TeX, LaTeX and Friends - 2017-05-07 (page 1 of 2)

12:17 AM

@DavidCarlisle Does that help?

@DavidCarlisle Mine looks rather like that right now because I was, of course, certain that something was adding the space ....

ShreevatsaR

12:48 AM

For those who can see deleted answers: wondering why this was deleted? tex.stackexchange.com/questions/226999/… (IMO we can close the question as offtopic because it's asking about installing fonts, but the deleted answer precisely did answer the question asked.)

ebo

1:10 AM

@cfr thanks, it works great!

Gustavo Mezzetti

@egreg Spaghetti alla carbonara with cream?! But who on earth…

3

cfr

1:31 AM

@ShreevatsaR I don't think the question is off-topic and I don't see any reason it should be closed unless it is a duplicate. The answer is not very good, although I'm not sure it deserved to be deleted. It should really be a comment. The question clearly thinks this is a TeX question and a good answer, IMNSHO, would explain the difference between the ways different engines use fonts and what that means for finding, managing and installing them. (Or at least point in the right directions.)

ShreevatsaR

@cfr Yes I agree with you. :-) (Only noticed this one because it showed up as "Related question" when I was looking at something else.)

CarLaTeX

3:42 AM

@GustavoMezzetti The Americans, of course! And they dare call it Italian food hahaha

cfr

5:01 AM

! Undefined control sequence.
\dpthimport ->\ExplSyntaxOn \tl
                                _gclear_new:c {g_hobby_achos2_path}\tl _gput...
l.635 ...641771023086}}\ExplSyntaxOff }\dpthimport
                                                  ^^M
?
! Missing $ inserted.
<inserted text>
                $

^^ Anybody have any ideas about this? I'm confused about why it appears to not be reading the macro as expl3 despite apparently having just read \ExplSyntaxOn.

Ulrike Fischer

7:03 AM

@cfr you are too late, the argument has already been read and the catcode is frozen.

ShreevatsaR

7:25 AM

in other words (just guessing): you can't do something like
\newcommand{\dpthimport}{\ExplSyntaxOn \tl_gclear_new:c ...}
though you can do
\ExplSyntaxOn \newcommand{\dpthimport}{\tl_gclear_new:c ...}

David Carlisle

7:42 AM

@cfr it helped me, but Symbol was a bit quicker:-)

Johannes_B

0

Q: Insert name top rigth memoir

How can I insert name in every page of on the top right document \documentclass[11pt,a4paper,oldfontcommands]{memoir} ? I have tried this: \usepackage{scrpage2} \pagestyle{scrheadings} \ohead{my name} but this is not working.

Any suggestions?

David Carlisle

@ShreevatsaR It was deleted for "does not answer the question" by 5 people. Do you want me to vote to undelete?

ShreevatsaR

@DavidCarlisle No I think it's fine to leave it as it is (it's not such a great answer anyway and just duplicates what is already in the comments); I was just curious why multiple thought it "does not answer the question". I guess... those words are just a proxy for "this is a bad answer". Or maybe it looked like an ad of some sort.

David Carlisle

@ShreevatsaR well I've already voted undelete anyway, might make some people think twice about voting answers delete just because "community" flags it as possibly low quality:-)

@cfr \ExplSyntaxOn is like \makeatletter or \verb and ca't be used in the argument of a command

ShreevatsaR

@DavidCarlisle guess there may be a "bandwagon" or "confirmation bias" effect: once someone else has voted one way, we tend to agree and go along :-)

Moriambar

8:49 AM

I get the feeling I'm not programming with TeX the right way… is there a right way?

Christian Hupfer

@Moriambar Just \relax ;-)

2

Moriambar

@ChristianHupfer -.- :P

the error messages are sooo useful :)

Christian Hupfer

@Moriambar Blame Leslie Lamport and other guys ;-)

Moriambar

@ChristianHupfer the l3 guys you mean? :)

Joseph Wright

@Moriambar TeX's a macro expansion language: the errors available are different from those of procedural approaches

Christian Hupfer

8:56 AM

@Moriambar Oh, you meant L3 ... yes some other guys , but I will give no names here @JosephWright @DavidCarlisle ;-)

Moriambar

@JosephWright yup. TeX programming is not for me. I'm not able to be efficient, either there's something I do wrong, or perhaps I simply cannot look at it from the correct perspective

as long as I finish this part of the package, I'd better stick with being the "end-user"

Joseph Wright

@Moriambar There's a reason the LaTeX team have created expl3 ;) Also if you are willing to go LuaTeX-onlythen you can use Lua of course

Moriambar

@JosephWright well I use only expl3 but the message fail me anyway. Expl3 is fantastic but still I find myself not efficient, I think I'm losing much much time. I think I will try and go full lua.

Christian Hupfer

@Moriambar So you want to be another victim of Lua? :-(

Moriambar

@ChristianHupfer I'm currently a victim of improper alphabetic constant

Christian Hupfer

9:06 AM

@Moriambar I was not victim of that yet

Johannes_B

0

Q: Call of a package in general. Access and visibility of stylefiles

i.e. the moderncv-package has several sty-files (i.e. moderncvbodyi.sty). Apparently, I can not call \usepackage{moderncvbodyi} from another document than a moderncv-document. This means, that the visibility of moderncvbodyi is limited to moderncv.cls. The basic question is: What defines the acc...

package-writing ctan

The claims in the comments are confusing. But the question seems clear enough to answer. Any takers?

kan

I am really quite hungry and have NOTHING in my pantry :(

And its Sunday here

Moriambar

@ChristianHupfer lucky man! Anyway I've been using LuaLaTeX only for quite a bit.

David Carlisle

@Moriambar so you have `\zzz instead of `a

@kan @PauloCereda recommends duck

Moriambar

@DavidCarlisle it was a bit more complex than that. The real problem was that the error was far away from where I was looking

kan

9:15 AM

@DavidCarlisle Fan, especially when BBQ-ed.

David Carlisle

@Moriambar well no that is exactly the error although of course there could be an error earlier which is why tex got to that state.

Moriambar

@DavidCarlisle thanks anyway

@DavidCarlisle yes an expl3 function with nnnn signature was called only with three parameters

David Carlisle

@Moriambar TeX errors seem a lot more reasonable if you think about them from TeX's perspective not from yours:-)

5

Moriambar

@DavidCarlisle well of course. That's what I meant when I said that I'm being inefficient and probably that I'm not looking the things from the right angle

@DavidCarlisle also I find it difficult to understand the TeX perspective, especially through expl3

David Carlisle

@Moriambar rather than wonder why tex gives an error about badly formed numeric literals because you omitted one argument to a function, think of it as tex helpfully telling you that you have constructed a badly formed numeric literal then work back from there and (hopefully) realize that an argument was missing and (presumably) some quote was picked up and used in the wrong context.

Johannes_B

9:23 AM

@JosephWright Creating macro for double-Sig rune (SS)? What to do with that one?

Moriambar

@DavidCarlisle well the problem is that all arguments were numbers and the first thing I thought was that the function itself was doing something wrong, then I worked back and forth on local and global evaluations of fp_eval:n{round(\l_tmp_fp,3)} thinking that it was the "round" part that couldn't be passed as an argument. Then, by chance, via strategic comments I found out that in one case it was trying to parse \bottomrule.

I thought that nnnn meant that there was some kind of brace control for parameters

Joseph Wright

@Moriambar Yup: there are four of them

Moriambar

@JosephWright yes but I was calling \zzz:nnnn{1}{2}{3} and the error was not about the missing parameter but about something else

Joseph Wright

@Johannes_B OT? Really about creating a font, no?

@Moriambar Well yes that would be an issue

Johannes_B

@JosephWright One could do this with TikZ. But i don't like the symbol. It was banned here a while ago :-)

Moriambar

9:28 AM

@JosephWright What I meant was I thought ->improper alphabetic constant ≠ you jackass missed to call the function with all the parameters. I could've expected the "improper…" if it was an N parameter.

But of course it's not that way :)

@Johannes_B it's also used in KISS (the rock'n'roll band) logo

Joseph Wright

@Moriambar But of course you didn't: TeX simply looks for 'balanced text'

Johannes_B

@Moriambar True that :-)

Moriambar

@JosephWright yes, as I said: TeX/expl programming is not for me.

I'll revert to the "end-user" status soon enough :)

@Johannes_B are they banned in Germany?

Johannes_B

@Moriambar I don't think so.

Moriambar

@Johannes_B I know that Wolfenstein 3d was banned for having the nazi runes and whatnot (even if you were fighting them)

Christian Hupfer

9:34 AM

@Johannes_B There's no need to write the SS runes, in my point of view

egreg

@Johannes_B Provided a CW answer. No image.

Christian Hupfer

@Moriambar Of course they are banned, as is the Nazi cross.

Moriambar

@ChristianHupfer so KISS are banned?

Christian Hupfer

@Moriambar I know that KISS uses them, but I am unsure whether they were allowed to show that logo on tour in Germany

Moriambar

@ChristianHupfer that's what I was asking, thanks ;)

Johannes_B

9:36 AM

@egreg Thanks.

Christian Hupfer

@Moriambar: There's even a ban on car number plates: There are no district abbreviations with SS or SA

Moriambar

@ChristianHupfer oh, ok

Christian Hupfer

This is allowed ... The flag of the Front of German Apples, an organisation to spoof and mock nazi parties

Johannes_B

0

Q: llncs computer science format

I'm trying to convert a paper of mine to the LNCS computer science style outlined by springer. I'm struggling on how to do this, i must state i'm not really well versed in the subtleties of latex. So far i tried changing the documentclass from {article} to {llncs} all this did was stop showing my...

formatting templates lncs

Takers?

Moriambar

@ChristianHupfer lol. But this means that red flags with white round centers and black symbols in them could be not allowed (even if they're not nazi)?

Johannes_B

9:42 AM

@ChristianHupfer Never heard of them before.

Christian Hupfer

@Moriambar They are allowed as long as there is no nazi symbol in it. You may fortunately not show any Nazi symbol in public, i.e. in the streets.

Front Deutscher Äpfel

The Front Deutscher Äpfel (short F.D.Ä.; German for Front of German Apples), also called Apfelfront (Apple Front) is a satirical organisation, founded in Leipzig in 2004. It satirizes right extremist parties, especially the Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschlands (NPD). In the style of former and existing right extremist organisational structures it is subdivided into numerous sub-groups like the youth organisation Nationales Frischobst Deutschland (NFD; National Fresh Fruit of Germany), the women's organisation Bund weicher Birnen (B.W.B.; League of Soft Pears, compare League of German Girls...

David Carlisle

@Johannes_B I could make my comment an answer, not sure there is a lot else to be said in that generality, or close as unclear?

@egreg of course no cream, everyone knows it's best with yoghurt.

egreg

@DavidCarlisle Very sour, of course

Johannes_B

@DavidCarlisle Too broad? There is no real answer but, as daleif said, rewrite.

David Carlisle

@Johannes_B its a year old so OP probably doesn't want an answer anyway now, I voted too broad

Johannes_B

9:55 AM

@DavidCarlisle Alright, thanks.

Johannes_B

10:12 AM

Anybody up for closing References in bibtex don't work as duplicate?

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle you are mean

TeXnician

@Johannes_B Yeah, voted for it.

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle @egreg well I mix the eggs with some cream in my carbonara sauce, imho it makes it smoother and I like this. But I call it \__uf_spaghetti_carbonara_sauce: so I don't think it interferes with other modules ... and I would never dare to call it italian.

5

egreg

10:46 AM

@UlrikeFischer A couple of spoons of the cooking water do better

Ulrike Fischer

11:08 AM

@egreg a bit of boiling water gives an exquisite taste to everything ;-)

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer :)

Paulo Cereda

@UlrikeFischer I... don't understand French. :(

It's about olive oil and boiling water, I guess...

I have exact one week for my trip, I am so nervous!

Ulrike Fischer

@PauloCereda The left (british!) woman says, what I wrote below the picture: That she thinks, that adding boiling water gives an exquisite taste to everything ;-). The right (spanish) that she does all her cooking with olive oil.

Paulo Cereda

@UlrikeFischer ooh

TeXnician

-2

A: TDS Problem - Root Direction / My Folder: C:\tex - Should work?

Are u really sure this s*** is better than MSWord?

@JosephWright Something for you ^^?

Joseph Wright

11:21 AM

@TeXnician Removed

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright Oh it was you. I just wondered why my delete vote made it disappear ;-)

Moriambar

@UlrikeFischer A German who posts to an Italian a French comic about a Spanish and a British? This is superb!

5

barbara beeton

@Moriambar -- in your edit to this question you moved the closing parenthesis too far to the right. the final period (definitely) belongs outside. (i'm not really sure the parenthesis should have been moved at all, but only the op can say that for sure.)

Moriambar

@barbarabeeton Right, I may have been careless, sorry, I'll revert to what it was before and ask about it to OP

Joseph Wright

11:40 AM

@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer I think the XeTeX business should work with

\def\Gscale@start%
  {%
     \special{x:gsave}%
     \special{pdf:btrans matrix \Gscale@x\space 0.0 0.0 \Gscale@y\space 0 0}%
  }
\def\Gscale@end%
  {%
    \special{pdf:etrans}%
    \special {x:gsave}%
  }

which is a minimal change from what we have now: can you check?

@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer Assuming it is, I'll adjust xetex.def and the expl3 driver and send to CTAN

David Carlisle

@JosephWright ah using btrans rather than literal pdf cm so the driver knows the coordinate change? Will test now...

@JosephWright and dvipdfmx.def as well I guess

@JosephWright seems to work with the tests I had yesterday, thanks

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Yes

@DavidCarlisle Cool: seems to be OK here and still avoids using the non-invertable matrix approach

@DavidCarlisle I'll commit later on

Ulrike Fischer

11:57 AM

@JosephWright @DavidCarlisle: I get the wrong output in the \infinitesquares question. Does it work for you with the new code?

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer I was just thinking I should test that as well

Ulrike Fischer

:37231024 Ah no. Will have to add this.

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer actually it's using resizebox testing now...

@JosephWright @UlrikeFischer's right that blows up the small scale example again :(

from tex.stackexchange.com/questions/328825/…

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright what are the changes for the expl3 drivers? I'm not quite sure how to translate them

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer I was wrong (I mis-read my own answer) the scaling there is using xetex.def

Ulrike Fischer

12:10 PM

@DavidCarlisle But the l3xdvipdfmx-driver is read so for the tests it would be better if both are correct/doing the same thing.

David Carlisle

@JosephWright @UlrikeFischer if you add \ifnum\dimexpr\Gscale@x pt\relax=0 \OOOPS\fi you find the scale factor is zero if you use tex arithmetic which is I guess what is happening here. It might be enough to use btrans normally but detect this case and use literal pdf for stupidly small scale factors ?

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Ah, that was what worried me, but I couldn't remember what the example is

@DavidCarlisle That can't be right: the change to using the PDF literal still uses \Gscale@x

David Carlisle

@JosephWright yes but it passes the string 0.0000001 to pdf which uses higher precision arithmetic so it isn't zero there

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle I'm confused!

David Carlisle

@JosephWright \Gscale@x isn't 0 it just underflows if you use it as tex pt units using tex arithmetic

@JosephWright in the above Gscale@x ends up being 0.000006615914435153441

@JosephWright so if you pass that to pdf in a cm matrix it survives but if you do the arithmetic in tex (or a tex-like driver) starting out with \dimen0=0.000006615914435153441pt to hold the float then \dimen0 is 0pt and things go bad

Joseph Wright

12:25 PM

@DavidCarlisle So the (x)dvipdfmx driver is doing something odd with the value?

David Carlisle

@JosephWright just using tex or single precision arithmetic instead of double. (but even with double you are only really avoiding an error the actual result must be all rounding error)

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle I'd have to check, but I'd assume that the PDF-based specials use a double (seems logical)

@DavidCarlisle We seem to have something of an impasse: the hyperlink code can't know that there is a scaling, and so only the driver-native scaling code can get the position right, but that means we can't reliably use small scales

David Carlisle

@JosephWright possibly allow that on input but clearly the driver is underflowing somewhere, even with double it will underflow in the end, I wonder if the graphics package ought to refuse to let the scale factor go less than (say) 0.00001 and just set it to that

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer I guess on balance we have to take that: broken hyperlinks in all scaling cases are worse than broken scaling in edge cases

@DavidCarlisle Would be a reasonable position

David Carlisle

@JosephWright yes but does anyone really need to scale a hyperlink by 0.000006? as i say we could drop to using cm for small scales or just refuse to allow the scale factor to be that small

Joseph Wright

12:31 PM

@DavidCarlisle We can at least document that with a reason: 'Not all drivers can reliably scale below <factor>'

@DavidCarlisle Both reasonable approaches: I guess I favour point-blank refusing on the grounds there may be other 'nasties' lurking in the drivers in this regard (basically say 'all values need to be 'TeX-like')

David Carlisle

@JosephWright yes adds a bit of complication as you need to allow negative, and test x and y separately. But for 2e, do it in graphics rather than the driver?

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Yes, I think in graphics is best: we can then be consistent across engines (I wonder how dvips works in some of these edge cases, in addition to (x)dvipdfmx)

@DavidCarlisle I'll adjust the expl3 code shortly

David Carlisle

@JosephWright probably gets out by luck, even if the matrix is not invertible (eg \scalebox{0}{zzz} it will work in some drivers if they use some kind of grouping to restore the coordinates at the end, if you try to scale the text and then restore by scaling by the inverse things are not so good.

cfr

1:08 PM

@DavidCarlisle So I'm looking for somewhere where \ExplSyntaxOn occurs inside the definition of a macro?

Joseph Wright

@cfr Yes

James Bond

@JosephWright I have always been confused by dvipdf, dvipdfm, and dvipdfmx.

Joseph Wright

@JamesBond dvipdfmx is the only important one nowadays

@JamesBond Caveat: for actually writing driver code you need the manual for dvipdfm too :)

James Bond

It appears that pgf has stopped expanding its features for now.

David Carlisle

@cfr you posted a log showing that

@JosephWright xdvipdfmx

James Bond

1:12 PM

Anyway, I think for the near future I won't need anything other than pdflatex. =)

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Yes, I know: I meant of the set dvipdf, dvipdfm, dvipdfmx

David Carlisle

@cfr I don't know the context but you showed

\dpthimport ->\ExplSyntaxOn \tl
                                _gclear_new:c {g_hobby_achos2_path}\tl _gput...
l.635 ...641771023086}}\ExplSyntaxOff }\dpthimport

cfr

@DavidCarlisle I posted a log showing that to others. It didn't show that to me.

@DavidCarlisle So something like

\def \dpthimport {\ExplSyntaxOn \tl _gclear_new:c {g_hobby_achos2_path}\

David Carlisle

@cfr which means that \dpthimport has \ExplSyntaxOn in its definition

@cfr that won't do anything useful

egreg

@cfr The problem is similar to \def\foo{\makeatletter\@foo\makeatother}

David Carlisle

1:14 PM

@egreg and my exact wording was:

cfr

@DavidCarlisle It is from the .aux. I can't get rid of it directly.

egreg

Instead of \makeatletter\def\foo{\@foo}\makeatother

James Bond

So far I have not found a single spelling mistake on tug.org. I think people interested in typography care about spelling too. =)

David Carlisle

5 hours ago, by David Carlisle

@cfr \ExplSyntaxOn is like \makeatletter or \verb and ca't be used in the argument of a command

@egreg ^^

egreg

@DavidCarlisle Well, not completely true. ;-)

David Carlisle

1:15 PM

don't tell @JamesBond that I can't spell can't

@egreg shhh.

James Bond

@egreg Carbonara is my favourite Italian food. But I don't know whether mine has cream in it or not. I can't even fry an egg!

egreg

@JamesBond Don't you know that @barbarabeeton is the best proofreader in the universe? Besides all her other uncountable qualities.

David Carlisle

@cfr ? why can't you fix whatever is writing it to the aux file?

cfr

@DavidCarlisle @egreg So \dpthimport seems to be from PGF/TikZ? And I assume the macros with hobby are from the Hobby library.

James Bond

@DavidCarlisle Oh, if misspelled, it can be very vulgar, so be careful. =)

cfr

1:16 PM

@DavidCarlisle Because I don't know what it is.

David Carlisle

@JamesBond well I seem to have spelled it as cat

James Bond

@DavidCarlisle That's not a problem. Even cant is also a safe word. =)

David Carlisle

@cfr ah. In that case you just need to write \ExplSyntaxOn yourself, earlier in the file. (The one inside the definition doesn't do anything very useful but isn't actually harming anything)

cfr

@DavidCarlisle I am not sure how to do that because the tikz stuff won't like it. Hobby does this, which I'm guessing is somehow causing the problem:

\cs_new:Npn \hobby_save_path_to_aux:n #1 {
  \bool_if:nT {
    \tl_if_exist_p:c {g_hobby_#1_path}
    &&
    ! \tl_if_exist_p:c {g_hobby_#1_path_saved}
    &&
    \l_hobby_save_aux_bool
  }
  {
    \tl_clear:N \l_tmpa_tl
    \tl_put_right:Nn \l_tmpa_tl {
      \ExplSyntaxOn
      \tl_gclear_new:c {g_hobby_#1_path}
      \tl_gput_right:cn {g_hobby_#1_path}
    }
    \tl_put_right:Nx \l_tmpa_tl {
      {\tl_to_str:c {g_hobby_#1_path}}
    }
    \tl_put_right:Nn \l_tmpa_tl {
      \ExplSyntaxOff
    }

James Bond

I have been thinking of sending an email to the creator of Texmaker to ask him to consider to change it to TeXmaker, but I never got round to doing it.

cfr

1:22 PM

So Hobby is constructing a token list which includes \ExplSyntaxOn and \ExplSyntaxOff and then PGF's code is somehow wrapping that into a \def? Is that right?

Ulrike Fischer

@cfr Yes. looks like this. Hobby probably wants to write it directly.

cfr

@UlrikeFischer So I need to somehow something. I don't think I can just put \ExplSyntaxOn earlier in the file as @DavidCarlisle suggested, though, because the file is basically a tikzpicture, which doesn't seem likely to work.

Ulrike Fischer

@cfr \dpthimport is from the external library.

@cfr Can you make a minimal example?

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle I guess for the expl3 drivers I also need to adjust rotation in XeTeX (same problem of tracking links): I'll work on this and commit later

cfr

@UlrikeFischer Just managed ...

\documentclass [12pt] {article}
\usepackage{tikz}
\usetikzlibrary{hobby,external}
\tikzexternalize
\begin{document}
\begin{tikzpicture}[Hobby externalise]
  \draw (0,0) [curve through={(1,1)}, save Hobby path=path]to (2,2);
  \draw [xshift=1cm] (0,0) [restore and use Hobby path={path}{}];
\end{tikzpicture}
\end{document}

@DavidCarlisle @UlrikeFischer I guess that I need to switch Hobby's externalisation off if I'm using PGF's?

David Carlisle

1:38 PM

@cfr possibly although I expect the package could detect this and write out something better, will look later

Ulrike Fischer

@cfr You somehow doing double externalisation, once with \tikzexternalize and once with [Hobby externalise].

egreg

From pgfcoreexternal.code.tex:

            \if@filesw
                {%
                \toks0={#1}%
                % believe it or not, but the
                % \def\dpthimport{...}\dpthimport *makes* a
                % difference! In ensures any occuring `##' characters are properly expanded to `#'.
                \immediate\write\@auxout{%
                    \noexpand\def\noexpand\dpthimport{\the\toks0}\noexpand\dpthimport}%
                }%

@cfr ^^^^^

barbara beeton

1:55 PM

@egreg -- the author of the pgf documentation could use some spelling review. (also, probably, just typing practice.)

cfr

@UlrikeFischer I was using Hobby's to speed compilation while working on the pictures individually, but I'm externalising pictures as whole pictures once included into the main document. Since Hobby discusses both kinds of externalisation without mentioning any incompatibility, I didn't realise this would be problematic. And \HobbyDisableAux can't be used to switch it off globally, either. I have to get all of the Hobby externalises out of the TikZ code, it seems.

@egreg Which is, yes, where the problematic \defs in my .auxes comes from ....

Ulrike Fischer

@cfr btw the main problem is not the missing \ExplSyntaxOn, but that the writing introduce spaces: you get \tl _gclear_new:c instead of \tl_gclear_new:c in the aux. But I don't know what triggers the writing to the aux, you don't get it with normal pictures.

cfr

@DavidCarlisle This would be fantastic, since it seems not possible to turn Hobby's off globally.

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer The space is caused by the lack of correct tokenization ....

cfr

@UlrikeFischer Ah, which is why it complains about \tl in isolation?

Ulrike Fischer

2:00 PM

@JosephWright I know, but this means that injecting an \ExplSyntaxOn in the aux as suggested by @DavidCarlisle earlier won't help.

Ulrike Fischer

2:23 PM

@cfr Yes. You can use \pgfkeys{/pgf/images/aux in dpth=false} to disable the writing to the aux-file. (You need to empty/delete the old dpth file to).

Ulrike Fischer

2:37 PM

@cfr which will avoid the error but also no longer write the hobby code to the aux-file (no completly unexpected as you the compilation is done with a different jobname) so probably no really useful.

Paulo Cereda

Had a barbecue. :) I wonder if @AlanMunn prefers a typical American BBQ or a gaúcho one. :)

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda did you take kan's menu advice?

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle no :)

Moriambar

2:55 PM

@PauloCereda what's the difference?

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Hopefully 2e driver updates make sense: now working on reordering the expl3 ones (again)

Paulo Cereda

@Moriambar I will leave that to Alan. :)

@DavidCarlisle: 8 days to Portugal

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda do you need any help with the language?

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle I might need somre help, actually. :) My regionalism might put me into serious trouble. :)

David Carlisle

@JosephWright I'll try to get an update into graphics. I'm wondering if should allow an explicit 0 as in \scalebox{0}{...} (for drivers where it doesn't blow up it will do something and if it does blow up it's clear why) but not allow a non-zero scale factor to be so small it is zero if coerced to a number...

Moriambar

3:07 PM

@PauloCereda @AlanMunn please explain :)

Alan Munn

@Moriambar This is a very complex thing to answer, partially because "American BBQ" has a lot of regional varieties. Although the best American BBQ is not really a home BBQ because it requires hours of slow cooking.

Paulo Cereda

@AlanMunn Sorry for leaving you in the eye of the hurricane. :)

Alan Munn

@PauloCereda :)

Paulo Cereda

@Alan: in 8 days, Madeira. :)

Alan Munn

@Moriambar Gaúcho BBQ is extremely good and very simple: just lots of excellent meat cooked over charcoal. And if you go out for it, then the meat just keeps coming and coming until you are completely stuffed. This, I suspect would not be considered a good thing in Italy. Of course since you don't like red meat, I think you wouldn't like it at all.

@Moriambar Classic American BBQ is very different, and comes in two main types, roughly (South) Eastern and Western. In the East, pork is the main meat of choice but in the west (especially Texas) beef is the meat of choice. And for both, ribs (slow cooked for hours until the meat falls off the bone) are king.

@Moriambar And then there's the sauce debate, which is like emacs vs. vim.

Paulo Cereda

3:15 PM

@AlanMunn :set sauce-mode on

Alan Munn

@Moriambar So in conclusion, both very good, but not really comparable.

@PauloCereda You really have nothing to fear. :)

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda (eat 'duck)

Paulo Cereda

@AlanMunn ooh I seew what you did there

@DavidCarlisle oh no

cfr

@AlanMunn BBQ tofu, tempeh and vegetables are very, very good. The coop store I lived near in North Carolina did excellent vegan/vegetarian BBQ on their front lawn.

(They did meat on a separate grill. I don't know what that was like.)

Alan Munn

@cfr No comment. :)

@cfr Were you at UNC?

Paulo Cereda

3:21 PM

@cfr ooh misoshiru

cfr

@UlrikeFischer Commenting out the Hobby externalise occurrences in all the relevant places seems simpler ...

Moriambar

@AlanMunn here we're more like of a gaùcho style, pork-only, sometimes there are ribs but rarely they're cooked that long. But sometimes they are cooked really long. I do like some kind of pork sausages which are done in bbqs, but I eat a little in bbqs so they're good for my health. Sauce debate is easier here: no sauce.

cfr

... at least until @DavidCarlisle comes up with something.

@AlanMunn Yes. CH.

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda all you need to know:

Flanders & Swann

►

egreg

@PauloCereda Sardinhada?

Alan Munn

3:23 PM

@cfr Me too for a year.

Moriambar

@AlanMunn thanks a lot

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ooh :) Alan quoted this very song too. :)

@egreg mum included it too. :)

cfr

@PauloCereda ?

Paulo Cereda

@cfr it's a tofu soup, from Japanese cuisine. I love it. :)

cfr

@AlanMunn Ah. I was there much longer.

@PauloCereda <3

Alan Munn

3:24 PM

7 mins ago, by Alan Munn

@PauloCereda You really have nothing to fear. :)

David Carlisle

@AlanMunn oh yes:-)

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle I am expecting @Alan and I performing F&S live at TUG 2018. I just need a piano nearby. :)

Alan Munn

@cfr I really liked it but it was a one year job.

Ulrike Fischer

@cfr It is certainly the best, mixing this two externalisation methods looks like an hell of a complication.

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle I like how he corrected himself ~~flat~~ apartment because of the American audience. :)

Moriambar

3:30 PM

@DavidCarlisle my risky click of the day

Paulo Cereda

@Moriambar it's worth. :)

Alan Munn

@PauloCereda This is also a great song for zeugma.

Paulo Cereda

@AlanMunn ooooh

Moriambar

@PauloCereda why are there laughs in background?

Paulo Cereda

@Moriambar it's a live presentation.

Moriambar

3:35 PM

@PauloCereda yes but it's not funny at all

Paulo Cereda

@Moriambar well, I find it very amusing, but it's another emacs vs vim battle. :)

Moriambar

@PauloCereda Well I guess is something like english humour which is a kind of humour that does not amuse me at all

@PauloCereda also everything is clearly better than vim even carving letters into stones

:P

Paulo Cereda

@Moriambar well, can you carve letters on stones? :)

Moriambar

@PauloCereda it's hard but I did

Paulo Cereda

@Moriambar :)

Moriambar

3:39 PM

@PauloCereda I haven't written poems, just some acronyms onto it.

@PauloCereda I'm thinking about how to name my new duck friend

Are there any names that ducks like/dislike?

Paulo Cereda

@Moriambar Signore Papero. :)

Moriambar

@PauloCereda it should be "Signor" but ok

Paulo Cereda

@Moriambar Pardon my Italian, my spoken attempts are better than my written ones. :)

cfr

@UlrikeFischer I just wish I could switch off Hobby's externalisation globally or have it just not do anything when externalising the pgf way. I realise I could enable and then disable Hobby's externalisation globally, but I was hoping to keep it local. And I'd still need to switch it while working on the pictures individually, so I'd still have to deal with keeping it out when compiling the whole thing.

That is, I hope @DavidCarlisle will come up with something :-).

David Carlisle

@cfr looking

Moriambar

3:45 PM

@PauloCereda I'm always tolerant about foreigners trying to speak Italian and failing. It's Italians failing to speak their native language that infuriates me

Paulo Cereda

@cfr: I sent you an email with Fubá. :)

egreg

@PauloCereda Truncation is quite difficult to master for non native speakers.

@PauloCereda “bel papero”, “bei paperi”, “bello zufolo”, “begli zufoli”. ;-)

Paulo Cereda

@egreg oh my

egreg

@PauloCereda For very strange reasons, the adjectives “bello” and “quello” are spelled like the articles.

Paulo Cereda

@egreg ooh

egreg

3:57 PM

@PauloCereda Also, truncation in words ending in “ore” (with tonic o) is quite common; so we'd say “professor Papero”. However, in southern Italy (especially Sicily) it's more common “professore Papero”.

Paulo Cereda

@egreg interesting!

@egreg: I mentioned signore because of a song by Edoardo Vianello. :)

Ulrike Fischer

@cfr Sorry I'm not sure I understand your problem "Hobby externalise" is a simple boolean key and should be possible to set and unset it whenever you want. Similar with pgf-externalisation.

@DavidCarlisle Doesn't look easy. the dpth-file can contains lots of things and moving this to the aux-file under various catcode regimes could get messy.

David Carlisle

No idea if this works in general but it doesn't give an error here (@cfr @UlrikeFischer)

\documentclass [12pt] {article}
\usepackage{tikz}
\usetikzlibrary{hobby,external}
\tikzexternalize

\makeatletter
\long\def\pgfincludeexternalgraphics@read@dpth@line#1\pgfincludeexternalgraphics@read@dpth@line@EOI{%
    \pgfincludeexternalgraphics@read@dpth@line@getfirst#1\pgfincludeexternalgraphics@read@dpth@line@EOI
    \expandafter\ifcat\expandafter\noexpand\pgf@first\relax
        % Ah -- the first token is a control sequence. It belongs to
        % the .aux file.
        %
        \expandafter\ifx\pgf@first\pgfexternal@restore

Ulrike Fischer

4:14 PM

@DavidCarlisle The main problem is that pgfexternal redirects the whole aux-file of the image to the depth-file. This means that in this dpth there can be anything that can also be in a normal aux-file. E.g. \immediate\write\@auxout{\noexpand\def\noexpand\blub{Hello World}} in the tikzpicture will give a \def \blub {Hello World}. So a general \ExplSyntaxOn could do a lot harm. Have to go now, looking macbeth tonight ...

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer yes so I see but probably in an image there should not be a lot of space tokens needed in the aux file I would guess?

@UlrikeFischer don't want to spoil the plot but don't trust macbeth

Marijn

Does anyone know how the package descriptions on the CTAN website are generated?

Can a package author choose what to put there?

Moriambar

@Marijn they're chosen by the author and discussed and refined with the CTAN staff

Joseph Wright

@Marijn The CTAN team come up with something when first uploaded

@Marijn Normally they'll adjust the text if you request it

Marijn

So they are not automatically generated from the documentation/the source?

cfr

4:29 PM

@UlrikeFischer It is just inconvenient. It isn't technically difficult - just humanly error-prone.

Joseph Wright

@Marijn No, how could they be?

yo'

@DavidCarlisle The anti-nazi scout girl is under a lynch threat :-( The police takes action to protect her

Marijn

From the abstract of the documentation, for example, with some pdf-to-html magic

Joseph Wright

@Marijn Depending on the age of the docs and the target format(s), that could be very tricky!

@Marijn The original database was mainly written by Robin Fairbairns; since he retired from CTAN work the load has been spread across all of the current team

Marijn

the reason for asking is tex.stackexchange.com/questions/368587 where the description on CTAN, which is the same as in the documentation of the selnolig package, contains invisible utf-8 SOFT_HYPHENs, and Mico claims this is not the fault of the package (and that I am accusing him that it is :) )

but if I understand correctly he provided this text manually to CTAN? using e-mail or a form or something?

Joseph Wright

4:33 PM

@Marijn selnolig is relatively new: presumably some copy-pasting somehwere

@Marijn Yes, probably, or the CTAN people simply wrote/copied something themselves

Marijn

so, if the copy-pasted text contains invisible hyphens, and the text is copied from a pdf generated by (lua)latex (with fontspec), then latex has generated these invisible hyphens, right?

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle Well it is used for labels, so references could look odd. Imho one should look nearer at the ` \pgfkeys{/pgf/images/aux in dpth=false} ` and check what happens with the hobby code with it.

@DavidCarlisle ;-) and also not his wife.

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer yes, probably.

@yo' sorry to hear that

cfr

@DavidCarlisle I don't know whether that's a safe assumption. My .dpth files are pretty boring, but I don't know that has to be the case.

David Carlisle

@Marijn they are added dynamically by the site to allow page size changes

@cfr it worked for all my test case(s)......

@Marijn no they are created by javascript implementation of tex's hyphenation algorithm:-)

yo'

4:39 PM

@DavidCarlisle I now really pray she'll be ok.

Marijn

@DavidCarlisle I see it now, oh wow :D that is so not html-like

Paulo Cereda

@yo' oh my!

yo'

@PauloCereda yes :-( So far it's only on some shitty internet discussions but still

David Carlisle

@Marijn I think you will see it more and more html/css is encroaching on traditional tex typesettiing areas. I first saw this here tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2014/03/16/New-Hyphenation

@Marijn or rather here (2011) tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2011/04/01/Straight-Right

cfr

@DavidCarlisle Would it be possible to get Hobby to detect PGF externalisation and not try to do the save thing in that case? Obviously, a perfect solution would allow combining the two methods, but @UlrikeFischer seems to think that may not be really possible. In that case, the second best thing would be if Hobby could just ignore Hobby externalise etc. If it were expl3, I'd think maybe of making Hobby externalise a .meta rather than .bool_set key and set the boolean only if not ...

... pgf externalising. But, sadly, it is pgfkeys which are part of the dark arts.

Ulrike Fischer

4:46 PM

@cfr Should be easy.

cfr

@UlrikeFischer with .code?

@DavidCarlisle not .meta, of course.

David Carlisle

@cfr it's a turing complete language. anything is possible but I know nothing about this code at all, I just made the above by adding some tracing and staring at the log then working back from there:-)

@cfr and I've never actually used any of this externalize stuff (or tikz:-)

Ulrike Fischer

@cfr I don't know yet and I'm on my way out, but it should be easy. Hobby externalize is a simple key.

@cfr ask the hobby author.

Paulo Cereda

5:07 PM

ooh Bender B. Rodriguez is here

Je suis Napoleon

@gman: hi!

Johannes_B

5:18 PM

@PauloCereda Je suis un penguin.

Paulo Cereda

@Johannes_B ooh

Alan Munn

PC users: I need to buy a PC laptop, but I know nothing about them at all. Criteria: real HD (not SSD) (because I need a lot of space), sturdy/reliable (will be used in the field). Also, how much memory is usually needed for Windows 10, plus regular apps?

Johannes_B

@AlanMunn Windows? first flaw :-)

Alan Munn

@Johannes_B Helpful advice only, please. :)

Johannes_B

@AlanMunn Stay away from windows. You can run Linux on a perfectly polished piece of stone.

Sorry

Alan Munn

5:23 PM

@Johannes_B This is non-negotiable, unfortunately.

@Johannes_B If I had free choice, it would be 'stay away from PCs'. But it's not. :)

Johannes_B

@AlanMunn I am just thinking about the Who smashing guitars. Is there a Windows aquivalent?

:-p

David Carlisle

@Johannes_B the vast majority of people survive quite happily using windows, it's not as bad as you make out

@AlanMunn range is rather wide it just comes down to money really

Alan Munn

@DavidCarlisle Well I need reliability over price I think. I'm used to Apple hardware which is pretty indestructible.

@DavidCarlisle But looking at what's out there there are way too many choices.

David Carlisle

@AlanMunn with windows of course the hardware vendor isn't so constrained so you can get some box for 300 pounds from some manufacturer you've never heard of or get something with allegedly the same spec from a manufacturer you have heard of 1000, but the keyboard lasts more than a day... at work we always get dell or lenovo, the boy ended up with a HP last year, with 1TB hard disk and 225 SSD (better than my machine, but main selling point was a funky red backlight to the keyboard:-)

Joseph Wright

5:40 PM

@DavidCarlisle Yup: currently likely to be the next system for me

Alan Munn

@DavidCarlisle Ok. Thanks. That was my impression. Any thoughts on minimum memory to run the OS and other apps nicely? Apple always low-balls their minimum memory requirements; they're never really enough.

yo'

@AlanMunn These days I'd suggest 8G, but I wouldn't be too worried with 4G if it's the configuration of a notebook you like otherwise.

David Carlisle

@AlanMunn I have 8MB on this machine but it's win8 I'd probably get a bit more for win 10, (although M's win10 HP is 8Mb and can apparently cope with streaming pointless youtube videos with ease)

James Bond

@AlanMunn I just bought a Lenovo laptop for about 300 USD only. 4 GB RAM and Intel Celeron processor. I prefer Windows because I want to use Office. =) Lenovo laptops are generally cheap and decent.

TeXnician

@DavidCarlisle 8MB? Hard-core machine!

yo'

5:45 PM

@DavidCarlisle ya mean GB right?

David Carlisle

I leave the units to @JosephWright. 8 something

TeXnician

@JamesBond Which office? TSWNMNBMH?

2

James Bond

@TeXnician Microsoft Office, lol.

TeXnician

@JamesBond Those people mentioning whole names (@ChristianHupfer) ...

Christian Hupfer

@TeXnician 007 refers to the Federal ~~Bureau~~ Office of Investigation, better known as FOI ;-)

David Carlisle

5:51 PM

@AlanMunn also it depends what you are doing, for me switching to an ssd saved me well over an hour every time I do a build, generating tens of thousands of small files is much quicker on an SSD (for more important than the processor spec, really)

Christian Hupfer

@TeXnician My first PC in the mid of the 90s had 4Mb RAM ;-) I bought an extra RAM chip with 16Mb for 300 DM at that time. My 'new' machine has 16 GB ...

James Bond

@TeXnician FWIW, I often prefer Microsoft Office to TeX, LOL.

David Carlisle

@ChristianHupfer 640K....

James Bond

All new PCs has at least 4 GB RAM, that is the basic minimum to run very well.

Alan Munn

@DavidCarlisle 512K Mac Plus. :)

Christian Hupfer

5:52 PM

@JamesBond Blasphemy!

3