Judaism Town Hall Chat - 2012-07-19

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3:32 AM

Think I'll need some coffee before this one, heh. goes to make some

@TimStone Fellow EDT-er? :-)

C'mon guys, it's not even midnight. Yet. ;)

@MonicaCellio Indeed!

@AnnaLear I'm contemplating not sleeping, but that tends to have mixed results for the drive into work...

@TimStone I have a 30-second commute to my desk and I still avoid all-nighters. It's staying awake through the rest of the day is the worst. :)

There's so much code left unwritten, though! Decisions, decisions...

3:44 AM

@AnnaLear You need better railings on your stairs, you could cut down your commute time in style

@GraceNote I don't have stairs. So my first step would be to get some.

4:00 AM

Hey, let's get this party started!

Welcome to the Mi Yodeya Town Hall Chat

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We're just here to get to know the candidates and ask questions regarding the candidates views on moderation that may help in voting.

@GraceNote Thanks for organizing this!

A few notes about the format:

The format is open, feel free to ask your question(s) unprompted, however please be mindful of whether or not candidates have answered the previous questions so that they don't get behind and start missing questions. Other than that, feel free to jump in.

What would you do if a user on the brink of a behavioural/jerkface suspension tries to bait the mods by leaving a comment along the lines "what a mistake for a mod to make" on a mod's post for the sake of seeing where things go?

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Candidates, be sure to use the reply feature so that questions and their answers are linked together. (Hover your mouse over the left of the message, click the down arrow, click reply)

When a question is asked, I'll star it - please star it yourself also to help! Please save stars for the questions so that candidates can refer to the star list to make sure they haven't missed a question. (For this reason, I'm going to clear the stars from before this event, but, thanks Isaac)

@TimStone will be creating a digest version of the town hall chat after it is completed. This digest will take the form of a question on meta, containing all the questions asked as well as their answers for easier reading.

There's a system message up on the site, so we may get some stragglers joining us.

For candidates, I spy among us: @HodofHod, @DoubleAA, @MonicaCellio, and @AdamMosheh

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Well, random's already started us off, so, let's begin

4:03 AM

@GraceNote Are SethJ and msh210 expected, or did they let you know they wouldn't be able to make it?

@random By the time we've gotten to that point I've reached out to this person in email. Apparently that didn't work and the mods are discussing. But inappropriate comments are inappropriate regardless of context, so I'd delete that one. If there's any communication channel still open I'd also use that.

@DoubleAA They may be able to show up, but may not. If they cannot, they're free to answer questions after the event.

With a diamond after your name, everything you say and do on the site will be perceived in a different way. How do you plan to handle this, especially when having discussions about site policy and scope decisions?

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@random I would admit that it is possible I have erred, because I am not perfect. I assume the best in people. I will consult fellow moderators and we will arrive at a consensus.

@random A lot would depend on the 'relationship' s/he has developed with me already, but I imagine all else being equal responding with I respectfully disagree; do you mind explaining what particularly was the problem? or perhaps invite him to a chatroom for the two of us. Again depends how much of a history s/he has.

@GraceNote I will have to be aware that others are watching my actions and that as an elected official, I represent my constituents. I have to act the way they would want me to act, at all times.

4:07 AM

How much time do you expect to spend per day performing moderation duties? Or will it just be "as it comes," whenever you have the time or get in the mood?

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@GraceNote I plan to use extra I think or my opinion is to clarify that everyone is welcome to participate and voice their opinions.

@random It's obviously an inciteful comment, but I don't think it's out of line enough to push the suspension through. As @DoubleAA noted, I'd probably reach out to him through chat, since it's a (more) public medium, rather than a mod message.

@HodofHod 'mod message'? I thought the question was about comment threads on a post somewher?

@GraceNote What I do doesn't reflect just on me but on the community. With or without a diamond I strive to keep that in mind, act respectfully, and ask questions rather than making assertions if there's a disagreement. I think I have a pretty good record of that that people can review. The unknown is of course what mods do out of the public view; I'll have to learn that but I expect to apply the same principles I do now.

@DoubleAA Yes, but I would not respond to an off-topic comment with another one. Therefore there are two options for further communication. Mod message/email (private), or chat room (public, but can become private if necessary). I'd choose the latter.

4:09 AM

@Dave Probably a couple hours a day total, six days per week. I'm a person who gets in the Mi.Yodeya mood pretty often, since I love helping facilitate people who have what to learn and teach about Judaism. I am someone who has a decent amount of time to spare anyway. I just want to help my community and that itself should be an inspiration for me to perform my moderator duties...

@Dave I suppose 'as it comes' but I'll point out that as it is now I find the time to help out consistently (re Flag Weight).

A post is flagged. All mods have looked at it. No one's taken action/cleared it because you're all unsure what to do with it. What do you do now when there is no consensus?

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New users often are not accustomed to the Stack Exchange system, and sometimes struggle to present themselves properly, either in the way they use the site or their attitude. How willing are you to work with "problematic" users, and at what point do you decide that someone isn't worth the effort?

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@random Good question! My impression is there is a secret mod only chatroom somewhere where we can discuss together, and if it comes down to it, vote. If necessary we also have the Community team to consult with for guidance.

@Dave When I asked on meta (before nominations) about the time commitment I got the sense that there's not a lot of mod activity. I spend a few hours a day (scattered) on the site now (excluding shabbat) and that should be enough to take mod actions as they come. Mod duties trump my personal activity; I don't currently anticipate a conflict.

4:11 AM

@random I'll make a decision and stick to it. I won't go back and forth without consulting the other mods. We have to work as a team.

@Dave In my day to day life, I tend to spend quite a bit of time working on a computer. I nearly always have a M.Y tab open, and I check it frequently. I also use the mobile site quite a bit when I'm on the go.

@AdamMosheh I have noticed that you are of the opinion that we should be answering questions in a "psak" manner (and not advise CYLOR). Will you follow this approach as a mod?

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@GraceNote Never give up. This is a learnable interface, despite the obvious learning curve. Let's use Bam.Yodeya.Com as well as the Meta to help people with their site problems.

@ShmuelBrin How would a mod use that ideology?

@random That's something the mods need to talk about together, rather than responding one at a time. If nobody's taken action it doesn't sound dire, but it could be a broken window and those can add up. Maybe it's time for a (sanitized) discussion on meta to gather more input.

4:13 AM

@DoubleAA not close such questions, for example, or to explicitly encourage such answers.

Consider a Question "I'm injured, so I can't walk to synagogue this Sabbath. What can I do to connect my prayers with those of the community?", an Answer "According to the Conservative Movement, you may drive to synagogue. Drive there, and join your congregation." and a comment on the answer "This answer is invalid, as it assumes that Jewish Law isn't binding." Stuff gets flagged. What do you do?

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@GraceNote So long as the user seems to be trying to be part of the community I'll keep working with him. We haven't had a lot of problems of this sort (that I've seen), fortunately.

@MonicaCellio what do you mean by "working with him"?

@GraceNote I'm probably #1 on StackExchange's most wanted for having really long comment threads trying to help people clarify exactly what they are asking/saying. For better or worse, I tend to be a little Socratic in using questions to help them understand, and I have a gold badge to prove the number of times I've edited to improve low quality posts.

@GraceNote Depends on a user's attitude. If a user is obviously intentionally disturbing, then I would likely not waste a lot of time discussing his behavior with him (some, but not a lot). If a user means well, I'd be willing to spend a lot more time explaining things (and I have, with several users)

4:17 AM

@Dave Working with him: engaging in discussion in comments (or in chat if appropriate), making the gentlest edits possible to bring his posts into alignment with how the site works, providing links, offering encouraging words, upvoting when appropriate -- continuing to make him feel welcome and not pushed-off.

Everything you vote on (both close and delete votes), once elected, will be a binding Super Vote. How will this change your voting habits?

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@ShmuelBrin Obviously I think people should exercise judgment when making decisions. Same thing goes when asking LORs as well. My LOR taught me that it is possible he could be incorrect when he is poseik a decision, and ultimately I am responsible to know if he is incorrect. If he tells me to eat pig, then I should know better, despite him telling me. But if someone on the Internet says that pig is kosher, then maybe it is. Who knows? Hashem gave us sechel and wants us to make good choices.

@IsaacMoses One of the most important questions here IMO. First off, time would be of the essence to avoid hurtful comments. I would comment thanking for the post, noting our policy about non-Orthodox opinions including a link to the relavent meta post meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/q/292/759 and invite them to contribute to the ongoing discussion. I think I would delete the post as out of scope.

@IsaacMoses First, comment that the site is open to Jews of all types, not just a particular movement. Probably not delete the comment immediately though unless the other mods feel a fight is imminent. Also edit the post to add language along the lines of "for Conservative Jews, an option is..." instead of a directive. Also, because I happen to know this, note that most (but not all) C rabbis rule thus.

When you see a question with major issues (poorly-written, argumentative, etc.), what tool do you reach for first?

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4:20 AM

@MonicaCellio (I was not dealing with the particular psak there but assuming just some psak that is definitely non-Orthodox)

@GraceNote Think twice about everything I post, then think again. Be polite. Scope decisions and policy should always be discussed with other mods and meta when necessary. If the policy is already clear, then link to the policy when discussing it.

@IsaacMoses That is not an incorrect answer, since it does accurately quote the Rabbinical Assembly (IIRC). However, it needs to be stated that even according to the Conservative Movement there are multiple approaches to this topic. It is not unanimous, and many (most?) members of the Masorti (Conservative) Movement in Israel do not customarily drive.

@GraceNote I'll be a lot more conservative with those votes. Losing the "just plain user" vote is a cost of moderation; I wish that were an option but it's not so I'll cast those votes less than when I voted as part of forming consensus.

What is something about the character or policy of the Mi Yodeya that you'd like to work to improve as a mod, and how will you work on it?

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@TimStone Poorly written and argumentative are very different. If it is very clear what they were trying to ask, I would edit promptly. If it is not clear I would comment seeking clarification and only edit if they go AWOL. If it is really argumentative I would close until further edits.

4:22 AM

@DoubleAA Ok, gotcha. We've had occasional non-O questions, though off hand I don't recall non-O answers to questions that don't ask for that. So I'm speculating some.

@random It depends on the post. Sometimes a the merits of a post can be discussed in chat (without mentioning the flags against it.) Other times, it may be necessary to discuss it with others in the Teachers Lounge. If no consensus can be reached at all, I'm an inclusionist. I'd leave it as is.

@TimStone Edit first, but usually comment is a close second.

@GraceNote I will fulfill the Talmudic dictate of "hevei metunim badin" and be patient, pondering the decisions over in my head before I make any important decisions. Every user has something positive to contribute, and I have to look for the positive in everything. If I determine that zero positive exists, then and only then will I perform moderator duties.

@MonicaCellio :) I was just commenting on the specific data point you brought about 'some don't hold of it'.

Do you feel like a representative percentage of the community participates in your site's meta? Based on that, how strongly do you think feedback presented on meta should factor into your decision making as a moderator?

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@TimStone I agree with @DoubleAA on this one. That is a good policy, and if they did go AWOL, then I would consult with everyone Bam.Yodeya.com to try and understand what the question was about before the mods make a decision.

4:26 AM

@TimStone First tool: comment, as a question ("Socratic" as someone else said) if possible else a clarification of site policy/consensus/norms. If the post is bad-argumentative, edit for that. If it's bad-poorly-written, wait a bit for the author and then edit if he doesn't. But the first approach is the comment, and I very much prefer to let authors fix their own stuff unless it's damaging. They have more of a sense of ownership that way, which is a good thing.

@TimStone From experience of asking a few q's and being corrected (here and on other SE sites) I would say this: I find that the constructive comments have helped me clarify the questions for myself.

@TimStone I feel meta is pretty much only used by the 'regulars' but we have some ~~good~~ great regulars and I would highly value their input.

@TimStone As someone just getting into this I would have to admit that I have never touched the meta. Which I think goes to Double AA's point.

Tell us about a time (here or elsewhere) when you managed to successfully spur a group of people to positive action that wasn't required of them.

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@IsaacMoses I knew this question was coming... One of the policy type things that I strongly support is an emphasis on sources where appropriate. As a wise man once said "as far as 99% of people who read this are concerned, you are nothing but a pseudonym on the Internet." I'm not sure exactly how I would emphasize this more as a mod, but perhaps my comments (which I already leave) would carry more weight thanks to the diamond.

4:30 AM

@IsaacMoses I love the community we have here. We can always be better, of course, but in that area nothing specific comes to mind. In terms of content I'd like to improve two things: (a) accessibility of posts for the less-scholarly (jargon, implicit steps in arguments, etc) and (b) the ratio of non-psak questions, particularly "life and living". (cont)

30 minute mark

@IsaacMoses For (a) I'll edit posts more to add that clarification where can (and ask where I don't know), and for (b) I'll start a meta discussion and try to lead by example.

@IsaacMoses Another 'policy' mods have more control over is when to leave sexuality questions around. The FAQ allows for deletion at our discretion when they are too...explicit. FWIW I think the current threshhold is tolerable but perhaps I would shift it slightly to the right. It's obviously a case by case thing.

@IsaacMoses I would comment explaining how the site policy is that in order to have meaningful dialogue, Jewish Law is assumed to be binding. I'd link to the policy ( meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/a/472 ). As @Monica said, I'd make sure to clarify that all are welcome here. I'd probably delete the answer (as @DoubleAA) said, pending a timely response from the answerer. If the comments have become really virulent, I may lock the post, and invite the user to chat. See below.

@TimStone I see our most-active users in meta a fair bit, but not the newer users as much. The (new) community bulletin board seems like a good way to draw broader attention to specific posts and I hope the mods do (and will) talk about which meta posts to highlight. It's just as important on meta as on main to welcome new users when they show up so they'll return.

4:33 AM

@IsaacMoses I want to change Mi.Yodeya policy welcoming for all Jews who are interested in learning and teaching Judaism, including Israelis (Ivrit MY.SE - FTW). I would try to market the site to my fellow members of the Reform Movement who are growing in their understanding of how to live and learn Judaism, as well as our friends who think that the Internet is not such a healthy place for Jews but have much to teach. Rav Student's endorsement of MY.SE should help, and we need other haskamot too.

@MonicaCellio An excellent point! We should welcome users to meta even after they have been welcomed to main.

@AdamMosheh (haskamot = endorsements/approvals)

@TimStone As for how much that feedback figures in, I think if we've reached out (for "bigger" issues), consulted with each other, and if applicable consulted with SE, that's the best we can do. We want as much input as we can get without hindering progress.

Why do you want to be a moderator (ie, as opposed to a user with privs via high rep?)

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@TimStone Efficiency. I do a lot of mod things already via flags, but this would be quicker and for some flags speed can be important.

@IsaacMoses A final area that mods have some background control of is tag merging. I tend to like broader tag categories (although we really could use nested tagging around here! #feature-request) but obviously in all these policy things I mention, a community consensus sure trumps my thoughts on the matter; I'm only talking about where there is no consensus.

@TimStone I think that some users are unaware of the Meta, since they only come to ask questions. If we could somehow inform them that our community of learners and teachers only has its strong backbone because of the work that users put into the Meta (e.g., re-tagging ideas, et al.), then maybe they will be encouraged to contribute. But the main part of the site is the site itself, not the Meta.

4:39 AM

@TimStone First, so I can do more of what I already do (and BTW I don't have 10k rep yet). Second, to offer some diversity to the mod pool. I'm not an Orthodox man who grew up in yeshiva and I think I can help bring the "adult learner" and "liberal but serious" perspectives. (That's not phrased well; I'm sorry.) I don't know how much being a woman changes perspective. I sure don't want to run on gender or anything, but it's there and might matter to some.

@TimStone Our top users are there frequently, but some of the newer and less active users don't go there much at all (much the same as any site.) That said, I feel that most of our community is represented on meta, and that posts on meta (especially the more important ones, which get featured) get enough eyes and responses to give a strong indicator of the community thinking. This certainly affects my decisions as a moderator.

@DoubleAA I second this - broader tagging and nesting would help immensely. I sometimes get lost in our tags and I'd like us to do better.

@MonicaCellio (Everyone else welcome to answer too) What relevant unique perspective do you bring to the table, and how would that affect your actions and value as a mod?

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@IsaacMoses - I spurred the mob to vote for this answer, despite the fact that the question was closed as unconstructive.

@TimStone - Because it takes a long time to earn that, and I just want get started already with facilitating (latin root means "making it easier for") people who are capable to learn from and teach others.

@AdamMosheh ummm

4:47 AM

@ShmuelBrin That is a good thing!

@IsaacMoses Quality. We have a lot of great content on this site, but there's a lot that can be made even better. I try to edit things that I come across to improve them, especially some of the older SE 1.0 stuff. I love the community here, and I feel we've more or less hashed out most of the important site policies, so I'm not sure there's much I'd change there.

@AdamMosheh why?

@IsaacMoses I am a Reform Jew who does not fit the stereotype. I think my presence and respectful participation, here and on other fora, has helped improve cross-movement understanding. I claimed my Judaism as an adult without benefit of childhood education, which I think made me a stronger learner but more importantly that "learn everything now" experience is recent I can relate to people with questions, including the less-advanced ones.

What do you feel is the goal (/mission) of MY.SE?

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Inspired by meta.stackoverflow.com/a/136119/166155 Apparently mods can refund bounties. Why can you imagine refunding a bounty? (And don't cheat and read the answers there!)

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4:49 AM

@ShmuelBrin Because I was able to unite everybody for something positive.

@AdamMosheh how is this positive?

@IsaacMoses In terms of approach, while I am less knowledgeable than many here (sources, language), I seem to be pretty good at logic and that's helped with some questions. That's not always (or necessarily often) the right approach to an answer, but it's a tool I have.

@ShmuelBrin Because I negated the machlokess (dispute).

50 minute warning - may consider easing off on question volume

@DoubleAA (Haven't read the answers there.) One thing that comes to mind is if a question is closed or substantially altered for reasons beyond the bounty-giver's control (scope-policy change, hidden dup, that sort of thing). But refunding a bounty should be very rare; the 2-day delay should catch most of this.

4:51 AM

@AdamMosheh by upvoting your answer you lessened machlokes? I don't get it.

@IsaacMoses I am a Jew who does not fit any stereotype. My Orthodox friends think I am Orthodox, my Reform friends think I am Reform, and my Chabad friends think I am Chabad. I want to bring Klal Yisrael together and I believe that the MY.SE is a way for us to ask questions to understand why everyone is arguing with each other and realize that deep down, everyone actually agrees.

@ShmuelBrin People thought that the question was impossible to answer without instigating machlokess, but I found something that we could all agree on.

At what point would you bring an ignored meta post (that could use official comment) to the Higher Ups' attention?

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@shachna To increase Jewish knowledge, addressing the questions people actually have and not what we think they should know, in an open and friendly environment where we can all learn together. Everyone is a student and everyone is a teacher. We're a community.

@AdamMosheh so you had a good answer, how is getting 10 upvotes helpful?'

@AdamMosheh @ShmuelBrin Both your points have been made IMO. Leave it for now for the transcript.

4:53 AM

@DoubleAA I'd need to understand what's been done in the past before I can answer that. So unless it seems urgent, "about as long as we usually wait, unless we think we need to chang that policy".

@shachna I agree 100% with what @MonicaCellio said in response to this question.

@shachna To discuss Jewish life and learning, and more importantly, to share our accumulated knowledge and discussions with the broader internet (=world).

@shachna Mostly a resource for its users. Partially a resource as a kiddush hashem for Mr Random Gentile. Partially as a depository for my divrei torah :)

As we approach our close, final thoughts from the candidates?

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@DoubleAA What my friend @Vram did was wrong, destroying his site reputation for meaningless bounties. Bounties are meant to enhance the learning, not destroy an individual.

4:56 AM

@IsaacMoses I'll probably have better answers tomorrow. One that comes to mind now is that the seders in my family are "challenging", and by asking a question here I was able to gather a lot of good ideas and effect some small changes in a family that hadn't been willing to budge in past years. THis will be a multi-year process. That's small, I know.

@DoubleAA Within 6-8 weeks. Just kidding, but if it is important, then probably ASAP.

@AdamMosheh I happen to think BST nee Vram was making a point of the futility (הבל הבלים) of reputation. So final thought: Quality first, rep second.

@GraceNote We are blessed to have many fine candidates. While we're running as individuals, my goal is to elect the best team, whether I'm on it or not. I hope I am but we can't all be and serving the site's needs is the most important thing.

@DoubleAA If there's been no resolution or "Higher Up" interaction for a while, and the post has dropped down the question list, I'd probably bring it up. Obviously, this would change depending on the urgency. I brought up the issue of yodeya.com returning a 503 with SE as soon as I saw it.

(When this is over I hope to catch up with what the rest of you all said in the last hour. :-) )

4:58 AM

@msh210 Quick! 2 minutes to answer all the questions!!!!! GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@HodofHod I agree with that bump. That's a good example of urgency requiring prompt action.

@MonicaCellio I concur.

@DoubleAA Heh. Hi, all! Sorry, I had no access to a computer until now. I guess I'll start backreading....

@GraceNote candidates who were present and who were not are all still welcome to post answers in here, right?

Alright, time is up for the official live portion of the Town Hall chat. I'd like to thank everyone who could make it, the candidates for being able to answer our inquiries, and all askers for participating in the event.

5:00 AM

@IsaacMoses I second that.

1 hour ago, by Isaac Moses

@GraceNote Thanks for organizing this!

Candidates, feel free to continue answering any questions you're still in the midst of, and @msh210 and @SethJ can answer all of them. As mentioned, Tim Stone will be making a digest version of these event at a soon time

23 secs ago, by msh210

@IsaacMoses I second that.

@AdamMosheh All in favor?

@AdamMosheh All opposed?

@GraceNote Thanks very much for organizing!

5:01 AM

@MonicaCellio I think we can star this.

@DoubleAA Do moderators get unlimited star-power?

Yes we do

@AdamMosheh Why are you asking me?

Hey, I just discovered there's a vote quota in chat. :-)

@GraceNote Should you give them a deadline to get responses in?

5:03 AM

Whew! I just realized how intensely focused on my computer I've been for the last hour.

@DoubleAA Because you asked us to star it and I am out of stars...

@random If he's already over the suspension brink, I'd suspend him irrespective of the comment. If that comment puts him over it, I'd flag it for moderator attention with a note indicating that I think it puts him over the brink (i.e., let a moderator not personally involved handle it). Otherwise, I'd flag the comment as offensive (which deletes it) and (a) if there's been moderator chat about the offender then link in the chat to the deleted comment or (b) if not then probably do nothing.

@msh210 Great point about flagging for another mod.

@IsaacMoses I've been employed in schools for teenagers who have social/religious issues. I've helped to spur them (on an individual basis) to have better social interactions with their peers, and as a group, to grow in their Jewish learning and Jewish deeds. I've helped to arrange parties and gifts in these situations, as well as to arrange ways for the students to help the community.

I don't get it, (meaning based on all this I haven't seen a straight answer). What are the assumptions made (in relation to jewish law) when one uses this site?

5:04 AM

@GraceNote I think I missed a question in there somewhere, but it's 1M and I'm going to crash. I hope to address anything I missed tomorrow morning (bli neder). Thanks all and good night.

@shachna meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/ask Boy that'll be a tough Q.

@shachna I don't still don't completely understand the question being asked... And I think that it might in fact belong on the main site, not Meta.

@MonicaCellio Just skim through the stars list when you get a free chance. It'll be a while before Tim Stone gets to the digest

@GraceNote Ok thanks!

@shachna Let's take this discussion over to VDB or Mi Yodeya Meta, please.

5:06 AM

@IsaacMoses "Within the next few days" would be best.

@GraceNote This has been tough hitherto. I've tried (perhaps not always!) not to be thefirst to voice an opinion, for fear it would be given too much weight. Plus, what @DoubleAA answered to this.

@DoubleAA Will do (and I'll clarify there)

@msh210 Patience is a very good thing. I agree with you.

@Dave The latter; and that's what it's been until now; but regulars will recognize I'm pretty active nonetheless.

Good night, everyone. Thanks again, @GraceNote; and thanks, candidates, for your thoughtful responses.

5:09 AM

@IsaacMoses Good night, @IsaacMoses and @all

For me, the time is now for sleep

When scanning other digests for Q ideas, this was by far my favorite meta.rpg.stackexchange.com/a/1556

@random You mean we've already discussed in the site's moderators' chat room and can't agree? Then I'd mention there that I'm bringing it to the SE moderator's chat room (frequented also by SE staff) and do so; or perhaps e-mail SE staff (again, mentioning as much to the other site mods).

I do wish this wouldn't jump back to the bottom every time I post.

@TimStone I love this site and community, and I feel I can help it grow (qualitatively and quantitatively) better as a mod, than a high rep user. Having been both, I feel that that is true.

@msh210 Try a full transcript open in a different tab.

5:11 AM

@IsaacMoses Writing the Meat Q now.

@DoubleAA If the question has been changed beyond the original meaning that the bounty offerer had intended, and the bounty offerer had indicated his disapproval. (Obviously, this change would have to be done by the OP, otherwise, such a change to someone else's question should (usually) be rolled back.) However, since such an occasion would be exceedingly rare (especially here), I think that each case should be discussed by the mods.

@GraceNote I'd expect I might need to comment a bunch of times. English Wiktionary (where I'm an administrator, something like a mod here) has its pages laid out in a very specific format. People don't get it. I've explained and explained and explained. Unlike other admins, I haven't ever blocked anyone for good-faith edits on that site except for 6 hours or so, and that with a note saying "so you can take the time to read the help pages people have linked to for you".

@GraceNote (cont'd) That's not to say that there can't come a point when it's clear the person is uninterested in adhering to site mores.

@HodofHod Just curious: did you know you had that ability? @msh210 too. I never knew about it.

@DoubleAA I did. I believe it came up in discussion once.... There was a bounty message we were considering removing.

@IsaacMoses Nothing is out-of-scope in the answer; and the comment is reasonable as well. I'd clear the flags and delete nothing.

@GraceNote There have been several times I hesitated to close or (especially) delete for that very reason. I did upvote this question.

@TimStone I can't answer this better than @DoubleAA did.

@TimStone I do not think a representative cross-section uses meta, but those who do are active on the main site and have good ideas. Hopefully with the new Community Bulletin pointing people to meta we can get more people to voice their opinions. If I think it's necessary, inaction is always a possibility even if meta has decided on something (though I'd very unlikely take actual action against what meta decides).

5:41 AM

For those of you who didn't understand (or want to answer) my earlier question, here it is in the clarets version I could manage: meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/1266/…

@IsaacMoses While in college, there was an unfair curriculum rule (what courses could count toward the foreign-language requirement). I got students to sign a petition; linguists to write in support; and the faculty curriculum committee to discuss and vote on the matter. Once, there was a certain aspect of halacha people were neglecting and I successfully encouraged its wider adoption. (Not sure if that counts as "that wasn't required of them" though. :-) )

@DoubleAA Sounds good.

@TimStone I've covered this in my nominee statement on the election page: "I tend to clear chatty or obsolete comments quite a bit, which is effective as a moderator (otherwise, I could only flag them for moderators' attention). Also, I have created a bunch of tag synonyms and merged tags, again something moderators can do effectively and others can't."

@HodofHod Is there, perhaps, some tautology in "most of our community is represented on meta"? Is participation in meta part of what defines "our community"?

@msh210 part, yes, but not all. Community, IMO, are those that take part in posting, commenting, voting, chat, and meta. I'd say that most of our users who participate on the site, in comments, by voting, and in chat, also participate in meta. (Some more frequently than others, of course).

@shachna The site is for-profit and owned by SE. When it comes down to it, every ultimate decision about the site is SE's, not the site users' or mods', and is based on whatever SE decides is best, and we have to live with it. That said, to the extent possible, I like the site to spread knowledge of Judaism.

@DoubleAA (Since you mentioned them, I glanced at some of the answers there.) I did not know (but do now) that an open bounty prevent question closure. That'd be a reason, maybe, to refund a bounty. A better reason would be if someone other than the asker offered the bounty and the asker subsequently edited the question to be vastly different from what it had been when the bounty was offered (but in a circumstance where such an edit was warranted, which it certainly wouldn't always be).

@DoubleAA If it really could use official comment (and not every open meta post can) then not long. A week maybe? Two? Less than that if it's urgent, however, or (perhaps) if the asker is nagging.

@MonicaCellio I agree.

@msh210 But as @MonicaCellio said, I may think of a better example later. :-)

6:05 AM

(I don't remember if I answered this already) msh210 [correctly pointed out](http://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/5390780#5390780) that having that capability can make one indecisive at times, which can be a good thing.
I hope never to forget that almost all mod actions are undoable, but also to allow for the democracy to function. Factors to consider include what time of day it is (ie are other voters around) and what the advantages of a quick decision are (ie preventing nasty comments and answers to the wrong question or duplicate answers). I also imagine using a comment to pl…

@DoubleAA It's the three weeks!

@msh210 My thoughts exactly.

@DoubleAA Good idea. Alas, I just came across this suggestion of yours now, when I'm basically done. :-)

@DoubleAA Yes.

@shachna meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/a/472 seems to cover it handily.

@msh210 Sounds like an answer (or a dupe vote?)

@DoubleAA An answer, I guess. Just mentioning it here because @shachna seemed to be asking it as a question for the candidates.

7 hours later…

12:57 PM

@DoubleAA Sorry, but I won't grow a beard for mod consistency. Some things are going too far. :-)

1 hour later…

2:12 PM

@random I may have misunderstood this question when I answered. If the comment is an attack my answer stands; if there's any doubt in my mind (maybe he does have a point about my post and is not phrasing it appropriately), then I agree with @DoubleAA.

2:52 PM

@TimStone In addition, my style on Mi Yodeya is very strongly of the "question and prompt before acting" style. I leave a lot of comments and enough people find them useful that I've earned Pundit (and Outspoken). I think that little diamond can help me be even more effective in that, and I recognize the additional obligation that comes with that diamond.

@IsaacMoses Recognizing that we're past the question period and maybe it's too late.. I would like to see @AdamMosheh 's answer to this too, if possible. Adam, your background is different from many here; how does that shape you as a moderator?

3:30 PM

@IsaacMoses Better example: I once sat on a board of directors (a very unusual place for me to be) and found that there didn't seem to be a lot of examination or discussion of key issues (finances, some policy stuff that was affecting the organization, etc). I wanted to change that culture to one of an engaged, informed board without being branded as "that guy who makes our meetings drag on forever when we all basically agree".(cont)

@IsaacMoses What I did was to gently ask questions to prompt discussion of assumptions, precedent, "ok there's precedent but does it make sense here?", etc. I tried to not express opinions immediately but, rather, prompt them to express opinions so we could actually have a discussion. It took time, but the culture did change. Also, behind the scenes I talked with the president about allocating more agenda time for certain topics, which he did and which now happens without prompting. (cont)

@IsaacMoses It's been several years now and from what I understand, the board still operates this way. Was it "required" of them? In principle yes but they didn't see it that way. Now they do.

@MonicaCellio I do have a beard.

11 hours ago, by Adam Mosheh

@IsaacMoses I am a Jew who does not fit any stereotype. My Orthodox friends think I am Orthodox, my Reform friends think I am Reform, and my Chabad friends think I am Chabad. I want to bring Klal Yisrael together and I believe that the MY.SE is a way for us to ask questions to understand why everyone is arguing with each other and realize that deep down, everyone actually agrees.

2 hours later…

5:39 PM

@IsaacMoses I would comment explaining how the site policy is that in order to have meaningful dialogue, Jewish Law is assumed to be binding. I'd link to the policy ( meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/a/472 ). As @Monica said, I'd make sure to clarify that all are welcome here. I'd probably delete the answer (as @DoubleAA) said, pending a timely response from the answerer. If the comments have become really virulent, I may lock the post, and invite the user to chat.

(Edit: as I explained further to @Monica, this reflects my understanding of current site policy. My personal opinion is that we have room for such opinions, provided that they are clearly demarcated (just as orthodox ones may note that they only follow such and such a Rabbi.) In any event, even under current policy, I would discuss any such situation with the other mods before deleting.

@HodofHod Late mod editing? No fair :(

@DoubleAA Why not? I can still answer questions that I haven't gotten to, so why can't I edit? (Additionally, this is not a changing of my stance, but rather a little explanation and background.)

@DoubleAA He's augmenting his answer, which I understand to be permitted.

6:06 PM

@HodofHod Augmenting is fine, but why not just link to your post with a regular arrow? (I'm not actually angry; the frowny-face was more of a jest)

@DoubleAA Ah. I did it this way, because I wasn't sure the other way would ensure my explanation ended up in the digest.

:D

6:37 PM

(the digest is coming soon, by the way, I just haven't had a chance to sneak it in while at the office yet)

7:00 PM

@TimStone Thanks for the fast work! Looking forward to it.

7:42 PM

@random @random, I'd just delete the comment. If the goal of the commenter is to goad the moderators into taking drastic action, I don't think that sort of comment would work on me. If it is part of a problematic pattern, I'd take stock of it, though.

@GraceNote That's funny, because I never really looked at the diamonds before I realized what they stood for. Even now I don't really take the diamond into consideration when engaging in policy discussions. I will occasionally ask a mod what his/her opinion is on a subject, but other than that I don't really let it dictate how I perceive an answer or decision. So to think about it the other way (ie., that someone else might look at my decisions/statements differently) is a bit challenging...

@GraceNote However, I would say that a site policy decision needs to be made for the sake of the site as a whole, not the desires of an individual. I think I'm fairly conservative on what's in scope, but I'm open minded enough to take stock of questions and perspectives from off the beaten track or from different backgrounds. As such, if the discussion is about policy, I'll take someone else's opinion into consideration, and I'll respond respectfully (whether or not I agree).

@Dave I probably spend too much time on the site as it is! I don't anticipate that being a mod will make me spend any less!

@random I have a hard time seeing that happening. Those of us who have been around for a while tend to understand each other a bit, and I think we can work to come to a consensus.

@GraceNote I already work with new site users to get them to improve their questions and answers, or else I make edits and let them know. If someone is engaged in an honest effort to contribute to the community, I think I've had endless patience. If they are really being disruptive with rude comments, I'll handle that like the earlier question with someone being on the verge of being banned. I don't really see it as the site/mod banning someone who is disruptive, but as someone banning themselves.

@IsaacMoses What do you do? No, seriously, what do you do? One of the things I'll do as a mod is confer with more experienced mods, including @IsaacMoses, the founder, and see if a consensus can be worked out among us as to how best to handle the situation.

@GraceNote I will have to be a bit more judicious. Right now I sort of use 'Close' votes as a way of testing the waters to see if others agree with me. However, before I lost 'Delete' priviledges (when the threshhold was lower), I kind of saw that as a quasi-moderator priviledge, earned with rep points. I used that very sparingly. I'll take a more wait-and-see approach when I am unsure of the correctness of a 'Close' or 'Delete' action.

@TimStone 'Edit'. As a mod that might change to 'Comment' and suggest an edit. I think the responsibility of a mod on this site, since we are a site about Jewish Life and Learning is to lead by example, not to take unilateral action, even if it's action that everyone with minimal rep-score can take. But I think that will depend on the case.

@IsaacMoses One of my pet peeves on the site, to be honest, is silly questions. I can't help it. I take my experience in Jewish Life and Learning seriously, and I like to see others who are contributing to that and the Jewish Life and Learning of others on the site and future internet users for perpetuity, take that seriously also. I won't automatically delete questions about aliens, but I'll suggest that it might be off-topic and see if anyone else agrees.....

@IsaacMoses Ultimately, if the community doesn't agree that a question is too silly for the site, it's not my role as a moderator to unilaterally close or delete it. As for how I'd make (in my opinion) improvements, I'd discuss policy questions related to the subject in Meta. Opinions can change. And even if they don't, that's ok.

@TimStone I don't. I wish more people participated more on the meta more often. As a mod, I would of course take stock of opinions expressed on meta, as well as a general sense of how people perceive different issues on the site itself. And I'd stay in contact with other mods, as I've said before. I think it's important to have a broad view on where the site is and how to keep it useful and relevant for everyone.

@IsaacMoses I led a college group from NYC to MI for a protest. But I don't think that's what you had in mind. Here on the site, I have actually tried to refrain from "spurring the mob" to take action, because the one or two times I've tried, it hasn't gone in my favor and (I've felt like) I looked like the bad guy. In short, lesson learned: except in extreme cases, make a comment, see if feedback supports action, take action. Otherwise either take unilateral action only sparingly or don't at all.

8:19 PM

@SethJ Nicely put (the last sentence).

@TimStone Good question! I'd have to agree with @DoubleAA. Efficiency. I'm not sure we mean the same thing, though. What I mean is that there are certain times when something needs attention, and it just doesn't get it. That's not to say I'm more efficient than other mods. But I know when I catch something I wish there was something I could do about it right then and there.

@msh210 Thanks!

@TimStone To conclude my thought, though, I ultimately want to be a moderator because I want to have more tools at my disposal to help improve the overall experience of all the users of the site. Again, I can't promise to be more effective than the mods pro tem, since I think they've done a fine job. But when I see something glaring I just feel rather helpless to improve the situation. I'm not a sit idly by kinda guy.

@IsaacMoses I think this deserves to be asked off all the candidates. My answer would be that I have an appreciation of all perspectives, as I have said before, and I'm willing to consider different views, all the while I uphold Torah and Mitzvoth. I can joke around and be lighthearted, as you well know, but I also take certain things very seriously, and one two of those things, in my life, are in direct conflict - openness and upholding tradition. I bring those same values here.

@shachna To allow people to ask questions that they couldn't ask elsewhere. For me, I've rarely asked a question here that I felt perfectly comfortable asking any of my rabbis - largely out of a feeling that my question is fairly basic and I'll betray my own ignorance. Here, not only am I fairly anonymous, but everyone is respectful and non-judgmental of others' standing in their Jewish knowledge and practice. Halevai that were true in the real world!

@DoubleAA I did not know that. Not having read the answers there, and not wanting to copycat @MonicaCellio's answer, I can't really be too sure. But I agree that it should be extremely rare. Maybe if someone has an itchy mouse-clicking finger or something. But even then, isn't there an "are you sure" button?

@DoubleAA I'm not sure I fully understand the question. Wouldn't the mods be the higher-ups? You mean S.E. staff? I'd bring it to their attention as soon as it seems like it needs real staff attention. I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't.

@GraceNote I think we have a good slate of candidates. I look forward to seeing the election results, and I'm excited to participate. I think the site's in good hands and is moving in a good direction. I don't mean to rock the boat by throwing my hat in the ring, only to add to a good thing. Thanks for organizing the townhall. Hatzlachah to my fellow candidates and the future moderators in all their work going forward.

2 hours later…

10:37 PM

@SethJ Yeah, setting a bounty is a three-step thing IIRC.

1 hour later…

11:53 PM

in V'dibarta Bam, 6 hours ago, by Monica Cellio

@HodofHod Sounds good to me. Last night we were all (I think) answering "what would you (singular) do", but ultimately the question will be "what will you (plural) do".

@GraceNote And I don't think that's problematic. While I and I imagine the others are completly planning on utilizing community input and mod discussions whenever we need to make a decision (and those times happen), it still is valuable to the voters what are personal views on these issues are because invariably that will influence us in some way.

@GraceNote But just to emphasize, I (not feeling unique) completly plan on utilizing communal resources when possible before making a decision, and am perfectly willing to change a decision when neccasary upon receiving more input.

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