or his trademark?

Ulrike Fischer

@FaheemMitha teh is not a typo!

4

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer github.com/latex3/latex3/commit/…

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright good. Don't we need after todays discussion also something that creates the switch?

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer We do, yes

@UlrikeFischer It was in the code anyway :)

David Carlisle

2:10 PM

@FaheemMitha probably just picked up a few extra lines when I psted the console output

barbara beeton

3:29 PM

@yo' -- I get jet lag going into daylight saving time. Going east is worse than going west. You'll be away from home just long enough to get the worst of both. But I hope you enjoy yourself anyway.

Paulo Cereda

3:44 PM

@samcarter wait what youtube.com/watch?v=c3BUUEe55Tw

samcarter

@PauloCereda that looks rather strange

Paulo Cereda

@samcarter it does

@samcarter ooh youtube.com/watch?v=hFEFdufsj50

samcarter

@PauloCereda Oh, much less strange :)

Paulo Cereda

@samcarter quack

@samcarter youtube.com/watch?v=1VO8ESf_yQI

samcarter

@PauloCereda perfectly normal to see a duck wearing trainers :)

Paulo Cereda

3:53 PM

@samcarter We ducks are very good at running marathons. :)

samcarter

@PauloCereda what a clever and eloquent duck!

Paulo Cereda

@samcarter "I am just happy to be there" that's a clever duck :)

samcarter

@PauloCereda And there was also a bunny! Was that @Skillmon ?

Paulo Cereda

@samcarter ooh

Ulrich Diez

4:21 PM

Please vote to re-open https://tex.stackexchange.com/q/623916/118714 so it can be answered properly or be linked to another appropriate answer. The question is about getting dvipsnames-option to work. The linked answer is about CSS-style-sheet-color-specifications.

Ulrike Fischer

@UlrichDiez imho the question should get an example first. Without code it is quite hard to guess why dvipsnames doesn't work.

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Won't be a problem much longer ;)

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright ? Oh you mean an option clash? Possible.

Ulrich Diez

@UlrikeFischer That's why in my edit I suggested linking another appropriate answer. E.g., one about option-clash due to already having the package loaded with the documentclass, which, e.g., beamer does.

@UlrikeFischer And if it is not xcolor but color, the option usenames is needed as well. A novice using Overleaf might not grasp/see all error-messages due to lack of knowledge about where to click to have them displayed. :-)

Ulrike Fischer

4:38 PM

@UlrichDiez no, I think it is wrong to close it as an duplicate. The question is very unclear and even if some have crystal balls it is better to close as unclear and force the user to show some code and log-file.

Ulrich Diez

@UlrikeFischer Besides this, I wrote an answer mentioning these things and listing all color-names defined in dvips' color.pro right before the question was closed and would like to post it. ;->

Ulrike Fischer

@UlrichDiez aha ;-). Sorry but look at the question: The user obviously knows only very little about latex and packages. Do you think an answer telling them about color.pro and dvips when you even don't know which engine they use is helpful and suitable for a user on this level?

Rmano

@UlrikeFischer I voted for re-opining and for closing for lack of clarity. It could be anything, even a misspelt package or color name...

2

Ulrich Diez

@UlrikeFischer The questioner mentioned the dvipsnames-option and color-names like "ForrestGreen". So I think providing an example which shows the commands for colored text and which also displays all the dvipsnames-colors with their names might be helpful. :-)

@Rmano I thibnk that is the right course of action. :-)

Rmano

@UlrichDiez \begin{ad} "ForrestGreen" (and not "ForestGreen, but the spelling was in the original set) is available in my xkcdcolors package... \end{ad}

Ulrich Diez

4:54 PM

Thanks to everybody.

@Rmano The spelling-error definitely was on my side. It is "ForestGreen", without the additional "r". But I got it right in my answer.

Rmano

@UlrichDiez Yes, I suppose --- that was just a joke (but xkcdForrestGreen is in the original database from Randall's site, so I left it as it was).

Ulrich Diez

@Rmano I'm in a state of mind where I'm glad I didn't write "ForrestGump." :-)

Thanks again to everyone. I'm going to log off now to take the next batch of painkillers. :-) I wish a nice day to everybody. Please stay well.

Plergux

@UlrichDiez What colour is Forrest Gump? :þ

Paulo Cereda

5:09 PM

@Plergux Run Forrest, Run!

Plergux

@PauloCereda Whut? Is "run" a colour? O.o

Paulo Cereda

@Plergux ooh is mayonnaise an instrument

^^ SpongeBob

Plergux

@PauloCereda No, Patrick. Mayonnaise is not an instrument *squidward grumbles

Paulo Cereda

@Plergux <3

@PhelypeOleinik ^^

Faheem Mitha

6:09 PM

I was wondering how best to understand this example code.

\RequirePackage{iftex}
\RequireLuaTeX
\documentclass[12pt]{article}
\begin{filecontents}[overwrite,noheader]{typeout2.lua}
function foo()
   return "FOO"
end
return {foo=foo}
\end{filecontents}
\directlua{typeout2 = require "typeout2"}
\NewExpandableDocumentCommand{\foo}{}
{
  \directlua{typeout2.foo()}
}
\begin{document}
\typeout{FUNCTION FOO IS \foo}
\foo
\end{document}

In this case, the value that the Lua function returns is not reflected in output of the \typeout macro.

However, if one replaces the returned value with a call to tex.sprint, then it does show up in the \typeout output.

I guess the returned value isn't written to "TeX" by default, whatever that means.

I don't know if this qualifies as a suitable question for the site. If you think it does, let me know.

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha Lua return values don't 'go' anywhere unless you use them: if you run the code in Lua, it won't print the return value at all unless you print() it

Faheem Mitha

6:25 PM

@JosephWright And sticking the function inside \typeout presumably isn't equivalent to printing. Does \typeout only notice the Lua code if one uses tex.sprint or similar?

God Must Be Crazy

Can we simplify the following

\usepackage[dvisvgm]{animate}
\usepackage[dvisvgm]{graphicx}

with

\usepackage[dvisvgm]{animate,graphicx}

or

\documentclass[dvisvgm]{...}
\usepackage{animate,graphicx}

?

Joseph Wright

@FaheemMitha As far as TeX is concerned, there is nothing happening unless Lua sends something back: you need tex.sprint or similar

Faheem Mitha

@JosephWright Yes, that's what I figured. But it's easy to forget.

Ulrike Fischer

@GodMustBeCrazy the last should work.

God Must Be Crazy

@UlrikeFischer OK. Thanks. I am trying... :-)

Faheem Mitha

8:10 PM

I'm not sure what feature of pdflatex is being used here. but does this work with lualatex too?

166

A: Passing parameters to a document

Here's a hacky way, probably this is the wrong way :). Instead of passing a filename, you can pass a sequence of commands. So in particular, you could do something like pdflatex "\def\ishandout{1} \input{foo.tex}" which defines the macro \ishandout (to be 1) and then reads foo.tex. And then, ...

If it's not clear, I'm referring to

pdflatex "\def\ishandout{1} \input{foo.tex}"

Oh, and can you also pass it via latexmk?

Joseph Wright

8:29 PM

@FaheemMitha Works with any engine

David Carlisle

8:48 PM

@JosephWright sorry massive PR for you to review

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle :)

@DavidCarlisle Meanwhile, I'm working out whether .validity:n goes into l3keys or ltkeys (which means accessing internals ...)

David Carlisle

@JosephWright as I mentioned on the call I think I tried that originally and was getting failures on windows, but I think that may have been when I was using curl all on the commandline but before integrating into l3build had already switched to always using a file and passing the options to curl that way to avoid command line escaping differences

@JosephWright may as well be l3 I think

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Yes, I think so to on balance: I'd rather not access package internals

David Carlisle

@JosephWright also every time you make a difference at that level you have to document that its not just a thin wrapper around the l3keys version

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Indeed: I'm probably going with all of the .<name> stuff in l3keys, with only the \Declare... in ltkeys

David Carlisle

9:06 PM

@JosephWright I'll add the doc in a bit

Joseph Wright

9:23 PM

@DavidCarlisle Thanks

@DavidCarlisle I'm busy with keys - going to be exciting when this lands

samcarter

9:45 PM

Keys are easy:

\documentclass{standalone}
\usepackage{fontawesome5}
\begin{document}
\faKey
\end{document}

Joseph Wright

@samcarter Oh, you wait for what I'm up to ...

samcarter

@JosephWright Looking forward to it!

David Carlisle

@samcarter \usepackage{keyval} done.

Joseph Wright

10:02 PM

@DavidCarlisle :)

samcarter

10:48 PM

@DavidCarlisle no picture mode key? :)

David Carlisle

@samcarter \usepackage[tikz=no]{pict2e}

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$TeX - LaTeX$ TeX, LaTeX and Friends