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12:01 AM
I'm likely gonna externalize them because numpy even though not being used or imported is causing issues that should have seemingly been solved by upgrading from 3.6 to 3.6.1, even tho I've 3.7 installed, what a farce
inb4 this wouldn't have happened on linux :D
thanks n g'nite
@vlg Don't get me wrong, but it is probably easier to complain about free software than maintaining or creating it. That is, you may want to refrain from words like farce in this context.
12:55 AM
@marmot I've yet to use it, out of the box it doesn't work with tex, unless the pythontex package is doing something it shouldn't, or that windows is the problem. I'm complaining about a closed, solved issue, that I'd have to go thru hoops to just report. just inconvenient
@vlg Sure, some packages work more smoothly than others. I just want to encourage you to choose your wording in such a way that everyone, including the authors of packages (whom I highly respect), enjoy being in the chat. On the long run, you'll also benefit from this because it will increase your chances getting first-hand answers.
Quick question: why is d indented as such?
@Quintec Without seeing the code that produced it, impossible to tell.
It's literally plaintext
With line breaks at the end
@Quintec Can you paste the fragment here? (And use control-k to format it).
1:08 AM
Actually, it's in this environment:

    \item[\hskip \labelsep {\bfseries #1}\hskip \labelsep {\bfseries #2.}]}{\end{trivlist}}
@Quintec So then not "literally plain text"... So add that environment to a small document, and then the actual text that causes the problem and post that.
Well, I don't remember writing that environment anymore, but I was pretty sure that was just for the title... I'm clearly wrong though
\item[\hskip \labelsep {\bfseries #1}\hskip \labelsep {\bfseries #2.}]}{\end{trivlist}}
a.) How many different committees could be selected with no restrictions?\\
b.) How many different committees could be selected with exactly 3 women?\\
c.) How many different committees could be selected with at least one man?\\
d.) How many different committees could be selected with at least 3 men and at least 2 women?
@Quintec Why are you doing things this way? Why not use a real enumerated list? And you're abusing \\. That's not what it's for.
An enumerated list double-spaces things, and I couldn't figure out how to fix it, lol
I'm treating latex as code-golf, and hacking through... probably not the best idea
@Quintec you just have a single paragraph of text with nothing to say the How should be aligned, so they are not aligned. (you should almost never enumerate by hand or use \\ in latex.
1:17 AM
Yay, I have it saved
\item[\hskip \labelsep {\bfseries #1}\hskip \labelsep {\bfseries #2.}]}{\end{trivlist}}
\begin{problem}{1}(some intro text)
    \item How many different committees could be selected with no restrictions?
    \item How many different committees could be selected with exactly 3 women?
    \item How many different committees could be selected with at least one man?
How can I reduce the line spacing in between items?
@Quintec use enumitem package instead of the otherwise excellent enumerate package and then you can do things like \begin{enumerate}[itemsep=3cm]
Cool, thanks! Can I combine that with the [a.)] I'm using?
@DavidCarlisle What do you mean by "otherwise excellent"? "Works fine except for lists?" ;-)
@Quintec yes well you can specify global settings (which is better than doing it on every list anyway) or something like [itemsep=..,label=\alph*)]
@marmot I shan't take insults from an overgrown squirrel
Sounds great, thanks! I have thought I knew LaTeX for 2 years, but it turns out screenshotting some inline equations and creating a document are whole different things...
1:25 AM
@marmot I wonder how much the code should be changed if the arrows.meta library is added (I can not find the changes to the modifications made by @Skillmon), shortcut https://tex.stackexchange.com/posts/453602/revisions
Last question: After reading ctan.mirrors.hoobly.com/macros/latex/contrib/enumitem/… it seems like there is no way to specify bottomsep or something of the sort?
@Quintec What do you want that to do?
Oops, I was being silly, never mind
@manooooh If you're happy with the result, don't worry about it. Otherwise replace >=latex',-> by -{Latex}. (The syntax >=latex',-> is anyway unnecessarily complicated: ``>=latex'` says " all arrow ends are latex' and -> means "there is an arrow at the target", but since this is in a group, -latex' has the same effect.)
@marmot ok, thanks. Only that?
1:31 AM
@manooooh I think so. Didn't try it out, though. If you want all arrows to be of that type in this picture, just do >={Latex} in the options of the tikzpicture.
@manooooh I just tried and it works...
@marmot yes I want that!... I tried to write arrows./style={>={Latex}},... inside \begin{tikzpicture} but LaTeX does not recognize >={Latex}



,force component/.style={->,draw=gray,fill=gray}
,M/.style={rectangle,draw,fill=lightgray,minimum size=0.5cm,thin}
,ground/.style={black,postaction={ground hatch}}
@marmot anyway, I will have more than 1 diagram. Maybe in the general preamble, what was the code for the tikz options?
@manooooh \tikzset{every picture/.append style={>={Latex}}} ... need to go now
@marmot oh! So it was literal "just do >={Latex} in the options of the tikzpicture." hahaha
1:36 AM
@manooooh Yes.
@marmot yess, thanks! Enjoy
5 hours later…
6:40 AM
@DavidCarlisle I've started looking over the test failure issue. I should probably arrange that l3build prints it's own version in the log in every run. However, by checking the install part of the logs, you can see that none of the failing ones update l3build. So they should all be using the current release, 2018-09-26 (makes sense date-wise too)
7:04 AM
@DavidCarlisle I think I know where the OT1 -> TU changes have come from
@manooooh I used >=Stealth in that specific answer though. The main usage difference between arrows and arrows.meta seems to be different names for arrow tips (and the latter has more predefined tips).
7:29 AM
@DavidCarlisle Hmm, still working out exactly where things are up. My VM is now in track with Travis-CI ...
@JosephWright In some ways I wonder if we should test amsmath with normally configured formats rather than the base test format with its slightly odd font setup, the latter reduces tlg log diffs but the former is what people actually use. I suppose I should have two config setups and do both....
@DavidCarlisle At the moment I'm trying to pin down why I get more failures on my local system than I do on Travis-CI: I suspect it's a file in the full tree that isn't installed on the minimised system
@DavidCarlisle On Travis-CI and my VM, the failures are small and I think related to luaotfload changes. Ill probably fix Travis-CI then work out why I have a local issue ...
@DavidCarlisle They do test using the full tree, but I know what you mean
7:59 AM
Hi all! Earlier today, an upvote on one of my answer postings earned me badge #1024 = 2^{10} on TeX.SE. Not a hugely significant event, for sure, but quite nice all the same. This event is also an occasion to announce that I’m “retiring” from active participation in this group. I might check in from time to time, especially if there’s a query about the selnolig package. But, for the most part, I will be turning to new and hopefully equally rewarding activities. Bye!
@Mico Take care, and have a lot of fun!
@Mico thanks for all your answers so far, I hope that things go well for you.
@Mico As @DavidCarlisle says, I hope all is OK with you: it was good to meet in person in Brazil
@DavidCarlisle Hmm, oddities seem to be sorted for me ... can you check?
@JosephWright I was just running check in amsmath after update to get your two tlg but not looking good so far
Running checks on
  amsldoc-1 (1/22)
          --> failed

  amsldoc-2 (2/22)
          --> failed

  amsldoc-3 (3/22)
          --> failed

  amsldoc-4 (4/22)
@DavidCarlisle Hmm
8:13 AM
that's as far as it's got
let me see what diff is...
@JosephWright looked at first diff same OT1 !=TU
@DavidCarlisle Does the latex suite recreate formats between e.g. base tests and amsmath tests?
@DavidCarlisle My feeling is it's something to do with rebuilding the local formats (as we have tree searching enabled). I've zapped my ~/.texlive2018 and everything in ~/texmf, forced a format rebuild, etc.
@UlrikeFischer @JosephWright oh that's a point it always used to "install dependency base" but when I ran l3build check in amsmath just now it didn't make a format...
@DavidCarlisle The AMS tests have never had that dependency I think
@DavidCarlisle If you look at the raw Travis-CI logs, that never shows up for amsmath
@JosephWright well... the checked in ones all have OT1 encoding so something was making them do that:-)
8:18 AM
@DavidCarlisle I get that!
@JosephWright does something delete formats between the tests?
@UlrikeFischer Yes: we clear up between ever set of tests
@DavidCarlisle For example:
  tnfss1 (54/55)
  tub-38-02-fmi (55/55)

  All checks passed

Running l3build with target "check" for module required/amsmath
Running checks on
  amsldoc-1 (1/22)
  amsldoc-2 (2/22)
  amsldoc-3 (3/22)
  amsldoc-4 (4/22)
  amsldoc-5 (5/22)
@DavidCarlisle I've re-checked again, and everything looks OK having forced format rebuilds on my local system ...
@JosephWright perhaps something changed here. If you previously didn't clear everything and now do, amsmath would use different formats.
@UlrikeFischer Nothing has changed for l3build, the amsmath set up, etc. in this regard: before I rebuilt my local formats, I was getting the strange failures with an older checkout and older l3build: one that passed on Travis-CI
8:44 AM
@JosephWright l3build check in amsmath: All checks passed
@DavidCarlisle Phew!
@DavidCarlisle What did you do?
@JosephWright yes and no... I did l3build install; fmtutil-sys --all in base, first but I shouldn't have to do that should I (and I'm not sure now why that means I get OT1 fonts when testing in amsmath)
@DavidCarlisle I'll remind myself on the latter: like I said, I think something about the babel update went awry with format-building
@JosephWright can you tell me the reason for tex.stackexchange.com/questions/454082/… (just curious)
@Skillmon so we can debug the latex test suite:-)
8:47 AM
@DavidCarlisle Exactly :)
@Skillmon I had to remind myself how to do it, and we didn't have a question on it: seemed reasonable as an entry here
@Skillmon From time to time I spot a missing question: I tend to post them with an answer
@Skillmon For example, I was thinking about posting one about \leavevmode (@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer, ...)
@JosephWright as fallout from the site redesign I'm still using a user CSS file that uses display:none on the ask a question button:-)
@DavidCarlisle :)
@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer What's the luaotfload plan now we are all owners of the 'parent' repo
@JosephWright one of: leave it in Ulrike's area, move back to lualatex or move to latex3, I guess.
@DavidCarlisle Exactly ...
@DavidCarlisle We are in a position to 'clean up' if we go for any of the plans ...
@JosephWright My current plan is to move all real issues to my site and close all issues on the lualatex site so that we know what really must be done. I want to make an update soon which includes the deva improvement. And then I want to work on my talk about tagpdf that I should make in less than three weeks. End of october we can start to think about the future.
9:00 AM
@JosephWright with lualatex/luatexbase just being a frozen archive I suspect that gradually moving everything out of lualatex is best in the end
@JosephWright @DavidCarlisle I was naturally only speaking about luaotfload and lualibs. I don't want the other repos too ;-).
@UlrikeFischer Ah, right: sounds good
@DavidCarlisle All fine with me: like I say, we can at some stage 'clean up' to make this explicit
@DavidCarlisle doodle.com/poll/tqvd7u6be6w5n73i (perhaps @UlrikeFischer too ...)
@UlrikeFischer sure but if it's clear that the lualatex area is more or less frozen then that suggests a path that if anything does find a maintainer it should be moved out of there to wherever the new maintainer wants
@JosephWright oh yes
@DavidCarlisle just leave lualibs and luaotfload for now so that I sort out the issues. For luamplib ask Dohyun Kim, and with the rest do want you want.
Thanks, Joseph! It was good to meet you too at the TUG conference.
9:12 AM
@Mico farewell, Mico!
@UlrikeFischer "do what you want" == leave them there until anyone takes an interest in picking them up:-)
@JosephWright done, there is only one slot that matches with @egreg if that makes it difficult to fit everyone in, I may be able to do 12 on Monday or Tuesday (but I have meetings supposed to finish at 12 but usually run over)
@JosephWright oh well. 14.00 is normally fine for me with the exception of wednesday, next tuesday is unclear and now I have to do some shopping or we won't have something to eat.
@JosephWright engine=/ I'd not seen that:-) It would be better if that was the default if no engine was specified, then you could just do the natural kpsewhich latex.fmt
9:31 AM
Good morning/afternoon/evening/night (depending on your time zone) to everybody. I’m writing this message to discuss an idea that come to my mind reading the following question:
Q: Allowing line break at ',' in inline math mode?

kennytmIn the inline math mode ($...$), if the formula is too long, LaTeX will try to break it on operators, e.g. very long text followed by a very long equation like $a+b+c+d+e+f+g+h+i+j+k+l$ etc may be rendered as very long text followed by a very long equation like a+b+c+d+e+f+g+h+i+ j+k+l etc ...

TeX forbids line breaks at commas inside equation because of idioms like “f(a,b)” or “P=(x,y)”; anyway, there are other idioms (tipically, the enumeration of the elements of a set) where such line breaks are perfectly acceptable.
Why not to add, for example, to the mathtools package a declaration like \allowbreakatcommas (say), so that a user can type something like
Let $\allowbreakatcommas A = \{a, b, c, d, e, f\}$ be a set...
and permit line breaks at commas (with some penalty charged)?
@DavidCarlisle Sorry, but I have lectures. I added a slot on Thursday, anyway.
@GuM possible, but in many ways it's similar to : or | where different uses require different handling and there the syntax uses different names so : or \colon or | or \lvert or mid etc.
@GuM so could just define \comma and use a\comma b\comma ...
@egreg: For that, one could use the \allowbreakatcommas declaration locally, inside a group.
@egreg sure I as just giving Joseph a bit of flexibility, doodle polls don't let yo say "I could make this if it's the only possibility" :-)
@GuM Such cases should be handled carefully, like hyphenation: you generally don't want to have just one item before the break or just one after it. I prefer to get a overfull box and decide.
9:41 AM
@egreg: That’s indeed a problem.
@GuM On the other hand, there are examples of long listings, I believe there are a few of them on the site. @DavidCarlisle and I have already discussed the problem.
@egreg: OK, mine was just a suggestion. But if it has already been discussed…
@GuM vvvv :-)
yesterday, by David Carlisle
@vlg yes more or less, mostly the answers don't change, I just recycle answers that I could have posted to comp.text.tex in 1995.
Oops, I’ve just realized I have addressed one of my previous answer to egreg instead of to @DavidCarlisle!
@GuM actually there are newer possibilities eg I think in luatex you could make , a \mathbin` but locally set the spacing before a \mathbin to zero, but still allowing it to break, then you don't need active character definitions at all
@GuM he steals comments as just as he steals ticks.
9:50 AM
@DavidCarlisle: I too had tought of luatex, but I don’t know in detail how it works… :-(
My XONE is updating... 4GB... :(
@GuM You can do
  \clist_set:Nn \l_tmpa_clist { #1 }
  \clist_use:Nn \l_tmpa_clist { ,\allowbreak }
@GuM You need some setup command anyway, so \setdesc{a,b,c} is as good.
@GuM With more work we can exclude the last two from being split across lines
  \clist_set:Nn \l_tmpa_clist { #1 }
  \clist_use:Nnnn \l_tmpa_clist
   { , } % between two
   { ,\allowbreak } % more than two
   { , } % between the last two
A: Allowing line break at ',' in inline math mode?

David CarlisleIn luatex you have a new possibility that does not involve active characters, you can declare , to be a mathbin (like +) so that line breaking is allowed and then set the mathord-mathbin spacing to zero so it gets no space before, like punctuation: \documentclass{article} \begin{document} $ ...

10:18 AM
@egreg: Yes, it’s a typical application of \clist_use:Nnnn. But wouldn’t it translate a,b,c into a,\allowbreak b, c (which is not that good)?
OK, my recreation is over :-( Goodbye to everybody and thanks for your enjoyable company.
10:38 AM
@GuM You can remove the first item and treat it separately.
2 hours later…
12:14 PM
@UlrikeFischer you will be impressed by my German
@DavidCarlisle ?
@UlrikeFischer labboode.pdf github.com/latex-labbook/labbook
@DavidCarlisle oh. your next orphan?
@UlrikeFischer I've just sent an email asking if it is orphaned (@daleif located a contact email)
@DavidCarlisle I just sent another message to the context list. For someone not using it, I'm finding quite often bugs.
12:22 PM
@UlrikeFischer for some reason @JosephWright and I would not be surprised, there doesn't appear to be any testing apart from the latex tests than we can see in luatex, don't know so much about context but...
@Mico I'm sorry to hear that you're stepping back from the site, but have fun with whatever replaces it. :)
Theoretically, would setting a box and putting an arg in then testing \ifdim\wd0=\z@ to see if arg is blank/empty be faster than a, say, \ifblank{arg}{T}{F} from etoolbox, or the plain \ifx- comparing with sth defined as a space or sth
12:54 PM
@vlg no (also it doesn't really work) but I'd just use \if\relax\detokenize{#1}\relax
@DavidCarlisle ;-). There must be some testing but it is naturally difficult if you explicitly assume that things will change anyway. But regarding testing, I see that Joseph blames babel?
@UlrikeFischer that's one possibility I don't think its clear yet and the tests pass here now (now I have installed latex from base), so the test suite isn't as isolated from the installed system as it should be
@UlrikeFischer I think it was a format rebuild being required but not getting triggered
1:11 PM
@JosephWright do we need something in the amsmath build.lua to force that?
@DavidCarlisle It's running with searching enabled, which means it' using the system format: that's out of our control ...
@DavidCarlisle I'll see if I can track down why we get the font loading issue
@JosephWright if I use my installed lualatex (installed from base) and simply do lualatex amsldoc-1 it uses TU encoded text (and would fail) but if I go l3build check it doesn't seem to make a format but lualatex.fmt appears in build/test from somewhere and the tests use OT1 encoded text (and pass)
@DavidCarlisle Hmm, I think I might know what needs to be done
@JosephWright actually there are so many differences in amsmath for unicode, that I wouldn't mind if it always used the installed format and do a on-off hit to update the tlg, as long as it's consistent whether it uses the installed one or the one used for base:-)
@DavidCarlisle I'm just pondering things: give me a second
1:27 PM
@JosephWright no rush (I'm trying to steal xcite back from @egreg)
@DavidCarlisle I'm not sure why the amsmath tests can't be run isolated ... give me a few minutes
2:25 PM
@JosephWright As I say I don't mind splitting them, but is it clear what's changed and why they started failing?
@DavidCarlisle I've not pinned it down 100% yet. I think it was a mismatch between files in the tree from babel (updated) and the format file (built in isolation), but I'm still not 100%
@JosephWright doesn't matter too much I suppose so long as we have a stable setup going forward
@DavidCarlisle Sure, though I would still like to track it down
@JosephWright I looked a bit in the build folders. I guess that the formats are build in local and then moved to the test folder. In the local folder I have xelatex and a lualatex format. The time of the files looks ok - all from the time of the failing amsmath tests - but the fonttext.cfg is cleary the "normal" untweaked one.
@JosephWright sorry just saw that I wrote nonsense: the formats are older than the failing amsmath tests.
3:02 PM
@UlrikeFischer, @DavidCarlisle I'm trying something ...
3:58 PM
@Skillmon 👍 👍
@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer Hmm, still haven't tracked it down. I'm sure it's to do with format building, but at the moment I'm not really keen on spending more time on it
@DavidCarlisle Are you busy on the 17th of next month?
@JosephWright don't think so. uktug?
@JosephWright any thoughts on PR 83? :-)
@DavidCarlisle Yup
@DavidCarlisle Seemed OK to me from a very short look
@DavidCarlisle Non-Oxford plan hasn't come off ...
@DavidCarlisle Fancy being Chair? ;)
@JosephWright the pr or my comment on it
@JosephWright no
@DavidCarlisle PR: will look at your comment
@DavidCarlisle :)
4:09 PM
@JosephWright not unless there are other committee changes
@DavidCarlisle I can imagine ...
@DavidCarlisle ... although in practice it's a one-man committee ;)
@JosephWright perhaps that's what I was referring to:-)
@DavidCarlisle Fair point
@DavidCarlisle I see your point: it's not like there is a lot do to here. It would be different for an expl3 implementation
Has everyone seen tug.org/tug2019? Planning ahead ...
4:47 PM
I'm getting a strange result, whereby a counter gets increase by one more than it should if I use a) rather than b). Before trying to make a mwe, wanted to ask here. a) is
b) is
\divide\count0 by\p@
5:02 PM
@vlg \divide truncates, \dimexpr division rounds
5:16 PM
@JosephWright as I told @vlg yesterday:-)
5:37 PM
Sorry, I misunderstood that both truncate, and didn't test thoroughly so it wasn't apparent. I'll go sacrifice a goat to appease @DavidCarlisle
@vlg better to sacrifice a duck
@DavidCarlisle /Quacks in despair
6:11 PM
@DavidCarlisle WHAT!?!?!
6:30 PM
Hey all!
Does the order of precedence of superscripts and subscripts matter? i.e. is there any difference between $a^b_c$ and $a_c^b$??
@DavidCarlisle oh no...
Peking duck it is!
@manooooh Nope, or at least not if they have the primitive TeX meaning
@JosephWright thanks! Primitive TeX = LaTeX = MathJax?
@manooooh As in \catcode 7/\catcode 8, rather than say being picked up as macro arguments ...
@JosephWright oh, oki! Is it advisable to write it in one way or another, or does it matter? For example, if we want to show the LaTeX code of $f'_x(0,0)$ I don't know if it is better to show $f_x'(0,0)$. Can you recommend something?
6:41 PM
@manooooh There is no difference for standard TeX set ups ...
@manooooh I follow syntactial meaning. Usually, $x_1^2$ is "the square of ex one" so I prefer this over $x^2_1$.
@manooooh For that, I certainly consider more legible (i.e., easier to parse code by eyes) to write $f_x'$
@boycott.se-yo' Sure, but it's not a technical thing
@JosephWright that was my first question! and as @boycott.se-yo' said, that was my second question. Yes, now I see why $f_x'$ is more legible than $f'_x$... but strangely I wrote it backwards... Maybe because the key combination I use to write ^ is closer to my fingers than _ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@JosephWright no it's not, it's purely semantics
6:57 PM
Wow, I was amazed with the usefulness of manim... Does anyone use it? How is your experience?
Oh, so now I just spent some minutes not understanding that -x**2 in MetaPost/MetaFun was interpreted as (-x)^2 and not the intended -(x^2). Hip hooray.
@mickep hooray!
@DavidCarlisle, @egreg, @UlrikeFischer I decided to post my \leavevmode question:
A: Does \leavevmode leave any tokens in the input stream

Joseph WrightWhen the standard \leavemode is executed in vertical mode, the \unhbox primitive switches TeX to horizontal mode. The \unhbox token remains in the input stream at that point. This can be seen if we arrange to grab the first token in a paragraph using \everypar: \def\temp#1{\def\temp{#1}\show\tem...

(I'm rep-capped already, so a second self-answered question seemed fair)
You know you're asking for trouble when abnt meets bidi. :)
@AlanMunn Sounds about right
7:10 PM
@JosephWright Two packages that probably never in a million years envisioned would be used together.
@AlanMunn Sounds right: not that many Arabic or Hebrew (or ...) theses submitted in Brazil, one one imagine
@JosephWright Is it OK to ask you a question here? If not, please just ignore the following. Question: is it possible to "shift up" a definition by one level? What I mean by this is something that makes a definition available just outside a group, but not global: \brgoup\bgroup\sgdef\X{1}\egroup\X\egroup should work but \brgoup\bgroup\sgdef\X{1}\egroup\egroup\X not because \X is now two levels outside.
@marmot \begingroup\def\foo{a}\expandafter\endgroup\expandafter\def\expandafter\foo\exp‌​andafter{\foo}
@JosephWright Thanks! (is there a command for that like \sgdef (semi global define)?
@marmot With expl3: \group_begin: \tl_set:Nn \l_tmpa_tl { a } \exp_args:NNNV \group_end: \tl_set:Nn \l_tmpa_tl \l_tmpa_tl
@marmot One can set up a helper, for example in pgf they have \pgfmath@smuggleone (I think)
7:14 PM
@JosephWright Yes, that's what I also thought this smuggle thing does. Good, now at least two users think so. ;-)
7:37 PM
@marmot If I remember correctly pgf also defines a helper macro to do that, Oh @JosephWright just mentioned it
@DavidCarlisle :)
@DavidCarlisle (number of users who think to know what \pgfmath@smuggleone does)++
@marmot it's a shame I got a chance to show my extensive gold badge knowledge, only to notice Joseph got there first.
@DavidCarlisle :)
Yes, a real shame. Probably eating ducks has serious side-effects. ;-)
BTW, do you know the reason why someone may want to "protect" such helpers by using a @ in their name? (I always thought the @ is to prevent unintended abuse, but I can't see why this one is dangerous.)
7:47 PM
@marmot By long-standing convention, stuff that is internal to a package is marked up as such
@marmot Some packages differentiate between user-level and code-level interfaces: the LaTeX kernel also does (see \@firstoftwo, for example)
@marmot as Joseph says just general package namespacing good practice to use some \prefix@ convention.
@JosephWright Well, sure, but why is it internal? (And yes, I also do not understand why \@firstoftwo is protected, but not, say, \loop.)
@marmot \loop comes from plain (or at least the name does) it would have been \l@@p in latex (like \@for)
@DavidCarlisle but according to this it should have been \f@r.
@marmot It's not a document command ...
7:51 PM
What I mean to say is that with \loop you can make your compiler seem to be hibernating, which is harder with \@firstoftwo. All this seems to suggest that "locking these macros away from inexperienced users" is not the main reason.
@Skillmon actually it might have been \@loop in the kernel @@ prefixed commands are usually saved primitives, @ prefixed ones are more or less package interface commands and vowels-replaced-by-@ are lower level things, but the boundaries are blurred
@DavidCarlisle I see. It should be \marm@t then. ;-)
A: Macro naming best practice?

David CarlisleLaTeX does try to encourage a naming scheme Document level commands (\section) lowercase. Package interface commands (\DeclareTextCommandDefault) CamelCase. Package or kernel internal commands (\@text@composite@) lower@case@with@. TeX primitives (\expandafter) lowercase. Mostly this convent...

@marmot and \m@rmot if you need an@ther @ne :)
@DavidCarlisle I think you are just saying this because \Skillm@n and \J@seph works, but you need a justification for \@DavidCarlisle
7:55 PM
@marmot for him you need \M@kesPackagesWithFeaturesOnly
@marmot I would be \DavidCarlisle they don't hide me away
@DavidCarlisle But I guess this will be the most dangerous macro of them all...
@marmot \outer
@JosephWright What does that do?
@marmot Cause problems ...
7:56 PM
@JosephWright Is it written by @DavidCarlisle, then? ;-)
@marmot DEK
@egreg didn't occur to me to look in a manual! — David Carlisle 48 secs ago
What a strange case! ^^^^^^^^
\outer is the most useless, annoying, "feature" in the whole TeX language. — David Carlisle Sep 12 at 8:27
@egreg but I get the right answer anyway (as you confirmed)
@JosephWright \outer might be very useful with groups, at least the so-called outer automorphisms are very important in physics....
@marmot You've clearly never suffered from \outer ...
8:00 PM
After looking up its definition: texdef \outer


I know everything about it :-(
@marmot texdoc texbytopic
What's the difference between having the last row of table be appended by '\\' and not?
@vlg two backslashes
@marmot try \outer\def\foo{eat pineapple pizza} and try to use that command in any definition...
@vlg nothing
@JosephWright Oh wow, now I know why you guys know so much. ;-)
8:03 PM
@DavidCarlisle, you said I shouldn't put a \\ in my command to append rows to a table, why was it? something about the last row not being correct? My rows are correct, so it was sth else
@DavidCarlisle I think my answer "two backslashes" is more accurate ;-)
@vlg you were adding \\ before you knew what was coming next which means that you could not have a \multicolumn in the first cell because your testing got in the way, you should do the tests before the \\
@JosephWright This manual makes things very boring. Now I no longer have to guess what these commands do. ;-)
^^^^^^^^ Can someone explain what happened?
@marmot I'm surprised that a marmot thinks that way \\ is just the surface syntax, lower down there is no difference.
@manooooh people don't like spam
8:06 PM
Someone had 3 eyes
@DavidCarlisle Well, but you have to agree that there is a difference: in one version, there are two backslashes in the code and in the other these are not there.
@DavidCarlisle yeah I know, but how does that question have more votes than views?
@manooooh just timing I think, votes get registered more or less straight away but i think view counts only periodically
@manooooh Simple explanation: some vote without viewing. ;-)
You could just cover your eyes and only vote.
Why are minipages trying so hard to change spacing when combined with theorems and/or equations :(
8:08 PM
@DavidCarlisle Uhm, I remember some questions I made on math.SE and these get views so fast (when using calculus, limits, etc. important tags)
@marmot ahá, the genius appears! How would you do to vote with your eyes closed without making mistakes pointing the cursor correctly? Only geniuses can do that!
@Shakaja minipages don't do anything to the space outside them, they do normalise \parskip inside the environment.
@manooooh necessary skill for living in a burrow.
@DavidCarlisle that makes sense for me.
@marmot Oh, you'd think so ... try with XeTeX ;)
@JosephWright not to mention luatex
@DavidCarlisle Oh, that ...
8:18 PM
@manooooh Our burrow is pitch dark, but I have whiskers for that. ;-)
@DavidCarlisle Crystal ball required
@DavidCarlisle @JosephWright Yes, I know, @UlrikeFischer asked me to draw a diagram. After was done with that, I realized how much I love the duality net of M-theory. ;-)
@marmot hahaha
@marmot ^^^^^^^^ like these?
@manooooh Are they long enough? ;-)
@marmot nope, but more longer than usual :P
8:26 PM
@JosephWright mine got stolen
@marmot that was a pgf fake anyway, have the real thing \put(0,0){\circle{10}}
@DavidCarlisle Can you use it to win the lottery?
@marmot yes
@DavidCarlisle Oh, wow. Why don't you go ahead, win a fortune and then donate to marmots.org/how-you-can-help/donate-now
@marmot steps one and two done. I am not sure about step 3.
8:35 PM
@DavidCarlisle How could you have the slightest doubt about this step?
@marmot I don't trust squirrels
@manooooh I guess that there's a lag between the “views counter” and the “votes counter”. Anyway, this one might have been set a record: closed and gone in two minutes.
@DavidCarlisle But why not? We do not cheat in elections, and no one ever got shot by a marmot.
8:59 PM
@DavidCarlisle so they mess up the spacing of the things inside and that translates to the outside spacing?
@Shakaja without an example impossible to guess what you mean. Obviously they are not designed to mess up anything. by design they provide a normalised setup so that a minipage inside math or in a list has some standard context that does not inherit from outside, that is the whole point of the environment.
@DavidCarlisle "without an example impossible to guess what you mean" How is that consistent with your statement on the crystal ball?
@marmot I try to restrict use of such powers to amassing personal wealth by cheating at lotteries.
@DavidCarlisle Does that restriction have to do with picture mode?
@DavidCarlisle On purely semantic grounds it seems that 'impossible to guess' can't be true. It's always possible to guess, just impossible to guess with any hope of being correct. #linguistmusings
9:08 PM
@DavidCarlisle I'm using minipages mainly to have for example text and graphs next to each other. However when this includes theorems or ending on equations, it messes up my spacing. I tried various fixes for this (mostly from your answers to other similar questions), but cant get it to a point, where its consistent.
@Shakaja As I say impossible to guess. Make a small but complete document that shows the issue you have and post a question on the main site.
Who invited a linguist to this chat room?
@DavidCarlisle I thought you were for freedom of movement.
@AlanMunn new policy suggested by our leaders: have cake and eating it while cherry picking policies
@DavidCarlisle Ah right. Too bad the cake's cakes imaginary.
@JosephWright sorry, I wanted to answer in the afternoon but got side tracked ;-). Beside this: I'm the one importing all the dangerous new code from context so won't object about a bit etex ;-).
@marmot you did realize that the text of the marmot is a quote?
9:18 PM
@UlrikeFischer Don't worry: I'm well-known as the ConTeXt mole on the team :)
@UlrikeFischer I did. ;-) And thanks for healing the tail. ;-)
9:28 PM
@PauloCereda seen any Women's football recently?

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