Heck, is it really that difficult to make a program that doesn't freeze on startup? I start to wonder what's wrong, whether the softwares or my computer

@CarLaTeX -- Oh, hello! Yes, I've received it. But I've spent the day working on our taxes. (Ugh.)

@yo' -- I've just been asked for permission to translate my article on "debugging LaTeX" into Czech for publication i Zpravodaj, and granted it. It will be interesting to try to read it. But now, before I fall asleep on my keyboard, I'm giving up; that's what a day of figuring taxes does to one. G'night.

@barbarabeeton ok I got all my 3 tax reports done quite some time ago fortunately.

now I'm struggling with getting any video or audio editing software to run on my computer. Completely pissed off, it's 3am and the things have to be ready on 8am. So I'm using the most old-school thing in the world and trying to squeeze some quality sound out of it.

@yo' -- We didn't receive the last report we needed until Tuesday.

@yo' -- Good luck. Sounds like you need sleep even more than I do.

@barbarabeeton yeah, I was lucky that the couple papers I needed were quite fast this time. (All the donation certificates, and then also a confirmation that's needed so that I can pay taxes from an income I've never seen and will never see...)

@barbarabeeton yeah, probably. It's pure frustration. I have tried about 5 various softwares tonight. They either don't work at all or don't do the type of work I need to do.

And I even tried some free versions of some softwares that could cost me hundreds of dollars for the full version. Oh how stupid would I be if I ever went for these!

@barbarabeeton No worry, no hurry :)

quack

> Apple is discontinuing the iMac Pro

@UlrikeFischer Is there a way to query the current colour model in use at the time \color_select:n{...} is invoked? Pkg l3color exposes \l_color_fixed_model_tl as public interface, but it seems to be empty in general. Thus, is rgb the default, unless \l_color_fixed_model_tl is non-empty?

@AlexG There is no default: it's whatever someone sets for a colour - the fixed model is about coercing colours to a given model

@AlexG If you use say \color_set:nnn { foo } { rgb } { 0.1 , 0.2 , 0.3 } then foo is rgb, but if you then do \color_set:nnn { foobar } { cmyk } { 0.1 , 0.2 , 0.3 , 0.4 } then foobar is cmyk, and you can use the two freely. If you mix them, it's the First model we go with for the result

@JosephWright With ocgcolorlinks, I need to save the text colour used upon start of the link annot and write it to aux. So I need to know the current model and components, or the current expression. Is that possible?

If I got it right, any colour model can be set by the user to colour colorlinks/ocgcolorlinks?

Are they internally converted to the backend specific colour model?

But here, for PDF, at least two are thinkable, rgb and cmyk, or are there other colour models available (for text)?

@JosephWright Of course, there are many more than these two. But for (ocg) link colours, which are visible on-screen only, saving them in rgb format could be sufficient, perhaps.

@AlexG then you probably could really export only the rgb numbers, and then reinsert them.

@AlexG Sounds like you want to write the colour expression in abstract terms: really it should only get converted to a backend format 'at the last minute' (when actually being applied)

@AlexG No, it's only when we do \color_select:n or similar: the idea is very different from classical color (@DavidCarlisle)

@AlexG but imho your logic is wrong: you don't need to store all the details of the colors, you only need to store a color name that you can use when creating the ocgcolorlink.

@JosephWright texlua/luatex question on the main site ;-)

@JosephWright is this where I am supposed to reply MY WAY IS BETTER (even if it isn't)?

@UlrikeFischer That's what I said :)

@JosephWright oh I'm slow ;)

@StefanKottwitz VERY (as in, no one uses it directly)

Last palindrome (although comma-flawed) in a long, long time...

@Rmano you just need to get to a 2-7 cycle from the 1-6 one, that's easy if you are prepared to ask a question, but even without you just need to arrange to get some down votes

:(

Just when I was posting my answer, the question got deleted :(

Ah yes! Let's see...

@Skillmon happened to me a couple of times, really annoying

@JosephWright My original problem is to properly track link colours of nested links that are broken around page breaks. I want to maintain a stack with colours of pending open links. The stack is written to aux at shipout (the page is finalized by then). If I just create an alias of the current colour (\color_set_eq:nn) and push this one on the stack, instead of the actual colour expression/backend colour, then it is not obvious that I will reinstate the correct colours on bop.

That is why I'd like to get my hands on the actual colour model+components when the link starts.

@AlexG can't you use a proper color stack?

All this is important, because the colour of the ocglink is set-up and used only when the link ends. It is only at this point in time when I use \color_select:n(n) ... (Ben Lerner's method).

@UlrikeFischer Using L3 methods?

@AlexG I think the code is only in the backend currently, but that could be changed. The main question is if your code can make use of a color stack.

@UlrikeFischer I have, actually, no idea at all of how this low-level colour stack management works...

Up to now I was happy with \Hy@colorlink, because it gets the colour expression as its only argument which I could save on my colour stack.

With the new implementation, however, it is the link type that is passed to the annotation hook.

@AlexG but you can get the color name from it, I'm not hiding it. Try e.g. \color_show:n {hyp/color/url}.

@UlrikeFischer Yeah, I have tried that command already, but it writes the result to the terminal. I would like to have an expandable command.

Or one that writes the result into a tl var.

Couldn't you provide a such, please?

@AlexG That's what \color_export:nnN is for

@JosephWright But don't I need to know the format a priori?

@AlexG no I only used it to show you that there is a name for the url color. Look Hy@colorlink got as argument \@urlcolor, and this contained e.g. red!50!blue and you stored the red!50!blue right? So where is the problem to store the hyp/color/url instead? it is also simply a symbolic name.

@AlexG, @UlrikeFischer I think we need a full example here: one for an issue rather than chat?

@UlrikeFischer "red!50!blue" is a definite color and hyp/color/url is an alias that represents arbitrary colour the user can change at their will. If I push three times "hyp/color/url" on the stack then this has no value if I want to recreate the colours on the start of the next page.

@JosephWright See this example, with nested ocgcolorlinks broken around page, where url colour is changed by the user in between: tex.stackexchange.com/a/361422/1053

@AlexG no red is not a definite color, people can redefine it as they can redefine url color.

@UlrikeFischer Yes maybe, but "red" is perhaps less likely to be changed by the user than, say hyp/ocg/URI.

@AlexG Definitely sounds like a colour stack job

@UlrikeFischer yes true but the implied functionality request of getting the actual colour that would be used at that point from red or from hyp/ocg/URI isn't unreasonable perhaps. It's just a technical detail that it isn't inserted there (but the colour stack may perhaps do that, it depends a bit on the timing:-)

@AlexG and what about the color NiceGreen or titlecolor? Which do you view as "definite"? Symbolic names are symbolic.

@DavidCarlisle no, but I wonder which part of the actual color @AlexG needs. If he wants only the rgb numbers, then using export or a color stack could be good, if he need the "full" color, then copying the color in an alias sounds better.

@UlrikeFischer Yes, therefore, something like \color_show:n but writing into a tl or expanding to [model]{colour}, something that \color_select:nn understands, would be something fantastic to have.

@AlexG The problem is that \color_show:nn can show a multi-part colour with more than one model, which is almost certainly not what you are after :)

@AlexG well what would you want to get from this color:

@JosephWright Yes, after all, exporting hyp/ocg/URI and friends to RGB is just enough, as it is only relevant for on-screen display anyway...

@UlrikeFischer Actually, I don't know.

@UlrikeFischer The colour that it produces on-screen. But as I understand it, it might depend on the PDF viewer.

I think RGB export is enough for my purposes...

...from fooRGB to RGB.

@JosephWright you could add a comma-sep-rgb and comma-sep-cmyk export format, then imho @AlexG should be able to store the values as wanted.

@UlrikeFischer +1

@UlrikeFischer Will do

@UlrikeFischer Indeed, but this still seems like we need to find a way to use an engine colour stack for pdfTeX/LuaTeX/(x)dvipdfmx

@AlexG well I'm not completly convinced that is what you actually want as colors get converted and e.g. rgb-from-cmyk doesn't look necessarly like cmyk, but it isn't complicated to add so it is worth to try (and a comma export could be useful in other places too).

@UlrikeFischer Thank you, Ulrike! Besides, which colour model is used for the link border, if a user chooses to set a link colour with such an exotic colour model? I think it needs to be converted to RGB too, doesn't it?

@AlexG yes I use the space-sep-rgb export for this (it exists at my request ;-)). There is also an option to get cmyk instead (there was a feature request for hyperref to allow this, but not all pdf viewer correctly support it).

@UlrikeFischer Ah yes, I read about this in the docs.

@UlrikeFischer, @AlexG github.com/latex3/latex3/issues/863

@AlexG I don't think that it is really sensible or useful, but with l3color it is easy to implement, so it doesn't hurt to add it.

@JosephWright , @Ulrike, thank you all :-)!

@ArtificialStupidity as your nickname says... lol

@ArtificialStupidity This cartoon gives babies a bad name. They're much better at this.

Hi all, is there a place where I can read what the ^^A in .dtx files is? I tried texdoc ltxdoc but it didn't help a lot...

@Rmano It's a comment char

@JosephWright ok. It is used to "remain" a comment when the first % is stripped?

@Rmano It's used because %isn't a comment char in a .dtx

@JosephWright hmmm... ok. Is there something I can read about it? I am doing things "by feel" now and it's not... professional ;-P

@CarLaTeX perfect fit! :)

In latest news, I'm done with translating lesson and more 12...

@Rmano It's just \catcode`\^^A=14 (doc.sty does that \AtBeginDocument)

@Skillmon Cool

Where to open issues about things in latex-dev? On the LaTeX2e repo?

@Skillmon Please

@JosephWright Is mourning about issues with the implementation of the new option handling an issue or an enhancement request?

(I guess bug, so I'll go with that route)

What is the SI unit for weight?

@yo' newton?

@UlrikeFischer kg?

@yo' that's mass.

@UlrikeFischer ah right. So it seems I spoilt my own joke :-/ The point is, I was calculating the max. load of a plywood construction, and I got to 535 and thought: "Only half a kilo, what I do wrong?"

Only to realize that gram is of course not the SI unit :-)

@UlrikeFischer you have mail:-)

@DavidCarlisle secret plan ;-)

@DavidCarlisle the second link doesn't work.

@UlrikeFischer and today's quiz question: to get from test.html to test2.html, where do you add the 2 ?

@DavidCarlisle the next question is where do you add a c?

@UlrikeFischer I NEED EMACS

@DavidCarlisle ? I thought you are never out of emacs?

@UlrikeFischer fixed

-bash: emacs: command not found

@UlrikeFischer ^^^ :(

@DavidCarlisle sudo apt-get install emacs

@StefanKottwitz yes I know, I was just trying to live without it (failed:-)

@StefanKottwitz Or I could use emacs here and edit remote files over ssh, but I was trying to use this nano thing

@DavidCarlisle vi? vim? pico? joe?

not the first two not unless I am really desparate:-)

@DavidCarlisle you don't know how to exit from vi? ;-)

@StefanKottwitz is it even possible?

@DavidCarlisle I know how to exit from emacs: ctrl+Z. Somehow the university servers hosting emacs always crash after some work though. No idea why.

@DavidCarlisle seems to work quite fine and quite up-to-date ;-)

@Skillmon :)

@UlrikeFischer we might want some even more up to date online tagged examples at some point...

@DavidCarlisle ? what for examples?

@UlrikeFischer well a separate sequence of examples for tagged pdf or to put it another way a possibility for a fully up to date installation where people can experiment with generating tagged pdf of their own documents without needing to have the very latest latex installed

@UlrikeFischer not as part of ll but using the same back end server

@DavidCarlisle yes, would be interesting. What about latex-dev? Can one run it through the magic commands?

@UlrikeFischer yes

@DavidCarlisle paragraph hooks work:

@UlrikeFischer argg you snuck weird images into the standard distrib:-)

@DavidCarlisle I used that to test Frank's code, I thought if it can handle such tikz pictures it is probably not so bad ;-) (and you see where there are paragraphs ...)

@UlrikeFischer at one point I had a plan to allow images to be uploaded to the latexcgi server without having to add them to ctan first (not that that applie tso tikz)

@DavidCarlisle as you can't save the tex I don't think that there is so much need for the upload of pictures.

@UlrikeFischer well but if you have a document already and want to try it on tl2020 or 21 or whatever you might want the real images not example-image or a duck or whatever

@DavidCarlisle yes, it would be nice to test a whole project, but there you probably also have input files, a bib, perhaps even fonts, so it could get complicated wouldn't it?

@UlrikeFischer yes would really need something more like overleaf's zip file project upload and I'm not sure that fits the simple interface we have

@UlrikeFischer actually uploading a single image would be fairly easy to add via a drag and drop sort of interface but I don't have any end user way of managing filenames, for learnlatex teh filenames have to be built in to the example page you can change the text but not the structure. Probably just leave it. (uploading zip files opens up too many issues:-)