@DavidCarlisle as long as it's not the colortbl manual's colour palette.

@Skillmon don't you like cheerful colours?

@DavidCarlisle there is cheerful, and then there is eye-cancer causing brightness.

@Skillmon I'm not taking colour advice from a pink rabbit

@DavidCarlisle :)

@DavidCarlisle That's a rabbit? If so, it's a mutant rabbit from a bad dream.

@yo' -- Here's a good show from your town ... youtube.com/watch?v=_Effvz9H9UQ and youtube.com/watch?v=JQaV3Ahj3Pg ... with subtitles in Japanese. I couldn't understand a word. (Well, very few.)

@barbarabeeton lovely, thank you! <3

@DavidCarlisle oh no

@FaheemMitha I wouldn't have guessed so but @PauloCereda and @Skillmon seem to claim it is a rabbit (I don't think they get out much to see real animals)

@DavidCarlisle ooh quack

@PauloCereda ooh breakfast

@DavidCarlisle oh no

@PauloCereda Thanks for your email.

@PauloCereda Do you still use Threema?

@HenriMenke my pleasure. <3

@HenriMenke thanks for the luatex patch, had you found that already or did you find it between getting my email and posting a reply (impressively quick if the latter:-)

@HenriMenke I have to install it in my new phone. Will do later on today. Sorry... :(

@PauloCereda New phone?

@DavidCarlisle The latter. I saw you message and quickly grepped my local copy of the LuaTeX git repo.

@DavidCarlisle I actually don't know whether that fixes the bug, but that is the most obvious different between \openin and \input.

@JosephWright Redmi Note 7. Fantastic and very affordable phone!

@HenriMenke thanks:-) Hopefully they'll get a change in for tl2020

@DavidCarlisle I'll quickly build LuaTeX and test the fix.

uber-facts.com/…

\input hello

and

\input{hello}

both work but

\newread\1
\openin\1=hello
\ifeof\1 {\bf not found}\fi
\loop\unless\ifeof\1
    \read\1 to\x
    \x
\repeat

and

\newread\2
\openin\2={hello}
\ifeof\2 {\bf not found}\fi
\loop\unless\ifeof\2
    \read\2 to\x
    \x
\repeat

\bye

@DavidCarlisle ^^^I tested with this MWE

@DavidCarlisle Luigi seems to already look at it.

@HenriMenke Threema restored. :)

@FaheemMitha never claimed I was, but that's my father:

@Skillmon ooh

@barbarabeeton There are good old 90s :D

@JosephWright Overleaf now officially on TeX Live 2019

@yo' +1 for tl2019, -2 for the duck so a net negative, sorry.

> Thank you for writing in, I'll pass your message to our product team

:D

@yo' you could also mention: vvv

$ pdflatex '\stop'
This is pdfTeX, Version 3.14159265-2.6-1.40.21 (TeX Live 2020) (preloaded format=pdflatex)
 restricted \write18 enabled.
entering extended mode
LaTeX2e <2019-10-01> patch level 3

@DavidCarlisle this is planned later this year :)

@yo' oh you are making the latex-dev releases available as well, I hadn't expected that (might even be worth a +0.9 to almost get you back in good books:-)

@DavidCarlisle yes, via latexmkrc. You can actually do a lot using latexmkrc tricks (one of the reasons why it's necessary to use docker).

Meanwhile, no arara support... :(

@PauloCereda who needs that:-)

@PauloCereda I never actually tested this, but I think it's doable...

@DavidCarlisle that hurts... :(

@yo' oh

@DavidCarlisle Carnegie Mellon oh

@PauloCereda I thought it's gonna be easy, but it's not that easy :(

@yo' :(

I'll check later!

@DavidCarlisle oh

@yo' Having never actually used docker, how do you use it for overleaf?

@daleif each compilation is dockerized for safety reasons; even if you managed to run rm -rf.... (you know what) from pdflatex, you wouldn't damage anything; the compilation would time out after 60 seconds and you'd get no output, and that's it.

@yo' cool, so is each compilation process spins a new docker instance and then it just dies afterwards?

@daleif yep. Quite an overhead (the image is, as you can imagine, several GB), but it's necessary

@yo' given the number of users that mus mean many many servers. Perhaps I should consider using docker compilation for some of my PDF generating webapps.

@yo' That's an awful lot of CPU power, and hence energy usage.

this is a very random number (the fluctuation is huge), but when I clicked a couple seconds ago, it was 36.

@FaheemMitha if you believe so :-)

@FaheemMitha not necessarily, there is a lot of caching and memoization involved.

There must be more efficient ways to do this. Make it more difficult for users to damage the instance?

@yo' ?

@FaheemMitha no way Overleaf would ever risk comprimising security by not dockerizing the images.

@FaheemMitha The ease for the admins I think makes it well worth it.

@daleif yes. :)

@yo' Ok. Still seems like a lot of overhead.

@FaheemMitha remember that this all usually happens in memory, not on disks.

Computers already waste enormous amounts of energy.

There is a lot of parsing needed if you want to secure user input. This is just a lot easier.

@yo' Does that make a difference?

@FaheemMitha energy-wise? Sure :-)

@FaheemMitha in orders of magnitude.

@yo' Yes, energy-wise. I suppose it would. So the whole instance lives in RAM?

@FaheemMitha I'm afraid we're getting into details I cannot answer (not that I wouldn't like to, but I simply don't know enough about it)

@yo' Ok.

you can actually download and install Overleaf yourself (well, a limited Community Edition)

@yo' Oh. You mean on a random computer?

@FaheemMitha well, on a random *nix computer, yes

@yo' Right, Unix computer.

@FaheemMitha github.com/overleaf/overleaf/wiki

I recall that Overleaf was a smaller project once, and had a different name. It seems to have upped its game in recent years.

@FaheemMitha the company is still called WriteLaTeX. And it merged with ShareLaTeX. And now it's Overleaf.

@yo' I don't follow (not that it matters). What is now Overleaf?

Not the company, I take it.

@FaheemMitha well, the product is called Overleaf now. It used to be called WriteLaTeX. And there used to be a second project called ShareLaTeX, which merged in.

@yo' I understand. So there is one product now, called Overleaf. Which you now work on.

@yo' do you have any experience of the overhead of docker vs a travis CI style of winding up a vm with a new ubuntu each time?

WriteLaTeX and ShareLaTeX combined to form Overleaf? But I wonder how combinable they were.

@DavidCarlisle no, not really. (I'm not the dev here, the only thing I care about is the texlive subtrees :-) ) But if you were really interested, I could probably contact you with some people here.

@FaheemMitha well, the company managed. (And we still keep TeXLive images from the old days for both SL and WL for compatibility.)

@yo' not really (I keep thinking I should try docker but never get round to it:-)

@DavidCarlisle haha. If you wish, installing the OL image might be quite easy and you already get a full texlive with it :-) (I have never done it myself though)

@DavidCarlisle the Island can help you. :)

@PauloCereda I was trying to remember if it was the island thing or henri had announced docker images recently:-) so would a travis ci run using a docker tl image be quicker than just caching the tl directory in a basic travis vm ?

@DavidCarlisle let me redirect your inquiry to our customer service: @TeXnician HELP

We ducks are very efficient

s/efficient/tasty/

OH NO

Hi! I just uploaded circuitikz 1.0.0-pre2... let's see if I can make a 1.0.0 on 20200202. Can I? Or it will be appropriation? (20200204 is also possible, it's a bittersweet date for me).

@DavidCarlisle I just cited you in the second line here tex.stackexchange.com/a/525337/38080 --- I do not know if you count the citations for you H index... ;-)

@Rmano we are planning a big latex release dated 20200202 (although it may actually be uploaded to ctan a but after that)

@Rmano people are so rude to me around here. I blame @egreg for setting a bad example:-)

@DavidCarlisle yes, I know... I am checking with pdflatex-dev every other day so I think I should be safe... or shouldn't I?

@Rmano yes there are no code changes planned , just sorting out final documentation things so pdflatex-dev should be pretty close if not identical to the main release.

@yo' So now XeTeX has all the goodies :)

@JosephWright probably :)

@yo' Tom, mind if I poke you? :)

@PauloCereda go ahead, I'll open GT

@DavidCarlisle It was the island. @PauloCereda

It probably is but we never benchmarked.

If you do multiple stages caching is probably faster but I do not know enough about Travis to make an informed statement.

@JosephWright re:twitter, you have a point, I raised it

@yo' Thanks

dear community, I edited tex.stackexchange.com/questions/230112/… and believe the question is now sufficiently clear to warrant an answer. If not clear, please comment on what is not clear... cheers

commitstrip.com/en/2020/01/21/not-so-simple

@ingli I voted, but why run: ? when you say the #anchor is cut off so you mean you checked the internal link in the pdf or simply that your pdf viewer did not use it (that may depend on the viewer used, also does the run: http schema include fragment identifiers?)

@DavidCarlisle Thanks. I got curious about the run: ... I have seen such links in the past, but am not using the run: myself currently. I edit(ed) this question to learn about the case... I have now edited the question to specify that I used two pdf viewers. According to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_URI_schemes run is not an URI scheme.

@ingli no I checked it is hyperref you get

/Subtype/Link/A<</Type/Action/S/URI/URI(http:relative_path2/filename.html#anchor2)
/Subtype/Link/A<</F(relative_path/filename.html)/S/Launch/Win<</P(anchor)/F(relative_path/filename.html)

I would have to check the PDF spec (or ask @UlrikeFischer, which is easier:-) but I suspect that this is as it should be and run and file protocols take a filename so # is not legal

@DavidCarlisle Sounds about right to me

@JosephWright if you open it I'll add an answer:-)

@DavidCarlisle ok, thank you for the clarification. Wouldn't your analysis then be an appropriate answer?

@DavidCarlisle oh, you were faster ;)

@ingli can't post an answer while it's closed (it would have been simpler if you had just asked a new question but may as well do this one now:-)

@DavidCarlisle Done

@JosephWright thanks

@DavidCarlisle he is a witch

@PauloCereda thanks all! I learned something new :) and am happy to have contributed to resolving the 2015 question ;)

@ingli wooooo

I somehow helped

@DavidCarlisle ^^

@PauloCereda first time for everything! (but actually your help was not needed, as Joseph wielded his extra powers)

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@UlrikeFischer I'm a bit confused, if I compile from texlive-source on github I end ip withh 1.11.2 not 1.12.0 and ny test file fails, that would be OK, just wait for 1.12 tto be pushed to tl but the changelog already says

which version did you get from Akira's site?

@DavidCarlisle I have in the experimental branch 1.12.0, Development id: 7264. And I just checked again: \openin\@inputcheck noextension doesn't work for me.

@DavidCarlisle but Luigi is doing $ cat test.tex so he isn't really testing a file without extension doesn't he?

@UlrikeFischer oh for **** do you want to reply (with a 1.12 test) or should I (although I only have 1.11, which is a bit odd as I did a git pull first, I thought, but perhaps it is not in the main texlive branch yet)

@DavidCarlisle oh

@DavidCarlisle I'm currently not really able to post to the list - gmane and the wlan here don't like each other. I can only read the archives.

@UlrikeFischer I'll mail

@JosephWright We in the end likely won't be removing [utf8]{inputenc}; a lot of our contents is commonly shared with people and places who have older TLs, such as arXiv.

We know it's not the optimal solution, but we think that at least as long as arXiv may need it, we better keep it as well.

@DavidCarlisle Non c'è limite al peggio: delish.com/food-news/a27507153/…

@CarLaTeX Inviami il tuo indirizzo di casa e vedrò se consegneranno.

@CarLaTeX you could invite @egreg along for a shared culinary experience.

imagine that topped with kiwis instead of pineapple

(spoiler alert: I bet it's awesome)

@FélixGagnon-Grenier from which I assume we can deduce you are not Italian? :-)

haha indeed :P

.. are Italians really as mad at food as the memes let believe?

@FélixGagnon-Grenier if you had been before, you would not have been after that statement, they would have expelled you.

serious business

@FélixGagnon-Grenier ask @CarLaTeX if she would be prepared to try pineapple pizza, then stand back and wait for the response.

hmmm yeah, noted. I'm still unsure of this room's view on that, and should have erred on the cautious side.

you can remove it at will.

@FélixGagnon-Grenier you could have done for 2 minutes, I can't

@DavidCarlisle why does xr-hyper add the three empty braces here:

{\expandafter\protected@xdef\csname r@\XR@prefix#2\endcsname{\XR@addURL{#3}{}{}{}}}%

@UlrikeFischer so if you reference a document that didn't use hyperref so only has two fields not 4 doesn't blow up (as far as i remember from my youth)

@UlrikeFischer not had time to look at the issue that just came in

@FélixGagnon-Grenier Yes, they are

Hmmm. If ever I travel to Italy, I'll make sure not to tease then, wouldn't want to unleash the wrath of a whole country :P

@CarLaTeX That's why you guys supply so much great local entertainment. :)

@FélixGagnon-Grenier Only if you pay for me a trip to Hawaii

@AlanMunn :P

hmmm... when I'm a millionaire, I'll think about it

@yo' I understand your logic, but that is likely to bite people at some stage; using TL'19 engines they'll do stuff that TL'1X can't do (for X<9)

@yo' I'll just have to ask again another year ;)

@CarLaTeX Giusto prima di cena.... :( disgusting (even the canned spaghetti alone, mind you...)

@FélixGagnon-Grenier just don't call it Italian pizza... What about a quiche with tomato, pineapple and spaghetti ;-P?

wow, you even propose to add eggs to the mix!!!? :P

@FélixGagnon-Grenier :P the greater the distance, the better

Nutella pizza is good.

<3

theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/23/…

Brexit is coming ...

There's a Game of Thrones "Winter is coming" vibe to this...

Oh no

/quacks in despair

@DavidCarlisle won't take me to a cricket game anymore...

@Rmano ooh a tomato-pineapple-spaghetti-quiche-thingy pizza

and coriander

@Rmano Disgusting, indeed!

@JosephWright yeah. Well, this is one that's difficult. You know well (and @DavidCarlisle even better) that you still meet people using \documentstyle :-) I think that once arXiv synchronizes to something that doesn't need utf8 inputenc, we will reconsider.

@JosephWright July hopefully (for TL2020) btw, will you be at Rochester?

@yo' Is there a way to upgrade a document on Overleaf? My understanding is that documents preserve the TL version they started with.

@AlanMunn either you make a copy of the project (this detaches the history though), or you write to support@overleaf.com with the URL of the project.

And yes, we preserve the versions, we prefer to give no surprises to the users; what worked 5 years ago should still work.

@yo' I see. It would be nice to have a way to do that I think. Also, it's not obvious that that's what is happening. Although I understand the "no surprises" position, I think the default assumption of users is that as TL versions change, documents will use the current version not some older version.

@AlanMunn there's a plan for this, though we need some other changes first before we can do it, unfortunately

@yo' So for me the surprise was that I couldn't change an existing document to use a new version of forest.

@AlanMunn ah yeah. I'll make a note that this should be more explicitly written at least in the blog post

(remember that only in Sep'19 we upgraded to TL18, and only couple months before we finally merged the two previous platforms, so there's still some work with usability)

Ah the blog post's first two sections are: Will my existing projects work as usual? and How can I switch to TeX Live 2019 for existing projects? :-)

@yo' Yes, I understand. And those two sections sound good! I just wonder whether the number of people affected by having no direct path to upgrade a document is going to be greater than the number of people who would encounter problems with an existing document and an up-to-date system. I guess it does depend a lot on the packages you use.

@yo' Sure

@yo' My own experience (not on Overleaf) is that most document continue to work as I upgrade my TL, but maybe that's just because of what I do.

@yo' Not sure just yet

@AlanMunn well, we decided that we prefer explaining users on support that their copied project does behave diffrently, than trying to find out that this project doesn't compile because it is supposed to be on TL2014 (yes, we do have such projects :-) )

@yo' Fair enough. :)

@AlanMunn and yes, the solution will be to have TL version switch available to the users.

@yo' That would indeed be the best longterm solution.

@AlanMunn it will (though I can't say when)

anyway, gotta goget something to eat

laters!

@PauloCereda I have never been to a cricket game, you need Nicola

@PauloCereda Nutella is good (on real bread) , pizza is good, with savory things on it... :P

I think it's written in Italian DNA, can't do anything against it ;)

@Rmano Yay!

@DavidCarlisle well you know, when you mix it's a matter of fifty-fifty chance ;-)...