@PauloCereda hello, Mr. Duck!

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz hi mr. rabbit!

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz Of course

@JosephWright I published expkv v1.0 yesterday in which I rewrote the key-splitting part completely. I try to create a pull-request this evening or tomorrow which ports this over to \keys_parse:NNn. The new code is a bit more complicated and based even more on TeX's delimited argument rules to split and branch in a single step, removing the need to test for equal signs prior to splitting.

Which reminds me, I still have to install TL20

I guess now I can wait the two days for the official release, saves me from changing the mirror in the pretest :)

SOMETHING TERRIBLE HAS HAPPENED! I needed to restore my FF to defaults. Now TeX.SX looks terrible again. I have a strong summer 2018 flashback.

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz oh no

@PauloCereda guess I'll give up and just accept ugliness. Keeps me from fighting windmills.

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz "Facts are the enemy of the truth" -- Dom Quixote

ooh windmills

@JosephWright this latexonline docker thing works quite well I think davidcarlisle.github.io/ll/en/lesson-6

@barbarabeeton twitter.com/DickKingSmith/status/1247755564685250572 (enable sound)

@DavidCarlisle Excellent

@DavidCarlisle Should I start on some 'lesson 0' text? 'How to use the site' plus perhaps a pointer to lesson 2 (which I guess I might write too)

@JosephWright yes I could move that javascript to the real site? (I have the code that @StefanKottwitz used to link to overleaf as well, but it's not working for me, not sure why, so the overleaf code is stubbed out currently, but it might be worth adding this already)

@DavidCarlisle Yes, of course: we need to start assembling this stuff, not least so everyone can make sure their demos actually work

@DavidCarlisle In the end it might be a good idea to add some javascript checks, just for the suspicious people out there who does not enable javascript to be run from everywhere.

And if the page is wide enough mode the latexonline.cc next to the source code.

@daleif Design is for-later

@daleif the buttons are added by javascript so if javascript is off then should just be a pre I think, but I'll check.

@JosephWright that as well:-)

@daleif The entire point is to help beginners who want online training ...

@DavidCarlisle I think the combo we have looks good, so I'll write some text to explain it

@DavidCarlisle Firefox' noscript addon lets to specifically specify which external sites to run javascript from. It wasn't untill I clicked the latexonline.cc button that that site was even seen

That is presumably because it only runs inside the iframe.

@daleif happy to take code suggestions but if you have enabled such an addon presumably getting javascript blocked on unknown sites isn't an expected behaviour, and not something that the site should guard against?

@DavidCarlisle that is really nice. On whose server will then this be running? And can one configure the handling of errors?

@JosephWright thinking about it, this proves to be a bit more complicated than I thought. I can't guarantee that big of a performance leap. Your strange design choice to throw errors on multiple equal signs overcomplicates the splitting part. The pull request will take a bit longer, I have to try things...

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz 'Strange'?

@DavidCarlisle I see it's now live in for example learnlatex.github.io/en/lesson-10

@DavidCarlisle This looks really good: exactly what I had in mind

@JosephWright :) Well, my design choice for expkv was to always grab lazily, so the first equal sign (of cat 12 or 13) is separating the key from the value and every additional equal sign belongs to the value.

@UlrikeFischer @JosephWright some free docker host (but the whole setup is on github with instructions on how to self-host if needed) it also has parameters that allow it to run bibtex (and use xetex or luatex instead of pdftex) but currently I haven't set up any javascript that allows you to set them within the page, so the bibtex example lesson fails,

@JosephWright yes all lessons should have it now, so long as the code block has \documentclass the buttons should appear

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz I can live with a change ...

@DavidCarlisle Great

@DavidCarlisle Does mean we have to write out 'full' examples, but that's something I think we can live with

@JosephWright that would be a regression, I think.

@DavidCarlisle It's a starting point, we can build on what we have

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz No, not if it's deliberate

@JosephWright perhaps first ask Frank for his opinion?

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz I think @DavidCarlisle is a better bet ;)

@JosephWright no we can have fragments but as for bibtex comment above it's not done yet. it's already got javascript doing a text search todecide what to do if it can recognise a fragment that could be made into a document with a standard preamble, (eg a magic comment, or all of te rest depending) that is easy to add

Have a work conf call, back in a bit...

@JosephWright I thought Frank, since he's the "boss" :) But we can ask @DavidCarlisle as well.

@DavidCarlisle there is a big issue with the current latexonline.cc solution. Have you ever tested it with an external pdf viewer configured in your browser?

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz Ideally, everything would be done in JavaScript as for other languages: we are aiming at beginners, which means 'standard' set ups ...

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz Er, well yes he is, but it's quite a flexible set up

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz There's a reason I think we do want Overleaf set up; longer-term, that's a solution learners might be able to stick with

@JosephWright well, let's say the learnlatex.cc plugin behaves overly eager.

@JosephWright I'll try to create a small gif demonstrating the current behaviour :)

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz I said to Karl that there is regrettibly no 'perfect' solution

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz I'm happy to talk details, but the key is to have something that works for the majority of our target audience. I'm thinking people on locked-down PCs at work or university, with little-to-know IT 'experience'

The problem I have with latexonline.cc:

It spawns new PDF-viewer instances periodically if you have an extern PDF-viewer configured in FF.

@DavidCarlisle So we could have some way of setting up fragments? Pick a standard preamble with all the packages we talk about?

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz That is probably one to report to latexonline.cc

@JosephWright probably. I'll try :)

@DavidCarlisle did you make any adjustments which could be blamed or are you using some standard docker image?

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz Like I said, one question is how typical your set up is; I think most newer users will have Chrome + built-in viewer

@JosephWright or FF+built-in viewer. That one is behaving correctly as well.

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz Sure: I use FF (have done since it was called Phoenix)

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz My point is that I'd like the perfect not to be the enemy of the good ;)

@JosephWright ooh

@JosephWright yes, and I admit that my setup is non-standard in many (read: almost all) aspects. But that's why I spot such bugs. Currently creating an issue on their github.

@PauloCereda Before that I used Communicator, and before that Navigator

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz Indeed: report and get them to fix it, perhaps I might even be able to sponsor them (hopefully my cash-raising efforts are working)

@JosephWright You sound as old as @DavidCarlisle :)

@PauloCereda I don't quite get back before the Eternal September started ...

@JosephWright yes currently it gets the string for the code block tests if it has \documentclass and if so sets up the buttons. There is no else branch but there could be one. If it was every code block then you couldn't sensibly have really small fragments like a single definition but we could use a magic comment or ```tex instead of ```latex to suppress the buttons or ....

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz no just a single REST call to latexonline.cc with the url-encoded docuemnt in a ?text=... URI

@JosephWright @DavidCarlisle issue created: github.com/aslushnikov/latex-online/issues/61 any information I should add?

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@DavidCarlisle One for discussion once we have enough demos

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz Thanks

@DavidCarlisle Add some detail to our tracking issue?

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz would probably have been better as an issue on learnlatex (is it's most likely the iframe embedding)

@DavidCarlisle Ah, right

@DavidCarlisle right, that's a possibility. We'll see how they react.

@DavidCarlisle I liked your first comment, though. It showed the same behaviour with that link.

Ah, I should work... Off for a while. :)

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz yes but when I wrote it I thought it was "my" issue, noticed after it was on that site:-)

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz github.com/learnlatex/learnlatex.github.io/issues/18

@DavidCarlisle The Overleaf links look great!

@DavidCarlisle I think we are really going to deliver what we want

@JosephWright ooh

@DavidCarlisle Oh I should log into some other account to test this really :-)

@DavidCarlisle Note that logged users can make a copy of a read-only project.

And there is also this @JosephWright @DavidCarlisle : overleaf.com/devs (this is probably the proper option for the use case)

@yo' My plan was to ask your boss when we are ready ;)

@JosephWright should I create an issue on the l3 repo regarding the doubled equal signs restriction?

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz Please yes

@JosephWright yeah, my boss's boss actually :-)

@JosephWright I just thought I would share this as it may slightly influence how you design things...

@JosephWright github.com/latex3/latex3/issues/698, with my limited communication abilities.

@yo' yes although here (currently) you can edit on site before going to overleaf, so pushing the document might be better (or we could refactor it to only allow in site editing in the latexonline case)

@yo' that's exactly the form im using "Post a Snippet by URI (URL)" at that URL

@yo' the button just sends submit() to this form:

 <form style="display:none" id="form-xxx" action="https://www.overleaf.com/docs" method="post">
  <input id="encoded_snip-xxx" name="encoded_snip" value="" />
 </form>

after filling in the value from the current text in the code block.

@DavidCarlisle well, Overleaf API allows also to open a file that ready on the internet...

@yo' yes but these files are not on the internet, you may have just written it in your browser (try the edit button, and change the text before hitting the overleaf button)

@DavidCarlisle well, hitting "Edit" removed "Open in Overleaf" :)

@yo' it didn't earlier today, let me try....

@DavidCarlisle which link is it? I got lost in the various tests.

@yo' what browser? If I go to lesson 3 I can edit to change first to SECOND ^^^^ and then open in overleaf with that new text

@UlrikeFischer learnlatex.github.io/en/lesson-03

@DavidCarlisle the open in overleaf asks me to log in first. Is this expected?

@DavidCarlisle I'm here: davidcarlisle.github.io/texlive.js/test2

@UlrikeFischer Yes

@UlrikeFischer yes (one reason for having the aternatives available. It won't ask if you have a login cached in the cookies in your browser, it doesn't ask me)

@UlrikeFischer Overleaf used to have anonymous projects (projects without an owner), but it turned out not to be the greatest of features...

@yo' use learnlatex.github.io/en/lesson-03 the one in my account is a lot more experimental, I just use it so as not to leave the more or less public one in the learnlatex account broken while I teach myself more javascript

@DavidCarlisle got it, thanks!

@yo' yes, I know. I only wanted to get a confirmation.

@UlrikeFischer but if you have logged in recently I'm surprised it asked you

@DavidCarlisle I logged out again, I don't use overleaf much so unlike tex.sx I don't keep it open all the time.

@DavidCarlisle ok. It should be possible to set up the project title via the API, but I suppose you're getting there.

@UlrikeFischer I log in to overleaf with my google account so it may just be enough to have that cached (I'm not sure) and I'm pretty much always logged in to that. Anyway @JosephWright is going to write a lesson-0 how to use the site that explains all this, once it's stable:-)

@yo' @UlrikeFischer would be proud of me if I said that having the doc rather than reverse engineering the texnique.fr code might help there:-) so thanks for that link....

@DavidCarlisle that's fine, then I can read some documentation ;-)

@DavidCarlisle hahaha that one is useful, but it's not really easy to find I think...

@DavidCarlisle btw I think that if you log out of Overleaf, you'll be logged out. Just if next time you click Login with Google, you won't be asked any permissions.

@DavidCarlisle I logged in now. I can edit in learnlatex and then open in overleaf, but when I go back to learnlatex, my carefully inserted "blub" and "grüße" are gone again ;-(

@UlrikeFischer yes I think that's a temporary feature. I was having problems getting it to work at all so I stripped back the form to the bare minimum which means currently it replaces the current document (so you lose your edits) I should be able to add a target back so it opens in a new window or tab so you keep your edits in the existing window) or potentially could run overleaf in an iframe in the same window, like the latex online button but that might be a bit fragile (or blocked)

@DavidCarlisle yes, I'm quite confident, that a solution is possible. What do you get as output from \pdfcreationdate?

@UlrikeFischer ^^

@DavidCarlisle ;-) You got the Z (I hoped for it). Can you test if \filemoddate{\jobname.log} works with xelatex for you and what it outputs?

@UlrikeFischer with latexonline?

@DavidCarlisle doesn't have to. I only need the output from a place where there is no time offset.

@UlrikeFischer we are an hour off GMT now but I could try teh online one?

New disk in the computer -> Word is still crashing. For the local administrator account it doesn't crash. As soon as I log in with my network account it does. So I think we start to narrow the problem down.

@DavidCarlisle I tried overleaf and got the Z as output.

@StefanKottwitz hi, I borrowed your overleaf link code:-) (actually I simplified it as all the main browsers have .innerText now)

@DavidCarlisle Sure, that's good!

@UlrikeFischer Overleaf link at learnlatex.github.io/en/lesson-03 should open in a new tab/window and so preserve your edits now.

@DavidCarlisle work fine.

@DavidCarlisle Very very impressive

@JosephWright getting there slowly, main thing not working is that the syntax highlighting interferes with edits. (try adding a newline) not sure yet whether to make the edit button remove highlighting or try to bind the return key to force a newline in the current markup, either is possible but the latter might have some OS/browser issues as it's keyboard remapping essentially.

@DavidCarlisle when one has used the latexonline button, how can one "close" the pdf view again?

@UlrikeFischer either refresh the page or wait for me to add a close button:-)

@DavidCarlisle ;-). When I start to edit everything is underlined in red, is that my browser or you doing the spell checking? (I think it is my browser, I need to find out how to disable this).

@UlrikeFischer but perhaps people would prefer it to open in a new window like the overleaf one? it doesn't have to be in an iframe

@UlrikeFischer yes that's spell checking I think there is an api to disable it, I'll check later

@DavidCarlisle I found the setting in my browser and enabled English, now it complains only about \documentclass.

@UlrikeFischer Seltsamerweise ist meine standardmäßig Englisch

@UlrikeFischer there is a element.spellcheck = false; Javascript call on the element node, I'll set that up later,

@PauloCereda -- sadly, the antiquity of my laptop doesn't permit twitter action to be shown, and the sound is also unretrievable. (But I found another source for the action, and it's delightful!)

@DavidCarlisle well it will depend on the final layout, but imho it is quite good to have everything in one window. You can more easily compare the code and the output. But the button to "recompile" should be above the iframe.

@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer Did you see the text I added to the index page? Is that enough detail, or do we need a full 'lesson'?

@JosephWright you should mention that the overleaf link will only work if a account is setup first.

@UlrikeFischer Ah, perhaps

@UlrikeFischer I want to cover Overleaf properly in lesson 2: let me get that written first

@JosephWright sure there are still many things to do. Regarding the examples: I would make them "complete" with \documentclass etc. It adds only 3 lines but avoids to have to explain that they compile because of some hidden preamble/javascript/whatever.

@UlrikeFischer My feeling too: it's clearer for the beginner

@UlrikeFischer I'll sort that once we have a reasonably-complete set of examples and know which ones should compile and which should not

@JosephWright and hopefully trains them to always show a complete example ;-)

@UlrikeFischer spell check disabled

@UlrikeFischer can you not enable an account as a response to that link?

@DavidCarlisle works ^^^^

@UlrikeFischer imposter

@DavidCarlisle or impostor?

@DavidCarlisle probably, but imho it is better to warn people that this a needed step.

The FB ad algorithm is doing well. Lots of anti-virus software ads.

@AlanMunn hah. Maybe they do have upsells as everyone is setting up proper home office :)

(I mean, it could also be that many companies don't have money to spend on ads)

@yo' It does seem to be very sensitive to what shows up in your feed. A friend posted a picture from the Tropicana Diner, and I started immediately getting ads for Tropicana orange juice. And my feed is filled with Covid-19 stuff as I'm part of a group where current research papers are being summarized.

@AlanMunn Well, yeah, probably right. And also there'll be many more IT companies seeing upsells...

@UlrikeFischer delete output button added and buttons above the output

@DavidCarlisle nice. the latex version is quite old ;-(, no tikz and ducks and bears and chessboards.

@UlrikeFischer well once it's more complete we could ask for an update or we could self host and add more but no tikzducks is a feature not a bug

@DavidCarlisle but one needs the ducks to decorate the menu.

Is it possible remove immediatly this recent bad/spam answer, please?

@Sebastiano already gone