@BrunoLeFloch You mean making the internals of xparse in that area available in a generic form?

@FrankMittelbach :)

@BrunoLeFloch physics is not my favourite package on CTAN (see earlier comments)

@DavidCarlisle oh well

does anybody know anyhting about miktex.org having trouble? gives 502

@FrankMittelbach just saw your reply on gnats. there have been a few comments here with people not getting updates

@DavidCarlisle @FrankMittelbach seems to be online again. But there are no updates currently, the last repository change is from 21.2

@DavidCarlisle I made no comment on gnats ... made one to beamer on github

@DavidCarlisle meaning what?

@UlrikeFischer but there aren't bug much reports after 21.2 (well one about persian which I thought was replied to by @DavidCarlisle and one or two on babel)

@FrankMittelbach ?? Sorry, where should be reports?

@FrankMittelbach I think @DavidCarlisle was referring to the team list mail

@UlrikeFischer I guess @FrankMittelbach is talking about our site (based on @DavidCarlisle's Gnats comment)

@UlrikeFischer I'm a bit confused Ulrike, I guess. your comment was about miktex? you linked it to the gnats comment by david which got me on the wrong track (maybe feeling guilty about possible bug reports not being handled)

@FrankMittelbach I'm a bit confused too ;-) And yes I wrote about miktex, I thought @DavidCarlisle's comment "there have been a few comments here with people not getting updates" was about the messages on tex.sx about miktex.

@UlrikeFischer well ... never mind <grin> it all comes from too many email addresses pointing to each other ... I guess I was replying to a webmaster email we got (which goes internally to the same list as bug reports (coming from gants) so maybe that was was David was referring to then the rest was just a bunch of misunderstandings

@FrankMittelbach oh yes was website mail, thought it was on latex-bug :-)

Duck chasen dog...

@JosephWright Not as "internals of xparse" per se, rather as a parser generalizing \peek_... functions

Hi @BrunoLeFloch! Long time no see, pal!

Happy international women's day!

@CarLaTeX, @UlrikeFischer, @cfr, @barbarabeeton and many others! ^^

@BrunoLeFloch Yes, understood: presumbly could be part of a module allowing generalisation of stuff for special syntax handling, e.g. grabbing keywords, etc. cf. TikZ)

@JosephWright There's still something like \tl_if_it_is_xparse_novalue:nTF pending.

@egreg Is there any good way to get the following working without having to change every \index[aut] into \xIndex[aut]? (I'm trying to transport a document which uses \newindex[counter]... from the index package to imakeidx.)

\documentclass{article}

\usepackage[utf8]{inputenc}
\usepackage{imakeidx}
\usepackage{etoolbox}
\makeindex[name=aut,
           title=aut,
           %immediatecnt=section %wish ...
           ]

\makeindex[name=but,
           title=but]

\makeatletter
\let\@Index\@index
\patchcmd{\@Index}{\@wrindex}{\@Wrindex}{}{}
\let\@Wrindex\@wrindex
\patchcmd{\@Wrindex}{\thepage}{\number\c@section}{}{}
\let\xIndex\index
\patchcmd{\xIndex}{\@index}{\@Index}{}{}
\patchcmd{\xIndex}{\@index}{\@Index}{}{}
\let\protected@iwrite\protected@write

@UlrikeFischer Do a comparison of the optional argument with \pdfstrcmp

@egreg Hmm

@JosephWright We have already talked about this; if you use \SplitArgument, one or more of the resulting braced groups may contain -NoValue-, but this cannot be tested with proper expl3 functions, only with \IfNoValueTF

@egreg Ah yes: I'll raise on the team list I guess

@egreg Sure, but as \index itself doesn't see the argument and the patch uses for \xIndex \@Index it is not straightforward where to check the argument.

@UlrikeFischer I'll give a try

ctan.org/pkg/xfp

@JosephWright Wow

@UlrikeFischer It's a one-liner :)

@PauloCereda Thank you, Paulo!

@JosephWright It's the idea that count!

@UlrikeFischer The x stands for eXtreme! :)

@CarLaTeX <3

@JosephWright: My Oxford dictionary has arrived!

@PauloCereda Cool

@UlrikeFischer Been on my mind for some time: I'd much rather this than have loads of documents with \cs_new_eq:NN \fpeval \fp_eval:n

@PauloCereda you can look up duck! (see the second definition here) en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/duck

@UlrikeFischer This should work

\documentclass{article}

\usepackage[utf8]{inputenc}
\usepackage{imakeidx}
\usepackage{etoolbox}
\makeindex[name=aut,
           title=aut,
           %immediatecnt=section %wish ...
           ]

\makeindex[name=but,
           title=but]

\makeatletter
\let\@Index\@index
\patchcmd{\@Index}{\@wrindex}{\@Wrindex}{}{}
\let\@Wrindex\@wrindex
\patchcmd{\@Wrindex}{\thepage}{\number\c@section}{}{}
\let\xIndex\index
\patchcmd{\xIndex}{\@index}{\@Index}{}{}
\patchcmd{\xIndex}{\@index}{\@Index}{}{}
\let\protected@iwrite\protected@write

@DavidCarlisle OH MY

@PauloCereda I meant of course 1.2 not 2. :-)

like water off a duck's back

This dictionary is interesting...

@egreg Thanks, will try when I'm back.

@PauloCereda not a phrase you knew? (that one, unlike some you'll find in the OED is quite common:-)

@DavidCarlisle no, it's new for me!

which OED have you got? (the large, the very big, or the full wall of shelving version?)

@DavidCarlisle The pocket edition. Joseph's suggestion. :)

@DavidCarlisle: no coincidence, our lovely language expert @Alan comes to our rescue. :)

@PauloCereda <3 <3 <3

Any suggestions on how to make an unnumbered footnote (no need for marker in the text, just need a note at the bottom of the page), that also works without hyperref throwing up? Without hyperref letting \thefootnote relax and using \footnotetext works well, but this generates those dreaded destination with same identifier warnings

@daleif \let\realfootnotetext\@footnotetext then load hyperref then \realfootnotetext{zzz} probably works

@yo' ?

@DavidCarlisle ?

:)

@yo' it was almost as if you were suggesting a typo in my code

@DavidCarlisle typo? In your code? I'd never suggest anything like that.

@DavidCarlisle it sort of does, no hyperlinks problems, but the number reappears, I'll have a look

@daleif oh inside the definition of your footnote command locally redefine \@thefnmark to nothing,

@daleif or of course just do \insert\footins{hello} but that's not latex syntax:-)

@DavidCarlisle of course, redefine the low level stuff, not the high level, thanks

@PauloCereda Oh my ....

@ChristianHupfer L3 in a nutshell

@PauloCereda The quintessence of everything, for sure ;-)

@ChristianHupfer ooh

@DavidCarlisle Surely all typos in your code are in fact features.

Somebody (let's call him @JosephWright, for the moment) announced new breaking features of xparse.... please note: new breaking, not breaking new ;-)

@PauloCereda You mean when the pocket sized dictionary comes up short?

@AlanMunn <3

@AlanMunn: you know we cannot trust an Englishman on English affairs.

I'm having problems hiding headings in my frontmatter.

Same issue as this:

\thispagestyle{plain} doesn't work

@BFH What document class are you using?

@PauloCereda Not any language can be as well-designed as the German one, of course ;-)

Book

@BFH Perhaps you have a command that switches to another pagestyle internally...

@BFH And what are you using for making your headers?

@BFH: I can't follow that link.

I'm not using a package for headers

I just say

\chapter{Approvals}

holla

is There any known problem to use a float inside \AtEndDocument?

because in some case (and I can't get a MWE), the float is put before other content called in \AtEndDocument, even if this float is the last content of \AtEndDocument

@BFH Try the following:

\documentclass{book}
\usepackage{lipsum}% for dummy text
\title{A title}
\author{An author}
\date{}
\pagestyle{plain}
\begin{document}
\frontmatter
\maketitle
\tableofcontents
\mainmatter
\pagestyle{headings}
\chapter{A chapter}
\section{Section}
\lipsum
\end{document}

more specially, that happends when using the handout package

which use \AtEndDocument

@AlanMunn OK, I think I've figured it out. The \pagestyle sets the page headers, not the chapter headers. I want to both remove the page headers and chapter headers.

Are there any good hybrid editors that let you use both a wysiwyg view and a tex view simultaneously to edit a single document (and view changes in realtime)?

@Extrarius Overleaf

@AlanMunn What I need to do is this: \chapter[Approvals]{}

@BFH Why do you want to get rid of the chapter headers?

@BFH : Is that an online-only tool? Is there anything standalone?

@BFH You mean you want the title to appear in the page headers and table of contents but not in chapter itself? That seems an odd thing to do.

@Extrarius The simple answer is not really. See:

@Extrarius Most IDEs have a simultaneous preview and editing, and even have SyncTeX which synchronizes the preview and source, but AFAIK, Overleaf is the only one with WYSIWYG in the editing side. Obviously, LyX doesn't count.

@AlanMunn This is for copyright pages, dissertation approval forms, abstracts, and other frontmatter that needs to show in the TOC but has required format without the titles.

@BFH: I don't recommend this, however

How about a tool, then, for less tech-savy people that would work with a set of tex templates provided by the more tech-savy people?

@Extrarius This seems an entirely different problem from the problem of real time compilation.

TeX being at least context sensitive makes a terrible scenario for real time compilation.

@Extrarius My standard answer to this is a question: How do you think most of us learned LaTeX in a time when there were no internet platforms to download templates or even TeX.SE?

@BFH Well now you're really asking us how to format all of your thesis...Are you sure there's nobody at your school who has already created a class or package for that?

@ChristianHupfer \chapter[TOC Text]{} seems to work brilliantly.

@ChristianHupfer : I'd like to get tex adopted as the standard for the project I work on, but there are people that have to write formatted documentation that probably don't have time to learn tex.

@BFH Well, that would leave a lot of space and the Chapter NUMBER heading? on the page

@AlanMunn : It is a differently problem if wysiwyg is not available. If it is avilable, it would be very convenient for everybody

@AlanMunn Unfortunately I got a document from someone else who used LaTeX for their thesis and it's not fully compliant. I will be open sourcing my template when I'm done, but none already exists.

@BFH I see. Are you in a super hurry?

@ChristianHupfer Yup for the space, but no, with reference to the Chapter NUMBER heading. I think it's because I set the \pagestyle to plain.

@AlanMunn I am not being paid right now, but I am not in a super hurry. I can't get my committee on the same page for a defense date.

\vskip -2.5cm works nicely to remove the space above.

@BFH Because I would strongly recommend switching to a document class like memoir or scrbook (KOMA) which allow you lots of user friendly-ish ways to modify everything. I maintain a thesis class for my university msu-thesis which is based on memoir. You might want to take a look at how I did things (it's part of TeXLive/MikTeX). This will likely save you time in the long run. It took me a few hours to mock up the first draft of the class in the beginning.

@BFH Eeek. No, this is not really how you should be doing things.

@Extrarius Before you attempt this:

@AlanMunn I'm aware it's kludgy, but these pages are basically forms where the elements don't change size. Is there any reason why one shouldn't use similar hacks if it's readable and doesn't break the document? I will look into the memoir class.

@BFH The answer to that question is 'It depends'. For a one-off document right at the edge of a deadline sure, but for something that you might want to use again or pass along to others, it's better in the long run to write good code. Also, (as you can see from the change history of my class) thesis offices are experts at making arbitrary changes to the requirements, so if you do intend this to be used by others, you should strive for clean code, not kludges.

@BFH Because temporary fixes usually become permanent practices. Bad habits die hard.

@PauloCereda And then they become Die Hard II, III, IV and a whole franchise of bad habits. :)

@AlanMunn ooh starring Bruce Willis as the student trying to write his thesis with TeX and friends.

And Martin Freeman as @DavidCarlisle.

Honestly, that seems to be the history of TeX though. There's a lot of extremely strange conventions for the programing side of the language. For instance, who decided on the ridiculous syntax for conditionals? Why isn't there an appropriate, consistent style for lists? Why are there inconsistent uses of control characters? etc.

@bfh Speaking of kludges, your user name is very funny to me. When I was a teenager I worked in a bike store fixing bicycles and when someone came in with a bike to fix we had a joke about about "This job is a job for the BFH" which stood for 'Big F-ing Hammer' :)

They are my initials, but yes I have used the initialism for mechanical purposes. Always use the right tool. The right tool is always a hammer.

@BFH Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I for once love the TeX syntax. :)

@AlanMunn LOL

@PauloCereda Fair enough. It does sometimes have some resemblance to Fortran, which is likely popular with the target audience.

Also, Alan, you were right. \vskip broke when used with \begin{center}. That would seem like a fairly severe bug.

@BFH I'm not sure what's so odd about the conditional syntax in TeX, but I think the real issue that most people have with TeX is not really understanding that it's a macro language and not a procedural programming language.

@BFH Yes. Things might lead to endless discussions, like the one I once watched between two professors arguing about the initial value of a vector index, either one or zero.

@AlanMunn This.

Why can't it be a procedural or even object oriented programming language though? Scripting languages are easier to use when they're properly procedural.

@BFH (i) because it's old (yet still completely usable) and (ii) it was designed for a specific purpose, namely typesetting. It was never designed to be a general purpose language.

@AlanMunn This.

@bfh To go back to hammers, a screwdriver makes a lousy hammer, even though in a pinch you could use it as one, but it's really good at putting screws in.

@Maïeul floats float so it is surely unexpected that they can move before other content?

that is the point… I dont understand why, but…

I mean, fair enough, but it makes things difficult sometimes. For instance, I wanted users to be able to provide a list of names and the document to make a table with those names. I ended up creating a list of macros for each name and using a conditional to only add the 4th and 5th name if the macro was uncommented. I am aware that that's terrible, but I couldn't make heads or tails of the documentation for the list package or for loops, so I gave up.

This would have been simple in Python, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@BFH You want a template engine, not a typographic one. :)

I usually do this with Velocity (arara 4.0 will have this) or with cheetah (Python).

@BFH what do you mean vskip broke? (not that vskip should ever appear in a latex document)

Can't we have both? I'm being difficult.

@David : I define a command, which content is : 1) input something 2) \printibibliography 3) a figure float

and this command is called in AtEndDocument

but… the float is printed before \printbibliography

I don't understand the why… and I can't produce a MWE…

@BFH Yes, we can. :) But no one wants to rewrite stuff at this moment. :)

@Maïeul well by default float positioning includes [t] so it will go to the top of the page. you can use [bp] to stop top floats or if you want it to be allowed on top but never fload backwards use flafter pacjage, but none of this is related to \AtBeginDocument

@DavidCarlisle It just didn't do anything when placed before the \begin{centering} command. Weird.

It needs to be within the centering block to be typeset.

@BFH it will have done something, but as I say you shouldn't use it anyway.

@BFH no.

@DavidCarlisle What do you mean no? It matters whether it's inside or before the block when typesetting with XeLaTeX.

And what is the recommendation other than using \vskip? I know it's bad, but I don't want to redefine \chapter.

DavidCarlisle: I ensure you that I can have this problem… and I don't understand why, as, as you said, float don't go backward…

@PauloCereda This.

@PauloCereda I would love to contribute, but I would likely do more harm than good.

@BFH But redefining \chapter is exactly what you should be doing.

@BFH you get different effects, but the vskip will always put that amount of space in the main vertical list. (you should not use it, you should use vspace) but latex displays center, section headings etc use \addvspace so that they specify their space as a maximum so two center one after the other do not get a double space in between. ...

so if you add space before a center that is less than the space center was going to add anyway center will detect that and add a smaller space coming to the same total

@BFH you should specify the layout for chapter and use \chapter you should almost never have spacing or font commands within the document.

So the proper thing to do is redefine \chapter, then reset it back to normal after the frontmatter?

I will create a new engine named DuckTeX, and we will sing the main theme to the tune of DuckTales: DuckTeX hoooo hooo

@Maïeul sorry I don't understand, what is the problem, what you describe just sounds like the normal behaviour of floats.

no, it is not the normal behavior

@Maïeul a float going to the top of the current page?

normally, if I do "something … [a float]"

I can't get "[a float] something"

but this special case, I got it…

I don't understand…

@Maïeul yes you can if you allow t

ah?

@BFH Probably. Or define separate commands to generate the relevant pages.

what is the default positionnement?

@Maïeul as I say if you never want floats to float backwards use the flafter package which is part of the base latex distribution

ok

sorry, I didn't understand

@Maïeul it depends on the class but usually tbp

hi

so my problem was that I was wrong about float behavior

thanks David

@BFH plain style does not remove the Chapter One etc. chapter header

Maybe frontmatter does, because it's not there.

@BFH Yes, \frontmatter. Anyway, \chapter[foo]{} is the wrong approach

@BFH is the syntax of \ifx\foo\zz ... \else ... \fi "ridiculous" ? why is it any different from similar macro conditionals of the era such as C preprocessor #ifdef BFH ... #else ... #endif

@BFH No, the chapter header is in \@makechapterhead ;-) Or \@makeschapterhead for the starred version

@ChristianHupfer So why didn't that come up. Hold on.

@BFH But please, don't do this. Use memoir and your life will be a lot simpler.

@AlanMunn What does memoir do differently? The documentation was HUGE.

@BFH but why not use one of the packages such as titlesec that gives a simpler interface to specifying headings

@BFH It gives you user hooks to adjust almost everything. And the documentation is large because it does a lot, and also explains a lot of how the base classes do things. So you can learn a lot about the best way to do things from reading just that manual.

do know if we can use all the "Lion" image of Duane Bubby, only citing his name?

@BFH Or as @DavidCarlisle says, use titlesec. But for a book-type document I would still prefer using memoir instead of book+packages. (And I use titlesec for all of my other documents.)

@Maïeul it depends which one, the various drawings have different rights but I seem to recall tug or ctan have one with a fairly open licence

I thought about this one tug.org/notices

@Maïeul here this one has a page saying basically you can use it ctan.org/lion

that is for the basic lion, but we organize a meeting on "TeX family", the other one should be better

oh, the Graphics is on GPL license

@Maïeul ah you found it yes that page says that one is GPL

@BFH More or less, but you won't be able to specify a short title for the ToC or the headings this way

@ChristianHupfer er except you can put the short title in the main argument as the main title is junked:-)

@BFH you want a % after #1}

@DavidCarlisle Yes, I forgot about this 'important' design feature ;-)

@egreg must have been so happy to get this comment on one of his answers

@DavidCarlisle @egreg will of course pounce on the word 'seemingly`. :D

@DavidCarlisle Where? My solution doesn't seem to work.

@BFH in the code you posed above \chapter{#1} should be \chapter{#1}%

@BFH did you do that somewhere were @ is a letter? (otherwise it will define \@ to be m and typeset akechapterheadmgobble

@DavidCarlisle put in \makeatletter and \makeatother

@BFH well as ever debugging unseen code is tricky, you can always post a real example to the main site. I'm offline for a bit. home time.... but what did "does not work" mean? give an error or typeset text as in my guess above or ....

@bfh Can I repeat my plea to go read the memoir manual and start from scratch using it. You will save yourself a lot of time and headaches in the long run.

@AlanMunn The thesis is already complete and typeset. I'm just tweaking things. When I change to memoir everything breaks because of argument clashes, so that will take some time. I think I'll get things working, then try to convert.

@BFH Ok, so in that case you are better going the titlesec route. This will allow you a good interface to change things without messing with the low level code of the base class.

@bfh Because I'm getting the impression that a lot of what you're asking are essentially XY problems: you want to do Y but you're asking about X because you think X is the right way to do Y.

@AlanMunn That is likely. This is my first experience with LaTeX

@BFH So you should really be asking about the higher level descriptions of your problems, not code. E.g. I need certain pages to appear in the TOC but they don't have regular chapter titles. etc.

@DavidCarlisle I get a no room for a new count from mtpro2.sty:

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{expl3}
\ExplSyntaxOn
\int_step_inline:nnnn {1}{1}{100} {\newcount\a}
\ExplSyntaxOff
\makeatletter
\alloc@0\count\countdef\insc@unt\pointcount@ %from mtpro2.sty 2009/4/27 v2.3
\begin{document}

\end{document}

@AlanMunn Thanks for the advice. I'll do that.

@AlanMunn More robust? Well…

@UlrikeFischer Nice idea, breaking the insertion class allocation.

@egreg It's not my fault!

%% Copyright 2001--2009 Frank Mittelbach, David Carlisle, Walter Schmidt, Mike Spivak

@UlrikeFischer Hidden feature!

@UlrikeFischer hmmmm

@UlrikeFischer note the order of the authors...

@DavidCarlisle Regarding the order: I can avoid the problem by loading mtpro2 earlier but I'm not sure if the \alloc@ line can break something nevertheless.

@UlrikeFischer no I meant the order of authors in the line you showed; blame Frank

@DavidCarlisle I know ;-). But apart from the question who to blame: is it safe enough to load the package earlier?

@UlrikeFischer I think so but we should probably changee it but I found the dtx so it seems blame should start at the other end if that author list

% An auxiliary macro, borrowed from Ams-\TeX:
%    \begin{macrocode}
\alloc@0\count\countdef\insc@unt\pointcount@

@UlrikeFischer presumably it's just trying to make a local allocation, where do you get the no room error, there or a clash later?

@DavidCarlisle I get it when the line is read. You only need to replace in my example above the line with \usepackage[lite]{mtpro2} and you will get the error at line l.138. The problem is naturally that the file is not on CTAN, so how to correct it?

@UlrikeFischer it's here isn't it (but no dtx for some reason) ctan.org/tex-archive/fonts/mtp2lite/texmf/tex/latex/mtpro2

@UlrikeFischer no it's not a local allocation, why the heck isn't it using \newcount\pointcount@ ??

@DavidCarlisle Oh, I never saw it, I always downloaded it from pctex. But it has a li­cense that pre­vents dis­tri­bu­tion ;-(. Nevertheless one could perhaps update this version, then there were an "official" link at least for the lite version.

@DavidCarlisle Don't ask me ;-).

@UlrikeFischer it's exactly the old definition of \newcount except in ams-tex it would have been the version but without \outer but here it's top level so even the plain \outer version would be OK

Ran TeXLive Update manager. Now biber is whining that biblatex control file version 3.2 expected version 3.3. But I've installed all updates.

Anyone have nay ideas?

@UlrikeFischer ctan says ctan.org/pkg/mtp2lite is maintained by Michael Spivak so they wouldn't let us update it you'd have to ask Michael. but the error is completely spurious and you could replace that line by \newcount\pointcount@

    LaTeX2e <2017/05/01>

@Canageek normally this means that you either didn't update everything or that you have a local version. Check the log files.

@UlrikeFischer I've updated ^^^^

@UlrikeFischer What am I looking for in the logs? I hit update all in TeX Live

@Canageek the path to biblatex compared to the path to other files

@Canageek check the path and version of biblatex

@DavidCarlisle may? Do you have a time machine?

That is as ti should be

(c:/texlive/2016/texmf-dist/tex/latex/hyperref/hpdftex.def

for example

@UlrikeFischer doesn't everyone?

I have so much space around this graph imgur.com/a/GucmL

I'm not sure why it's created so much, ? And it's very close to the bottom of the page as well

@baxx presumably the white space is in the pdf file, you could fix that there or use the viewprt option in \includegraphics to just show the relevant part

ah ok... damn. i'll look for viewprt

@baxx in other words if you just look at 3.pdf in a pdf viewer is it cropped to the actual image or is it a full page of white space with the image in the middle

@baxx viewport (with an o, my typing isn't good:-)

yeah there's a bunch of space above / beneath the plot

@baxx well latex carefully preserves it unless you tell it not to do that:-) (often best to use \fbox{\includegraphics{... while testing as the fbox shows you how big the image really is

i can just wrap the include in that then (with the code i have)?

@baxx yes that's what i mean, if you did \fbox{\includegraphics[width=0.7\textwidth]{./images/3.pdf}}you can easily see which white space is in the image and what comes from latex

yeah i can see now - that's better thanks (just reading docs for view thng)

@baxx first two numbers are coordinate of bottom left of the actual image and second two are coordinates of top right (like a postscript bounding box)

oh ok i'll see what works

division by zero... whoops

@DavidCarlisle I can replace it locally but I can't expect everyone to replace it, and imho I also can't distribuate a changed version. So the main questions are: does the line do any harm, if I load the package early enough? And how to contact Michael Spivak (@barbarabeeton)?

@DavidCarlisle hrm - it's kinda screwy though imgur.com/a/f9e97

@UlrikeFischer -- i'll send you information on mike off-line.

@UlrikeFischer possibly contact pctex or Walter Schmidt, the line is nonsense the comment just after it says that can't use \newcount as it is \outer which hasn't been the case since 1993 in latex and anyway I can't see why an outer command can't be used there.

@DavidCarlisle ok much better... thnks

@baxx add ,clip then anything outside the viewport won't be shown, then fix the viewport to show the bit you want to show. but rather than mess with viewport by hand other way is to use a tool to generate a new pdf with a tight bounding box eg pdfcrop which is in texlive

i've kinda done it now

clip to where , the graphics options?

@baxx yes (\includegraphics not \usepackage

cool thanks

@UlrikeFischer you can load the package earlier to avoid the error but you may need to load it late, eg it wants to set up all the math symbol fonts with its fonts so you might need to load it after other math packages that are setting up other defaults if you want times to win

@UlrikeFischer or using \usepackage{etex} early on probably works as well

@DavidCarlisle I see we have learned ISO dates :)

@JosephWright LaTeX2e <2017-05-01> :-)

@JosephWright as I say, may be best to back that out, but would give something to write about in ltnews, oh that reminds me I have ltnews to check in...

@DavidCarlisle Nah, it will land after the TL freeze so people have time to get the idea

@JosephWright ooh goes back to '71 it seems en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_2014