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12:57 AM
@barbarabeeton Well, some habits are harder to break. Especially when the argument is "we always did it like this". I am not suggesting that this is comparable, but with this attitude we still would have a monarchy because this is what we had for centuries. For my part I could never typeset the integral over d-dimensional space as \int f(x) d^dx, nor will I ever write a phase as e^{i\phi_i}.
 
1:08 AM
-- Indeed, the practice goes back centuries. What I'm trying to find out is when it began to change, and where (both in what discipline and what geographical area). As I said, I recognize the logic of the upright letters. I think the "need" for the distinction is much less among pure mathematicians, as "d" is not so often used for something else, whereas in physics, I believe it has a well-defined "other" meaning and is therefore liable to confusion.
I would like to learn of books or journals published before 1950 that use the upright forms; likely areas are physics, astronomy, engineeri
 
@barbarabeeton What I know is that most of the German-printed math books have upright d's with the exception of Springer. In particular, Bronstein which was of great use before Mathematica was broadly available has upright differential d's, which may be one of the reasons why to me italic d's seem wrong.
 
@marmot -- When was Bronstein published? I need references that were set in metal.
 
@barbarabeeton In any case, d does have many meanings, including e.g. "distance". And you may agree that putting down the Hubble expansion rate as H=\frac{dd}{dt} doesn't look good. I have two Bronsteins, one from 1991 with good d's and one in which the d's are italic from 1993.
@barbarabeeton Looking at the old Bronstein: IMHO this is a really nicely typeset book (given its age), when a sentence ends with an equation, there will be proper punctuation, the equations are "fleqn" type, and so on. Just the figures are not done with TikZ, i.e. the fonts in the figures differ from the one in the text. Other than than it is a great book. ;-)
 
1:26 AM
@marmot -- That's much too late. Books or journals set by Monotype would have been edited to a standard no longer in force. If the upright letters appear in such publications, that would establish an accepted practice and an "earliest" date. I'm willing to do some research on this, and try to find a place to present it formally; maybe in a Unicode document.
-- It sounds like the 1991 Bronstein was professionally edited. But it wasn't typeset by the "traditional" method, which was essentially extinct by the mid-1970s, if not earlier. Photocomposition, even well edited, wasn't up to the metal standards. I don't even want to consider the "cold type" methods, which were essentially glorified typewriter output.
I actually have a few engineering textbooks, mostly mechanics and fluid dynamics, from the 1950s, if I can figure out which boxes they live in. Calculus too, but that's almost certainly using the "math" conventions. I'll try to start wi
 
1:44 AM
@barbarabeeton I have just diged out a math book from 1964 (lectures given by Serre at Harvard), published by W. A. Benjamin. The d's are upright. (OK, to be fair, they are typeset with the typewriter and many math symbols are written by hand. But still, upright is upright. ;-)
 
@marmot -- Serre is definitely a solid source. But what other letters (in addition to d, i, and maybe e) are upright? Are any letters (variables) italic?
 
@barbarabeeton Only the handwritten ones. ;-)
 
1:58 AM
@marmot -- Okay, that may well indicate intent. But Serre is French, and as I said earlier, I have reason to believe there may also be a geographical distinction. (Since he was awarded the Fields Medal in 1954, he would have published quite a bit before 1960; it would be good to find a scan of something by him in French that was set in metal.)
 
@barbarabeeton In general I do not know if that counts. Many authors do not necessarily argue with the publishers. What I want to say is that the conventions followed in the book may not necessarily be those the authors like.
 
@marmot -- While editors and authors do not necessarily agree, it is not impossible that a sufficiently important author may prevail in a disagreement. And notation has been known to change. If I'm not mistaken, Serre was a member of Bourbaki, and that group has been instrumental in a number of areas that could influence the acceptance of particular notation. Which is why I suggested trying to find a scan of a French original.
 
2:33 AM
@barbarabeeton I guess that I would not be willing to adopt Serre's conventions so this exercise is maybe not too useful. And why Serre, and not, say Leibniz or Gauß? 😉 I feel that at this point the discussion with people who have otherwise always very logical arguments becomes very religious. What precisely are the arguments in favor of italic differential d's other than that some influential people like them?
 
@marmot -- To the best of my knowledge, "non-text" (i.e. math) has been set in italic to distinguish it from text. This goes back to very early typesetting. Obviously, this should be checked, and early editions of Gauss or Leibniz would be good places to start. I have a copy of Cajori's "History of Mathematical Notation" (in a box, sigh), and will see if I can find something useful there. It will certainly document the "d", but I'm not sure it will be specific about upright vs. italic.
 
@barbarabeeton I should add that I understand that there is social pressure. As a physicist I am more or less forced to typeset integrals as \int\!\diff x\, f(x), and agree with mathematicians that \int f(x)\,\diff x is better, but I sort of have no choice. So I would accept if mathematicians tell me they need to typeset differential d's italic for very similar reasons.
@barbarabeeton However,
frankly I have not seen a argument beyond social pressure to typeset d's italic, but I know many against them, like the derivative of a distance d or an integral over d-dimensional space.
 
2:55 AM
@marmot -- There is probably social pressure, largely tied to tradition, but mathematicians I know understand and accept the illogic, and basically have little problem with potential meaning conflicts. That's not true for physics, etc., where "d" has other well-defined meanings. For an example of what I mean, take a look at unicode.org/reports/tr25 bottom of page 6, the Hamiltonian equation. This is the example that caused the Unicode committee to agree that "style" matters.
If such a conflict were to arise in math with "d" or "i", I'm sure a change would be adopted. But so far, it's not needed.
 
3:14 AM
@barbarabeeton It says "Mathematicians will object that a properly formatted integral equation requires all the letters in this example (except perhaps for the d) to be in italics. ", implying that they are aware that some mathematicians will like the d to be upright, which is consistent with with my experience.
 
3:25 AM
@marmot -- That is Murray Sargent's statement; he was the primary author. Murray is a physicist. I mentioned my (mild) reservation, but didn't ask him to change it, since I know and agree with the logical argument. But I haven't met with noticeable resistance to the italic "d" from any mathematicians who haven't read the ISO standard. (I've known mathematicians who were seriously resistant about other, unrelated notation. I can recognize resistance.)
 
@barbarabeeton Sure, you can fight over notation endlessly. You won't believe what I had to endure when we wrote our last joint NSF grant proposal. In any case, I have not yet seen a real convincing argument for italic d's, at least in physics or mathematics that gets read by physicists. (To my own greatest excitement all of the presentations from the math department I attended used the beamer class, and I attended many. ;-)
 
@marmot -- Having (a long time ago) helped to write grant proposals at AMS, I think I understand. (In those days, proposals were just typed on a typewriter.) And one of my exciting encounters was the use of beamer by a noted visiting linguist lecturing at Brown. Regarding italic "d"s in physics, you won't get any argument from me -- the upright form is needed. (My quibbles really apply only to pure math.)
 
3:51 AM
@marmot -- The reason I'm so wound up about this is that I've been getting the question now for at least two decades. So I really would like to investigate, to find out the origin of the practice. Then, it may be time to see if there's any support for changing the way things are done. We'll see. However, it's now time to get some sleep. Nighty-night.
 
4:11 AM
@barbarabeeton <s>Hibernate</s> Sleep well!
 
 
2 hours later…
5:52 AM
I have a beamer document with a simple white background template, without any themes. I would like to add the "block" structure with an outline and shadow. I tried to customize it, with something like \newenvironment{variableblock}[3]{%
\setbeamercolor{block body}{#2}
\setbeamercolor{block title}{#3}
\begin{block}{#1}}{\end{block}}
However, I could not specify the block colors, without giving any beamer theme (which i do not want) i want the colors only for the block.
 
I just saw
14
A: How to install HarfTeX on TeXLive?

Ulrike FischerHm. Looks like I lured you into an adventure. Update There exist now an experimental luatex (version 1.11) which contains harfbuzz too. It is alreay in w32tex.org (pay attention on the date: it should be after 18.06.2019), and can be installed and used in a similar way. First step As you ar...

I'd be interested to see a similar output for Devanagari/Hindi, which I'm more familiar with.
 
6:16 AM
@FaheemMitha the deva from tex.stackexchange.com/questions/454031/… looks like this with harftex:
i have to go now and so can't comment more.
 
6:31 AM
@UlrikeFischer Is this in comparison to the line at the end of tex.stackexchange.com/a/457459/3406 ?
As mentioned there, the xelatex one is correct. The lualatex one is not.
Which is a bummer. Why the difference?
But this is quite old. Maybe it's better now.
 
7:08 AM
@FaheemMitha the harftex one should be like xetex
 
7:31 AM
@PauloCereda This is a specific issue. I am using overlay-beamer-styles.
\documentclass{beamer}
\usepackage{tikz}

\usetikzlibrary{positioning,automata,overlay-beamer-styles}
\tikzset{orange on/.style={alt=<#1>{orange}{}}}
\begin{document}
\begin{frame}{}

\begin{figure}[h]

$abbaabababa\ldots$\\
\begin{tikzpicture}[shorten >=1pt,node distance=2cm,on grid,auto]
\node[state,initial] (q_0) {$q_0$};
\node[state,accepting] (q_1) [above right=of q_0] {$q_1$};
\node[state] (q_4) [right=of q_1] {$q_4$};
\node[state] (q_2) [below right=of q_0] {$q_2$};
\node[state,accepting](q_3) [right=of q_2] {$q_3$};
I want the orange highlighting to be done between circles q2 and q3..
In particular,
something like this..
(q_2) edge[orange on =8,10, bend left=15] node {b} (q_3)
(q_3) edge node {b} (q_4)
edge[orange on =9,11, above, bend left=15] node {a} (q_2)
on 8, its a q2, on 9 at q3, on 10, back at q2 , on 11 at q2
 
looks more like a question for the main site
 
However, the syntax doesnt allow for [orange on = 8,10]
how do i specify both?
Or multiple numbers
@DavidCarlisle @PauloCereda gave me a suggestion yesterday, and there is a issue with it..
Im not sure if its complicated enough for the main site..
 
@GermanShepherd well it's middle of the night in Brazil and you just posted a screenful of code:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle I guess it is morning in Norway, @HaraldHanche-Olsen is here!
@DavidCarlisle Well, I 'll wait.. Im in no hurry.
 
8:17 AM
@GermanShepherd Just poking my head through the door now and then. Anyhow, I don’t use beamer,, so I can’t help.
 
@DavidCarlisle So historically XeTeX has had better support than LuaTeX?
 
8:39 AM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen purely driven by curiosity, what do you prefer for presentations, if not beamer?
 
8:51 AM
@FaheemMitha XeTeX uses a library for shaping (originally ICU, now HarfBuzz)
 
@JosephWright So LuaTeX + HarfBuzz would go some way towards achieving parity with XeTeX?
 
@JosephWright ICU is a living hell to build.
 
@FaheemMitha No, LuaTeX + HarfBuzz has exactly the same shaper as XeTeX
@PauloCereda Yes
 
@JosephWright Not sure what that means. I know XeLaTeX has had better support for internationalization for a while.
What would it take for LuaLaTeX to catch up?
 
@FaheemMitha The shaper is what makes the glyphs look right; using HarfBuzz, LuaTeX can 'catch up' with XeTeX
 
9:05 AM
@JosephWright So HarfBuzz is the "missing piece"?
 
@FaheemMitha Well, it's more that the Lua-based shaper in LuaTeX only has a very small number of people writing it, and they don't necessarily have time to look at all languages
 
I heard that Harfbuzz is already experimentally in LuaTeX. So will it be in a release in the near future?
@JosephWright There are a lot of languages.
 
@FaheemMitha It's actually writing systems that are important, I should have been clearer
@FaheemMitha Discussions are ongoing; I'd expect that TeX Live 2020 will feature an engine incorporating HarfBuzz into LuaTeX
 
@JosephWright Ok, that's good.
@JosephWright You mean like Devanagari etc?
I mean, alphabets?
Arabic/Persian/Urdu is probably also not super-trivial to handle.
I once learned enough of the Urdu alphabet to read basic Urdu, but I've long forgotten it. Probably wouldn't be hard to learn, though.
 
9:22 AM
@FaheemMitha the most complicated thing is not so much the alphabets or letter shapes themselves but the rules for combining input characters. luatex has traditionally done everything itself, in Lua which requires a very small number of people to write the code for each script and each font format, harfbuzz is the library used by firefox, chrome, open office etc as well as xetex so there are far more people working on it far more intensively.
 
@FaheemMitha One example, also Arabic
 
@DavidCarlisle I see.
 
9:49 AM
@FaheemMitha the down side is that it is a lot of C++ code that brings in quite a few build dependencies
@JosephWright hidden math use in 2e (again:-)
David Carlisle- Hello? thank you so much. Mathematical equation has been solved. But the layout of the table turned to the wrong side. — Bat-erdene Altangerel 9 hours ago
@JosephWright I don't think I'd tried xetex's vertical direction switch before. Its effect on math is not great:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle Yes, I noticed Harfbuzz is written in C++. I wish people would use something else.
 
@FaheemMitha we use Fortran mostly...
 
@DavidCarlisle Huh?
 
@FaheemMitha at work, most of our code is Fortran
 
10:04 AM
@DavidCarlisle What work is that? Not TeX-related, I assume.
I know it's still alive and well in scientific circles.
 
@FaheemMitha www.nag.com
 
I am trying to find if the performance I get from lualatex is OK or if there is something wrong in my set up that makes it take longer than needed. I get about 70 pages per minutes compiled PDF. i.e. I have about 2,200 PDF document, and it takes about 35 minutes to compile. I know this depends on many thing., my PC has 64 GB RAM, and fast modern intel CPU. Is this something reasonable to expect? Since I have to compile this at least 3 times, this takes over 1.5 hrs or so each time.
I am using TL 2019 on Linux (windows 10 subsystem Linux, running ubuntu) if it makes a difference.
Document has lots of math and few graphics.
 
10:21 AM
@DavidCarlisle Somehow I had the impression NAG had something to do with XML or supporting math fonts on the Web. I see now that is wildly incorrect.
@Nasser That seems very slow to me. I've been playing a little bit with LuaTeX, and it seems no different from PDFLaTeX in speed, at least to a first approximation.
 
@Nasser hard to say. in general one pdf likely to be faster to make than lots of small ones, and windows or linux (or the new wsl2) are likely to be faster than wsl1 (or cygwin) for file operations.
@FaheemMitha no it's much slower than pdftex in general.
 
Do you have a lot of math?
@DavidCarlisle It is? Why?
 
@FaheemMitha because dealing with fonts with thousands of characters is slower than dealing with fonts with 256 characters, mostly.
 
@DavidCarlisle Is that a fixed cost, then? I'm not dealing with thousands of characters here.
 
@FaheemMitha are you sure? even if you don't specify any fonts at all the default opentype latin modern font has several hundred characters (nothing like as many as a font for Chinese of course but the mechanisms have to cope)
 
10:28 AM
@DavidCarlisle Well, no, I'm not sure. I don't know what's going on under the hood. But if one is just dealing with the usual Latin alphabet, is it so different?
Regardless, what Nasser is reporting seems very slow to me. Unless it's super math heavy. I've not tried using LuaTeX with math heavy text.
 
@FaheemMitha yes especially on small documents, try time pdflatex sample2e after a few runs i ge
real    0m2.715s
user    0m1.203s
sys     0m0.608s
 
@FaheemMitha Yes, document has lots of math. I can give you a link to the on line PDF if you want. I seem to remember lualatex was faster than this. I was thinking may be I am loading some packages that is slowing things. But hard to know as there is no profiler to lulatex to see where the slow part is.
 
with pdftex and
real    0m5.198s
user    0m1.031s
sys     0m2.171s
with luatex
@FaheemMitha so twice as slow, clock time.
 
@Nasser I thought there was some profiler. But you could try tracing things on the Lua end, at least.
@DavidCarlisle Seeing much more than a 2 fold difference here. But some of that is probably due to fixed startup costs.
@Nasser No, that probably doesn't make sense unless you have significant Lua user code.
A longer document would be a fairer test.
 
@FaheemMitha I looked at all that lua internal tracing before. Way over my head and would not understand the output. I just really wanted to know if about 70 pages per minute seems what other get also or if this seems too slow.
 
10:35 AM
@Nasser It seems pretty slow to me. That's almost a second per page.
 
I see, Ok. I'll try to see what is the slow part then.
 
The only time I was seeing those kinds of timings in my limited experience is when I was using the datatool package.
@Nasser But I haven't tried using LuaTeX with math heavy text, like I said.
@Nasser A basic profiling is not that hard to understand. You just want to get a sense of where it is spending most of its time. There are usually a few hotspots.
If you see something unreasonable, you could report it, if you could work up a reasonable repro recipe.
 
10:48 AM
@FaheemMitha no as I think nasser has thousands of documents rather than one document with thousands of pages
 
11:11 AM
@Nasser I just tried LuaLaTeX on my Airbnb guest guide, around 19 pages of regular text. Very simple - no figures, no TikZ, no math, no special/user Lua code. Around 1.07 sec. With PDFLaTeX, around 0.62 sec.
Have you tried compiling with PDFLaTeX?
@DavidCarlisle I didn't mean super long.
@Nasser How long is an average document?
 
@FaheemMitha thanks for trying. I can't use pdflatex as I use lua functions. This document I have averages 70 pages per minutes. it is 2200 pages. Here it is if you like to see current version 12000.org/my_notes/pde_in_CAS/maple_2019_and_mma_12/index.htm and click on the PDF document at top left corner. I tried to do profiling but I still do not know how. I looked at couple of questions here on profiling, but they do not show what actual commands to use. I need to look at this
 
@Nasser If the code isn't actually private, you could provide it to people to play with.
I can see something like that taking a bit of time to run, but 70 pages a minute still seems slow to me. That's not excessively math heavy. If you have Lua code, that would be the first thing to look at. If it is running during compilation, it's most likely your bottleneck.
Perhaps run the code separately? That would be easier to time. How many lines of Lua do you have, and in how many files?
 
@FaheemMitha sure, but I need to spend time to make it self contained, etc... I'll try to do that sometime as the document uses import to load many other latex files and images, etc...
 
Are you making heavy use of TikZ?
If so, I think pre-making graphics is an option. You don't have to make them anew each time.
 
@FaheemMitha No, I do not use tikz at all. The lua code is just used to read plain source code for formatting actually into the document. Nothing too much there. I need to first learn how to profile the document using lualatex.
 
11:22 AM
@Nasser Oh, you use something else to produce those graphics? Are they pre-made, then?
 
@FaheemMitha Yes. All the images you see in the PDF are pre-generated using IPE and Mathematica. They are in PDF format already.
 
@Nasser I see.
If your Lua code isn't doing a lot, then it's not clear what is taking so much time.
 
@FaheemMitha may be the Linux subsystem under windows 10 is slow. I need to try the same thing on Linux running on its own PC and compare. But now I only have one PC
 
@Nasser Yes, you should do that. Or ask someone else to do it.
 
@FaheemMitha yes, that IPE. I use it for all my graphics, since it allows using latex which is nice. Easier that using Tikz, at least for simple graphics./
 
11:26 AM
@GermanShepherd I’ve been using the ancient slide class along with texpower. But I have also used HTML and a javascript library for presentations, math formulas supported by mathjax. It worked surprisingly well.
 
@Nasser TikZ is a big hit, but I've heard it is slow. How slow, I do not know.
It certainly produces very nice graphics.
 
@FaheemMitha yes, tikz is powerful, but steep learning curve. For basic graphics (squares, circles, lines, etc. with some latex) IPE is much easier for me.
 
@Nasser True, but it's a fixed learning curve. I think it's fairly easy to work with once you know how to use it.
But I hear it's relatively resource-heavy.
 
12:11 PM
Tomorrow will be my last day working for Overleaf. Just thought I let you all know that I'm no longer answering anything on Overleaf's behalf.
 
 
3 hours later…
2:47 PM
@Skillmon I never knew you were working for them
 
3:47 PM
@JosephWright it was part of my profile's description, and I got the job more or less through this chat (thanks to @CarLaTeX), plus it was part of some of my answers and comments.
 
4:32 PM
@Skillmon I hope it has been a good experience :)
 
@GermanShepherd orange on/.list={8,10}
 
4:56 PM
@CarLaTeX it was, best part time job I had up till now.
 
 
1 hour later…
6:17 PM
@Skillmon Happy to hear it :)
 
 
1 hour later…
7:36 PM
@UlrikeFischer I did the last over 2500 pass in the Alps. :-) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbrail_Pass
 
8:00 PM
@egreg Congratulation ^^ ^
 
8:19 PM
@UlrikeFischer Very hot day: only at the top of the pass the temperature was nice.
 
@egreg we were just at a concert in a crypt -- it was quite cool ;-)
 

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