12:31 AM
@AlanMunn good enough that most people don't think to add British patterns: \tenrm hon-our cen-tre

@AlanMunn -- I've just tried out several words, with these results: "hon-our", "cen-tre", and "favour" with the us patterns (using Knuthian TeX) and "hon-our", "centre", and "fa-vour" with the British patterns (using pdflatex with [british]{babel}). My copy of the mini-dictionary used to derive the British patterns is in an inaccessible box, so I can't check that, but I don't find "cen-tre" to be objectionable. But this does show that checking (and some in-document overrides) is a good idea.

@barbarabeeton you get some different results but (present company excepted) it's not as if people really expect any particular hyphenation, so long as it looks OK, I the US patterns match UK spelling well enough

12:50 AM
@DavidCarlisle -- I suspect that's true, but there are at least a few very odd items in the British dictionary. See my disquisition on "alternate" at tex.stackexchange.com/a/171155. I should really check on the progress of getting new British patterns based on an updated dictionary. Dominik was working on that.
@DavidCarlisle and @AlanMunn -- There's a new question about patterns on the main site (tex.stackexchange.com/q/524791); I'm about to answer it.

1:21 AM
@barbarabeeton alternate: the stress varies according to use (and the north american use is just weird) so altern-ate or al-ter-nate would look OK to me, according to the context.

@DavidCarlisle -- I'm used to two different pronunciations, one for adjective/noun, and the other for verb, but the stress is the same (first syllable), and so is the hyphenation (al-ter-nate). The only situation in which I can accept a hyphen after "n" is for the word al-tern-a-tive. British hyphenation is allegedly etymological, but (@AlanMunn, please correct me if I'm mistaken) "altern-ate" is etymologically nonsensical.
My conjecture for the presence of that entry is a frequent ploy among publishers of lists, to salt in occasional phony entries to trap re-publishers or users who have stolen the material without proper credit or payment.

the adjective is pronounced more or less as altern-at so hyphen after the n seems OK to me and al-tern-at-ive for the noun, which just leaves the verb form as al-ter-nate, but I don't think my reading would be disturbed by hyphenating the adjective as alter-nate either although I like that form less as I can't read alter-nate without it sounding like al-ter-nate

1:39 AM
@barbarabeeton Yes, this was the question that prompted mine here. But I agree with @DavidCarlisle, who really cares... :) If a copy editor complains about my hyphenation they're welcome to change it.
@barbarabeeton Yes altern- is definitely etymologically non-sensical to the extent that the word is "borrowed" from Latin. (Not really borrowing in the proper sense.)
@DavidCarlisle No, even with that pronunciation the 'n' should stay with the 'ate' since that's how it is in the pronunciation too.

@DavidCarlisle -- I've honestly never heard "alternate" pronounced with the stress on the second syllable. Can you point me to any recording that uses the word in context? Granted, the person asking the question I cited is located in Germany, so is probably not a native speaker of any dialect of English, so can't be taken as an authority.

@AlanMunn perhaps, but I don't care:-)
@barbarabeeton if I google for it then google shows a box with two definitions plus the north american usage as a noun the actual sound will depend on your browser but google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=alternate the top one is clearly three sylables al-ter-nate but the second is almost two altern-at being the closest ascii rendition that I could show to highlight the difference. while I agree the etymology is dodgy I think alter-nate suggests the first form

2:07 AM
@DavidCarlisle (and @AlanMunn) -- I've found a site with UK/US pronunciations: dictionary.cambridge.org/us/pronunciation/english/alternate ; the UK pronunciation of the adjective is quite different from all the others, and indeed, it has the stress on the second syllable, so "al-tern-ate" would be appropriate. That's a new one for me. So I concede.

7 hours later…
8:40 AM
@UlrikeFischer in the current version, no... We can add this feature...

1 hour later…
9:58 AM
quack

@egreg No idea why I didn't see your answer to tex.stackexchange.com/q/524796 before I posted mine. Sorry about that, didn't mean to steal the green tick. I know how much they mean to you. ;-)

10:52 AM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen I haven't even seen the question yet but already you made my day!
@barbarabeeton there is hope we might yet get you to speak English:-)

11:30 AM
\$ pdfinfo zz4.pdf
Title:
Subject:
Keywords:
Author:
Creator:        LaTeX with hyperref
Producer:       pdfTeX-1.40.21
CreationDate:   Sun Jan 19 11:29:43 2020 GMT
ModDate:        Sun Jan 19 11:29:43 2020 GMT
Tagged:         no
UserProperties: no
Suspects:       no
Form:           none
JavaScript:     no
Pages:          1
Encrypted:      no
Page size:      612 x 792 pts (letter)
Page rot:       0
File size:      12126 bytes
Optimized:      no
PDF version:    2.0
@UlrikeFischer @JosephWright ^^

1 hour later…
12:34 PM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen don’t worry

12:52 PM
@DavidCarlisle nice ; -)

@UlrikeFischer but I can't get latex-dvips-ps2pdf to work without specifying 2.0 on the commandline for ps2pdf I thought <</CompatibilityLevel 2.0>> setdistillerparams would work but it's accepted by gs but seems to be ignored (and the helpful manual for setdistillerparams says "PostScript language programs that use these operators must not assume that any particular key is present in the dictionary returned by currentdistillerparams, or that setdistillerparams has any particular side effects."

@DavidCarlisle I didn't know that PDF files suffered page rot (though this one didn't).

@HaraldHanche-Olsen my pages don't rot

@DavidCarlisle And no suspects, either. But is the log clean?

@HaraldHanche-Olsen clean and very modern: This is pdfTeX, Version 3.14159265-2.6-1.40.21 (TeX Live 2020) (preloaded format=pdflatex 2020.1.19) 19 JAN 2020 11:29
@UlrikeFischer can I blame you? ..texmf-dist/tex/luatex/luaotfload/luaotfload-features.lua:252: bad argument #1 to 'stringgsub' (string expected, got boolean).

1:13 PM
@DavidCarlisle perhaps the command line option used by ps2pdf wins. Did you try to call gs directly?
@DavidCarlisle well I'm sitting in ski hut and can't test now, but I suspect you can blame Will. Check my issue at fontspec.

@UlrikeFischer OK thanks, have fun on the slopes.

@DavidCarlisle Schuss!

@UlrikeFischer I tried calling the underlying ps2pdfwr which doesn't set -dCompatiibilityLevel but just got 1.7 then

1 hour later…
2:46 PM
5
@PauloCereda ^^^

3:02 PM
@Skillmon oooooh

3:38 PM
If I don't want a specific section of a \longtable to split across pages, is there a good way to achieve this?

@FaheemMitha use \\* and don't use \hline
@FaheemMitha or often simpler just put \\ \newpage before that section so it breaks where you want it to break

@DavidCarlisle Oh. Is this a longtable feature?
@DavidCarlisle Sure, except that section might shift later, relative to the pagebreaking.

@FaheemMitha \\* is general latex syntax for a no page break linebreak, and longtable tries to honour it as far as possible

@DavidCarlisle Oh. Thanks.

@FaheemMitha well that's life, but it's easier to move a single \newpage than re-adjust a whole sequence of \\* to \\

3:45 PM
@DavidCarlisle I think \\* will work quite well in my specific (slightly non-standard) use case, actually.

@DavidCarlisle -- Oh, I doubt it. But that means I'll have to work hard on something else. I used to be pretty good at Ig-pay Atin-lay.

@barbarabeeton I take it that's Pig Latin?

@FaheemMitha -- Exactly.

@barbarabeeton One of the fun things about life is that there are so many things to do.
Though, of course, sometimes it can be less than fun.

@DavidCarlisle Problem solved.

3:51 PM
@barbarabeeton have a nice day (as they don't say here:-)
@yo' avoided at least:-) aim for 55555

@DavidCarlisle I'd still go with solved :)

@PauloCereda -- Interesting. Not a lot different from some other mono fonts, but nicely done. I expect someone will create a TeX interface soon.

@barbarabeeton me too :)

@yo' next you are going to tell me that helping users, or earning stack exchange revenue with increased user numbers are more important than hitting palindromic rep values.
@barbarabeeton luatex or xetex don't need a tex interface, you can just use the font

@DavidCarlisle -- True, but there are some distinctive character shapes that I think might deserve some special treatment, or at least recognition.

3:57 PM
@DavidCarlisle please, don't take it wrong, but of these things, "helping users" is the only important one.
palindromic rep is an added bonus. The rest is useless obviously

@DavidCarlisle -- So how do I arrange for either +2 or -3? (Or, reasonably soon, +3 or -2?)

(especially with the recent movements)

@barbarabeeton get enough downvotes on answers (-2) to get you in the right sequence so +10 and +15 will hit the target value.
@UlrikeFischer does miktex have texlive/2019/texmf-dist/tex/latex/latexconfig/hyperref.cfg ?

@DavidCarlisle yes but in a slightly different location: MiKTeX/tex/latex/00miktex/hyperref.cfg. Why?

@UlrikeFischer because it seems less than clear to have hyperref set a default that is not used and then a system wide .cfg sets it to something else and if the user actually wants to use a .cfg to have a local configuration they ave to fight with texinputs search order to pick up the right one.

4:02 PM
@DavidCarlisle -- But I really don't like to downvote, unless something is really egregious, rather than simply ignorant. Mostly, people on this site simply lack the proper information or training, as opposed to being hostile or vindictive.

@barbarabeeton oh you don't have to downvote, to make sure that I am on track for 555,555 all I have to do is mention emacs in answers to vim questions and someone will give the needed -2

@barbarabeeton really egreg-ious?

@HaraldHanche-Olsen -- +1!

@DavidCarlisle You mean the question on the main site? But setting texinputs to point to a part of a texmf sounds quite wrong anyway.

@UlrikeFischer yes sure but that reminded me about that system wide cfg file, if it really needs to be there it should be distributed as part of hyperref, but also if it is always there no point in hyperref doing an \IfFileExists test to look for it, it may as well simply input it always.

4:07 PM
@DavidCarlisle -- I guess I don't look for controversy either. Indeed, the last question I answered was soon closed for being opinion-based, but it's been nominated for reopening since a factual answer exists.

@barbarabeeton you see you are valuing the content of the posts more than the numeric games to be played with voting, this is setting a terrible precedent:-)

This is not a criticism (more a factuous statement): Beamer themes are so complex and difficult to set up!

@DavidCarlisle We could set hdvips instead of hypertex as the default driver in hyperref - it is so long the de facto default driver that probably nobody will notice. Then miktex and texlive could remove the cfg.

@UlrikeFischer yes that's what I was thinking, but wanted to check that miktex is currently effectively defaulting to dvips as well

@DavidCarlisle I checked the content: the two versions in texlive and miktex are identical.

4:13 PM
@UlrikeFischer thanks

@DavidCarlisle will we get test failures if hyperref.cfg is not longer input?
@PauloCereda I think it would be good, or even better if it would overwrite existing files only if explicitly asked, e.g. with --overwrite.

4:33 PM
@UlrikeFischer I don't know, but I'll find out...

@DavidCarlisle ;-). I think it would be worth it.
@AlexG do you know if one can set the pdf version in postscript? We were wondering how to do it in the hdvips driver.

@UlrikeFischer hmm <</CompatibilityLevel 2.0>> setdistillerparams doesn't work with distiller either, perhaps I'm putting it in the wrong place rather than it being a gs issue

4:52 PM
@UlrikeFischer but I do get 87-pdf2 (3/8) --> failed now I've got a texlive 2020 pdftex :-)

@DavidCarlisle ouch. But as there is no travis check it shouldn't matter - I can run tests with a new pdftex too.

@UlrikeFischer that was expected as I checked in the tlg with the pdf version not set, it would matter if we built with l3build ctan as it would refuse, but mktan script doesn't care what rubbish it zips up, so that's Ok.
@UlrikeFischer that is the only failure (after I changed the default in hyperref.dtx and deleted the texlive cfg)

@DavidCarlisle good.

5:23 PM
@DavidCarlisle https://www.adobe.com/content/dam/acom/en/devnet/acrobat/pdfs/pdf_creation_settings.pdf says "a number of settings cannot be modified during a job using setdistillerparams. Their
values are always taken from the settings file or the default values:" and CompatibilityLevel is in the list.

@UlrikeFischer there are too many separate documents:-) That's fairly rubbish so the only way to make it work would be to do as xetex does and run dvips and ps2pdf via shell escape and control the commandline :(

@DavidCarlisle looks so, unless gs would honour such a "settings file" too, then we could perhaps write it ...

@UlrikeFischer Sorry, I couldn't find something suitable among the list of additional GS operators.

5:47 PM
@AlexG pity. Looks as if there is nothing sensible.

@UlrikeFischer I suppose we could put in a gs feature request....

@DavidCarlisle could be worth it. I have no idea if the "real" pdf 2.0 stuff can be done with dvips, but it would make tests easier (and perhaps also the ps2pdf scripts).

6:26 PM
@MarcelKrüger did anything change with the Noto Color Emoji?

@JosephWright how do I setup l3build such that the tds will contain files in tex/generic and files in tex/latex?

6:43 PM
@Skillmon tdslocations, look at the one in ho-tex/oberdiek

@DavidCarlisle thanks, the documentation entry of l3build ctan suggested that this wasn't possible, so I thought I'd better ask :)

@Skillmon it's a newish feature, added so i could build the oberdiek bundle with l3build:-)
@Skillmon the one there is a longer list than needed as I simply took the existing manifest of all files. Actually you only need list the ones that go to a non-standard place, so if you are defaulting to tex/latex... you could just list the ones that go to generic

@DavidCarlisle so this is like an exclusion-list?

@Skillmon not really exclusion, but everything build first in a directory and if the filename matches the basename of an entry in tdslocations it is copied there, otherwise it does whetever it would have done using its default heuristics

@DavidCarlisle I've yet to fully understand how to create the bulid.lua files of a project. Maybe I'll stick to GNU make in the end, that one I at least partly understand.
@DavidCarlisle why did you include all the dtx files into the installfiles variable, I thought that one should only hold the files going into tex/.

6:51 PM
@Skillmon l3build is usefully cross platform, and it handles tex-specific testing which would need extra support if using make. (we used to use make for latex2e tests but they didn't work on windows and needed a lot of custom sed and perl to handle the testing, but with l3build it's a lot more streamlined

@DavidCarlisle I have tests for one of my packages, which work using a zsh script...

@Skillmon actually it may not be needed, I had several attempts to force the existing (bizarre) oberdiek layout to get built using l3build before we gave up and added tdslocations, currently it works and since the bundle is scary enough to build anyway I'm happy to leave it as it is for now:-)
@Skillmon we need to edit and normalize and compare log files, do you do that in pure shell scripting without using perl?

@Skillmon This is exactly the sentence from your doc I referred to. I was just curious, and for the case you would change your mind I wanted to point you to this other serious bug of keycommand. Your assumptions about it are informing, thx. (BTW I could yesterday not open the chat, I had in general problems with the whole stackexchange site.)
Ehm, “other bug“ in sense of different from the keyval bug feature.

7:15 PM
@DavidCarlisle no, the tests of that can all be done by comparing the outcome with \ifx, so the majority of the test-part is done in LaTeX and the script only has to grep a few things.
Oh, cool, doesn't work (not even finding the incomplete build.lua:
archie@thinkarch ~/Code/LaTeX/Own_packages/expkv (git)-[master] % l3build doc
Running l3build with target "doc" for module .git
Error: Cannot find configuration build.lua

@Skillmon ah OK that's Ok for test that are expected, but we have a lot with \showbox output that caught many unexepected changes as for example luatex changed
@Skillmon module .git ?

7:39 PM
@DavidCarlisle I just run l3build doc in the main folder of the project (in which there is a build.lua) and for reasons I don't understand it did something strange.

:532793 Nothing except the commandline option that you know already, @UlrikeFischer

@DavidCarlisle Hi, query, using l3build doc in hyperref does not generate manual.pdf... it is only available using mkctan?

@Skillmon Content of build.lua?

7:57 PM
-- Build script for expkv

installfiles={"expkv.sty", "expkv.tex"}
typesetfiles={"*.dtx"}

-- make sure that expkv.tex ends up in the generic path
tdslocations={
"tex/generic/expkv/expkv.tex",
}
@JosephWright for now just that ^^^

@Skillmon I think you should at least have also a module setting: module = "expkv"

@PabloGonzálezL you can only use l3build check in hyperref at the moment, use mkctan for the actual build

@Skillmon Set module

@DavidCarlisle Okay, I just wanted to generate the documentation :)

@JosephWright I was faster ;-)

8:08 PM
@PabloGonzálezL mkctan doesn't run the test suite so it's just doing the doc then zipping it up

@DavidCarlisle Thank you!!

@JosephWright @UlrikeFischer @AlexG I posted a feature request to gs-devel list (doesn't show in the archives yet, probably held up for moderation as I'm not a subscriber)

@DavidCarlisle Details?

@DavidCarlisle Good!

@JosephWright asking if it is possible (or if not could they add) to put anything in a ps file so that ps2pdf generates the specified PDF version so \usepackage[pdfversion=2.0]{hyperref} can work for dvips as it does for pdftex, currently requires you to call ps2pdf with a commandline option to set the version

8:15 PM
@DavidCarlisle Ah, right, got it

@JosephWright meanwhile you'll be pleased to know I rebuilt all the texlive sources this morning so I now have a pdftex with \pdfmajorversion (again, I think I built it at the time but didn't hang on to that version)

@UlrikeFischer yep, that was the issue, thanks! (also @JosephWright)

@DavidCarlisle you should use windows and simply copy the file Akira builds.

@UlrikeFischer :)

@UlrikeFischer where's the fun in that

8:18 PM
@DavidCarlisle Sounds cool

@DavidCarlisle we are much too serious for fun - I should create a new bear shirt with "I built texlive from the sources"

@JosephWright actually I suppose I should copy the luahbtex into my texlive2019 bin directory as well and check the 2e test suite...
@UlrikeFischer it's really not very difficult, it involves typing ./Build --without-x

@DavidCarlisle would look nice on a t-shirt too.
@DavidCarlisle what does this involve? I can easily run a test suite with other binaries if needed.

@UlrikeFischer better to just have ./Build as the --without-x bit is just because I can't be bothered to install exactly the right X Windows SDK, as it is only used for xfvi and the metafont preview window.

@DavidCarlisle but --without-x looks so mysterious.

8:23 PM
@UlrikeFischer just run l3build check in the top level of latex2e with the luahbtex.exe being in the path being the new one.
@UlrikeFischer to you perhaps but people in the know would just say "why didn't you install the right dependencies"

@UlrikeFischer next update, then. :)

@DavidCarlisle I don't think curiousdanni is a TeX user. Their comment came from the linguistics site.

@Skillmon I think this works, you shouldn't get complicated with the TDS structure, just put a note in README.md and make the comment about it when uploading the package to CTAN. I have excluded .tex, .sty because they are generated from the .dtx file (and the CTAN maintainers don't like it, check the pkgcheck utility)

@AlanMunn i checked first, member here for 4 years:-)

@Skillmon -- Build script for expkv
pkgversion = "0.3"
pkgdate = "2020-01-19"

module = "expkv"
ctanpkg = "expkv"
ctanzip = ctanpkg.."-"..pkgversion

docfiles = {"expkv.pdf"}
textfiles= {"README.md"}

sourcefiles = {"expkv.dtx"}
typesetfiles = { "expkv.dtx" }

-- Compile documentation with lualatex
typesetexe = "lualatex"
packtdszip = false

typesetruns = 3

8:32 PM
@DavidCarlisle Ah, ok then. I only know them from EL&U.

@DavidCarlisle is running ...

@UlrikeFischer The bitmaps in luaotfload's tests do no longer correspond to the upstream font, but nothing significant (aka. no font metrics) changed as far as I can remember. Why?

@MarcelKrüger I got lots of errors. The testsuite ran, but as soon as I tried to call the font in some external document it failed. After deleting the cache and copying the font to a local texmf it worked again, but the font doesn't appear in the logs, and windows claims it can't install the ttf.

@MarcelKrüger I'm just running the latex2e test suite with a new luatex and get a failure here tlb-callbacks-001 (40/380) and tlb-extraprimitives-001 (47/380). Do you know why? (I'm in the develop branch)

@JosephWright /grabs popcorn

@PauloCereda It's more insightful than other recent posts

@JosephWright ooh so more popcorn :)

@UlrikeFischer tlb-callbacks is mostly because of the new callbacks glyph_info (introduced in reation to harfbuzz) and the replacement of page_objnum_provider by page_order_index (That's stability in the LuaTeX world...) Also there is a new provide_charproc_data callback which will probably allow for creative use of Type3 fonts at soem points, but currently it isn't actually implemented. The extraprimitives failure are because of new primitives eTeXglueshrinkorder and eTeXstretchorder.

9:02 PM
@MarcelKrüger so more or less harmless. I think we should try to release a new luaotfload. I can try to expand the docu but I would need a few words about the multiscript ...

@UlrikeFischer Right, harmless. I agree, but I currently have a lot on my plate and don't find the time to work on the documentation. But I'll try to write down the general idea this evening.

Good evening! I have tried circuitikz with my TeXLive2019 up-to-date version (althoug I still have  LaTeX2e <2020-02-01> pre-release-2 (development 2019-12-1 branch) when calling pdflatex-dev and I have an error on siunitix:
! Undefined control sequence.
<argument> l__siunitx_\str_foldcase:n
{Ohm}_\mode_if_math:TF {math}{text}_tl
l.2 ...(0,0) to[R=2<\ohm>, i=?, v=84<\volt>] (2,0)
--

@MarcelKrüger I can do the documentation (and the upload), it would be enough if I have a few more examples to understand the ideas. Simply send me some test files or so.

@UlrikeFischer OK, I'll do that. Thank you!

@Rmano Your format needs to be rebuilt, assuming you have an up-to-date l3kernel

9:08 PM
Ok, I'll try. I suppose that tlmgr update --all did everything...

@Rmano Then try fmtutil-sys --all

@JosephWright Ok, thank you, working now.

9:38 PM
quack

9:58 PM
@PauloCereda boo!

@yo' ooh <3

@JosephWright Please, do you remember how do you set subenum numbering to \alph in beamer?

@yo' ER, not without checking
@yo' Watching snooker?

@JosephWright found it, it's simple quite
yep, watching

@yo' Tight
@yo' Favouring anyone?

10:01 PM
@JosephWright yeah
@JosephWright Ali for us here, quite for sure
it's a good rollercoaster though
someone's resetting my \theenumii :(
Ah \AtBeginDocument from beamerbasecompatibility.sty
no, not that, still something else

11:01 PM
Have a rushed question that I'm embarassed to ask, but I'm on a tight deadline: Using the Caption package how do I set the figure numbering to move from 1,2,3 to S1,S2,S3, etc for the whole document?
I mean, it doesn't have to use caption, but would hopefully not break it, though if it does, I can probably just deep six caption now that I think about it
Working is better then pretty right now

@Canageek \renewcommand*\thefigure{S\value{figure}} ...

@JosephWright THAT broke something, checking if turning Caption off fixes it
Nope still missing a number
!Missing Number, treated as zero. Any ideas or do I need to take the time to make a MWE or turn off packages one by one?

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{caption}
\renewcommand{\thefigure}{S\arabic{figure}}
\begin{document}
\section{Foo}
\begin{figure}
\caption{Some stuff}
\label{foo}
\end{figure}

\section{Baz}
Figure~\ref{foo}

\end{document}
@Canageek ^^^
Works For ME

@JosephWright That ALSO works for me, you chagned the line from \value to \arabic

@Canageek Yeah, sorry, was thinking of \arabic

11:13 PM
No worries, works fine now and I didn't have to spend ages looking into it when behind time

11:28 PM
is there a way of saying that tables and figures can't move past one another?
It keeps moving table S1 above figure S3, and I want them in a specific order
Don't care exactly ware as long as they don't cross
Nevermind, got it, just had to mix in a few newpages and clearpages at just the right places

@Canageek \clearpages will lead to trouble. Try this: tex.stackexchange.com/q/279/2693

11:44 PM
@UlrikeFischer those two almost always fail after a luatex update, if anything is added or removed at the primitive level. Often it's only way we find out about undocumented changes:-)
@Canageek declare them to be the same float type