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Bob
Bob
12:04 AM
@DavidCarlisle Oh I see, thanks again!
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@JosephWright @UlrikeFischer if I export TZ=CET before running l3build the luatex passes, so probably l3build should set GMT if running with a fixed epoch (I still get the xetx subset formt diffs)
 
 
2 hours later…
Will Robertson
Will Robertson
2:08 AM
@UlrikeFischer — regarding Harfbuzz, er, right, I've just added it back in as a synonym for HarfBuzz :) Using case fold for option handling would be good, although I might look to see whether it should be an addition to l3keys instead. WDYT?
 
barbara beeton
barbara beeton
2:48 AM
@yo' -- Our car was almost like that when we went out to dinner, except that it was really ice when we went to scrape it off the windshield. Winter is coming.
 
 
1 hour later…
Henri Menke
Henri Menke
4:08 AM
@barbarabeeton Hi Barbara.
@barbarabeeton You might know this.
 
barbara beeton
barbara beeton
@HenriMenke -- Know what?
 
Henri Menke
Henri Menke
@barbarabeeton Why is there a space between a \mathop{} and a \mathinner{}?
@barbarabeeton E.g. \sin\left(\alpha\right).
@barbarabeeton There will be a space between the mathop atom and the implicit mathinner atom of \left...\right.
@barbarabeeton Do you know why Don chose TeX to insert a thin space there?
 
barbara beeton
barbara beeton
@HenriMenke -- What's another example of mathinner? I think that \left...\right isn't the best illustration. For \sin x, "x" is mathord, so not relevant.
(I'm at a disadvantage at the moment -- all my books are in boxes, so I have few resources to check.)
 
Henri Menke
Henri Menke
@barbarabeeton The only other thing that's mathinner by default are the dots, i.e. \def\ldots{\mathinner{\ldotp\ldotp\ldotp}} etc.
@barbarabeeton The question could also be paraphrased as: Why is \left...\right implicitly converted into mathinner?
@barbarabeeton Related:
6
Q: Which constructs in TeX/LaTeX and their packages have classification \mathinner?

Lover of StructureWhich constructs in (La)TeX and (La)TeX packages have classification \mathinner? The TeXbook mentions: fractions \left...\right constructions \ldots, \cdots, \ddots Which fractions - all? Do other frequently used packages (e.g. AMS-LaTeX) define other constructs (e.g. I'm assuming all types ...

math-mode
@barbarabeeton I think I'll ask a new question.
 
barbara beeton
barbara beeton
4:23 AM
@HenriMenke -- I'm not sure I'm going to be able to answer this. plain.tex defines only the dots as inner. The answer is going to have to come out of the TeXbook, and all I can get at easily is the file (via ctan).
 
Henri Menke
Henri Menke
@barbarabeeton You can also use the illegal copy from ctex.org
@barbarabeeton I just realized why there is space between op and inner. Take for example \sin{2 \over 3} (fractions are also inner).
 
barbara beeton
barbara beeton
@HenriMenke -- Yes, fractions definitely need a space after \sin. The situation with \left...\right isn't so clear, but I think it's assumed that a little extra space between \sin and an oversize open parenthesis is advisable. What's the space between mathop and mathopen? (That would be the \big[g]l situation.)
 
Henri Menke
Henri Menke
@barbarabeeton The space between op and open is 0, i.e. no space, compared to op and inner which is 1, i.e. thin space. Therefore \sin\left({1 \over 2}\right) will have different spacing than \sin\biggl({1 \over 2}\biggr).
 
barbara beeton
barbara beeton
4:41 AM
@HenriMenke -- Okay, I'm looking at the illegal ctex copy. (I don't know how many times I've asked for this to be taken down! It's the original version, not the current one.) There's an extended discussion about this, but it only says what does happen, not why. A question for DEK if you're ever at an "all questions answered" session.
 
Henri Menke
Henri Menke
@barbarabeeton I see that for large parentheses the effect is actually relatively small, but becomes more pronounced with square brackets or vertical bars. The main complication arises when people use \left...\right for each and every delimiter in their document.
@barbarabeeton When is the next one? I should write down all these questions, because when I met him at TUG2019 I didn't ask him anything.
 
barbara beeton
barbara beeton
@HenriMenke -- The use of \left...\right everywhere is just plain wrong. I'm sure that's stated clearly somewhere in the TeXbook. (But I'm not going to look it up.) People are just lazy, or, being a bit more generous, poorly taught.
@HenriMenke -- Unpredictable. If some university invites him to get another honorary degree and he accepts, that is usually accompanied by a q&a session. But I don't always learn about such events beforehand. I think he posts them on his web page at cs.stanford.edu, but perhaps without a lot of lead time.
 
Henri Menke
Henri Menke
@barbarabeeton When I write a letter to his office, do you reckon he'll read it or maybe even answer it?
 
barbara beeton
barbara beeton
4:57 AM
@HenriMenke -- It will be put into a pile for later attention. I can't predict when "later" might be. On the other hand, this seems worth trying to get an answer, so send email to Karl as if it were a bug; as subject, put "not a bugf, but explanation wanted". State the situation as succinctly as possible, with reference to mentions in the TeXbook (I think it's chapter 10), and say I suggested that you do it. That way, Karl's wrath will be directed at me, not at you.
The "reviewers" know a lot more about this than most mere mortals, and maybe they have some inkling of what was in Don's mind when he decided this. (I know who the "reviewers" are, but won't tell; Don has given them his blessing to do the preliminary checking before anything is sent to him.) The end of 2020 is the next scheduled DEK review of the collection.
 
Henri Menke
Henri Menke
@barbarabeeton Okay, thanks for the advice. I will write Karl, maybe he knows the answer.
 
Henri Menke
Henri Menke
5:39 AM
@barbarabeeton What's your email address? I want to CC you.
 
 
2 hours later…
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
7:33 AM
@yo' ooh
@DavidCarlisle oh no
@HaraldHanche-Olsen yes I also gave it a try! Nice software indeed!
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
8:10 AM
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
8:22 AM
@DavidCarlisle ^^
He left the teabag in... OH MY
Also, he thinks the most surprising thing about being PM is getting a curry delivered.
 
Skillmon
Skillmon
8:44 AM
@PauloCereda now I spent more time this morning on useless British politics than on my Master's thesis, thanks :(
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@Skillmon oh no
@Skillmon You can do it, mr. rabbit! <3
 
Harald Hanche-Olsen
Harald Hanche-Olsen
@Skillmon the teabag comment wasn't sufficient warning to stay away?
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@HaraldHanche-Olsen it's worse: he adds milk only 16 seconds after putting hot water in, and he left the teabag while pouring milk.
@JosephWright had tea during TUG 2018. :)
Also, he's very tall.
 
Harald Hanche-Olsen
Harald Hanche-Olsen
@PauloCereda όόη
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@HaraldHanche-Olsen ooh
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
8:54 AM
@DavidCarlisle I ran a few tests with a hallo world. The string changes arbitrarly, but if I set set SOURCE_DATE_EPOCH=20161010 and then do xelatex --output-driver="xdvipdfmx -vv" the end shows always CQPECL+LMRoman10-Regular. So it is clearly related to the epoch setting. I need to check how l3build sets it.
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@UlrikeFischer can you set the TZ environment variable to GMT and then try with the epoch settings?
@UlrikeFischer the epoch settings are enabled, and I always get the same string, just not the string you get I get the same as you if I set TZ=CET
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@DavidCarlisle I'm just trying to find out if I can do this locally on a cmd line.
@DavidCarlisle I found tzutil, and changed the time zone (and my clock changed) but the string stays put. If I use a bash, how do I set the epoch env there?
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
9:20 AM
@DavidCarlisle if is not the epoch, it is perhaps the font(name). The message mentioned that the "BaseFont" is involved. Perhaps you are case sensitive or something like that. I think we need @JosephWright, he is on windows but in your time zone.
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@UlrikeFischer What if you just precede the command with the env var?
SOURCE_DATE_EPOCH=20161010 xelatex...
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@PauloCereda I used export VAR=, seems to work.
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@UlrikeFischer cool! :) Preceding vars also works, just in case. :)
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@PauloCereda what do you get, if you set SOURCE_DATE_EPOCH=20161010 and then run a hello-world with xelatex --output-driver="xdvipdfmx -vv" file. How is the string before the font name at the end?
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@UlrikeFischer Let me try. A simple document?
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
9:28 AM
@PauloCereda yes, simply article and e.g. "hello"
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@UlrikeFischer sorry it was late last night the time zone did not affect xetex/dvipdfmx it made the luatex one pass (that has a datetime in a string)
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
[paulo@cambridge ~] $ SOURCE_DATE_EPOCH=20161010 xelatex --output-driver="xdvipdfmx -vv" hello.tex
This is XeTeX, Version 3.14159265-2.6-0.999991 (TeX Live 2019) (preloaded format=xelatex)
 restricted \write18 enabled.
entering extended mode
(./hello.tex
LaTeX2e <2019-10-01> patch level 3
(/usr/local/texlive/2019/texmf-dist/tex/latex/base/article.cls
Document Class: article 2019/10/25 v1.4k Standard LaTeX document class
(/usr/local/texlive/2019/texmf-dist/tex/latex/base/size10.clo))
No file hello.aux.
LaTeX Font Info:    Checking defaults for OML/cmm/m/it on input line 3.
LaTeX Font Info:    ... okay on input line 3.
LaTeX Font Info:    Checking defaults for T1/cmr/m/n on input line 3.
LaTeX Font Info:    ... okay on input line 3.
LaTeX Font Info:    Checking defaults for OT1/cmr/m/n on input line 3.
LaTeX Font Info:    ... okay on input line 3.
LaTeX Font Info:    Checking defaults for OMS/cmsy/m/n on input line 3.
LaTeX Font Info:    ... okay on input line 3.
LaTeX Font Info:    Checking defaults for TU/lmr/m/n on input line 3.
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@PauloCereda the important part are the messages from xdvipdfmx, they should come just before the "X bytes writen"- sorry just saw they are there
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@UlrikeFischer Ah
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@DavidCarlisle yes, I got this. Do you get like Paulo "MOOTDW+LMRoman10-Regular" with SOURCE_DATE_EPOCH=20161010?
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
9:50 AM
 
mickep
mickep
@PauloCereda Ducks are human!!! Almost.
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@mickep ooh
 
mickep
mickep
@PauloCereda Looks like we follow the same accounts on twitter. Or at least, the intersection is non-empty.
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@mickep ooh not a disjoint set
We ducks are very good at naïve set theory
<3
Zermelo–Fraenkel set theory is mean
 
mickep
mickep
@PauloCereda You like the Peano–Duck axioms better?
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
9:58 AM
@mickep ooh
@mickep When I hear Dedekind, I cannot help but think of Kirby's King Dedede en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Dedede
 
mickep
mickep
@PauloCereda Hahaha, from now on, I will too. Thanks! :)
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@mickep ooh penguins
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@UlrikeFischer no: RRXETV+LMRoman10-Regular-Identity-H CID Type 0C Identity-H yes yes yes 5 0 (@PauloCereda) 
$ xdvipdfmx --version
This is xdvipdfmx Version 20190503 by the DVIPDFMx project team,
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@DavidCarlisle ;-(. I could ask on the dvipdfmx mailing list how this string is computed or someone will have to look in the sources ...
@DavidCarlisle but your font looks different, I get at the end 
otf_cmap>> Creating ToUnicode CMap for "c:/texlive/2019/texmf-dist/fonts/opentype/public/lm/lmroman10-regular.otf"...
(CID:c:/texlive/2019/texmf-dist/fonts/opentype/public/lm/lmroman10-regular.otf[CQPECL+LMRoman10-Regular][CIDFontType0][6 glyphs][943 bytes])
3202 bytes written
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
10:16 AM
@DavidCarlisle oh
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
On other news: 
C:\Users\Nililand-Surface\Documents\tests>lualatex-dev test-utf8
This is LuaHBTeX, Version 1.11.2 (TeX Live 2019/W32TeX)
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@UlrikeFischer ooh
 
mickep
mickep
What is this HarfBuzz for?
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@mickep Font shaping
 
mickep
mickep
@JosephWright Thanks! I'm reading some presentation from harfbuzz.org to try to understand more about what that really means.
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
10:25 AM
@mickep color full emoji: tex.stackexchange.com/a/497407/2388, and better script shaping, e.g. burmese tex.stackexchange.com/a/515934/2388
@mickep basically it does what the context fontloader is doing too, but there is much more man power to work on all the scripts and so harfbuzz gets much more scripts right.
 
mickep
mickep
@UlrikeFischer Ah, I was just looking into one of the context docs where there are smileys (which I do not so much see the point of having). But burmese and other "cool" languages would be good to have support for.
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@UlrikeFischer Same here :)
 
Harald Hanche-Olsen
Harald Hanche-Olsen
But other than that, what has harfbuzz ever done for us?
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
10:40 AM
@mickep currently xetex (rather than luatex) is the system of choice for more or less all the indic scripts, mostly due to the use of HarfBuzz, so luahbtex changes that balance and allows people to use such scripts and access Lua....
@UlrikeFischer which options are you using to get that log?
@UlrikeFischer setting th eepoch and using xdvipdfmx -vvv I get
CID:/usr/local/texlive/2019/texmf-dist/fonts/opentype/public/lm/lmroman10-regular.otf[RRXETV+LMRoman10-Regular][CIDFontType0][6 glyphs][943 bytes]
 
adityaguharoy
adityaguharoy
10:58 AM
hi all
I want the default font of lstlisting (particularly for R language) to be textsf
is there a way to switch the default from ttfamily to sffamily ?
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@DavidCarlisle like this it looks like my output (I use -vv) with the exception of the string. Should I ask or do you want to check the sources?
@adityaguharoy yes, listings has a key for the font. (basicfamily)
 
adityaguharoy
adityaguharoy
oh thanks. Any reference (link or something) about the same ?
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@UlrikeFischer I probably have no time today during the day
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@DavidCarlisle then I will ask.
 
adityaguharoy
adityaguharoy
@UlrikeFischer @UlrikeFischer alternatively you can use ding
thanks friend. Cheers
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
11:03 AM
@adityaguharoy listings has a documentation, texdoc listings
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@adityaguharoy oh not that ( I didn't read the previous comment) that would make the whole doc sans serif
 
Skillmon
Skillmon
11:13 AM
@PauloCereda barbaric!
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@Skillmon it is!
 
Skillmon
Skillmon
@PauloCereda there is no excuse, how could a man like that ever be elected.
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@Skillmon ooh
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
11:30 AM
@UlrikeFischer @PauloCereda as far as I can see the prefix comes from srand which is repeateable on a given machine but for example one stackoverflow answr describes as:
Let me also reiterate that the algorithm used by rand is not specified. Therefore, different compilers (more specifically different standard libraries) can and will produce different random numbers.

Finally, let me say again that you should not use rand if at all possible.
pdf_font_make_uniqueTag (char *tag)
{
  int    i;
  char   ch;
  static char first = 1;

  if (first) {
    time_t current_time;
    current_time = dpx_util_get_unique_time_if_given();
    if (current_time == INVALID_EPOCH_VALUE)
      current_time = time(NULL);
    srand(current_time);
    first = 0;
  }

  for (i = 0; i < 6; i++) {
    ch = rand() % 26;
    tag[i] = ch + 'A';
  }
  tag[6] = '\0';
}
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@DavidCarlisle ouch, not reliable...
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@DavidCarlisle I just sent the question and then you find the answer ;-). Well this obviously means that either they change the code or @JosephWright will have to normalize that Replace every "/".."six uppercase".."+" should probably work.
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@UlrikeFischer Might be easiest ..
 
daleif
daleif
12:10 PM
@UlrikeFischer the person with strange texstudio that wants to update miktex has posted a screen shot of the messsage their keep getting. But it is in German, do you mind (I haven't keeps up with the German I lerned in school) ? tex.stackexchange.com/q/514361/3929
 
AlexG
AlexG
12:23 PM
@Rmano , @skillmon I put this tl-portable.shskript into ~/texlive/2019/ and I run it to set up the evironment in the current shell: 
#!/bin/bash

####################################
# starts shell with TL environment #
####################################

TEXDIR=$(dirname $(realpath $0))

platform=$($TEXDIR/install-tl --print-arch)

if test "$platform" = ""; then
  echo 'Platform unsupported'
  exit 1
fi

if test ! -d $TEXDIR/bin/$platform; then
  echo 'Platform unsupported'
  exit 1
fi

export PATH=$TEXDIR/bin/$platform:~/bin:$PATH
export MANPATH=$TEXDIR/texmf-dist/doc/man:$MANPATH
export INFOPATH=$TEXDIR/texmf-dist/doc/info:$INFOPATH
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
12:34 PM
@daleif well that's the standard windows UAC-dialog. But it doesn't explain why texstudio triggers a miktex update or a miktex installation for the admin.
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
12:48 PM
@DavidCarlisle I guess we might need to talk to them about what counts as a Unicode engine
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@HaraldHanche-Olsen, @mickep, @DavidCarlisle news.sky.com/story/…
 
mickep
mickep
@PauloCereda Ohh, unforgivable!
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@JosephWright yes latex.ltx (and iftex) more or less arbitrarily take \Umathchar to mean "fontspec will work" \Uchar is getting close to that....
 
Hironobu YAMASHITA
Hironobu YAMASHITA
(\Uchar and \Ucharcat in e-(u)pTeX) @josephwright @davidcarlisle Searching through TeX Live, we found that all packages which detect Unicode engines (= XeTeX and LuaTeX) uses \Umathcode or some other Unicode math primitives; no package used \Uchar or \Ucharcat as a marker.
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@HironobuYAMASHITA Sure, but I mean what does it leave as the Unicode status of upTeX (I'm even more confused by pTeX): as I understand it, upTeX isn't a Unicode-compliant engine
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
12:58 PM
@HironobuYAMASHITA has to be said \Uchar can be pretty useful, so it's a welcome addition, thanks! (just a bit scary I had to look at all the \ifx\U.. tests we have:-)
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@mickep you know what else is amusing in that report? They brought a tea expert. :)
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@JosephWright when did you give me +100 for that?:-)
 
mickep
mickep
@PauloCereda It is good to take things seriously. :)
 
daleif
daleif
1:14 PM
@UlrikeFischer thanks, I'm baffled as well.
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@mickep :)
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
1:47 PM
ooh Macbook Pro 16"
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@PauloCereda WOW!
 
mickep
mickep
@PauloCereda But does it come with LuaHBTeX?
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@JosephWright /hyperventilation
@mickep ooh HB
 
AlexG
AlexG
@JosephWright Is this brexit-related?
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@AlexG No
 
Hironobu YAMASHITA
Hironobu YAMASHITA
1:52 PM
@JosephWright though I think upTeX is not Unicode-compliant in that it has some restrictions in handling multibyte characters, I'm not 100% sure what actually counts as a Unicode TeX engine. If you need some discussion with us, use this place: github.com/texjporg/ptex-manual/issues/7
 
AlexG
AlexG
@JosephWright I was afraid it would be, because it names geographical limits.
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@AlexG Hah!
@HironobuYAMASHITA From my POV, I think of it as not a Unicode engine, as that really means XeTeX/LuaTeX with Unicode math support
 
yo'
yo'
@JosephWright :-/
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@AlexG I am probably kicked out then... :(
(I am a UK-TUG member)
 
AlexG
AlexG
2:07 PM
@PauloCereda Overlap is explicitly mentioned. So no worries.
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@AlexG woo
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@AlexG only "some" overlap ;-)
 
AlexG
AlexG
@UlrikeFischer :-)
 
Hironobu YAMASHITA
Hironobu YAMASHITA
@JosephWright clear enough, thanks
 
norbert
norbert
@JosephWright So the distinction is Unicode Math?
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
2:16 PM
@norbert Well, to-date we've had XeTeX/LuaTeX which have Unicode math, font loading, Unicode char support throughout, and other engines, which lack all of that; upTeX is currently treated by expl3 as an 8-bit-like engine as it's not Unicode-throughout ... it's complicated, I guess
@HironobuYAMASHITA do you know the char range that pTeX and upTeX will have for \Uchar?
 
norbert
norbert
Hmm, interesting way of thinking ;-)
BTW, late comer here - what is going on UK-TUG?
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@norbert I think actually I'd go with the various tables: can the engine set \lccode, \catcode, etc. for all of UTF-8
@norbert See all the mails there ...
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@JosephWright how does uptex handle an input like ä does it see one char or two bytes?
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@UlrikeFischer Er, ask @HironobuYAMASHITA
@UlrikeFischer One char, but a bit odd: 
\def\foo#1{\ifx\relax#1\relax\else\showtokens{#1}\expandafter\foo\fi}
\foo é\relax
This is e-upTeX, Version 3.14159265-p3.8.2-u1.25-190131-2.6 (utf8.uptex) (TeX Live 2019/W32TeX) (preloaded format=uplatex)
 restricted \write18 enabled.
entering extended mode
(./test.tex
pLaTeX2e <2019-10-01u02>+1 (based on LaTeX2e <2019-10-01> patch level 3)
> 辿.
\foo ...ifx \relax #1\relax \else \showtokens {#1}
                                                  \expandafter \foo \fi
l.2 \foo 辿
            \relax
?
 
norbert
norbert
@JosephWright oh, UL-TUG, wow ...
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
2:27 PM
@norbert Huh?
@UlrikeFischer pTeX also treats as one byte ...
 
norbert
norbert
Just read all the UK-TUG mails,
seems you will have a funny meeting on Saturday! Enjoy!
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@norbert depressing reading
 
norbert
norbert
@David
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@JosephWright are you sure? If I run this (with euptex) I get two show messages, so it looks as if it sees them byte by byte while with luatex I get only one.
 
norbert
norbert
@DavidCarlisle Well, it was obviously to me for one specific reason ...
 
Hironobu YAMASHITA
Hironobu YAMASHITA
2:29 PM
@JosephWright That strange behavior is exactly what we are going to change in the future (not completed yet). github.com/texjporg/tex-jp-build/issues/81 In current (u)pTeX, some byte sequences are misinterpreted into Japanese token in some case (\meaning, \show, etc.) However, changing the longstanding feature can cause a dangerous incompatiblity, so we should be very careful before changing this.
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@UlrikeFischer Yes, just double-cheked
@norbert Oh, I am so looking forward to it
 
norbert
norbert
@JosephWright I would happily participate, must be a great spectacle!
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@HironobuYAMASHITA Well yes: at the moment, for expl3 (where I do worry about this) the approach has been to stay away from anything outside of the classical ASCII range
@norbert You could always join ...
 
norbert
norbert
@JosephWright besides the flight to London ...
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@JosephWright on your test file I get: 
This is e-upTeX, Version 3.14159265-p3.8.2-u1.25-190131-2.6 (utf8.uptex) (TeX Live 2019) (preloaded format=euptex 2019.11.10)  13 NOV 2019 14:31
entering extended mode
 restricted \write18 enabled.
 %&-line parsing enabled.
**cc321
(./cc321.tex
> Ã.
\foo ...ifx \relax #1\relax \else \showtokens {#1}
                                                  \expandafter \foo \fi
l.2 \foo é
           \relax
?
> ©.
\foo ...ifx \relax #1\relax \else \showtokens {#1}
                                                  \expandafter \foo \fi
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
2:32 PM
C:\Users\joseph\Desktop\test>eptex test
This is e-pTeX, Version 3.14159265-p3.8.2-190131-2.6 (utf8.sjis) (TeX Live 2019/W32TeX) (preloaded format=eptex)
 restricted \write18 enabled.
entering extended mode
(./test.tex(guessed encoding: EUC-JP = euc)
> 辰.
\foo ...ifx \relax #1\relax \else \showtokens {#1}
                                                  \expandafter \foo \fi
l.2 \foo 辰
           \relax
?
 )
No pages of output.
Transcript written on test.log.
@DavidCarlisle ^^^ (I added \end) 
C:\Users\joseph\Desktop\test>euptex test
This is e-upTeX, Version 3.14159265-p3.8.2-u1.25-190131-2.6 (utf8.uptex) (TeX Live 2019/W32TeX) (preloaded format=euptex)
 restricted \write18 enabled.
entering extended mode
(./test.tex(guessed encoding: EUC-JP = euc)
> 辰.
\foo ...ifx \relax #1\relax \else \showtokens {#1}
                                                  \expandafter \foo \fi
l.2 \foo 辰
            \relax
?
 )
No pages of output.
Transcript written on test.log.
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@JosephWright you get (guessed encoding: EUC-JP = euc) I do not, presumably after that everything is different (@HironobuYAMASHITA ?)
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@JosephWright you mean if you hit enter the compilation ends? That's odd. I get also a line about a binary encoding: (./test-utf8.tex(guessed encoding: BINARY = jis).
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@UlrikeFischer I've just added end: my demo is now: 
\def\foo#1{\ifx\relax#1\relax\else\showtokens{#1}\expandafter\foo\fi}
\foo ä\relax
\end
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@JosephWright with that I still get no guessed encoding and log file 
This is e-upTeX, Version 3.14159265-p3.8.2-u1.25-190131-2.6 (utf8.uptex) (TeX Live 2019) (preloaded format=euptex 2019.11.10)  13 NOV 2019 14:35
entering extended mode
 restricted \write18 enabled.
 %&-line parsing enabled.
**cc322
(./cc322.tex
> Ã.
\foo ...ifx \relax #1\relax \else \showtokens {#1}
                                                  \expandafter \foo \fi
l.2 \foo ä
           \relax
?
> ¤.
\foo ...ifx \relax #1\relax \else \showtokens {#1}
                                                  \expandafter \foo \fi
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@DavidCarlisle I'm booting my VM ...
 
Hironobu YAMASHITA
Hironobu YAMASHITA
2:36 PM
@josephwright @davidcarlisle The misinterpretation depends on the internal kanji encoding (shown as (utf8.euc) -> euc, (utf8.sjis) -> sjis). See the last section of pTeX guide named "strange beast"
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@HironobuYAMASHITA thanks
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@JosephWright I made a new file with only the content and it worked like yours. And then I copied a few hundreds line of the mess in my test file (below the code) and it changed.
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@UlrikeFischer Ah ..
 
Hironobu YAMASHITA
Hironobu YAMASHITA
pTeX and upTeX distinguishes Japanese characters from byte sequences by its internal kanji encoding; when some byte sequence matches its internal kanji encoding, the byte sequence is considered (or misinterpreted) as a single Japanese character. When no match, that byte sequence is interpreted similar to Knuthian TeX; that is why the misinterpretation depends on the internal kanji encoding.
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@HironobuYAMASHITA which document? I looked at github.com/texjporg/ptex-manual/blob/master/ptex-guide-en.pdf but I don't think that is the right thing?
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
2:45 PM
@DavidCarlisle Linux VM gives the same: must be partly platform-dependent
 
Hironobu YAMASHITA
Hironobu YAMASHITA
@DavidCarlisle Sory we don’t build pdf regularly, see github.com/texjporg/ptex-manual/blob/for-tl2020/…
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@JosephWright it is enough to add a ❤ ;-).
 
Hironobu YAMASHITA
Hironobu YAMASHITA
@JosephWright On windows, internal encoding of eptex is sjis. Other systems should be using euc. The internal encoding of euptex is always uptex (thus utf-16be)
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@UlrikeFischer :)
@UlrikeFischer It's great that you found that!
@HironobuYAMASHITA Ah, right: so like I said, platform is important
@HironobuYAMASHITA Thanks for taking the lead in documenting this stuff: it really is useful
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@HironobuYAMASHITA yes I looked at the tex as well, but wrong branch:-)
 
norbert
norbert
2:47 PM
Good night.
2
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@HironobuYAMASHITA "Therefore, the overall range of <character code> is \emph{not} continuous." you do make sure life is interesting:-)
@norbert night.
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@norbert 'Night
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@JosephWright arabic works to (and probably also the other scripts currently running around in the test file ;-). But this makes it even more difficult to say if it is an unicode engine or not, if it sometimes reads in 8 bit blocks and sometimes not ;-(.
@norbert Night, I hope you enjoy the luahbtex ...
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@UlrikeFischer Well yes, I think it has to be all-or-nothing
@UlrikeFischer I certainly am
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@norbert night!
 
Hironobu YAMASHITA
Hironobu YAMASHITA
3:53 PM
@DavidCarlisle @josephwright Another notice: in TL2020 (e-pTeX 190709 or later) you will be able to check "whether an integer is a valid Japanese character code or not" by using \iffontchar (still only described in Japanese github.com/texjporg/ptex-manual/blob/for-tl2020/…)
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@HironobuYAMASHITA I'll look forward to some English docs ...
 
Hironobu YAMASHITA
Hironobu YAMASHITA
@JosephWright let's hope it will appear in this weekend ...
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
yesterday, by David Carlisle
@cis @UlrikeFischer will confirm that my German is excellent, strangely on a par with my Japanese.
you can ask @DavidCarlisle to translate, ^^
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@UlrikeFischer ooh
@UlrikeFischer ooh
@JosephWright ooh
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
4:21 PM
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@DavidCarlisle ooh
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@PauloCereda I realise my English prose style may be hard for a duck to follow
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@DavidCarlisle quack
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@PauloCereda Dinner!
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@DavidCarlisle oh no
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
4:26 PM
@DavidCarlisle exported from the pdf?
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@UlrikeFischer yes all the links in all the pdf in oberdiek bundle (w3c link checker is checking it at the moment)
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@DavidCarlisle how did you extract them? I actually found a link this morning but then forgot to sent it: stackoverflow.com/questions/8100592/…
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@UlrikeFischer seemed I had a pdftohtml from somewhere on this machine then grep for lines with <a href.*http> and make a html file with just those,
@UlrikeFischer oh that link is almost same path just using pdftotext rather than pdftohtml as stage 1
@UlrikeFischer useful exercise, showed up some errors...
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
4:42 PM
@DavidCarlisle I'm sure of this, there is always a wrong link somewhere. I bet if you do in the latex documentation ...
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@PauloCereda, @egreg ^^^
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@JosephWright I cannot afford it... :(
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@UlrikeFischer has adobe rearranged their site, once I have fixed structural ctan links, and http https redirects I get
which all 404 after the redirect
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@DavidCarlisle apple?!
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@PauloCereda ?
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
4:57 PM
@DavidCarlisle you were quick. :)
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@DavidCarlisle hmmm something in motion
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@DavidCarlisle Fixed
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@JosephWright Oh OK thanks, I changed the link to point to the new one as well. (the w3c link checker moans about redirects as well, just not so much as broken ones)
@UlrikeFischer @JosephWright any thoughts on what to do about luatex package, I'd like to not distribute it but I'm not sure I can get away with that?
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
5:49 PM
@DavidCarlisle If I remember correctly the discussion last year it is more or less dead code. But pdftexcmds loads luatex-loader.sty so would need to be adapted first. Then we could replace the luatex files locally by something that errors and run a few test.
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@DavidCarlisle Lets try to kill it
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@JosephWright ooh an assassination plot
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@PauloCereda remember the dragon ;-)
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@UlrikeFischer ooh the Deutschedragon :)
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@DavidCarlisle an the new list (pmboxdraw.dtx) github.com/adobe-type-tools/agl-aglfn/blob/master/aglfn.txt
@DavidCarlisle for the pdf reference in attachfile2 one could update to 1.7 adobe.com/devnet/pdf/pdf_reference.html, the tiff pdf in bmpsize is here adobe.io/content/dam/udp/en/open/standards/tiff/TIFF6.pdf
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
6:12 PM
@UlrikeFischer thanks I'll update in a bit
@UlrikeFischer oh I thought I'd got rid of the dependencies. grr, let me look...
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@DavidCarlisle I would have done it but I wasn't sure if the github is up-to-date.
@DavidCarlisle I'm actually not sure if it loads it really, I only found the name in the file.
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
% \end{Version}
% \begin{Version}{2017/01/29 v0.24}
% \item
% Avoid loading luatex-loader for current luatex. (Use
% pdftexcmds.lua not oberdiek.pdftexcmds.lua to simplify file
% search with standard require)
% \end{Version}
@UlrikeFischer but I need to check if that's true
@UlrikeFischer only if luatexversion <80
@UlrikeFischer yes I have pushed all my changes
@UlrikeFischer I hope ctan will forgive me but for these structural URL change I'm not changing version numbers/dates (as changing them here is painful) so plan is it will go to ctan with makerobust moved to a new repo and holtxdoc.sty with new date/revision with new ctan macros, but all the rest unchanged/
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@DavidCarlisle oh yes, that would be a problem ;-). Let's hope.
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
6:27 PM
@UlrikeFischer changing dates would be easy, I could make them all today but doing a global edit to bump the version numbers by 1 would be a bit more fiddly, and would mean the ctan maintainers would have to update every catalogue entry
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
6:39 PM
@DavidCarlisle oh yes the catalog too.
They are recalculating the question votes. It will push me over 222222 ;-(.
4
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
7:05 PM
@UlrikeFischer I'm sure we could downvote you back if you want
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@DavidCarlisle oh no
 
barbara beeton
barbara beeton
7:19 PM
@DavidCarlisle -- Advice: When you're getting ready to retire (and do it far enough ahead of time), make sure that your home computer is compatible with your work computer. It's a real bummer if it isn't.
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@barbarabeeton currently my work computer is my home computer...
@UlrikeFischer oh I hadn't seem that.I think @egreg and I are safe
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
7:41 PM
@JosephWright miktex will use tomorrow luahbtex for lualatex-dev ;-)
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
We’re Rewarding the Question Askers
Sara Chipps on November 13, 2019

In my very first blog post, I wrote about what a personal experience taught me about the Stack Overflow community. I said we were going to step back and re-evaluate how we deliver feedback, how we can improve content quality, and how we can reduce friction between people. I said that our goal is to have the question asking process be painless and beneficial for new people and Stack Overflow veterans alike.    

During this re-evaluation period, we noticed something in our reputation reward system. We give anyone who receives an upvote on an answer ten additional reputation points, but only give five reputation points to people who receive an upvote on a question.  …

 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@UlrikeFischer @JosephWright nothing in my texlive tree uses luatex-loader and just this one uses luatex /usr/local/texlive/2019/texmf-dist/tex/lualatex/luatodonotes/luatodonotes.sty: \RequirePackage{luatex}` (hyperref passes option to luatex but no longer loads it, I'll fix that)
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@DavidCarlisle Kill it then
 
yo'
yo'
@JosephWright So I'm earning more points than @egreg and @DavidCarlisle together today?
3
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@yo' Looks that way
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
7:56 PM
@JosephWright oh and even that package doesn't load it: 
% \changes{0.3}{2015/11/12}{Remove package \texttt{luatex} for current
% versions of Lua\LaTeX (as it caused problems)}
%    \begin{macrocode}
\@ifpackagelater{luatexbase}{2013/05/04}{}{
    \RequirePackage{luatex}
}
%    \end{macrocode}
 
Paulo Cereda
Paulo Cereda
@JosephWright oh no
 
barbara beeton
barbara beeton
8:10 PM
user image
5
@AlanMunn -- Thought you might have some reaction to this ... (The east coast analysis is pretty good, provided you're far enough north.)
 
BrainStone
BrainStone
8:45 PM
Can I create this with a loop? 
\newfontfamily\LexendDeca{LexendDeca}
\newfontfamily\LexendExa{LexendExa}
\newfontfamily\LexendGiga{LexendGiga}
\newfontfamily\LexendMega{LexendMega}
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
\def\zz#1{\expandafter\newfontfamily\csname Lexend#1\endcsname{Lexend#1}}\zz{Deca}\zz{Exa}\zz{Giga}\zz{Mega} or you could use , list rather than \zz if you want
 
BrainStone
BrainStone
I have a list that contains the full names already. 
\def\lexendVariants{
	LexendDeca,
	LexendExa,
	LexendGiga,
	LexendMega
}
And since I'm doing this for a package, wouldn't it make sense to clean the helper command up?
@DavidCarlisle How would I do that with a list?
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
9:06 PM
\def\lexendVariants#1{\@for\tmp:=#1\do{\expandafter\newfontfamily\csname \tmp\endcsname{\tmp}} if you don't have spaces after , just a bit nore if you want to trim space
 
BrainStone
BrainStone
How do I use that?
Sorry for all those stupid questions, this is just stuff I never did before and I find it a bit hard to understand...
Currently I have this: 
% Font list
\def\lexendVariants{
LexendDeca,%
LexendExa,%
LexendGiga,%
LexendMega,%
LexendPeta,%
LexendTera,%
LexendZetta%
}

% Font aliases
\def\lexendVariants#1{\@for\tmp:=#1\do{\expandafter\newfontfamily\csname \tmp\endcsname{\tmp}}}
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@BrainStone do you want the list for something else, or just for that, I was writing it as if you would distinctly execute the list rather than save it in a macro first?
 
BrainStone
BrainStone
@DavidCarlisle I want it as a command so people can iterate over the variants
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@BrainStone that's what I mean, given the def I suggeset you could do: 
\lexendVariants{
LexendDeca,%
LexendExa,%
LexendGiga,%
LexendMega,%
LexendPeta,%
LexendTera,%
LexendZetta%
}
and it would do the newfontfamily (but not save the list) I don't know if you want to save the list?
 
BrainStone
BrainStone
@DavidCarlisle Yes I'd like to save the list
 
AlexG
AlexG
9:14 PM
@DavidCarlisle : Apparently, after updating grffile, multiple dots in filenames don't work anymore :(. Adding option [v=1] didn't help.
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@BrainStone ok then probably def\myfontfams#1{\expandafer\@for\expandafter\tmp\expandafter:\expandafter=#1\do{\expandafter\newfontfamily\csname \tmp\endcsname{\tmp}}} then \myfontfams{\lexendVariants{}
@AlexG they work for me:-)
@AlexG do you have latex 2019-10-01 patch level 3 ?
 
BrainStone
BrainStone
@DavidCarlisle Perfect. Can I undefine it after?
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@BrainStone undefine what, the loop comand or the font family?
 
Phelype Oleinik
Phelype Oleinik
@BrainStone Or, with a few extra _ and : \clist_map_inline:Nn \lexendVariants { \exp_args:Nc \newfontfamily { Lexend#1 } { Lexend#1 } } ;-)
 
AlexG
AlexG
@DavidCarlisle Yes, patchlevel 3. TL updated today.
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
9:17 PM
@PhelypeOleinik I was leaving that for @egreg but you can step in and be his apprentice
 
BrainStone
BrainStone
@DavidCarlisle The loop command
 
Phelype Oleinik
Phelype Oleinik
@DavidCarlisle That's what I got in the Team for ;-)
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@BrainStone you can, \let\myfontfams=\@undefined and in 1993 we would have done, but saving half a dozen bytes isn't usually worth the effort these days
 
BrainStone
BrainStone
I see
It's just to prevent exposing commands not meant for outside the sty file
 
AlexG
AlexG
@DavidCarlisle And grffile.sty 2019/11/11 v2.1.
 
BrainStone
BrainStone
9:20 PM
@DavidCarlisle That code doesn't work:
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@BrainStone well I'm confused now as you could call it a name with @ then it wouldn't be usable in the document (that is the whole point of the@ convention) but if it is just used once in the style file why not have a loop directly rather than make a command?
 
BrainStone
BrainStone
! Undefined control sequence.
\myfontfams #1->\expandafer
                                \@for \expandafter \tmp \expandafter :\expan...

l.31 \myfontfams {\lexendVariants{}}
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@BrainStone well it works up to typing errors. \expandafter
 
BrainStone
BrainStone
I don't care how it's done
Looping directly is fine
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@BrainStone no that's what I did and you said you wanted a command....
 
BrainStone
BrainStone
9:22 PM
@DavidCarlisle My apologies
I misunderstood your question
I want the list \lexendVariants to stay
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@AlexG forget grffile the old code doesn't work anymore and the new code does nothing at all.
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@AlexG can you show an example? And how do you compile?
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@AlexG the question is why multiple dots don't work, best if you ask a question with a test file
 
AlexG
AlexG
@DavidCarlisle I am putting together something.
 
BrainStone
BrainStone
9:34 PM
@PhelypeOleinik Thanks for the code that works
Having the expl3 package as a dependency in a package shouldn't be an issue, right?
 
Phelype Oleinik
Phelype Oleinik
@BrainStone No. Besides fontspec is written in expl3, so you'll be loading nothing more.
 
BrainStone
BrainStone
I see
@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer, @PhelypeOleinik I'd like to acknowledge your great help. Would you like to be mentioned by name in the acknowledgements and if so is the name you use here your real name?
 
Phelype Oleinik
Phelype Oleinik
@BrainStone Fine with me (this is my real name), and thanks :-)
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@BrainStone fine with me, and yes it is my real name too.
 
AlexG
AlexG
9:53 PM
@DavidCarlisle , @UlrikeFischer Here we are: 
% Preparations
% ln -s $(kpsewhich example-image.pdf) ./example.image.pdf
% ln -s $(kpsewhich example-image.tex) ./example.image.tex

% pdflatex mwe
% this used to work until yesterday or this morning
%
% ! LaTeX Error: Unknown graphics extension: .image.
%
% See the LaTeX manual or LaTeX Companion for explanation.
% Type  H <return>  for immediate help.
%  ...
%
% l.10 \includegraphics[scale=0.5]{example.image}
%
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{graphicx}
%\usepackage{grffile}

\begin{document}
(I keep the pdf and its source file together.)
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@AlexG no problem here: <./example.image.pdf> is include. Can you show the log-file?
 
AlexG
AlexG
@UlrikeFischer You also need example.image.tex in the same directory. Then it fails. (What used to work until this morning.)
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@AlexG oh, I see. @DavidCarlisle ^^^
@AlexG but adding the extension works: example.image.pdf.
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@BrainStone no need to mention me, but this is my real name...
@AlexG let me see...
 
BrainStone
BrainStone
Alright. Will put you in ^^
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
10:10 PM
@AlexG @UlrikeFischer oh er well that's tricky (if that worked before it was by luck, did it really? I suppose it did if you say so...) the first thing it does is try \IfFileExists{example.image} if it exists, it tries to include that as an image, if it doesn't exist then it tries adding default extensions and so would find example.image.pdf but here \IfFileExists{example.image} is true as tex adds the .tex extension in its internals, and the macro layer can't see that.
@JosephWright ^^
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@DavidCarlisle Ah, that, yes ....
@DavidCarlisle goodie :(
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@DavidCarlisle why don't one get a similar problem if there is example.pdf and example.tex?
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@UlrikeFischer don't you (with \includegraphics{example} I'll test but I would expect that you do..
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@DavidCarlisle No, works fine: (./example.tex) <example.pdf, id=1,
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@UlrikeFischer who wrote that code? I have no idea how it works.
@AlexG the only way to make that work I think is never to accept an "unknown" file extension and if it is unknown skip the file exists check and move straight to trying default extensions, so it would not attempt example.image but would move straight to trying example.image.pdf, but some people like using weird extensions (and saying they are all eps or whatever)
@UlrikeFischer ah yes in that case it can't guess a filetype as it has no extension at all, so it tries adding extensions. I wonder if I can unifiy them, althugh if you use example.png you really want it to do that not try example.png.pdf etc
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
10:24 PM
@DavidCarlisle but could it not first split the extension and if it doesn't know it, reassemble the file name and then try adding?
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@UlrikeFischer just looking
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
10:43 PM
@AlexG @UlrikeFischer @JosephWright too late for real testing but 
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{graphicx}
\makeatletter
\catcode`\*=11

\def\Ginclude@graphics#1{%
  \ifx\detokenize\@undefined\else
    \edef\Gin@extensions{\detokenize\expandafter{\Gin@extensions}}%
  \fi
  \begingroup
  \let\input@path\Ginput@path
  \set@curr@file{#1}%
  \expandafter\filename@parse\expandafter{\@curr@file}%
  \ifx\filename@ext\Gin@gzext
    \expandafter\filename@parse\expandafter{\filename@base}%
    \ifx\filename@ext\relax
      \let\filename@ext\Gin@gzext
    \else
      \edef\Gin@ext{\Gin@ext\Gin@sepdefault\Gin@gzext}%
 
Phelype Oleinik
Phelype Oleinik
@DavidCarlisle This file name handling thing reminds me of that quote Knuth speaks of: "Err and err and err again but less and less and less" :-)
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@PhelypeOleinik I think 8 uppercase letters a dot and 3 uppercase letters should be enough for anybody.
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@DavidCarlisle seems to find the file fine. But with \includegraphics{example.blub} I get 
LaTeX Warning: File `example.blub' not found on input line 322.

! Missing \endcsname inserted.
<to be read again>
                   \Gin@ext
l.322 \includegraphics{example.blub}

?

! LaTeX Error: Unknown graphics extension: \Gin@ext .
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
@UlrikeFischer it detects blub recognises that must be you so throws you a random error to keep you amused.
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@DavidCarlisle it knows you too: 
! Missing \endcsname inserted.
<to be read again>
                   \Gin@ext
l.322 \includegraphics{example.zzz}
 
David Carlisle
David Carlisle
10:51 PM
@UlrikeFischer basically it could be made to work, but I have an ifx in the wrong place somewhere, too tired now, also I'm not sure if I want to fix this, it makes the code even more complicated and @AlexG could just add the .pdf on the filename so it works, I'll look again tomorrow.
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@DavidCarlisle yes, while it is nice that one doesn't have to add the extension, if people start to confuse the code by adding random periods, they should do the extra work ...
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer, @egreg, @PhelypeOleinik Thoughts on github.com/latex3/latex2e/commit/… welcome
 
Phelype Oleinik
Phelype Oleinik
@JosephWright Might be nitpicking, but the final example might be misleading for users who do \usepackage{expl3}. Suggestion: "[...] and the loading of \pkg{expl3} in documents and packages can be done as usual."
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@PhelypeOleinik It's a draft: please edit :)
 
Phelype Oleinik
Phelype Oleinik
@JosephWright Will do :-)
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
11:06 PM
@JosephWright don't you want to mention "by loading large parts of the code in the format" and that one doesn't have to load the package?
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@UlrikeFischer Er, remember the Plan
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@JosephWright ok, so we wait that someone else mentions it ;-)
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@UlrikeFischer Yes
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
@JosephWright should there be also a section that lualatex-dev is based on luabhtex=
 
Joseph Wright
Joseph Wright
@UlrikeFischer Ah, yes: you take that?
 
Ulrike Fischer
Ulrike Fischer
11:14 PM
@JosephWright okay, but not today - it's getting late ...
 

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