@DavidCarlisle -- That sounds good; it's almost exactly parallel to what's said about \newcommand. That's all I was suggesting.

@DavidCarlisle -- Different topic entirely; Regarding the "complaint" that it isn't said anywhere that it's a bad idea to (re)define one-letter \css, TUGboat has had an occasional column "Warnings and limitations". I could write up this topic for that column, showing a few examples. Then we'd have a citeable online reference Opinion? Other comments?

@barbarabeeton well as I said I'd be wary of suggesting there is a special category of one letter commands, they are normal commands they just happen to have short names. Redefining \c is bad, but redefining \box is worse, if you use \newcommand and don't redefine anything that it says is already defined, then it isn't an issue

@barbarabeeton I agree with @DavidCarlisle. What's really problematic is people using \def and not \newcommand. If \newcommand fails, people learn about the conflict, and they need some chutzpah to blithely switch to \renewcommand rather than think up a new name. So this should be stressed more so than "don't define one letter commands."

@barbarabeeton Although it's funny, somehow when defining a really short command \def seems... faster? "I'm trying to save time/typing so why would I use \newcommand 11 chars when I could just type 4" :)

@DavidCarlisle and @AlanMunn -- Yes, always using \newcommand is the real recommendation, and don't ever use \renewcommand or \def unless you absolutely know what you're doing. But the one-letter command conflict comes up often enough and causes real problems in a production environment that I think it's worth throwing in (with a really terrible example) as something that can be remembered easily.

@barbarabeeton No really I think it is misleading, the one letter thing is just simple math, a higher proportion of one letter commands are predefined than three letter commands, so it seems \c is more special than \box but it isn't

@barbarabeeton conversely if you want to define \Z to be \mathbb{Z} then there is no reason not to, it isn't that one letter commands are reserved, just that several are already defined

@DavidCarlisle -- Okay, can you point out some other really bad commands to redefine? It still seems to me that an explicit reminder wouldn't be all that bad. (And clearly, the reminder to always use \newcommand (or \NewDocumentCommand) is what needs to be beaten into hard heads.)

@barbarabeeton no one redefines \@fileswith@ptions by accident so it's the ones that look like user level commands, the one letter ones, \box ,\def (I saw someone define def once, that didn't end well), \repeat, \count, \advance, ...

@DavidCarlisle -- Thanks. (I've just checked, and even Mike Spivak used \define in AMS-TeX to trap already defined \cs's; he didn't mention \def once in Joy.) Would you be willing to read what I write before it gets frozen?

@DavidCarlisle @barbarabeeton that it is dangerous to redefine a command is one thing. But my main point with defining such one letter commands (in a package) is that as there aren't many such commands it is quite probable that someone else used it already. There was just a question of two packages defining \f and so clashing. And in another case a user pgf loop broke because a package used \x to test a font.

@barbarabeeton davidcarlisle.github.io/ll/en/more-06#newdocumentcommand

@JosephWright Good morning to you and welcome.

@egreg Hi, and good morning. My it is just a curiosity. bullet in english language is equal to the word projectile and the command $\bullet$ (\bullet) it is used for the scalar product. The bullet is born because it could be the hole generated by a bullet in shooting or during a police exercise? Thank you very very much and good work.

Good morning to all users in and out the chat.

@Sebastiano According to my dictionary, bullet comes from French boulet (small ball), in turn from Latin bulla; it initially denoted a small cannon ball, which the typographic bullet can be seen as an image of. Only later bullet became a generic word for a projectile.

> Microsoft Is Bringing Edge To Linux

@PauloCereda I reckon the user base will be enormously big.

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz quite :)

@PauloCereda Why ??????????????????????

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz :(

@UlrikeFischer I have DeviceN fully working except for export to CMYK, etc.: that is doable but tricky, and I'm wondering if we need it

I've become a video editor today!

Simple stuff from the lab, cutting it up for 'virtual' teaching

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz probably UX research -- collecting user behaviour data. That's why Google started Chrome, after all.

@PauloCereda well, let be nice on them --- they have ported (a version of) Teams too, and it has been a linux-saver for me (otherwise I would probably had to install a windows on my computers during the lockdown...)

@Rmano :)

@yo' I was under the impression that the method to get windows user to use edge is that it is there and the user either does not know or does not care to install a browser themselves. How will they get linux users to use it?

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz It will, yes if you end up being able to run edge from wsl

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz that's an interesting question. But for example if the could make the online version of office work well in it (with drag and drop, for example, and extra functionality than the current ones in Chrome/Firefox) I for one will use it...

And I'll let the Windows VM to rot...

@JosephWright do you want to edit directly or should I edit them in the PR?

@DavidCarlisle Probably should do things formally, so could you edit the PR?

@JosephWright OK will fiddle with the text in a bit. Don't blame me about the fruit descriptions, I assumed a German lady knew what German fruit looked like:-)

@egreg Thank you very very much for your nice comment. Just for me it is important because I was explaining the scalar product for my students and I have explanained the symbol \bullet. Good morning and "grazieeeeeeeeeeee": the same word that say "Umberto ToZZI" my preferite singer.

@daleif Hi and welcome into chat. My greetings.

tug.org/TUGboat/Contents/contents41-2.html

@DavidCarlisle ^^ we ducks are very good at presenting stuff

@PauloCereda just that the author of the review would rather play on a Nintendo than use tex.

@DavidCarlisle :)

@DavidCarlisle I play Animal Crossing because of @wtsnjp :)

@wtsnjp did you get Mario 3D all-stars too? :)

@PauloCereda Unfortunately, I didn't.

@wtsnjp oh

@PauloCereda You deserve a box of chocolate for that talk :)

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz ouch here comes the flashback

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz dd you get your Nintendo Switch? :)

@PauloCereda sorry :)

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz :)

@PauloCereda no, but I read that the new xbox thingy is sold out. \usepackage{xbox} to the rescue!

@Sebastiano Hi, sadly I'm just briefly passing by

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz It is, and it's bonkers! I saw some threads telling that the new series sold so fast that people with the item on their carts (online) were informed in the last step of the purchase that the item was already sold out.

@PauloCereda wow, that sounds crazy!

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz it is indeed. I have a XONE here and I probably won't get the new series.

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz I think Nintendo is unbeatable when considering gameplay experience. Their first party games are really impressive. Even with a "inferior" hardware, I think the Switch is still the best gameplay experience out there. But then it comes to game library. "Fall guys", for instance, is now a very popular game that lives only in Playstation.

@PauloCereda Same here, at least for the foreseeable future: will look at the SEries X in say two years time when the bugs have been fixed :)

@JosephWright You mean Xbox the MS thingy or xbox the L3 thingy? :)

@PauloCereda MS thingy: L3 one I clearly want!

@JosephWright :)

@JosephWright I will probably stick with my Nintendo hardware. :)

@PauloCereda You speak highly of it!

@JosephWright speaking on Switch and a franchise you like, you might enjoy this analysis: youtube.com/watch?v=QNcHI8mm9gI quite impressive to push things to the limit.

@JosephWright there are several annoyances (e.g, Nintendo is way behind Sony and Microsoft regarding online gameplay, but they are getting there eventually), but I like most of the titles. It's a frendly experience. And I must say I am impressed at their efforts in trying to bring people to play games, from experts to newbies. (ctd)

(ctd) I have a Wii and was very pleased to see my mum and dad, who never played videogames before and don't have mobility skills to hold a proper controller, to have legitimate fun playing tennis as if they were holding a tennis racket. There were no practical differences between them (who never played a videogame before) and me, who is a typical gamer. How impressive is that? :)

@DavidCarlisle well apples can also be green and pears orange or red, but I didn't want to make it too difficult for the english readers.

@UlrikeFischer :)

Session chair of a conference is now explaining for the last 15 min that the timetable is soooo tight and that every speaker absolutely has to stay within their time slots. The timeslot for the remarks of the session chair was 5 min ....

@UlrikeFischer (@DavidCarlisle) Did you hear/read Javier's comments on colorspace in the TUG interview?

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz :)

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz the timetable is a longtable :)

@PauloCereda with automatic daybreak at the end of the day?

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz it's a bug feature

@PauloCereda :D

@JosephWright I remember that he said something, buy it not what ;-( What was it?

@UlrikeFischer That you and I are doing stuff so colorspace won't get more development

@JosephWright I had the interview playing liveat the time but wasn't following that closely, should I look again?

@JosephWright ah:-)

@DavidCarlisle Comes down I think to the whole resource management business: it really isn';t feasible to do colour spaces without kernel support

@JosephWright done I think

> It was nice to be able to leave [...] or tune into a baseball game on a separate screen.

Baseball during a tex meeting? Sacrilege! Everyone knows only cricket is acceptable!

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz ooh

@barbarabeeton Just reading your TUG2020 musings: Very enjoyable! The dinner schedule story made me smile!

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz oh no

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz oopsie sorry, it's my "dinner" trigger :)

@JosephWright did we have a plan for alerting translators to major changes, I could drop a note pointing at the diff in the various language issues, or do we just hope that anyone actively translating is watching the repository and will see PR anyway...

@DavidCarlisle Yes, I'm not really sure how we handle it - perhaps for the present we just mail the small set of people directly?

@PauloCereda wait, you're scripting your replies? Most likely so that you can go to have dinner while still chatting with us.

@JosephWright yes probably better, will do that this evening

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz Actually, I meant a "brain trigger" when reading "dinner". :) But I could try bring Psmith back. :)

@PauloCereda and have him reply with "oh no" whenever someone types in "dinner"?

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz quite possible. :)

@PauloCereda we miss Psmith :)

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz <3

@DavidCarlisle @JosephWright oopsie twitter.com/MattGarrahan/status/1308413421843615752

@DavidCarlisle tex.stackexchange.com/questions/563867/… <- Looks like the perfect question for you: How to deal with multilingual text while being restricted to emacs :P

@MarcelKrüger \selectlanguage{englisch} ?

@MarcelKrüger I answered this already in 1998 see The answer ... at groups.google.com/g/comp.text.tex/c/2kpfq1470MU/m/…

@DavidCarlisle -- I think that clears up what I questioned. Thanks.

@barbarabeeton thanks for looking again

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz I have no idea :-/

@MarcelKrüger Apparently intopdf is broken :(

@PabloGonzálezL how?

@UlrikeFischer The documentation example does not work for me :(

I don't know how to search in my previous messages, that's where I wrote the error

How can I do this in LaTeX (possibly with tikz): imgur.com/7hzOtPG

I want a macro that produces such rings around math formulae

@PabloGonzálezL well it still uses \luatex_pdfextension:D. Open an issue at the github.

@UlrikeFischer Or ping @MarcelKrüger, who's handily just arrived

@JosephWright plot twist: @MarcelKrüger is a bot written in Lua.

@PabloGonzálezL I have to go right now, but I'll deal with it tomorrow. IIRC the l3drivers branch should work.

^^ that's bot talk :)

@PauloCereda No way, Bruno wrote me in plain TeX.

@MarcelKrüger hmmm that's also very plausible :)

@DavidCarlisle @samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz twitter.com/NintendoAmerica/status/1308813486559047680

@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer, @PauloCereda (others) See twitter.com/texdevnet/status/1308785426212233217 for some thoughts on learnlatex.org

@ComFreek you can use tikzmark near the a to mark that part of the formula then use a tikz overlay that draws a loop at that position

@JosephWright yes I'd wondered about renaming that comes from the original latexonline.cc

@DavidCarlisle Might be a good plan; I think we have covered the fact an install is optional (just re-read lesson 2)

@DavidCarlisle Interesting our ideas match up pretty closely with the ninja's :)

@JosephWright yes I don't now if it's clear enough (since we dropped the copy button) that cntrl-A in the editor will select an example so you can copy/paste it locally

@JosephWright you should replace the favicon with Jonas'.

@PauloCereda I'm leaving everything design-related alone; don't want mess-ups at this stage

@PauloCereda github pages is still running of master, all Jonas' changes are in a separate branch for future use

@DavidCarlisle Hmm, we can say in Lesson 2 but beyond that I'm not sure what we can do

@JosephWright no I agree not much you could do, I could add a download button but really it's a waste of space in the gui and cut and paste to an editor is probably simpler than dumping the file in your system download area anyway

@PauloCereda it's not that bad:-)

@DavidCarlisle according to an expert, it is. :)

@PauloCereda don't believe everything you read on the internet

@DavidCarlisle it was on email, so it must be true. :)

@DavidCarlisle and you pay the guy, hence it must be true. :)

@PauloCereda I've had emails from Brazilian ducks and they were all clearly nonsense, I don't believe any of them.

@DavidCarlisle :)

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz @barbarabeeton ^^

@DavidCarlisle @JosephWright do you plan to change your names to contain the website URL? ;-)

A bunny and a cappy

@StefanKottwitz heavens no. :)

@StefanKottwitz :)

@PauloCereda -- Awww...

@PauloCereda nice! so any article or post on latex.net or latex.org et al. is very welcome, to help promoting that useful site!

@StefanKottwitz @DavidCarlisle_also_at_learnlatex.org_but_that_is_really_a_front_for_latexcgi.xyz

@PauloCereda also duck pictures ;-) the green LaTeX3 duck is pretty btw.!

@DavidCarlisle If you omit the underscores, it's more fun

@StefanKottwitz sorry, English people need help with word division

@DavidCarlisle register that domain name before somebody takes it!

@DavidCarlisle can I reach you at mail@DavidCarlisle_also_at_learnlatex.org_but_that_is_really_a_front_for_latexcgi.xyz ?

@DavidCarlisle Oh I forgot it's just a chat handle

@StefanKottwitz The favicon on LaTeX.net looks quite non-TeXy ;)

@TeXnician A very very ligature? (so VV with emphasation on serif)

looks like a W though

@StefanKottwitz Well, if it would not look like the Wordpress-W which is far from a TeX-related software I would say a curvy letter could suit the purpose. But sometimes similarity with brands is not the best idea to have the user associate the site with TeX…

@TeXnician It's so non-far that they provide the software that runs that TeX site but right I can check if it makes sense. I rarely notice favicons though.

@StefanKottwitz I only noticed when I bookmarked the site to stay in the loop of postings there ;)

@TeXnician You got me! I'll work on the favicon!

@JosephWright With openin_any=p (in texmf.cnf), the test \IfFileExists{xparse-generic.tex) succeeds, but \file_input:n { xparse-generic.tex } doesn't.

@egreg Will be due to \pdffilesize vs \openin I guess

@egreg Bug in pdfTeX

@egreg and in lualatex nothing works at all (not even article.cls is loaded

@JosephWright Nice!

@JosephWright the OP is using xetex

@DavidCarlisle ooh

$ lualatex dd224
This is LuaHBTeX, Version 1.12.0 (TeX Live 2020)
 restricted system commands enabled.
(./dd224.tex
LaTeX2e <2020-02-02> patch level 5


 L3 programming layer <2020-09-06>
lualatex: Not reading from /usr/local/texlive/2020/texmf-dist/tex/latex/base/article.cls (openin_any = p).


! LaTeX Error: File `article.cls' not found.

@DavidCarlisle Same thing :)

@DavidCarlisle Oops

@DavidCarlisle Not My Fault

@JosephWright In my mind the button was always "design and so wait for Jonas" ;-)

@DavidCarlisle that is old: tex.stackexchange.com/questions/292363/…, and in the issue tracker Hans said "we won't change it".

@UlrikeFischer yes except it comes out of my runlatex javascript so ...

what kind of tools publishers use to draw this kind of drawing?

@CroCo ^^ but you could use tikz, probably:-)