00:00 - 22:0022:00 - 00:00

12:56 AM
@StefanKottwitz if only this handwriting was the benchmark among the university teachers!

1:16 AM
@yo' You talking to me? :)

3 hours later…
3:55 AM
@Canageek Now I'm offended ;). My country is not the UK!!! And you are vastly overstating my country's size.
@Canageek And you are vastly overstating my country's size.
@AlanMunn Should've used Forest.

3 hours later…
7:08 AM
@StefanKottwitz compare^^^

7:21 AM
quack

@PauloCereda /distinct rabbit sound

@Skillmon hi mr. rabbit

8:07 AM
baa!

@Plergux hi sheep person!

@PauloCereda Hi duck person! and rabbit person @Skillmon

@StefanKottwitz I've got one of those too. I did all my lecture notes for the past several weeks on it. My handwriting is not much to write home about, though. But I love the tablet. It's way nicer to write on than the ipad using the apple pencil.

@barbarabeeton Sounds like my neighbourhood :p
@AlanMunn "The lice ate the lasagna" ? :p

@Skillmon Electrical engineer? I don't think anyone else uses j for the imaginary unit, or do physicists do it too, these days?

8:14 AM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen Yes, the tablet feels great. And it entices me into writing

@Plergux Way back, I was at a Nordic math meeting in Reykjavík. A colleague of mine, who isn't the kind of person to use proper raingear, had forgotten his umbrella at home. He was trawling all the stores in Reykjavík looking for one, with no success. I guess umbrellas are mostly pretty useless there.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Not really. The rain is pretty much horizontal usually. :p

@HaraldHanche-Olsen I may lend it to my kids because they don't like writing so much (they love reading though) perhaps they have fun with it and so do practicing.
My only concern: it looks so cool with the calligraphic pen, that normal pencil writing may become more boring.

@Plergux That was my experience too. On my last day of my first visit to Reykjavík, the rain was not only horizontal, but the raindrops were huge. Each drop hurt when they hit my face, and they did so at an alarming rat.
@StefanKottwitz I actually use the fineliner when I write mathematics. But yes, the calligraphic pen is cool. I play with it from time to time.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen switch to the calligraphic pen just for the integral sign :-)

8:18 AM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen yes, electrical engineer here. Until today (while I'm teaching students) I still don't understand why we use j instead of i. They say so that you don't confuse it with a current, but j is also the current density, no one cares that you could confuse those two, it seems.
@Plergux hi sheep person!

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Yes, it can get pretty nasty. And it's worse than hail (which can hurt pretty bad too) because it soaks you. I always feel a lot colder when it rains than when it snows.

@Plergux I have never experienced horizontal hail.

Wait a minute, horizontal rain?!

@PauloCereda heh heh heh... yes. it's because you very rarely have only rain. It's usually a rain storm. Hence, horizontal rain. :p

@PauloCereda Yes, as in 90° to the vertical. Or almost so. It takes a strong wind to make it happen.

8:20 AM
@Plergux @HaraldHanche-Olsen oh my

@HaraldHanche-Olsen also the arbitrary underlining of complex variables... It seems like we think students are dumb.
@PauloCereda yep, really nasty.

@PauloCereda We have them in Trondheim too, but not nearly as often.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Well, when you're mad and go outside when you really should just stay home... :p

@Skillmon :-) electr(onic) engineer also --- yes, the reason is not to confuse with currents (current density is rarely used unless you are doing semiconductor physics, really). But in the end is fashion --- for example, in Italy we use j for the imaginary unit, but v (and not u) for voltage, and no one has a problem to mix this with velocity...

@Rmano It's probably the same as with language. You read it from the context. Like "I took a bow" versus "she's wearing a bow" versus "He used his bow and arrows" :p

8:23 AM
@PauloCereda what's annoying, too, is when you don't see the rain, but still get wet and cold when you're outside as the droplets are just really small and evenly dispersed.

@Skillmon Oh, I missed that. And I wouldn't have guessed what it's for, as I haven't encountered that convention before. Reminds of the UK, where I have seen people use a tilde below a letter to indicate a vector. On the blackboard.

@Skillmon That's called fog. :p

@Plergux no, it's not fog.

@Skillmon oh, you mean like a drizzle?

@Plergux it really is just steady rain with miniature droplets.

8:24 AM
@StefanKottwitz No, I haven't had the need, luckily. Been teaching a really small class this fall, and we had a big auditorium, so no problem with physical classroom teaching.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen did you try the live view in a teaching video screens sharing session?

@Plergux yes, exactly

@HaraldHanche-Olsen maybe it's close to that. Where I grew up we rarely had this kind of weather, but here in Bayreuth the last three winters where just that. Close to no snow, but wet and cold air for weeks.

@Skillmon yes, I agree --- I simply say them that writing j and t in the same expression is the definitive sin ;-)

8:26 AM
@Rmano like text in math mode. :p

@Rmano but what if you have a time variant current density? :)

@Skillmon I can write a very big uppercase J

@Skillmon ooh

@StefanKottwitz No, haven't tried it at all. Some day, I expect I will try it.

@Plergux like a drizzle maybe, but maybe a bit less rainy and more just wet (depends on what you call a drizzle). I don't know how to explain this (as a matter of fact, I don't even know how to describe this in German).

8:35 AM
@Skillmon In my first contact with phasor notation, in high school, my teacher advocated for using ʝ (unicode 0x29d, even if at that time unicode did not exist) --- it's difficult to have complex numbers and linguistic confused, I think (but I can be wrong).

@Skillmon Heh heh heh... Well, we have a word in Icelandic, "úði" which is the same word that we use for the kind of moisture that comes out of a spray can. Kind of "misty" but more wet. :p (and I thought Germans had words for everything :p At least that's what the internet says. :p)

ooh Misty teh pokémon trainer

@Plergux maybe we do, but I don't know every German word :)
@PauloCereda back in the days in which I used Charmander as my starter.... ANNOYING MISTY!

@Skillmon Agreed, and her Starmie. :)

@Skillmon Well, that's true. You could speak a language for a hundred years and still not learn all the words :)

8:41 AM
@Plergux unless it's French. French has a finite set of words, iirc.

@PauloCereda Heh heh heh...

@Skillmon sacréd cœur
coin coin

@Plergux Most likely the same as “yr” in Norwegian.

@Skillmon Heh heh heh... Well when you have a secret institution to tell you what words are and are not French. :| (though the general public probably disagree :p)
@HaraldHanche-Olsen We also have "ýra" "spray" :)

@Plergux well, if you consider those strange terms used in chemistry to describe organic stuff, the number of words in French is a bit bigger (infinite)

8:45 AM
ooh bløtkake

@Plergux Obviously the same word. Google translate translates úði into mist, or “tåke” in Norwegian. But unlike some, I don't necessarily accept what google translate says.

@Skillmon I don't speak chemistry. :p

@Plergux me neither.

@Plergux It's "sirimiri" in Spanish (although only non-native knows that, I suppose), which is really "zirimiri" in Euskera --- it's a quite typical rain in the northern coast of Spain, so it must have a name. es.thefreedictionary.com/sirimiri

Obviously, in places with lots of weather, one has lots of words for weather.

8:48 AM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen No, me neither. :p When your native language is fairly underrepresented you learn pretty quickly not to trust these kinds of things. :p
@Rmano :) That sounds so much like what it is :p speaking of Euskera... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque%E2%80%93Icelandic_pidgin :p

@Plergux Hafðu trú á óskeikult véfrétt

@Plergux Although I like the synonym "calabobos" (never heard before --- means "to get wet" + "silly persons")
@Plergux And wow, did not know that!

@DavidCarlisle I rest my case :p

@DavidCarlisle preemptive oh no

@Rmano is that like "silly rain" then? :p

8:54 AM
@Plergux could be ;-P

@Rmano :)

(need to go to the safety vest donning thing, teaching a lab right now) have a nice moring everyone here

9:11 AM
@Rmano ooh exploding things
> You can be denied citizenship in Switzerland for "being too annoying."
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

@PauloCereda Well, that's me out :p

@Plergux same :)

9:55 AM
@PauloCereda well, amplifiers at 12 V don't explode, modulo the occasional elcos mounted upside down. But still covid protocol is strict here - so mask + shield

@Rmano ooh

10:07 AM
@JosephWright I checked the new colorstack special in xelatex and it seems to work fine and quite similar to pdflatex/lualatex. I think one should add some abstraction for pdflatex/lualatex/xelatex to expl3, but I'm unsure if this should be \pdf_colorstackXXX or if this should go into l3color?

10:21 AM
ooh testing zippers :)

@UlrikeFischer IMO it doesn't belong into l3color because the functionality could also be used for non-color usecases.

@MarcelKrüger ooh the henryford colorscheme :)

@MarcelKrüger Such as?
@UlrikeFischer I was going to say we extend the colour part now, then look at non-color aspects sepearately, but I see @MarcelKrüger has different ideas :)

@MarcelKrüger yes I though similar (it is used in the transparent package to add /TRX gs)). Perhaps one even shouldn't name the abstraction color but graphicstate or something like this.

@UlrikeFischer I was thinking it's purely internal, as it's not possible to abstract dvips or (I think) dvisvgm in the same way at all

10:27 AM
@JosephWright Transparency (which can be seen as kind of color related) and most graphic state operators in PDF in general. (I recently e.g. looked into using it for text knockout settings)

@MarcelKrüger But for dvips one has to do that via PostScript anyway, so I'd expect us to manage it 'inside' an interface for transparency or (perhaps) graphics state without exposing any kind of stack

@JosephWright For an internal interface it's fine, I was mostly thinking that a public interface with this kind of functionality should not be l3color specific.

@JosephWright well in my (new) transparent code I have things like  \let\TRP@pdfcolorstackinit\tex_pdfcolorstackinit:D \let\TRP@pdfcolorstack\tex_pdfcolorstack:D which I would like to get rid off ... And there is pdfcol and pdfcolfoot which uses it too. dvips is naturally difficult, but it could be a no-op for now.
@JosephWright we could naturally also move the transparency code into l3color and keep it internal, then transparent would be only a stub defining the \texttransparent command.

10:45 AM
@MarcelKrüger It's not at the moment I think
@UlrikeFischer REally sounds like backend code to me: I'll think a bit
@UlrikeFischer @MarcelKrüger I think we should sketch out a spec first: do you want me to do that?

@JosephWright sure, I added some tests and remarks behind \endinput in the new-transparent.sty in pdfresources (newest branch).

@UlrikeFischer OK, probably will look later (I forgot my laptop charger today so I'm on my work PC, which is messing me about with Git)

11:09 AM
@UlrikeFischer I'm having a read now

1 hour later…
12:29 PM
@Rmano My first laboratory session with students will be next Monday. Definitely not looking forward to it.

12:52 PM
I wonder whether 2021 isn't time to stop hard-wrapping the tex logs. (Could be under an option so that it doesn't break things...)
2

@yo' with the newest latex format you could use \RequirePackage{structuredlog}, along with a longer line length it helps a lot to make logs more readable.

@UlrikeFischer that sounds good. It would be nice though if the logs were at least machine-readable :)
btw, someone just asked us about AMSLaTeX saying they have a book on it. I wonder when was the last book on AMSLaTeX published...

@yo' Switch to ConTeXt ;)

@TeXnician LuaTeX still wraps the lines, no?

@TeXnician tell that to 6500000 people :)

1:02 PM
@yo' :)

@JosephWright Don't know but the LMTX logs I get are not line-broken (and with the line prefixes machine-readable)…
@yo' I think Hans would not get to answer any emails after that :D

@TeXnician Do you mean the real engine logs or the ConTeXt ones?
@TeXnician I guess I'd find thta odd, as I don't wrap lines in my editor so they'd all go off screen ;)

@JosephWright I mean the logs that the user can access, i.e. what ConTeXt writes into the .log file after a run. And there I get logs without forced line breaks at a certain width.

@TeXnician Ah, yes, the ConTeXt one: I guess as I'm a developer I want the Real ones (which mean finding the format, running the engine manually, etc.)

@JosephWright Well, that's probably a matter of taste. For machine readability long lines are much better…

1:05 PM
@TeXnician Oh, I know: the contorsions in l3build are quite extensive

@TeXnician Yeah, that's the reason I suggest that: LaTeXMk fails to run BibTeX randomly because of this.

@yo' Should be using logreq ;)

@JosephWright Well, the ConTeXt one gives me all information necessary (one can enable more tracing directives etc.) and ConTeXt pre-structuring it is a plus for me. But I understand that at a lower level one might have different expectations. Just wanted to mention that user logs are one of the other aspects I actually like when using ConTeXt :)

@JosephWright ???

@yo' Let users run arara ;)
@PauloCereda ^^^^

1:07 PM
@TeXnician ooh

@TeXnician while that sounds like a plan, I'm afraid that maybe 80% of the users would be completely lost.

@yo' You could forward complaints to @PauloCereda if his documentation is not understandable :D

@yo' Philip Lehman wrote a package called logreq to go with biblatex, to write structured data in the log; he hoped it would be used more generally, but that never happened
@TeXnician I guess that the issue I have is that it doesn't keep strictly to the way TeX formats things, so it's harder for me to compare outputs. But that's a pretty unusual case

@TeXnician oh no

@JosephWright And it would do what exactly? Would it prevent the previous line to have exactly 80 characters, or any hardwrap completely so that latexmk could stop looking for wrapped lines?
I suppose you know better than I do what all issues are there with log parsing :)

1:10 PM
@yo' Doesn't change wrapping, rather it means the information on steps required is inside known markers

@TeXnician oh you assume that people know what "documentation" is

@JosephWright Oh, of course. But if I had to compare the information given in open source > level 1, order 1, name '/opt/luametatex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/mkxl/cont-new.mkxl' to standard TeX output syntax I would be lost in all the parentheses to look for anyway (especially if it's not level 1, order 1) :D

@JosephWright you need to parse all input files in the log to check for file dependencies; that's the reason why you ever care about long lines. So it something helps with this and can be safely used for all documents without breaking anything, I'm all ears and eyes!!!

@yo' No, just where to ask ;)

@TeXnician I mean more TeX errors and the like: they are re-formatted
@yo' logreq writes everything in an XML file, which therefore is indepedent of log formatting

1:14 PM
@JosephWright Ah, errors. Got it. They indeed are. But from the user perspective they are typical TeX errors: cryptic error messages for the win :D

@TeXnician I guess I'd say the issue in both LaTeX and ConTeXt is there should be fewer files being opened
@TeXnician ConTeXt has the 'issue' that it doesn't attempt to run the source files together; really it could just have two big files, one .tex and one .lua

@yo' why don't you change the line width then on overleaf?

@UlrikeFischer yeah, that's a good question. From what I understood it's not possible in all engines, but I might be mistaken...

@JosephWright Actually, I can live with many files being opened (except when on a HDD with slow access times) as long as I am able to recognize at which point the process stopped. Is there some technical background you would argue for fewer files?

You guys see why we are an island? We can simply put some hammocks and let the TeX world burn around us. :)
4

1:18 PM
@TeXnician File opening is relatively slow, so keeping the number down is important, plus as you notice they don't half clutter the log (plus I tend to want to avoid version-clash, which having everthing in one file helps with)
@yo' You can change all the big ones
@TeXnician I'm going to guess you don't use Windows

@JosephWright Ah, sounds sensible. Thanks for the explanation :)
@JosephWright No, Linux-only at the moment :D

In other depressing news: Brexit in 29 days.

@JosephWright sorry

@PauloCereda You aren't facing getting a visa to go to Scotland ;)

1:19 PM
@JosephWright ouch, there has to be whiskey in the jar

@yo' overleaf could tell texlive they want 160 chars in the log, then texlive could change it, and then I wouldn't have the problem that my diffs differ ...

@PauloCereda At this point, I don't believe it will ever happen and they will last-minute bail out anyways.

@yo' You could ask on the TL list; other than people doing automated testing, it's probably quite a safe change. Of course, people like @HenriMenke might have a view (as would the team, though a one-time change is quite manageable)

@PauloCereda 'cause nothing else matters!

@Skillmon Nope

1:20 PM
@JosephWright don't we force a line width in l3build anyway?

@Skillmon you are confusing the English with the French :)
@Skillmon ooh awesome guitar solo follows

@Skillmon It will happen; Boris and the Conservatives more generally have put all of their political captital on this
@UlrikeFischer I think we do, though I'd havve to check the detail

@JosephWright I feel sorry for you guys :( I'm still amazed that such a close vote can lead to so dramatic consequences.

@JosephWright I thought we have to get around the luatex offset.

@JosephWright surely our epigraphs will please you: gitlab.com/islandoftex/albatross/-/blob/master/docs/…

1:23 PM
@JosephWright what about the parsing scripts out there? Wasn't that the reason to take out the well-structured l3 error messages one or two years ago?

> Excessive brain activity can shorten your lifespan.

@UlrikeFischer I have a hard-coded offset for that

I WILL LIVE FOREVER

@Skillmon Yes, that;s true, but I don't think removing line breaks would hurt there
@PauloCereda :)

@PauloCereda can shorten, not "is the only thing limitting it"

1:25 PM
@Skillmon oh no

@JosephWright just wanted to warn you beforehand :) Now you can't blame me!

@Skillmon rabbits are never the problem, only solution. :)

@JosephWright I just tried, even if I set max line to 200 in the cnf, the l3build logs are still wrapped at 80.

@PauloCereda I'm soo hungry, what should I eat? -> rabbits

@UlrikeFischer Ah, so we did look out for that

1:30 PM
@Skillmon oopsie

@PauloCereda there is an overpopulation of rabbits in the city park. What should we do? -> rabbits

@Skillmon ooh rabbit overflow

@PauloCereda if we add just two other rabbits, the number of rabbits will be -65536
3

@Skillmon LOL damn those integer rabbits

@PauloCereda OH NO, the rabbit population was programmed in Python, the number can grow arbitrarily large!

1:33 PM
@Skillmon import pyrabbit

@PauloCereda I think putting rabbits in python would solve it. gobble gobble :p

@Plergux I was just about to write this :(

@Plergux ooh another rabbit solution

@Skillmon Great minds think alike ;)

@PauloCereda but now the solution is no longer rabbits.

1:36 PM

@UlrikeFischer OK, so safe for us, but what about others? As @Skillmon says, I guess one would be wary about editor and script parsing for highlighting issues

@Skillmon Well it's the solution to the python being hungry :p

^^ Python programming

@PauloCereda lol

Aug 5 '19 at 17:52, by Paulo Cereda

1:42 PM
@Skillmon oh

@PauloCereda I didn't find the dejavu-quote :(

@Skillmon oh

@JosephWright The thing is, we in general want as little manual modifications as possible. (Already now we're patching the TeX Live 2020 image the 5th time for minor issues. Anything that's nonstandard requires extra work and is more likely to break something.)
So if this were a thing to put in texmf.cnf or a similar place, that would be great. If it requires a larger change somewhere, we probably better live with people complaining tha BibTeX doesn't work.

@JosephWright well I don't know, imho the short lines are more of a problem, as file pathes are simply longer today. And didn't Karl asked about better log layout sometime ago somewhere anyway?

@yo' @UlrikeFischer Like I said, we raise it on the TL list now and find out what others say

1:45 PM
@UlrikeFischer Karl as in Berry?

@Skillmon Indeed

@JosephWright just wanted to make sure that I correctly understand the messages not addressed to me :)

@Skillmon :)

@Skillmon Lab is not so bad (we have 50% capacity limit, one student here and the other at home connected via teams mainly doing simulation and the microcontroller SW part). But the shield is awkward, and the echo effect in my ears make 2 hours of that really tiring.

@Rmano We are much the same but no shields in teh teaching spaces (balance of risks)

1:58 PM
@JosephWright Yep, here they decided that only the teacher is going with shield --- the student are in the same group class after all.

2:36 PM
@JosephWright I don't really rely on the log format (yet) other than grepping for There were undefined references, etc.
@yo' Just remove all \n from the log, then you have it in a single line and can just regex match files, or you use the -recorder option which gives you a nice list in the .fls file. See also gist.github.com/hmenke/55d9f3ac39fd5845d1aac1d16ef8efdd

@HenriMenke Ah, cool, wasn't sure what you might be doing for pgf
@HenriMenke :)
@HenriMenke Doesn't quite work, as TeX truncates some lines, and that depends on the line length]

@JosephWright But not in the recorder, right?

@HenriMenke Er, not sure, I've never tried that: I'm thinking of \tracingall

@JosephWright Pfff, \tracingall is useless most of the time anyway.

@HenriMenke :)

2:39 PM
@JosephWright {\ifcase}

@HenriMenke I',m thinking of boxes, mainly: TeX trucates long lines and you have only ...: this comes up with LuaTeX vs the rest as it truncates differently (also pTeX as you have the direction stuff)

@JosephWright If anything TeX needs some sort of stack trace primitive so that I can call \trace or so at any point in the document and TeX tells me what macros were expanded to get there.
@JosephWright Ah, but that's \showoutput, not \tracingall.

@HenriMenke True :)

@HenriMenke yeah, but sometimes the newline is significant, that's the issue.

@JosephWright Does it truncate even if you turn \showboxdepth and \showboxbreadth to \maxdimen?
@yo' In a filename?

2:43 PM
@HenriMenke Yes: try with a long \special

@JosephWright I see, that's problematic. Thanks for pointing this out, I need to keep that in mind for PGF.

@HenriMenke I'm trying to track down an example: give me a few minuts

@yo' what exactly is latexmk looking for that it doesn't find sometimes?

@HenriMenke with Windows users you never know, they even put spaces in filenames!

@UlrikeFischer the one we're aware of is No file .*\.bbl. I think.

2:52 PM
@HenriMenke Hmm, perhaps I'm mistaken: I know there are issues with normalising line wrapping, but I can't find the example I had in mind. Perhaps we 'fixed' that in l3build by fiddling with line wrapping anyway

@yo' bibtex or also with biblatex?

@UlrikeFischer I believe bibtex only

@yo' hm, but how can this be a problem due to line width? It should be always short, and on one line.

@Rmano Portuguese has something similar: chuva de molhar bobo

@AlanMunn wow, nice (i just learned the word this morning and my wife didn't know it!)

3:00 PM
@AlanMunn true :)

@UlrikeFischer The issue is if the line just befreo in the log has exactly 79/80 lines, as latexmk pre-processes the files to unbreak broken filenames, and I suppose there's no way for the tool to process the file twice.

@Rmano It really is a perfect expression for that kind of rain.

(And yes, it completely reasonable to say that this lies on latexmk improving their log parser, and I'm completely fine with that answer. However, it doesn't solve the issue in the end, so it's not that much useful...)

@AlanMunn or as the German would say, a sehrlangeswortumregenzubeschreibenderdummemenschennassmacht. :)

3:04 PM
@yo' would it help if there were an additional empty line before the bbl-line?

@AlanMunn yes --- I'll add it to my vocabulary for sure

@Rmano I think it's only Brazilian Portuguese though, so it might not work in Lisbon.

@UlrikeFischer Yeah. That's the solution we suggest actually to the users: to add \typeout{} before \bibliography :) (We used to have a dirty latexmkrc hack for this until recently, because we didn't know where the issue is. Then I got mad at this and decided to track the bug down.)

@Rmano And we know how the Portuguese like the Brazilians...

@AlanMunn chuva molha-parvos, it seems

3:07 PM
@yo' well then suggest that latex adds it automatically, this is trival.

@UlrikeFischer oh could be :-)
Thanks! I always wonder how the clever people like you come up with the easy solutions, once they know what the issue is!

@PauloCereda It makes sense there would be a version of the expression for sure.

@AlanMunn I was expecting "totós" not "parvos". :)

3:23 PM
@PauloCereda LOL

3:35 PM
@Plergux baaa <3

4:15 PM
@Plergux -- Love it! (Wish my handwriting could be read so amusingly .. or could be read at all.)
@Plergux -- Time for the foulies, with a nice snuggly Icelandic sweater underneath. That's why the wool of Icelandic sheep is so warm!
@Skillmon -- Some of us call that a "mizzle".

@barbarabeeton :p yup. they are warm. I can't wear them, I would melt :p
@barbarabeeton shouldn't it rather be a "fizzle" ? :p Or a "fozzle" ? :p

4:31 PM
@Plergux -- Nope, a "fizzle" is what happens when you open a slightly warm or shaken soda can. I'll have to think about "fozzle"; seems plausible.

@barbarabeeton ah of course :) I thought of "fozzle" as the combination of "fog" and "drizzle" :p but now I can't stop thinking about Fozzie the bear and that maybe a "fozzle" might be a very bad joke :p

@Plergux -- Yes, it could mean that poor Fozzie is all wet. (The "m" in "mizzle" = "miist"; the rest means the motion is steady and mostly downwards. Certainly pervasive.)

@barbarabeeton :D

4:48 PM
@yo' -- AMSLaTeX now by definition no longer exists as a unit. amsmath is now separated and maintained by the LaTeX team. AMS classes are still allegedly maintained by AMS, although mostly in the breach.

@barbarabeeton thanks for confirming, that means I got it right :)

5:16 PM
@DavidCarlisle If I am using a class that has changed the math fonts (to newtxmath), is there an easy (\usepackage) way to restore the default CM fonts in math mode?

@StevenB.Segletes Why not defining ver@newtxmath.sty before loading the class to suggest it is already loaded?

This question, tex.stackexchange.com/questions/209060/…, sort of addresses it with \mathversion, but it does not restore things like integral signs (which just disappear) (using T1 encoding)
@TeXnician And what would I define it to?

@StevenB.Segletes An arbitrary large date, see tex.stackexchange.com/a/39418/124577 for an example (\@namedef{ver@newtxmath.sty}{9999/12/31}).

@TeXnician Wow! It worked!
@TeXnician Thanks so much!

@StevenB.Segletes You're welcome :)

5:36 PM
@yo' overleaf could set the line wrapping column to be large if it wished
@HenriMenke \errorcontextlines=\maxdimen\ERROR is what I use for that.
@yo' the line wrapping is a texmf setting

@StevenB.Segletes you could also use the new interface \disable@package@load{newtxmath}{}

@UlrikeFischer When has this been introduced?

@TeXnician with the last format, see texdoc ltfilehook

@UlrikeFischer Ah, a hook under the hood, understood :D

@TeXnician well it is not really something every user should do, so it is only offered as internal command. But we use it e.g. to replace atbegshi.

5:50 PM
@UlrikeFischer Actually, preventing packages from loading is something I regularly do, especially in the use case of some class providing specific font setups. So it's good to know there's now a command for that.

@UlrikeFischer Thank you for the alternative, Ulrike.

@TeXnician I wouldn't count you under "every user" ;-)

1 hour later…
7:11 PM
Hello everyone,

I would be grateful if anyone could help me with this basic question

I found out that the main cause of the issue in my question https://tex.stackexchange.com/q/573233/2288 is due to the multiple calls of \AtBeginDocument (inside and outside of \ExplSyntax)
So, how can I efficiently call \AtBeginDocument only once and pass to it all the commands I need to execute?

@Diaa multiple consecutive calls are essentially the same as a single one so do whichever is convenient

@DavidCarlisle But removing "\string\AtBeginDocument{\string\printanswersfalse}" from inside \ExplSyntax (under the comment % Build LaTeX questions command) makes the header be printed properly adjacent to the page top border as expected.
So, I think one of them is the suspect in one way or another

@Diaa I tried your example as posted and it looks like:
@Diaa isn't that what you expect?

@DavidCarlisle My second code in the question will get you two files: <file name>.PDF and <[Exam] file name>.PDF
Please, check the layout of the [Exam] file

@DavidCarlisle ah that's cool. Will definitely explore that!

7:27 PM
@Diaa just realised that. I can't see how anyone would guess that from your question, you don't even mention two files or the need to use shell escape

@DavidCarlisle /poke

@PauloCereda ouch!

@DavidCarlisle sorry, I meant Google thingy :)

@DavidCarlisle I don't know I have to mention the usage of shell-escape in the question.

@Diaa no one should be using shell-escape by default so if you want people to run it you should flag that very clearly (and to be honest post a much simpler example, you are asking people to trust you a lot to post that much code and ask they run t with shell escape)
@Diaa why such weird filenames? spaces in filenames are bad enough but filenames starting with [ !!!
@Diaa actually looking at the code, do you have to use latexmk?

7:33 PM
@DavidCarlisle to easily identify them without negligibly printing the solution instead of the questions
@DavidCarlisle I don't have to, but if it is there I would be happy since exam and tcolorbox need multiple runs

@Diaa it makes doing anything with the files harder and you are asking people to use the files, even just passing the file to a pdf viewer takes more effort.
@Diaa no what I mean is does your example work without. I was trying to work out where \printanswersfalse is used but it isn't used anywhere I think except -usepretex="\string\AtBeginDocument{\string\printanswersfalse} and (I assume??) that usepretex is a latexmk option?

@DavidCarlisle My question has two MWEs: the first I choose between latexmk and lualatex to compile
the second one is concise and uses only lualatex
I made the second MWE in case somebody doesn't want to check the full code

I took the second but the log is showing multiple
! Undefined control sequence.
\tcb@startbox ...x }{\tcb@w@upper }\tcb@lua@color
So it's not worth looking at any pdf output. Why run in -interaction=nonstopmode ? It is better to stop on an error.

@DavidCarlisle my miktex is up to date and doesn't show me this error
@DavidCarlisle I didn't get such an error for the second code

\$ grep -i undefined *dd512*log
[Exam] dd512.log:! Undefined control sequence.
[Exam] dd512.log:and I'll forget about whatever was undefined.
[Exam] dd512.log:! Undefined control sequence.
[Exam] dd512.log:and I'll forget about whatever was undefined.
[Exam] dd512.log:! Undefined control sequence.
[Exam] dd512.log:and I'll forget about whatever was undefined.
[Exam] dd512.log:! Undefined control sequence.
[Exam] dd512.log:and I'll forget about whatever was undefined.
@Diaa ^^^

7:44 PM
I don't know 😕

@Diaa show your [Exam] log

You are right. I found the error in the log but the editor doesn't bring it to me
! Undefined control sequence.
\tcb@startbox ...x }{\tcb@w@upper }\tcb@lua@color
{tcbcolupper}\kvtcb@fontup...
l.147 \begin{document}

The control sequence at the end of the top line
of your error message was never \def'ed. If you have
misspelled it (e.g., \hobx'), type I' and the correct
spelling (e.g., I\hbox'). Otherwise just continue,
and I'll forget about whatever was undefined.

! Undefined control sequence.
\tcb@startbox ...x }{\tcb@w@upper }\tcb@lua@color
{tcbcolupper}\kvtcb@fontup...
Maybe this is because I compile two files: one with the editor and the another externally with shell-escape

@Diaa also because you are running in nonstopmode to mask errors. You can't blame the editor for that:-)

@DavidCarlisle to make me feel better, I will blame the editor for now 😁

@Diaa but this the error egreg told you how to avoid it.

7:50 PM
@UlrikeFischer and I followed his recommendations in the preamble
would you suggest me a way to implement this

inside the \ExplSyntax so that I won't have the error and get the header properly placed in the [Exam] file?
The problem is I get two files produced: one file has the name of the tex file and it doesn't have any issues
the second file ([Exam]) is the one I need to pass the two lines I mentioned inside \ExplSyntax to avoid the error I get in its log

@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer tex.stackexchange.com/questions/35733/… Thoughts?

@PhelypeOleinik I was just looking at the beginning of expl3.ltx and am wondering if we could simplify the \meaning dance by temporarily changing the catcode of _ (like this) or if that would break in some weird edge-cases?

@JosephWright tabu author? "Well it is broken, so don't use it" sounds like a sensible advice.

@JosephWright free and opensource it says, so you could suggest to the Op that he updates at ctan

@UlrikeFischer :)
@DavidCarlisle Did you see Khaled's comments on 'open source' on Twitter?

8:04 PM
@JosephWright ?

@UlrikeFischer we could suggest @JosephWright set up keycommand-fixed gh repo
@JosephWright no (but I know he's had issues with licences in the past)

@DavidCarlisle Yup

@DavidCarlisle and copy the text over? (but does it contains nice ideas?)

@UlrikeFischer no idea, but it's LPPl the Op could try updating at ctan

@DavidCarlisle could the OP also declare it obsolete or remove?

8:12 PM
@UlrikeFischer possibly but just fixing it is less intrusive

@MarcelKrüger Your change looks good. I can't see a reason for all that complication (other than me being the author :)

@DavidCarlisle Is it really worth it? There are lots of keyval packages, and it's not one of my 'recommended' (@Skillmon)

@JosephWright well that's what I mean. It's not worth it to me, but if it's worth it to the OP they can try to get it fixed at ctan.

@DavidCarlisle I mean, one of us could fix it, but do we really want to do that

@JosephWright no
@JosephWright although somehow ctan probably ought to move to a position of not distributing known broken packages.

8:27 PM
@DavidCarlisle I think it's only that conditional that's out-and-out broken
@DavidCarlisle I see FMi decided you are a better code reviewer than @PhelypeOleinik ;)

@JosephWright or rather he doesn't want to get the blame if @PhelypeOleinik doesn't submit on time

@DavidCarlisle Isn't @UlrikeFischer to blame anyway?

@PhelypeOleinik naturally

@DavidCarlisle :)

@DavidCarlisle sound like a sensible way to split the work-you review and I get the blame.

8:35 PM
@UlrikeFischer Review complete: Ulrike messed up again.

@PhelypeOleinik Thanks, I'll push it then.

9:00 PM
@DavidCarlisle good news after a nice dinner ;-)

@UlrikeFischer Glad you liked it, and I could do the review without even looking

@DavidCarlisle you mean you didn't see all the nice easter eggs I planted in the code? Btw: I collected the hyperref color suggestions, and there is a \seq_const_from_clist:Nn \c__hyp_colorscheme_david_seq ;-)

9:17 PM
@UlrikeFischer not henryford_seq ?

@DavidCarlisle that would be an option, but all the other are named by the authors too.

@UlrikeFischer well henry authored that one, I just passed it on (and it would make more sense to more people reading it, it's quite a well known scheme under that name)

@DavidCarlisle ok. But it is currently only a draft, probably one should use properties after all, then colors can be added more easily to scheme, in case people would also like black citation or backref links ;-)

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