12:45 AM
@DavidCarlisle niw is that a joke or a reality?

1:10 AM
@yo' real

1:26 AM
@DavidCarlisle and @yo' -- It's not "most" books just yet, but several important book series, with another very active series on the way. (I was copied on the message from the person who is now essentially my successor, and he's trustworthy about such things.) Journals will take a while -- I suspect it's because the production schedule is much more rushed than for books, and some automated checking, necessary to keep to schedule, is much more easily done in a dvi-output environment.

@barbarabeeton sorry for the over exaggeration hard for an outsider to translate from acronyms for book series to some objective quantity, but actually I was surprised, I didn't know the opentype fonts were in production at all.

@DavidCarlisle -- This was actually in planning at the time I left, and it sounds like it has actually happened. The series that were reported (three out of about a dozen) typically don't have lots of graphics, and one of them is a "small" format. They are also more textbook-y than expository. The stix2 fonts, being based on Times, are more compact than CM, so the expected result is a decreased page count per volume.

3 hours later…
4:37 AM
@PhelypeOleinik you have night mail :)

3 hours later…
7:18 AM
@PauloCereda I was wondering if that is what it was (Brazilian Portuguese); thanks for confirming it! Re “gringo”, I always thought it was a derogatory term used by people in Latin America about (white skinned?) Americans and Europeans, but Wikipedia put me straight. Especially this part: In Brazil, the word gringo means simply foreigner, and has no connection to any physical characteristics or specific countries.

Is Brazilian Portuguese different from regular Portuguese? And if so, how?

@FaheemMitha It's certainly different, but I am not the right person to say how. As I understand it, there are differences both in pronunciation and vocabulary. A bit like the difference between US English and The Queen's English. This should not come as a surprise. A few centuries of geographic separation will do that.
@FaheemMitha There is, of course, a wikipedia article. Note in particular the section on loanwords.

7:42 AM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen sorry, I had no idea that "gringo" had a possible derogatory connotation.

8:06 AM
@DavidCarlisle, @barbarabeeton That's interesting news and I wonder if AMS might be pursued to say something public about it; is it for example mentioned somewhere in 'Instructions for Authors'? It's something that the team generally and Will specifically likely need to keep in mind
@DavidCarlisle, @barbarabeeton Not that Will is about to break anything, more that it's a pretty clear sign that the days of pdfTeX as the major engine are limited; the AMS is probably one of the most 'conservative' publishers, so if XeTeX/Unicode/OpenType works there, it really should work for everyone
@barbarabeeton I see my article has already ruffled feathers because I want to use lots of non-Latin letters in monotype :)

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Yes, I momentarily forgot about Wikipedia. Thanks for the reminder. Though a native speaking probably has his or her own perspective.
@JosephWright I assumed LuaTeX was more likely. The version I heard was that once Harfbuzz was merged into LuaTeX (which, as I understand, has already happened), XeTeX would no longer have any compelling advantages.

@FaheemMitha AMS want stability, and at present LuaTeX is still a bit too risky; actually, I think that this is likely to change now that Hans has LuaMetaTeX, but that needs to be shown 'in the wild'

@JosephWright all my benchmarks are done in pdfTeX, so it'll be the most used engine for as long as I make benchmarks... :)

8:24 AM

@JosephWright really? We (Marcel and me) have a draft of an article which will need luahbtex ;-).

@JosephWright I see.

8:41 AM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen ooh vvvvvvv
Caipira — Spoken in the states of São Paulo (mostly in the countryside and rural areas); southern Minas Gerais, northern Paraná and southeastern Mato Grosso do Sul. Depending on the vision of what constitutes caipira, Triângulo Mineiro, border areas of Goiás and the remaining parts of Mato Grosso do Sul are included, and the frontier of caipira in Minas Gerais is expanded further northerly, though not reaching metropolitan Belo Horizonte. It is often said that caipira appeared by decreolization of the língua brasílica and the related língua geral paulista, then spoken in almost all of what
My "dialect". :)

9:13 AM

@DavidCarlisle you know this is Spanish, right? :)

@PauloCereda no difference really

@DavidCarlisle o.O
OH MY

better?

@DavidCarlisle phew, thank you. :)
This is a very happy hedgehog!

9:18 AM
@PauloCereda it is, but it doesn't realise it's about to be chucked in to the sea.

@DavidCarlisle oh no

9:29 AM
@JosephWright @barbarabeeton not particularly well advertised, but once you have a hint... if you go to the author resources for one of the book series, say ams.org/arc/books/book-produce.html and download maatex.zip the contained maabook.cls has:
\ifxetex
\ifnum\AMS@MAA@fontset>\@ne
\RequirePackage
[mathrm=sym,mathup=sym,mathit=sym,%
mathsf=sym,mathbf=sym,mathtt=sym]%
{unicode-math}[2015/09/24]
\def\square{\mdlgwhtsquare}
\def\blacksquare{\mdlgblksquare}
\fi
\ifcase\AMS@MAA@fontset
%% 0: CMR
\or %% 1 MathTimes2
\RequirePackage{mtpro2}
\or %% 2 STIX Two
\ifdim\number\XeTeXversion\XeTeXrevision in<0.99998in
\ClassWarning{\@classname}{%

9:48 AM
Should the LPPL be written as \LaTeX\ Project Public License or as LaTeX Project Public License inside of a LaTeX file?

10:17 AM
@Skillmon Normally it's only mentioned in the sources, but it if you put in typeset text, by consistent with how you write 'LaTeX' elsewhere (e.g. biblatex traditionally just said 'LaTeX' not \LaTeX, but most people go with the latter)

@JosephWright and \LaTeX\ it is :)
@JosephWright I think I'm finally ready to push expkv to CTAN. Let's test l3build upload.

@Skillmon YAY

10:44 AM
@Skillmon Good stuff
@Skillmon I've got one TUGboat in, so we can start thinking about one on keyval

11:33 AM
@barbarabeeton @DavidCarlisle cool, thanks for this insight!

Hi, this is Antariksh Pratham from India. I needed some help on a document. I am not able to get the borders on all pages. Can someone please help me? I can send my code here if it is needed

@AntarikshPratham best to ask a question on the main question and answer site, include a small but complete document that shows the problem. It is much harder to discuss code in this chat format.

Okay @DavidCarlisle but I am new to Stack Overflow so I have less reputation. That makes it really difficult for me to comment on posts. I already asked it as a question, but I guess not many saw it really for the same reasons
1

I am working on a report and I want a border on all pages. I have managed to have a border by using the solution provided here: https://tex.stackexchange.com/a/808/205277 But it won't work on all pages. Any ideas on how to do it? I so wanted to comment on the question itself for help but since I...

@AntarikshPratham far more people will see the question there than if you ask in chat (where basically only yo' and I will see it and it will scroll off soon and not be seen by anyone) But you need to improve your question include a small complete document that shows the problem. Currently your question says. "I did something and something did not work, how do I fix it" but without giving any hint of what ypu did or what error you got, nothing really can be said.

1 hour later…
1:03 PM
@JosephWright oh no! :(

1:27 PM
@JosephWright I hope it's free from hidden features.

1:44 PM
Why does hyperref have these horrible default colours for links? Pure RGB = (1,0,0) red, pure RGB = (0,1,0) green ... It just screams "I just typed values but I never actually looked at the colour"
It's one of the typical issues with creating visual things using code.
Code simplicity takes priority over aesthetics and visual usability
But LaTeX has packages which define decent colours ... so really there is no excuse for these horrific pure-RGB defaults

@Szabolcs because when it was designed, none of us had colour screens or printers....

But a couple of decades have passed. Surely it's time to fix it up? :-)

@Szabolcs You mean, you have bought a new screen since 1993? Luxury.

:D

@Szabolcs I would dearly love to make it default to not putting horrible red boxes around everything and use hidelinks or colour links as default, but I don't know if I dare.

1:57 PM
@DavidCarlisle That is a good idea!

We could say red boxes are now a Tradition in LaTeX land.

@mickep the "don't dare" bit is a good idea, or the first bit?:-)

I'm not being totally serious with the complaints, of course it's easy enough to fix these for myself.

@DavidCarlisle The first bit. It would really make the reading of arXiv manuscripts easier for the eyes...

@Szabolcs well it's true it does mean you can spot a hyperref document at 100 metres

2:20 PM
@Szabolcs yes but the defaults (especially the boxes) really are horrible, and I do have write access..... Probably we can't change hyperref but at some point there will no doubt be a more integrated l3 version and hopefully we can get better defaults...

@JosephWright Oh no!

2:50 PM
@JosephWright is that something bad I have to take care of:
...xlive/2019/texmf-dist/scripts/l3build/l3build-upload.lua:195: Warnings from CTAN package validation:

@Skillmon no contrib layer in generic: ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/generic

I admit it was my fault, the contrib path doesn't exist in generic...
@DavidCarlisle yeah, I know. That was my bad. But did the upload fail or will I get a friendly mail?

@Skillmon I think we ended up not submitting in that case: check at ctan.org/incoming

@DavidCarlisle doesn't look like it.
@DavidCarlisle would be great if that was clear from the output of l3build...

3:11 PM

@DavidCarlisle we could add an option "nicecolors". But someone else will have to suggest the colors (unless you want to use the colortbl or chessboard colors ...) - perhaps we could start a competition.

@DavidCarlisle Yes, the boxes are horrible, but my pet peeve after that is the colour named green, which is way too bright to be readable on a white background. It must be darkened considerably. Especially (though that is a different matter) when people use it in presentations. I realise that one can't just go and make the named colour darker, but it is tempting.

@Skillmon when validation passes there is another question if you really want to upload.

@UlrikeFischer Now I know that. But for a first-time user it was intuitive.
@UlrikeFischer just use the colours hyperref uses with the colorlinks option instead of the boxes, but mix those colours with <color>!80!black (looks a lot better at least for the red internal links, for external links I use purple!80!black, and I never have file-links)

@JosephWright -- I don't think it's so much the inclusion of non-Latin letters (which I think are really a good thing) as the fact that the font you call for isn't readily available, at least not from TeX Live/CTAN, and TUGboat doesn't have permission to use it. Font permission is nontrivial. Although permission is sometimes given for free, payment may be requested, or sometimes outright refusal.

3:17 PM
@UlrikeFischer and that other message should've read "unintuitive"...

@Skillmon I think how much black to mix in depends on the colour. Green needs more, blue less.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen for red and purple 80% colour, 20% blacks works well.

@Skillmon It's been a while since I played with these, but that seems to agree roughly with what I can remember.

@UlrikeFischer or take a look at xkcdcolors for some inspiration.

@Skillmon I think I will ask on the main site and look what happens (and you could look at the chessboard documentation and then decide if you really want me to decide about the colors ...)

3:24 PM
@DavidCarlisle -- Thanks. I didn't know this. The MAA transfer was completed just before I left AMS and I was never involved.

Ok, I took a look at xkcdcolors and came up with the following values for hyperref:
anchorcolor: black
citecolor: xkcdVomit
filecolor: xkcdLightishBlue
runcolor: filecolor
urlcolor: xkcdUglyPurple

3:40 PM
@UlrikeFischer I like RoyalBlue :)
@UlrikeFischer Of course, some might find value in preserving the distinction between various types of links (instead of using the same colour for all of them). The simplest solution that I would recommend is:
Check the current defaults: tex.stackexchange.com/a/50754/6302
These mostly use combinations of RGB values of 0 or 1
But just look at their names.
There's cyan, which is 0,1,1, but there's of course a nicer colour that we humans refer to as cyan
So pick cyan from the standard dvips colours: en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX/…
The same for all the rest: replace the pure (0,1,0)-green with another shade of green that looks reasonable on a white background

@Skillmon Any particular reason why when copying and pasting from the documentation
(expkv from git using atril or evince) I get (at least)
an expandable hkey i=hvalue i implementation
Jonathan P. Spratte ∗
-- v.

That's what I do when I make plots for publication. I look at a nice colour table like the one above and pick a pleasing set, then keep using those consistently. (And maybe consult my colourblind colleague before making the final decision :)

@Szabolcs mm. there are, unfortunately, many sorts of colourblindness (even the word colourblind is wrong, but that is another discussion). the red/green one is merely the most common variant.

3:56 PM
Luckily, unlike with distinguishing features of scientific figures, distinguishing different types of links is not that important to most people

@PabloGonzálezL the numbers are oldstyle numbers which might not be correctly supported by your viewer (they aren't for mine as well). Also evince somehow doesn't get the angle brackets correctly, which my viewer does.

@barbarabeeton My thinking was that the font issue can likely be sorted once we've agreed the article text (so know what coverage we need); I know that permissions can be interesting ...

an expandable ⟨key⟩=⟨value⟩ implementation
Jonathan P. Spratte∗
����-��-�� v�.�
@PabloGonzálezL ^^^ that's what zathura copies.

@UlrikeFischer all manuals should look like the subdued colour palette of the colortab manual
5

@Skillmon I think it's because of the font you use, I have no problem copying oldstyle numbers from other documentation :)

4:05 PM

@Skillmon Hehe...compiling with xelatex if I can copy the numbers :)

@PabloGonzálezL I can confirm, if compiled with XeLaTeX the numbers are copyable.
@PabloGonzálezL LuaLaTeX doesn't work, too.

@JosephWright -- Well, the usual procedure is that Karl produces a pdf file in the TUGboat style, then turns it over to me for editing. (Although I can edit from source, it's really easier formatted.) So having a problem with generating a pdf is a bottleneck. If you posted both source and a pdf, I would have read it right away.

@Skillmon Yes... I had also tried... it will be a kpfonts problem?

@PabloGonzálezL I guess so. A minimal document using \usepackage[T1]{fontenc}\usepackage[oldstylenums]{kpfonts} produces the same results.
@PabloGonzálezL the drawback will be that XeTeX doesn't support font expansion :(

4:24 PM
@Szabolcs @Skillmon Here is your chance: tex.stackexchange.com/q/525261/2388

@Skillmon Perhaps for a future update you might consider switching to libertine/libertunus

@Skillmon if you show a minimal example I can check. With luatex this is normally solvable.

@UlrikeFischer would be great.
\documentclass[]{article}

\usepackage[T1]{fontenc}
\usepackage[oldstylenums]{kpfonts}

\begin{document}
0123456789
\end{document}

@Skillmon well that is not a luatex document, so you would need a pdftex solution.
@Skillmon use this:
\documentclass[]{article}

\usepackage[T1]{fontenc}
\usepackage[oldstylenums]{kpfonts}
\input{glyphtounicode}
\pdfgentounicode=1
\begin{document}
0123456789
\end{document}

@UlrikeFischer you don't say :)
@UlrikeFischer does this have any impact on the typeset results?

4:33 PM
@Skillmon no, it only gives the glyphs sensible tounicode values in the pdf.

@UlrikeFischer ok. Thank you very much (honestly never heard of this before).

@Skillmon you can look in the glyphtounicode.tex. It only contains long list of glyphs. E.g. \pdfglyphtounicode{oneoldstyle}{0031}. And this tells the pdf viewer that the glyph oneoldstyle should be handled like a 1.

@UlrikeFischer oi why didn't Frank assign #236 to you:-)

@DavidCarlisle I'm on holiday ;-)

4:49 PM
@UlrikeFischer I'm at work. You have more time to fix stuff:)

@DavidCarlisle ;-). The main question is if one should try to avoid \openin or if one should ask that the engine is fixed.

@UlrikeFischer it would be enough to {} the filename in luatex wouldn't it? or at least that's what I seemed to think when I made the answer here, or we could switch over to the filenamesize test which might be better.... maybe I'll re-assign the issue to you and you can decide:-)

@DavidCarlisle yes I think a brace would work but it should there only for luatex. What is the filenamesize test?

5:08 PM
@UlrikeFischer yes {} has to be luatex only, some permutation of some of the letters of filenamesize would be \pdffilesize which can give an expandable iffileexists test which I think we have a ticket that suggests we could use it once it is in all the engines we support
@UlrikeFischer in which case openin behaviour would not matter so much

@DavidCarlisle That's Joseph's code, you could reassign him ;-)
Bad things happen if one read the documentation - update of hyperref failed as adobe blocked the manual.

@UlrikeFischer serves you right

@DavidCarlisle oh no

5:23 PM
This question about ucs and utf8x makes me wonder if we should make a community wiki question listing deprecated packages. As the OP says, there's lots of old information floating around on the web.

@AlanMunn yes it's tricky though, not all of the ones you might want to list have non active maintainers who would agree with the assessment.

@DavidCarlisle Yes, I can see that. There's a reason my "One page dictatorial guide to LaTeX packages" is so named. :)

@AlanMunn The team have some plans for a dictatorial guide for beginnings!

@JosephWright Yes, I think that sort of advice can be very helpful.

@DavidCarlisle and @AlanMunn -- The recent question about a 1985 dissertation prepared with AMSTeX persuades me to suggest that, while such a list of obsolete material seems highly useful, there should be some caveats about the possible continued usefulness of such material in resuscitating old documents.

5:36 PM
@barbarabeeton Hopefully you can read the PDFs I've sent ;)

@barbarabeeton Yes, of course, that's definitely an issue to consider as well. But it's quite clearly a special case. And with maybe a few exceptions I don't think a list of deprecated package would necessarily be suggesting their removal in old documents.
Although there are two cases to consider, the beginners, who read random advice on the web without having any sense of its current value, and the old-timers who keep repeating the stuff they've been doing since grad school. Unfortunately it's the latter that often produce the documentation that the former read.

@barbarabeeton @AlanMunn out of curiosity, have any of you had problems with DHL US before?

@AlanMunn -- Well, it should be easy enough to stress that the recommendations apply to new documents. (I guess I should be glad that my master's thesis was typed on an "executive" typewriter, not produced by a computer program. So I didn't get inoculated with subversive ideas.)

@PauloCereda I have very little experience with DHL. I've never used them myself and only occasionally have I received something delivered by them. They're not much used as a domestic carrier in the US I don't think.

@PauloCereda -- Don't remember sending or receiving anything via DHL, so my opinion on the subject is useless.

5:46 PM
@barbarabeeton Yes, exactly. :)

@AlanMunn @barbarabeeton thank you. I had serious problems with them recently. They managed to damage two packages from Amazon, in a row. Now Amazon decided to offer me free priority shipping, and DHL failed to honour the date. Amazon now offered me a full refund, and if the item, by the grace of God, happens to reach me somewhere in the near future, it's mine free of charge. :)

@barbarabeeton I wrote mine by hand!

@PauloCereda Sorry to hear that. Let's hope they do arrive. Although I suspect that it's hard for shipping companies to guarantee international deliveries because of customs issues. Don't forget the great Argentinian sock debacle of 2018. :)
@HaraldHanche-Olsen The whole thing, or just the math? Was it also written in Latin? :)

@PauloCereda that happened to me as well-problem with my ship[ing, so i got it for free :)

@AlanMunn ooh that was a good one. :)
@ThePuzzlerThree ooh :)
Also, hi mr. Waluigi :)

5:52 PM
@PauloCereda -- Not a good review of DHL! I hope you receive the replacement soon, in good condition. (That is a pretty favorable review of Amazon customer support.)

@PauloCereda waluigi deserves to be in smash

@AlanMunn The whole thing. Sorry to disappoint you: English.

@barbarabeeton it was an amusing chat transcript, yes. :)
@ThePuzzlerThree YES

@HaraldHanche-Olsen -- Was/is your handwriting legible?

@ThePuzzlerThree so far, only Byleth in the last DLC. :)

5:53 PM
@PauloCereda Smash fans:Add waluigi! Nintendo: Here have 5 more echo fighters

@barbarabeeton Only when I concentrate hard while writing, which I did of course. All in black ink with a fountain pen.

@ThePuzzlerThree The Cuphead skin was nice though. :)

@barbarabeeton My handwriting then was probably better than it is now. Curse of the computer age.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen -- I suppose black was required. (I used to turn in engineering homework in green ink -- fountain pen. These days I prefer purple.)

5:55 PM
@ThePuzzlerThree Ring Fit Adventure is sold out in Brazil... :(

@barbarabeeton I don't recall the exact requirement, but since it was to be photocopied, black was for sure a good idea.

@PauloCereda shame...its rlly fun

@ThePuzzlerThree cool, let's see if I can get in the near future. :) I have Luigi's Mansion 3 to play.

@PauloCereda luigis mansion is fun 2....have you beaten it?

@ThePuzzlerThree Haven't played in the full yet, just a few bits. :)

5:57 PM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen -- My thesis -- linguistics -- did have diagrams added in india ink, applied with a ruling pen. Experience as an engineering draftsman is "broadening".

@PauloCereda oh
@PauloCereda after beating it, im trying to %100

@ThePuzzlerThree I am playing Untitled Goose Game right now. :)
@ThePuzzlerThree ooh a challenge!

@PauloCereda i have that, but i dont play much

I played the original Luigi's Mansion on my Gamecube, it's a fantastic game too. :)

@PauloCereda On gringos and Brazilian music: Try some Anat Cohen and Trio Brasileiro. One quarter gringo, three quarters not?

5:59 PM
@PauloCereda im working on unlocking everything in mario kart 8 deluxe

@ThePuzzlerThree Awesome! I have that game too!
@HaraldHanche-Olsen Very nice, thank you! Do you like chorinho?

@PauloCereda do u have switch online?

@ThePuzzlerThree no, is it good?

@PauloCereda yes. its only $20 a year, so its also very cheap :P @PauloCereda how about a nintendo account @PauloCereda i could friend u! @ThePuzzlerThree ooh$20 is actually a bit too much, when converted to Brazilian Reais. :)

6:02 PM
@PauloCereda oh
83.74 !!!!!!!!
:O

@ThePuzzlerThree indeed!
@ThePuzzlerThree ooh online gameplay :)
I usually play offline, on the go. :)
Shaky buses and whatnot. :)

im usually at home with it

I even had a duck Pokémon in Pokémon Y. :)

dont want to bring it anywhere in case i break it
<!doctype html>
<body>
<h1>Yee</h1>
</body>
i have to go :(((((((((
cu
;-;

@PauloCereda Can't we just talk about cricket, which we all understand. :)

6:08 PM
@ThePuzzlerThree bye mr. Waluigi
@AlanMunn ooh more Pokémons
@AlanMunn @HaraldHanche-Olsen I really enjoy this group: youtube.com/watch?v=yzTgbdINsn0

mornings. I am getting an undefined control sequence with "l.3 \global\mtcsecondpartfalse" after installing texlive-lang-french (I think this is related but have no certainty). I'm not quite sure how to google for a solution, and I'm actually rather unsure what the problem is, I've removed all actual content in the tex file and the error persists, which makes me think it'd rather be a problem with how I've installed packages?

@FélixGagnon-Grenier Can you post the formatted error? I wonder if the line break is at \mtcsecondpartfalse or not

(/usr/share/texlive/texmf-dist/tex/generic/ifxetex/ifxetex.sty))
(/usr/share/texlive/texmf-dist/tex/latex/subfiles/subfiles.sty
(/usr/share/texlive/texmf-dist/tex/latex/tools/verbatim.sty))))
(./2020-01-20-13h00.aux
! Undefined control sequence.
l.3 \global\mtcsecondpartfalse

? X
No pages of output.
Transcript written on 2020-01-20-13h00.log.
I am a bit at a loss. I've removed the package I've just installed apt remove texlive-lang-french which I thought had provoked the error in the first place, but that does not change anything.

@FélixGagnon-Grenier delete 2020-01-20-13h00.aux and try again

lol, nice
it does, indeed, compile now

6:23 PM
@FélixGagnon-Grenier check the second run is still OK

it seems to be

Is there any chance to append to an already incoming upload or to revoke an upload on CTAN?

I've made small changes, and further pdflatex commands run to the end

@Skillmon Yes, email them

@Skillmon mail ctan@ctan.org and tell them to ignore the existing file and another one is on the way, if you are in time that's usually OK, if they have already installed they will probably want you to bump the version number
@FélixGagnon-Grenier have you removed minitoc in an edit?

6:26 PM
... lol that's uncanny
yes, yes I did.

@JosephWright thanks.

@FélixGagnon-Grenier I thought so:-)

@DavidCarlisle and thanks to you. Mail is sent, new upload in the making.

@DavidCarlisle I think I spotted carlisle at some point the the stack trace in one of the tries :P

@FélixGagnon-Grenier unrelated but generic/ifxetex/ifxetex.sty) implies you haven't updated your tex system recently.

6:29 PM
that is quite probable, I think I never did anything at all about updating it, tbh
I seem to recall using the pdflatex command that shipped with that vm, which I initiated... a while back

Good evening my friends in the Anglo-Saxon areas!

I have a question: What is a "draft dodger"?
I can't translate. :(

@cis US term from (mostly) vietnam war era, "the draft" was compulsory military service, and someone who avoided that could be called that (not most polite description)

@cis "Wehrdienstverweigerer" would be a German translation.

Draft evasion is any successful attempt to elude a government-imposed obligation to serve in the military forces of one's nation. Sometimes draft evasion involves refusing to comply with the military draft laws (formally known as conscription laws) of one's nation. Illegal draft evasion is said to have characterized every military conflict of the 20th and 21st centuries. Such evasion is generally considered to be a criminal offense, and laws against it go back thousands of years.There are many draft evasion practices. Those that manage to adhere to or circumvent the law, and those that do not...

@DavidCarlisle @DavidCarlisle @Skillmon Ah ok, I understand: someone who refuses to do his military service.

6:35 PM
@cis yes, but as @DavidCarlisle mentioned, the term is defaming (which I admit, I didn't know).

@PauloCereda I can't say I have been exposed much to it until recently, but yes … YES!

@cis Not refuses, exactly, more avoids it

@HaraldHanche-Olsen yay!

@cis like my brother, who wasn't drafted because he took dehydrating pills to loose enough weight...

@DavidCarlisle @Skillmon @JosephWright Ah ok.
In that case, my best regards to all members or service providers of the U.S.M.C.! ;)
..........
..............

:53314643 @Skillmon Sounds like an unhealthy method by your brother.

I did my military service, although I had 3 broken bones less than half a year earlier (collarbone, zygomatic bone, ribs). Didn't impress the pattern stake.

6:40 PM
@cis he was pretty close to being underweight anyways, so it wasn't that much of a big deal. My mother even helped him (she is a doctor)

@cis UK hasn't had compulsory military service since 1960

@DavidCarlisle Germany had it until half a year before my 18th birthday, iirc.

@DavidCarlisle So you were presumably never been in the Royal Navy. What a pity. :()

@PauloCereda ooh, nice – and a seven string guitar! don't see a lot of those.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen I have one! :)

6:47 PM
@PauloCereda ƣ

@HaraldHanche-Olsen ooh :)
@HaraldHanche-Olsen If you want to play choro, it's a must. :)

@HaraldHanche-Olsen It adds a nice bass line. The last string is usually tuned B or C, depending on the player and the song. :)

@PauloCereda Yeah, it figures. And it is very noticeable. (Gotta go now, be back in half an hour or so …)

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Quack! :) See ya!

6:55 PM
@DavidCarlisle -- I'm pretty sure it was also applied during WWII.

7:10 PM
@JosephWright I wish to register a complaint

@PauloCereda Yes sir?

@JosephWright it's about a parrot I've purchased not an hour ago in this very boutique.

@PauloCereda Yes

@JosephWright I was wondering if you had some cheese. :)

@PauloCereda :)

7:31 PM
ah gdi. it took me like three days to get that soup / sodown thing. it's horrible, omg.

@barbarabeeton yes possibly, but I don't remember that one:-)

I thought a "draft dodger" was simply a nickname for Donald Trump? \s

@PabloGonzálezL expkv incoming, now with copyable digits! (thanks @UlrikeFischer)

@Skillmon yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
@Skillmon congrats mr. rabbit

@PauloCereda :) I just hope there will not be a version 0.4 in less than a week.

7:46 PM
@Skillmon .31, .32, .33, ...

@PauloCereda And I'm back (home, from work). What I was going to say was, I listen mostly to jazz, but I find choro to be quite jazzy in some ways.

@DavidCarlisle there is a friendly footnote for you in the documentation.

@Skillmon copying the bad example of @PauloCereda ?

@HaraldHanche-Olsen cool. :) Take a look at the Choronas video, they are a fantastic group!
@DavidCarlisle oh no

@PauloCereda I looked at the beginning, saving the rest for when I have the time. Soon!

7:53 PM
@DavidCarlisle -- Here's what Wikipedia has to say about a song that was on a record from (I think) Folkways that I first heard in about 1960: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Day_Dodgers . It's sung to the tune of Lili Marlene. I can't find an audio version on the net; it's older than any of the recordings listed in the Wikipedia article.

@Skillmon Great...now I'll read the full documentation :)

> 1.3.2 Bugs
> Just like keyval, expkv is bug free. But if you find ---bugs---hidden features∗ you can tell
> me about them either via mail (see the first page) or directly on GitHub [...]

> ∗Thanks, David!
@DavidCarlisle ^^^^

8:08 PM
@Skillmon :-) much better than @PauloCereda's footnotes:-)

Hmmm, I am trying to begin an align* environment in the second horizsontal cell of a tabular environment, but it says that I have an overfull box, which I presume is because the align* environment tries to occupy the whole width without knowing about the tabular environment? Is there a way to get the align env to fit its parent cell somehow?

@FélixGagnon-Grenier you can't put vertical mode things in an l column (or an \mbox` etc) what the latexbook calls LR-mode, and everyone else calls a horizontal box.
use \$\begin{aligned}.... not align

hmmm yeah that works.
thanks :)

8:23 PM
@FélixGagnon-Grenier I see that's what is suggested in the link you added as well (you don't need \! any more)

I was currently trying for the second answer, as first tries with tabularx were unsucessful.
didn't immediately notice that they were doing both tabular and tabularx examples

@FélixGagnon-Grenier never use any of my packages, terribly unreliable source
4

:thinking_face:

8:52 PM
@DavidCarlisle ^^^ henry ford color scheme

@Szabolcs your wish is granted ^^^

@DavidCarlisle you should use this nice color scheme in colortbl too.

@UlrikeFischer I have a VW not a Ford

@DavidCarlisle and what is the VW colorscheme?

@UlrikeFischer dark grey:-)

9:03 PM
@DavidCarlisle black!60!white?

@UlrikeFischer \color[named]{ManganeseGrey}

hmmm, is it poor practice to override commands in our own set of files? I mean, I'M probably the only human who'll ever work in my math notes transcriptions, but I wonder if renewcommand-ing something like \det should be avoided?
\renewcommand{\det}[1] {
\left| \begin{matrix}
#1
\end{matrix} \right|
}

@DavidCarlisle you shouldn't buy cars without a cmyk or rgb color

it kinda changes what the command does drastically, but I will not be using the other definition

@FélixGagnon-Grenier lots of packages redefine things but do it with care, redefining \det is harmless enough, redefining \def (which I have seen a user do) is well less harmless.

9:13 PM
sounds good :)

@UlrikeFischer for only 10000 euros VW woudl let me have the pantone configuration and color profiles for the name.... But actually you can't see the original colour at the moment as it's more \color[named]{mud}
@UlrikeFischer hyperref.cfg gone from miktex:-)

@DavidCarlisle he is fast.

@UlrikeFischer it took me longer to write the mail than it took him to act on it and reply:-)

@UlrikeFischer -- Lovely! But it omits the Russian verse ...

9:36 PM
@barbarabeeton what is the russian verse?

@FélixGagnon-Grenier better to use \begin{vmatrix} than \left|\begin{matrix}

Heh, I was just about now realizing this, while rereading the doc :) overleaf.com/learn/latex/Matrices
I'll start to think you really are looking at my screen or something lol :P

Mar 26 '12 at 19:37, by David Carlisle
@Canageek moral of the story: never read the documentation, bad things happen

blushes

@UlrikeFischer -- At about 2:40 in youtube.com/watch?v=AjnOj9O16_I (It's on their old LP recording.)

9:45 PM
@barbarabeeton Ah nice.

9:57 PM
@UlrikeFischer I wonder if Henri's patch to luatex gets adopted for tl2020 and if so whether we should still add {} for luatex

@DavidCarlisle Fingers-crossed

@JosephWright if it does I'm thinking leave things as they are now, because we will probably want to switch to an expandable test in the end anyway.

@DavidCarlisle if it does I don't think that there is really a need for add a specific code path for luatex.

10:20 PM
@UlrikeFischer Wow, I really didn't expect such a positive response! Thanks so much for seriously considering the request. It's late at night here right now. I'll post some suggestions tomorrow if I get the time (unless someone else has already posted one that I like very much)

@PauloCereda -- You must know this already, but I can't resist reminding you. youtube.com/watch?v=Cr6luwrY2dw Enjoy! (Now it's time to go look for some dinner.

11:04 PM
@DavidCarlisle thanks, glad you like it.

11:26 PM
@DavidCarlisle I see we are going all formal on PRs!

11:45 PM
@JosephWright yes but I didn't accept the PR (too much churn over the oberdiek split:-)
@JosephWright we should probably consider merging everything back to master and checking the test suite there sooner rather than later if we are aiming for 20200202