@BAYMAX just approximate it, then fine tune it

or if you draw it properly , to scale and with a ruler, etc i 'll do it for you

u mean approximate it by equations?@tjt263

@PauloCereda greatfull

@FaheemMitha Excuse me. My intention was to find @Paulo Cereda, it really was wrong.

Hello all (and specially mathematicians)!!

A question regarding math notation: what kind of braces do you prefer to write a matrix? Would you use () or []?

Personally, I would go for () (using pmatrix, of course). What is the preferable by you and/or AMS? Thanks!!

@manooooh -- Regarding "AMS preference", whatever is present in the (accepted by editorial committee) manuscript as submitted by the author is not changed. So it's really up to the author. But if memory serves, parentheses are more common than square brackets.

@barbarabeeton hello Barbara! As a side note, I almost cried in the 50th anniversary of the Apollo 11 Mission... A man put on anoher land -- wow!!.... Ok, I expected a technical answer about why is () (or []) is better than [] (or ()), but it seems to be a matter of taste. Thanks!!

I just checked the AMS Syle Guide and it confirms that parentheses are more common than square brackets:

@DavidCarlisle Thanks!

Does anyone have a TeXLive 2016 install on Mac that they can test something for me? I had a bug report to my pdfoverlay package, but I can't reproduce it with TeXLive 2019 under Linux… And pdfoverlay.sty was not released before TeXLive 2018, so I don't know if I have made a mistake or there are issues with other packages or just a broken install.

@DavidPurton I don't have a mac but I have texlive 2016.

@DavidPurton Have TL'16; can you post the demo?

@Sebastiano Yes, we all miss @marmot.

I'm still not clear what happened to him, but it all seems very hush-hush.

@FaheemMitha he's back but his profile says he's leaving

@UlrikeFischer I thought I'd found all the luatex85 dependencies (even if only by adding the luatex85 package) must have missed that attachfile one :(

@DavidCarlisle ;-). I have been already wondering about a solution. Probably either create a luatex driver, or smuggle expl3/l3backend in ...

@UlrikeFischer in other cases that had a pdftex back end file I split to a luatex one so I think we need a atfi-pdftex.def -> atfi-luatex.def

@DavidCarlisle Leaving? That sucks.

@DavidCarlisle It is quite short. I think I would like to try to write a driver version with l3backend. That would be a nice test to check what is still missing. @JosephWright

@UlrikeFischer as a test but I wouldn't do that for an oberdiek update now, at some point we have the secret plan which may lead to large scale deprecations of existing code, but that should be done as an advertised step once it's not secret

@FaheemMitha see his profile

@yo' hey Tom, which style do you prefer?

@DavidCarlisle I read it.

@DavidCarlisle Yes, as a test. Do you want to create a atfi-luatex.def and add an option to the main style or should I do it?

@DavidCarlisle ^^ see how happy my songsheet is. :)

@UlrikeFischer if you can that would be good

@PauloCereda I thought that but thought it would be too silly to say anything public

@DavidCarlisle nah we are all wacky people here. :)

@DavidCarlisle what is this \def\atfi@temp for? To me it looks as if one can simply drop it ...

@UlrikeFischer this you mean? \atfi@temp\pdfrefxform checking that it is defined unprefixed back to when lualatex prefixed all the primitives, just drop it all, and if \useboxresource is defined just set things up for the current luatex.

@PauloCereda in general the latter, but it depends. Can you place the slur above?

@yo' I think I can... good idea! Thank you!

@PauloCereda sad ⌢

@DavidCarlisle oh

@PauloCereda :)

@yo' I can control the slur with \slurUp and \slurDown!

@DavidCarlisle I made the changes and pushed them in new branch github.com/ho-tex/oberdiek/tree/attachfile-issue69 for now. Perhaps you can take a look if I missed some version number somewhere ...

@UlrikeFischer thanks

@FaheemMitha I am in complete agreement with you: "seems very hush-hush". It is true.

@barbarabeeton See the image below.

@Sebastiano if someone wishes to leave without giving any reasons in public you should respect their wishes and let it drop: not keep bringing it up in public chat.

@PauloCereda You can use a( b) or a^( b) or a_( b)

@yo' Really?! OH MY

@yo' thank you! <3

@PauloCereda you're welcome from the summer camp :)

Btw, you would finally not feel cold here: Low 17C, High 31C

@yo' YAY

@yo' ooh

I had to sleep pretty underclothed tonight

Nevermind, this answer helped me tex.stackexchange.com/a/374883/2288

@DavidCarlisle would it be okay for you if I add this to bm: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/48373923#48373923. (and if yes, should it be in develop??)

@UlrikeFischer Everything via develop, as discussed

@UlrikeFischer atlassian.com/git/tutorials/comparing-workflows/…

@JosephWright I thought so, but wasn't completly sure as latex-dev doesn't contain tools (yet?).

@UlrikeFischer I didn't send tools only because there were no changes to send

@JosephWright there would have been if I had checked in xr :-)

@DavidCarlisle :)

@UlrikeFischer yes I guess so, can't do any harm, I think.

ctan.org/pkg/latex-base-dev

@DavidCarlisle okay, let's look how many version numbers you have ...

@UlrikeFischer you need this:

(defun ho-tex ()
  (interactive)
  (goto-char (point-min))
  (re-search-forward "File:\\s-+\\(.*\\)\\.dtx\\s-*\n%\\s-*Version: \\(20../../..\\) v\\([0-9]+\\)\\.\\([0-9]+\\)" 600)
  (let ((today "2019/02/28")
	(pkg  (match-string 1))
	(d  (match-string 2))
	(v1 (match-string 3))
	(v2 (match-string 4))
	)
    (narrow-to-region (point-min)
		      (progn (search-forward "begin{History}") (point)))
    (goto-char (point-min))
    (query-replace d today)
    (goto-char (point-min))
    (query-replace (concat today" v" v1 "." v2)

@DavidCarlisle WT??

@DavidCarlisle but not for bm.dtx I hope ...

@DavidCarlisle Rebase onto dev?

@JosephWright emacs lisp to bump a dtx by one version, when the version number appears in typically 12 places, possibly commented by tex or lua comments, and add a stub change entry ...

@UlrikeFischer no:-)

@DavidCarlisle how should I name the change? "mt2pro subscript work-around"?

@JosephWright I guess so, since we seem fairly relaxed about stuff in dev having interaction with contrib, so it could go out next time we do a dev release I think....

@UlrikeFischer, @DavidCarlisle We should do some kind of public announcement (particular with \ifincsname showing up)

@UlrikeFischer is that what it was for? or just "guard against active underscore" since it probably applies in other cases too

@JosephWright latex-l? your blog? a page on latex-project.org?

@JosephWright ooh

@JosephWright a video announcement

@DavidCarlisle latex-project.org

@PauloCereda with some ducks jumping down a cliff in unknown depth?

@UlrikeFischer oh no

@DavidCarlisle Except we don't want @marmot to go. I feel like circulating a petition. "Please stay. Don't go."

Folks, feel free to star. I'm not sure if anything will change marmot's mind, but we can still express how we feel.

@JosephWright You and Frank should write a tugboat paper and then post a copy on the project site...

> Natalie Portman Will Be Taking Up the Hammer as the Mighty Thor in Thor: Love and Thunder

NO!

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@AlanMunn: I am following the headlines regarding the recent protests on Trump's immigration policies. A 90-year-old nun from a group named Sisters of Mercy was arrested. They have a Twitter account and the last part of their description made me giggle:

The reason for that: The Sisters of Mercy are an English rock band, formed in 1980 in Leeds.

@PauloCereda :) Yes

@AlanMunn twitter.com/SistersofMercy/status/1153709608604749824

I love them already. :D

@DavidPurton Does he have example-image.pdf? Or more precisely: can he use it with \includegraphics?

@UlrikeFischer No, but said that the error occurs with all PDFs. He said it did work with \includegraphics

It also works with pdflatex

@DavidPurton ok, will check.

I didn't get him to test with \includepdf from pdfpages. but my package loads this, but uses \includegraphics directly

I don't know why it things the PDF is of type QTm. I assume this is a Mac thing? Quicktime?

The successful log from pdflatex looks like:

pdfTeX warning: /Library/TeX/texbin/pdflatex (file ../CommonWeekRamshoSooghwoto
2013.pdf): PDF inclusion: found PDF version <1.6>, but at most version <1.5> al
lowed
<../CommonWeekRamshoSooghwoto2013.pdf, id=1, 614.295pt x 794.97pt>
File: ../CommonWeekRamshoSooghwoto2013.pdf Graphic file (type pdf)

<use ../CommonWeekRamshoSooghwoto2013.pdf>
Package pdftex.def Info: ../CommonWeekRamshoSooghwoto2013.pdf used on input lin
e 9.
(pdftex.def)             Requested size: 614.29349pt x 794.96806pt.

@DavidPurton QTm is the file type for Quicktime Movie but I have no idea why it would think that a .pdf file was of that type.

@DavidPurton that's quite normal, at that time all graphics where handled by quick time, you can see it in the xetex.def. <@AlanMunn. I can reproduce the error, but need a bit time to track it down.

@AlanMunn Yes, I find this weird. There are some old posts mentioning this on the main tsx site. And suggested fixes involving updates to xetex.def. But none match exactly the behaviour reported to me.

@UlrikeFischer That's good! My only other thought is that it might be to do with LaTeX3 changes since TeXLive 2016

Perhaps the expansion in the \__pdfoverlay_format_pdf_page: function is to blame. I had trouble with this when I wrote the package and had to ask for help here, but therefore don't really understand how it works

@DavidPurton It will take a bit time - this xetex version is the one with the fc-cache bug and so xetex needs a lot time for every run. (tex.stackexchange.com/a/386834/2388).

@egreg maybe tex.stackexchange.com/questions/501273/… is actually a bug in tex.sprint? Or do complex numbers get printed ok in other cases and the problem is in the way complex.lua provides the number?

@DavidPurton xetex doesn't like that you stored the filename in a str, with a tl it works:

\documentclass{book}
\usepackage{expl3,graphicx}
\begin{document}
\ExplSyntaxOn
%\str_const:Nn \c__pdfoverlay_pdf_file_name_str { example-image.pdf } %breaks
\tl_const:Nn \c__pdfoverlay_pdf_file_name_str { example-image.pdf }   %works
\exp_args:Nx \includegraphics { \c__pdfoverlay_pdf_file_name_str }
\ExplSyntaxOff
\end{document}

@UlrikeFischer That's really odd

@UlrikeFischer Try with l3graphics?

@UlrikeFischer Thank you muchly! I'll see if that helps bug reporter

@JosephWright but this is with an old xetex.def, with the newer one there is no problem.

@UlrikeFischer Ah, right: phew

I confess, I don't really understand when to use l3str and l3tl…

I think I used l3str at the time, because I wanted a string… But the rules of TeX are a bit different to other languages

@JosephWright there are a lot of differences in the xetex.def, so I don't think that it is worth to try down where exactly the catcode matters (but I would suspect in the handling of the extension somewhere)

@DavidPurton Yes, but here it should be right: in the filename handling code for the kernel, I've used strings as that's what TeX ultimately needs

@UlrikeFischer Sure, makes sense

@DavidCarlisle you've been poked. :)

@JosephWright OK, so I shouldn't change the package now, right? I can just suggest the bug reporter makes a local change until they are able to update their TeXLive version?

@DavidPurton User probably should get updated xetex.def as they are using a newer package with an older system

@DavidPurton We did a lot of work on the graphics drivers to get them into some kind of logical order

@DavidPurton well a str is one sense safer, as it converts everything to catcode 12, but if the code expects somewhere the letters pdf you get a problem. With this here you get the same problem:

\str_const:Nn \extension { pdf } %breaks
\exp_args:Nx \includegraphics { example-image.\extension }

@UlrikeFischer you've been poked too. :)

@UlrikeFischer Yeah, but I think the package is right, and it's really the older driver code that's problematic

@JosephWright So is suggesting he install a recent version of the graphics-def package a good option? Will this break other things though? Or just suggest putting the new xetex.def in same folder as TeX file?

@DavidPurton I'm just wondering myself

@DavidPurton I don't think that someone can assure him that this won't break more stuff. They could have been some engine changes (in xetex or xdvipdfmx) and more. If he want to be safe he should install a newer texlive ;-).

@UlrikeFischer Curiously, it's a monk in some remote monastery, who does not have a reliable internet connection…

@DavidPurton ooh

In the past, monks provided a very useful service in preserving the Scriptures. Maybe now they typeset them beautifully with LaTeX?

@DavidPurton ooh

@DavidPurton Incidentally, I do all my church-related activities with TeX. :)

@DavidPurton Does he have a DVD drive? I could slip him a TL'19 one

@JosephWright Macbook Air. :)

@PauloCereda What else would you use? ;) I work full time as a Bible teacher with university students and do everything with LaTeX. I have very beautiful looking Bible studies. My colleagues think I'm weird…

@DavidPurton How nice!

An excerpt from an Eucharistic Prayer.

@JosephWright I could ask!

And the cover of my Graduale. :)

@PauloCereda Ooo Nice

@DavidPurton :)

@DavidCarlisle Hmm, noit quite the announcement I was thinking of: team list I guess

@PauloCereda I like that I can set stretchable glue between questions wih enumitem and have it automatically adjust to page height. Impossible to do in a Word processor and super easy to type set. I'm a bit slow with tikz for diagrams, but can do basic studies so much quicker and easier than with LibreOffice.

@DavidPurton WOW

@DavidPurton Very, very impressive!

This is actually for international students, so English level is a bit lower

@DavidPurton I like the icons!

@PauloCereda Haha, they are actually stolen (with permission) from visualunit.me.

@DavidPurton Cool!

@PauloCereda No Portuguese there, but Spanish as a close second

@DavidPurton Nice!

@DavidCarlisle Without a doubt I always respect all users for the decisions they have made and which they will decide. But you will permit me, at least I hope, to express a feeling that certainly does not affect the serenity, confidentiality, and privacy of the user. I assure you that you will have and will always have good faith in me.

Good afternoon to everybody into chat.

@CarLaTeX Long time no see?

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Hi! I'm very busy at work, lately! :'(

@CarLaTeX Yes, me too. But I had a long vacation, so I should not complain. (Except the proper summer heat is finally here now, not during all those weeks when I was off work. Oh well.)

Quack?

@HaraldHanche-Olsen oh no

@DavidCarlisle you are mean

Oopsie, sorry

@HaraldHanche-Olsen old habits die hard

@HaraldHanche-Olsen you are mean

@DavidCarlisle oh no

@DavidCarlisle oh

@HaraldHanche-Olsen oh

@HaraldHanche-Olsen I was on holiday, too, at the beginning of July, but now I have to catch up on :'(

@PauloCereda Já começou... :)

@AlanMunn :D

@PauloCereda forecast to be possibly 39 in London tomorrow, does that count as warm?

@DavidCarlisle Insufficient to roast a duck, I'm afraid.

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@HaraldHanche-Olsen oh no

@HaraldHanche-Olsen we could add a small barbecue burner

@DavidCarlisle oh no

@DavidCarlisle Only 37°C in Milan today :)

85 all out ??????

@UlrikeFischer ooooh

@CarLaTeX -- No time for the thesis? (We had a nice week off, on a mini-cruise around the "local" islands, and came home to a raging thunderstorm. Better than Cape Cod, which suffered a tornado! Now the temperature has subsided to a comfortable range -- 25C -- but climbing in the next few days back up to 32C+.)

@barbarabeeton Very little time for thesis :'( Oooh Cape Cod it should have been gorgeous!

@CarLaTeX -- We didn't actually visit Cape Cod, but the islands south of it. And that was delightful. But the tornado on the day we came home made a big mess; there's a motel in a very busy tourist area that now has no roof on one wing. Fortunately, no one was injured.

@barbarabeeton Oooh, sorry, I read too quickly. We had a tornado on the Adriatic Riviera, too!

@CarLaTeX -- I've never been close to a tornado, and don't think I want to be. A hurricane is scary enough. (The official hurricane season still has four months to go. We're keeping our fingers crossed that no bad ones will come ashore.)

@DavidCarlisle Not if you think it's Fahrenheit.

@egreg That's how Boris will fix global warming post Brexit.

@AlanMunn And of course meters and liters will become illegal.

@egreg They already are with that spelling. :)

HOLY COW

@AlanMunn You banning my electricity meter?

@JosephWright :)

@JosephWright ooh

@PauloCereda what could possibly go wrong?

@DavidCarlisle nothing. :)

@PauloCereda phew.

@AlanMunn ^^ :)

@PauloCereda Did you see his speach?

@JosephWright no... is there a link?

@PauloCereda bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-49073992

@DavidCarlisle @JosephWright ^^ blessing on disguise

Watching on YouTube.

@PauloCereda you are not missing much, there isn't even a zip wire

@DavidCarlisle what is a "zip wire"?

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@UlrikeFischer ^^^

@DavidCarlisle I was waiting for a giant foot to crush him at the end, as part of a typical British sketch. :)

Something has gone very wrong with my mail client.

FULL FIBER BROADBAND

@DavidCarlisle @JosephWright ^^

@AlanMunn what you need is a linguist to read it for you

@PauloCereda have that already (no thanks to the government:-)

@DavidCarlisle ooh high download rates

@DavidCarlisle Be my guest. :) Although I know what it says, I just don't know why it's saying it in that language.

@PauloCereda I get symmetric 50 Megabit up and down from here (and could have up to 900 if i paid more)

"We are loved around the world for [...] our humour..." That's for sure.

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@AlanMunn looks like a binary attachment was displayed as inline text. :)

@PauloCereda It's the text of another message, and it contains š which I think caused the client to guess the wrong encoding. But it's really weird, and annoying.

@AlanMunn Mail? (I mean, Apple)

@PauloCereda Are you kidding? I stopped using that piece of crap a long time ago. :) Postbox.

@AlanMunn ooh are you a Postbox user? Neat! I heard so many good things about that client!

@PauloCereda It's the next best thing to Eudora, which if it still ran would still be the best mail client of all time.

@AlanMunn I used it for a while too, but switched to Airmail. It has its warts too, but I am pretty happy with it.

I am still a Thunderbird poweruser. :)

"[...] our amazing food..."

@DavidCarlisle ^^ Mr. B's speech

@PauloCereda Yes, it's amazing what the British will eat. :)

@AlanMunn :)

@AlanMunn duck for example

@DavidCarlisle oh no

Fermat redux: in a footnote of a book draft I'm reading: "Part of the answer may be" (and that's the end of the footnote!)

@PauloCereda :)

@UlrikeFischer attachfile looks good, date in oberdiek.tex has gone backwards but I should be able to rebase it I think

@DavidCarlisle "date in oberdiek.tex"? what does that mean?

@DavidCarlisle ah, I just found oberdiek.tex. There is another date. But why did it go backwards? I didn't do anything with this file.

@UlrikeFischer you branched off an older version? the readme in master was 2019/06/04 but in your branch it went back to 2018? but anyway I think I rebased back over master and merged (but I had a merge conflict in one tpd file) I have pushed both branches back to github, having rebased attachfile then merged to master, you might like to check if you recognise any of it:-) I updated the dates in oberdiek and README to today or ctan will complain they don't match the package date:-)

@DavidCarlisle oh, that's possible. I perhaps branch from the old fork - I should really delete it.

@UlrikeFischer running l3build check here

@UlrikeFischer :(

@DavidCarlisle what happened?

build/test/alphalph-test2.pdftex.diff
build/test/alphalph-test3.pdftex.diff
build/test/attachfile2.luatex.pdf.diff
build/test/attachfile2.pdftex.pdf.diff
build/test/attachfile2.xetex.pdf.diff
build/test/catchfile-test2.luatex.diff
build/test/catchfile-test2.pdftex.diff
build/test/catchfile-test2.xetex.diff
build/test/hologo-test-spacefactor.luatex.diff
build/test/hologo-test-spacefactor.pdftex.diff
build/test/hologo-test-spacefactor.xetex.diff
build/test/hopatch-test2-4.luatex.diff
build/test/hopatch-test2-4.pdftex.diff

oh a pile of them are just the change to the english grammar in nfss messages:

! LaTeX Font Info:    Try loading font information for OMS+cmr on input line ....
  LaTeX Font Info:    Font shape `OMS/cmr/m/n' in size <10> not available
  (Font)              Font shape `OMS/cmsy/m/n' tried instead on input line ....
  Package alphalph Info: Number of symbols for \TestCmd is 9 on input line ....
--- 6,12 ----
  Package qstest Info: Passed: mult on input line ....
  Package alphalph Info: Number of symbols for \TestCmd is 26 on input line ....
  Package alphalph Info: Number of symbols for \TestCmd is 26 on input line ....

@DavidCarlisle I just tried the first (alphalph-test2) and it passed.

@UlrikeFischer which latex did you use, I guess I'm using dev

@DavidCarlisle I have the normal latex, at least for tests. For dev I would have to tell l3build somehow to use the other engine.

@UlrikeFischer I don't actually have an easily available standard format as I just installed latex from the develop branch and ran fmtutil-sys, so I don't have a latex-dev command, just latex ... I should set up fmtutil config to hav etwo formats I suppose (although presumably that will be in texlive soon anyway)

@DavidCarlisle I just started the testsuite my self - everything seems to work fine with the exception of my new test for attachfile - the embedded file has a mod-date ;-((.

@DavidCarlisle I guess one should use a support file and embed this instead of using filecontents (and hope that the line endings don't interfere).

@UlrikeFischer filecontents* would omit the date comment?