12:33 AM
@Skillmon @PauloCereda I am TeXing fanatic, eh fantastic chemical stuff right now....
See a very tiny excerpt:
...
.......
...........
Does one actually say in English:
"XYZ became superfluous"?
In the meaning: "XYZ is no longer important."

2 hours later…
2:33 AM
@DavidCarlisle Thanks! I asked an actual question and got a good answer and explanation. Bit more complicated than I had thought.

3 hours later…
5:12 AM
@cis I would not use superfluous to mean no longer important. I would read "XYZ became superfluous" as "XYZ is no longer necessary or needed". Although it might help to know what XYZ is.

2 hours later…
6:50 AM
@DavidPurton yes my guess above of two catcode 12 end of line wasn't quite right it was two catcode 13 you needed, but same idea:-)

7:16 AM
Re-watching Frank's talks from tex.stackexchange.com/questions/602379/…

2 hours later…
9:31 AM
@cis I would say "ignore XYZ, there are no elements there" ;-).
...I start suspecting that there is an inverse proportional law between how much work you throw at an answer and how much upvotes it gets... ;-P
2

@Rmano definitely. Look at my top scoring answers.

@DavidCarlisle @Rmano or my top scoring question

@CarLaTeX Your question was "how do you make a pineapple pizza?" I assume?

9:46 AM
@Rmano ... and exponential relation between votes and how many colours were used in the screenshots :)

@DavidCarlisle no roasted ducks?

3 hours later…
1:07 PM
I propose the following shortcuts in the style of i18n and a11y: y1s, n0o, and for @PauloCereda: o1h. And I almost forgot, for @DavidCarlisle: l3h
2

@JosephWright version 16 tomorrow?
2

@yo' the general idea of shortcuts is that they are shorter than the thing they are cutting

@DavidCarlisle said an Emacs person?

@UlrikeFischer Almost certainly

2:06 PM
@UlrikeFischer Off to CTAN

@yo' o1h
@yo' LOL <3

2:39 PM
@PauloCereda I saved this one for you to answer, as I know you would love to mention the editor with the original and greatest read-eval-print-loop tex.stackexchange.com/q/602487

@DavidCarlisle what is "repl"?

@DavidCarlisle 'Read Evaluate Print' - an interactive session such as pdftex \relax at the Command Prompt

@JosephWright yes I did wonder if that's what the OP meant, but I'm not sure

@DavidCarlisle It's what REPL means ...
@DavidCarlisle Indeed: want something in the PDF, no idea what it is

@JosephWright not an interactive lisp session built in to your editor?
;; This buffer is for text that is not saved, and for Lisp evaluation.
;; To create a file, visit it with C-x C-f and enter text in its buffer.

(+ 1 2 3)
6

(cos pi)
-1.0

2:54 PM
@MarcelKrüger Nice X-ray plan - I'd call it \shelxstream myself ;) (shelx.uni-goettingen.de, older than TeX)

@JosephWright The name shelx sounds like one of these modern sh replacements

@JosephWright should we have got this in to the last -dev release github.com/latex3/latex2e/pull/342/files
UnIcode Caligraphic and Script, Finally:
@MarcelKrüger ^ something for luamml to play with:-)

3:17 PM
@DavidCarlisle For non unicode-math fonts the design already takes this into account and just needs appropriate lookup tables. The same could be done for unicode-math, but first unicode-math has to decide what to do with these.
@DavidCarlisle Do you know of any test fonts which actually use these?

@MarcelKrüger is it expected that the fonts actually implement this internally or do you have to see teh variation selector and then dig out the alternative glyph?

ooh more siunitx

@MarcelKrüger No I wonder if Murray will get it in to Cambria Math, He was pushing for this...

@DavidCarlisle In general, OpenType contains special cmap tables for variation selectors and these should be used inside of the font. For TeX in particular, we still need to see the variation selector and dig out the alternative glyph based on this since the default support for variation selectors does not apply in math mode. I have some code for this somewhere (TM).

@DavidCarlisle Ideally yes, perhaps for -dev 2

3:29 PM
@MarcelKrüger ah OK thanks I think that sounds vaguely familiar so I may have known that once:-) So in theory you could support this in luatex even if the fonts don't change (if they have the two styles as stylistic variants for example so the glyphs are "somewhere") ?
@JosephWright unless we get braver and rip out the whole of color.sty and make it a wrapper for l3color

@DavidCarlisle Might be a bit much ;)

@PauloCereda Ping

@DavidCarlisle Right, but I would expect this to be mostly a output concern, I would expect I to be pretty unlikely that people start using 𝒜︀ and 𝒜︁ as LaTeX input.

@JosephWright Petra: oh no, the siunitx bloke again!
@AlanMunn pong :)

@PauloCereda Of course, I just fixed a bug that came in after the upload

3:36 PM
@JosephWright Can we blame @UlrikeFischer? :)

@MarcelKrüger sure but you may get that in conversions from Word to LaTex, and also if it worked then logically \mathscr{A} and \mathcal{A} would be defined to produce the variant selector pairs wouldn't they?
@MarcelKrüger remind me to come back and look at the transcript here in a years time and see if those A look different:-)

@DavidCarlisle Mapping \mathscr{A} to the glyph described by the variation selector will probably work by a different mechanic than mapping literal input of the variation selector. (Maybe a separate family for changing the default style? Or mathcodes representing internal glyph codes?) Something for Will to think about...

3:54 PM
@DavidCarlisle Seriously, we need to work out if the change is safe: I worry about odd colour models with xcolor

@JosephWright yes

@DavidCarlisle I think I got most of them, but we might need to add a way to silence the error for cases where I've missed something

@JosephWright skype ping

@JosephWright the patches I use in pdfmanagement for xcolor seems to work, until now I hadn't much problems. But probably we really need to get in contact with Uwe Kern to sort that out properly.

@UlrikeFischer Indeed

4:01 PM
@DavidCarlisle I just tried to convince Herbert to take over some of the seminar patches in hyperref, and the side-effect is that we discovered that seminar is broken in a new latex as it redefines \document ;-(.

@UlrikeFischer shame as it's so much better than beamer:-)
@UlrikeFischer no one reported that?

@UlrikeFischer Oopsie

@DavidCarlisle Joseph could take it over as a replacement ..
@DavidCarlisle not to us, and Herbert didn't seem to know it either.
@DavidCarlisle it was reported: tex.stackexchange.com/q/570913/2388 ;-) and I seem to have notified Herbert too.

@UlrikeFischer so you knew all that time

@DavidCarlisle my former me seems to have known it ;-). I wonder, does hyperref have to contain support for a class that is broken in a current latex? Perhaps I could move them into a "old-hyperref-patches" package and people could load or copy them if they need them.

4:20 PM
@UlrikeFischer Or just send them to the seminar mainatainer with a suggestion that while fixing \document he rolls in the hyperref patches?

@DavidCarlisle well the question is if he wants to fix. Last year when I notified him about the document problem, he wrote that he no longer wants to touch seminar. And I guess the guy in the question wrote him too and nothing happened.

@UlrikeFischer check them in to seminar-issues-for-a-future-maintainer
7

@DavidCarlisle Patch itslef is simple and I think safe, it's the knock-on

4:42 PM
Meanwhile, I'm working out if there are good ideas in breqn to extract, or if it's a tarpit

@DavidCarlisle Herbert just wrote that he will set it to unmaintained and move to obsolet.

@UlrikeFischer Oh wwow

@DavidCarlisle -- I can understand the "reserved" locations in the math alphanumerica (those letters are in the "letterlike symbols" block), but can't figure what the ones in this block are reserved for. (Unicode isn't always scrutable.)

@barbarabeeton ? same thing isn't it?

4:51 PM
@JosephWright do you think it will have a large impact? I never used it.

@UlrikeFischer No, but it's a long-standing presentation package

@DavidCarlisle -- Oh. wrong. I will bug Murray again.

5:08 PM
@DavidCarlisle -- If variation selectors are to be used for calligraphic letters, the least that should be done is to document it in TR#25. (Bug Murray.)

@barbarabeeton The two reserved ones in Extended-F are waiting on part (c) of the original proposal (unicode.org/L2/L2020/20252r-mod-ipa-a.pdf)

@MarcelKrüger -- Thanks. It's nice to have clear documentation for such things.

5:25 PM
@barbarabeeton oh the latin block I mentioned earlier? I thought you meant the math script letters

EL KABONG IS BACK

@DavidCarlisle -- Nope. But @MarcelKrüger provided the information about those gaps so I'm happy there.

@barbarabeeton so now just need stix and cambria math etc to add the tables for the variant selectors....
@barbarabeeton but typical unicode half job the variant selectors don't apply to lowercase and don't apply to bold script

@DavidCarlisle -- But the official Unicode variants aren't documented yet that I can find. So even if Cambria and stix provide the glyphs, there's no Unicode backing.

@barbarabeeton they are in unicode 14 which has been delayed tp September but the draft charts are up already as are the UCD data files.
@barbarabeeton this was from the unicode chart:
2 hours ago, by David Carlisle

5:37 PM
@JosephWright recently, I saw that \__quark_if_empty_if:o still uses \ifx internally, instead of \if (was among the bunch of minor speed ups in l3tl). Is there any particular reason why \@@_if_empty_if:o is needed twice (ones inside l3quark once inside l3tl)? Couldn't we just do a \cs_set_eq:NN in whichever module is loaded later, or just use the same internal macro (maybe moving it to the \__kernel name space).

@DavidCarlisle -- Yes, you already posted that. It only says "these are similar". The text at the top of that section is nice, but there need to be at least two distinct codings. Among the examples I provided, there were at least two that showed distinctly different math usages in the same document for script vs. calligraphic. That requirement hasn't yet been satisfied.

@barbarabeeton It has hasn't it? the unmodified U+1D49C can be an A in either style but there are now two variant selectors to force caligraphic/chancery or script/roundhand

@DavidCarlisle -- It really needs to be stated which variation selector is used for which shape.

@barbarabeeton that is exactly what the text in the image above does FE00 is \mathcal and FE01 is \mathscr
@barbarabeeton unless you are in \boldmath in which case you are still lost.

@DavidCarlisle -- Yes, you're correct. (I just had my annual eye exam, and my eyes are still fuzzy.) Okay, thanks. I will ask Murray, politely, to add this to TR#25. (And at the same time mention bold math.)

5:46 PM
@barbarabeeton I'm just wondering how best to get this in to w3.org/2003/entities/2007doc/script.html

@DavidCarlisle -- Bonne chance.

1 hour later…
6:50 PM
How much disk space does a full TeX Live installation take on a Windows machine?

@DavidCarlisle oh no
@DavidCarlisle ooh
@LaTeXereXeTaL My local install takes 8GB on my Linux box, I'd wager something similar on Windows.

7:05 PM
@PauloCereda Thank you.

@LaTeXereXeTaL Much as @PauloCereda says if you install everything

7:29 PM
@JosephWright what's the fun in not installing everything? :)

@DavidCarlisle -- Do you remember seeing any evidence that the two variation selectors were added to the script letters in block 2100 (letterlike symbols)?

8:12 PM
@barbarabeeton unicode.org/L2/L2021/21009.htm, B.1 — 25: "Consensus: The UTC accepts 52 variation sequences to distinguish roundhand and chancery style mathematical script alphabetic characters, for Unicode version 14.0. (Reference: L2/20-275R)"

8:49 PM
@MarcelKrüger With a postfix variation selector…
@MarcelKrüger I hope that HarfBuzz is able to cope with it

9:05 PM
@MarcelKrüger -- Yippee! Well, that takes care of the lightface. I should still check with Murray about the boldface and TR#25. Thanks. (Who's your mole on the UTC?)

9:36 PM
@barbarabeeton sorry I was out they are listed in the charts in the 2100 block as well as in the plane 1 math alphabet block.