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Bml
Bml
1:20 AM
Hello everyone, I am new to this Room. I wanted to create a chapter style Veelo for Report class according to these answers: tex.stackexchange.com/questions/177144/… and tex.stackexchange.com/questions/487917/…. The problem is I have used \usepackage[lmargin=1in, bmargin=1in, tmargin=1in, rmargin=1in, margin=0.8in]{geometry}, so the black bar appears very small and attached to the margin of the page.
Also, the wording "Chapter 1" is not aligned with the text. How can I make the bar larger and moved further to the left along with "Chapter 1"?
@Bml you are probably better making a small example and posting as a question on the question and answer part of the site, but what's the intention of that geometry setting? you set all four margins individually then set margin that resets them all
Bml
Bml
1:42 AM
@DavidCarlisle "you set all four margins individually then set margin that resets them all". Could you explain further about this? Thanks.
 
1 hour later…
2:59 AM
@cfr You replied to me earlier saying chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/65820155#65820155 you were sorry for something but that I wouldn't believe you. So I'm confused on all counts. I suspect this apology wasn't aimed at me.
cfr
cfr
3:39 AM
@AlanMunn It was aimed at you. I didn't mean for it to be confusing. If it was, that's totally my fault.
@cfr But I have no idea what you're apologizing for. Or why I wouldn't believe your apology either?
cfr
cfr
@AlanMunn I realise that. I'm sorry to be so confusing.
@cfr So I accept your apology (although I'm sure it's unwarranted). You certainly haven't done anything that has even remotely bothered me.
cfr
cfr
You must think I'm crazy.
@AlanMunn Thank you. I'm sorry for being so weird.
3:58 AM
@cfr Not at all. I think you may have been spooked by other interactions and now you're being super careful. But I'm pretty sure you that you're not ever going to offend me.
cfr
cfr
@AlanMunn Thank you.
4:33 AM
@Bml The options you are giving for the geometry package set each margin individually to 1 inch (lmargin=1in, bmargin=1in, tmargin=1in, rmargin=1in), and then you set margin=0.8in, which sets all of the margins (left, bottom, top, right) to 0.8 inches.
 
2 hours later…
yo'
yo'
6:11 AM
@UlrikeFischer :-( That probably makes all this unfeasible.
6:28 AM
@yo' well you could write Ross (as overleaf]and ask for an urgent upload.
Bml
Bml
7:09 AM
@enkorvaks Sorry, I badly wrote the options. I wrote \usepackage[tmargin=2cm, tmargin=1in, lmargin=1in, margin=0.85in, bmargin=2cm, footskip=.2in]{geometry}. So, how to solve the problem about Chapter?
7:51 AM
@Bml margin=x is shorthand for setting top bottom left and right margins all to x, but you set each of them first then over-write those settings but as I say make a small complete example making clear what you want to do and ask a question on the question and answer part of the site, chat doesn't work well for code questions
@Bml that is why you should not do that, asking for help when you only post an untested fragment that in fact is unrelated to your issue just makes it impossible to help, make a small complete document that shows the issue and post it as a question.
Bml
Bml
@DavidCarlisle OK, I'll post it as a question. Thanks.
@Bml your margins seem very small by the way your text lines will be impossibly long if you are printing on standard size paper at 10pt
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Bml
@DavidCarlisle OK...What are the ideal margins for a LaTeX report in Mathematics?
8:15 AM
@Bml Try \documentclass{amsart} and see what you get. Of course this is subjective, and they might have been thinking about letter paper instead of a4, but still it is probably a good start...
@Bml you are thinking about this the wrong way, the margins are not important, they are just an artifact of the size of the paper so if you print the same document on A4 or US Letter paper you get different margins, but who cares, it's just the unused space, what matters is choosing a text block that makes text lengths of a reasonable size for reading.
@Bml Also for vertical size you should arrange the size of the text block is a whole number of lines (so `\topsep+ n*\baselineskip for some n) which is not the case if you set fixed top and bottom margins (geometry has an option to fix up the vertical size)
Bml
Bml
@DavidCarlisle OK, what is the reasonable size of text lengths for a Math book?
@DavidCarlisle How can I do this?
yo'
yo'
@UlrikeFischer The problem is the timing: We were finally ready this week with the previous version, when we realized that having the new PL1 would be beneficial for the improved pdf accessibility tools. We need to get this out at last on Tuesday, and for that, we have to start testing today. If pdfx is the only new failure, I'm willing to try to push for that, but even that would be more than what agreed about earlier this week :-/
(Btw, this all makes me understand why Typst is getting some hype.)
@Bml add heightrounded to your geometry options so it will autofix your incorrect verttical size but are you sure you want to use geometry at all? as @mickep says you could use a class such as amsart the AMS have been setting math papers for over a hundred years, you ask what are good sizes to use for a math report, using what they use wouldn't be a bad place to start
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@DavidCarlisle OK... I'll use it.
@DavidCarlisle There is a problem with it, the "sectsty" package doesn't work with amsart...
8:28 AM
@yo' if you already have the new LaTeX from june, PL1 makes no difference to the pdfx problem. If you do not have the june release then you would ship a LaTeX from november last year and miss most accessiblity stuff.
yo'
yo'
@UlrikeFischer We made the last full update in late March I think.
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@DavidCarlisle But apart of this, amsart doesn't support Chapters, whereas they are a fundamental part of my document...
@Bml if you really are writing a book things are different, if you look at actual books almost none of them are printed on standard home/offce paper size, so you need to set the text to whatever size teh publisher says even if that looks odd printed n A4/Letter
yo'
yo'
This is pdfTeX, Version 3.141592653-2.6-1.40.26 (TeX Live 2024) (preloaded format=pdflatex 2024.3.29)  20 JUN 2024 08:30
@Bml amsbook then:-0
@yo' what is the latex banner (the tex version not so important)
8:32 AM
@yo' you would get the same there too. As soon as a system which allows the use of "extensions" in some sense reaches a certain size and age you start to get clashes. There always will be some package that no longer works after an update. The main question is if user accept that ("it is still beta and changes are excepted") or complain.
Bml
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@DavidCarlisle OK... This is a book to be read digitally, not printed, however....
@Bml then why use A4?
@DavidCarlisle well a format from 2024.3.29 probably won't use a latex from june ;-)
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Bml
@mickep I don't know... So I should use amsbook, right?
@DavidCarlisle Wow... It takes a lot to compile!
@Bml That is also for documents that will be printed. I don't know about the right latex classes for documents that shall be read on screen, though.
Bml
Bml
8:41 AM
@DavidCarlisle I'm afraid it doesn't compile, is there any particular reason?
Bml
Bml
8:56 AM
@DavidCarlisle I've been compiling for 16 minutes, I can't get the PDF with amsbook...
@Bml Has it hung?
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@JosephWright I don't know...
@Bml Is the terminal output showing page numbers appearing?
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@JosephWright This is the last thing it is showing:
(C:\Users\mikij\AppData\Local\Programs\MiKTeX\tex/latex/ragged2e\ragged2e.sty) [1{C:/Users/mikij/AppData/Local/MiKTeX/fonts/map/pdftex/pdftex.map}{C:/Users/mikij/AppData/Local/Programs/MiKTeX/fonts/enc/dvips/lm/lm-ec.enc}] [2]
yo'
yo'
@DavidCarlisle ah sorry, stupid me of course
LaTeX2e <2023-11-01> patch level 1
L3 programming layer <2024-03-14>
9:00 AM
@Bml Ah, have you got MiKTeX trying to install a package somehwere? Sometimes you might miss the dialog box
@yo' ah so not June at all, OK main thiing is if you take the 2024-06-01 release make sure your get PL1 as otherwise tabularx colortbl tabulary etc all have some extra undocumented features
yo'
yo'
@UlrikeFischer Yeah, I know what you mean. (It wasn't meant as a complaint towards LaTeX, just as an observation.) The thing with introducing a new package incompability is that we have to test again, document it etc., which introduces another delays, and meanwhile, another important package updates, which we decide to (or not to) include, which introduces new ... Well, it's a spiral, and you just hope you get up and not down :-)
Bml
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@JosephWright No, not in this situation...
@yo' It's possible of course that pdfx will never get updates ...
@Bml amsbook is like amsrart but has \chapter` just like book relates to article but has \chapter, there is almost no other difference
9:02 AM
@Bml Well if you are sure: make a MWE
yo'
yo'
@JosephWright Yeah I know, but we still need to document the change, make sure that any templates that use it stay on the old TeX Live version etc.
Bml
Bml
@JosephWright How should I do it?
@DavidCarlisle So, how to solve the problem about "sectsty"?
@Bml The usual way: make a copy of your doc, cut parts out systematically until it compiles, then add back in until you know exactly what causes the issue
@Bml make a real question but actually I only suggested you use the size of the text block that the ams use, you don't necessarily have to use their class.
Bml
Bml
@DavidCarlisle OK, and what is the size of text block used by the AMS?
9:09 AM
@yo' πάντα ῥεῖ ;-)
2
Bml
Bml
9:41 AM
I have posted the question on the main site.
@DavidCarlisle Comforting to know that some things never change :)
@samcarter except changes forced when someone breaks my packages
@DavidCarlisle very rude to break your flawless packages!
9:58 AM
@samcarter quite so
yo'
yo'
10:13 AM
@UlrikeFischer :-)
@yo' Προσοχή Τρώες που φέρουν δώρα
yo'
yo'
@DavidCarlisle Μιλάω όλες τις γλώσσες που μιλά ο David Carlislie
@yo' you can but try
10:36 AM
@UlrikeFischer if you kill the xetex job and re-run, it works so the written aux file seems Ok but it loops somewhere if not already set up
@UlrikeFischer spot the difference; first run: \@abspage@last ->1073741823 second run \@abspage@last ->12
@DavidCarlisle where do you see the large @abspage@last?
@UlrikeFischer put \tracingmacros3 just before \end{document} run xelatex and kill it before the log file fills your disk (emacs warned me it was 80Mib when I looked:-)
@UlrikeFischer oh actually on a firstrun with luatex (which does end cleanly) it is also big \@abspage@last ->1073741823 so that isn't the real issue
@DavidCarlisle when I use an aux with only \gdef \@abspage@last{1} (it loops with one page too) it still loops.
but it works if I add the label for graphic size: \new@label@record{__tag_graphic_7}{{xpos}{-12087}{ypos}{12997077}{abspage}{1}}.
10:52 AM
@UlrikeFischer why does luatex say \tl_if_exist:cTF #1->\if_cs_exist:w #1\cs_end: \__cs_if_exist_c_aux: \__prg_TF_true:w \fi: \use_ii:nn and xelatex say \tl_if_exist:cTF #1->\if_cs_exist:w #1\cs_end: \__cs_if_exist_c_aux:w \fi: \use_none:n {#1}\if_false: \__prg_TF_true:w \fi: \use_ii:nn
@DavidCarlisle where is that?
@DavidCarlisle Probably because LuaTeX has \lastnamedcs
@UlrikeFischer to get something closer I compared tracingmacros log of the first run with luatex and with xetex
%   For the |c| form we firstly check if it is in the hash table and
%   then for \cs{scan_stop:} so that we do not add it to the hash table
%   unless it was already there. Here we have to be careful as the text
%   to be skipped if the first test is false may contain tokens that
%   disturb the scanner. Therefore, we ensure that the second test is
%   performed after the first one has concluded completely.
%    \begin{macrocode}
\cs_if_exist:NTF \tex_lastnamedcs:D
  {
    \prg_gset_conditional:Npnn \cs_if_exist:c #1 { p , T , F , TF }
@DavidCarlisle ^^^
@JosephWright yes suspected as much, but after that things are... different and in an 80Mb log random unrelated differences mean tracing is more effort than i have time for this morning:-)
11:30 AM
@UlrikeFischer how bad is my answer here? Will stuff break? tex.stackexchange.com/a/720984/1090
yo'
yo'
@UlrikeFischer Please, have you received the message 4 days ago?
@DavidCarlisle well "if you are interesting in tagging", then they wouldn't use pdfx anyway (or I would suppress loading).
@UlrikeFischer there is that...
@UlrikeFischer Is the tagging from Ross now completely obsolete?
11:46 AM
@UlrikeFischer I got a tick so the answer must be perfect
3
@mickep he uses it, but the code is not public.
@UlrikeFischer Ohh, secrets.
@DavidCarlisle why does rollback error on the example?
12:29 PM
@DavidCarlisle I know now why it loops
@DavidCarlisle I just realized that the tick mark and the down vote buttons are close to each other. Could be a coincidence...
12:51 PM
@UlrikeFischer no idea,I didn't look, I started by removing the rollback.
@mickep as you are being so rude to me, I won't mention that you are being discussed in secret conversations elsewhere.
@DavidCarlisle :)
@DavidCarlisle Oh, haha, it was just an observation.
(I can come up with more interesting topics to discuss...)
@mickep spacing in opentype math layout, for example?
@DavidCarlisle More interesting, yes.
@mickep you have secret mail
1:14 PM
@DavidCarlisle Thanks! You can also point him to the math manual (pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/mathincontext-screen.pdf) as well as the low-level documents and other articles etc... Everything that is written eventually ends up in the context distribution. Hans hides it well from LaTeX users.
@mickep thanks I knew I'd seen a math manual somewhere:-)
@mickep -- amsart is thinking about the printed journal; letter paper or A4 doesn't matter at all, except to an author who is going to print the resulting document locally.
@barbarabeeton Indeed, so the text block is the important part...
@mickep is it corrected now? When I looked at it a few days ago parts of the text was missing in adobe reader.
@UlrikeFischer That was an Adobe feature... Yes, now even commercial browsers seems to work. If not, please tell.
(handlig of type3 fonts...)
1:33 PM
@mickep looks better, but for the paper version arlington reports an error: Error: inheritable required key does not exist: Resources (PageObject) in PDF 1.7
1:48 PM
@UlrikeFischer Thanks, will look.
2:14 PM
@UlrikeFischer ah I see you did look...
@DavidCarlisle yes ;-)
@UlrikeFischer sometimes, it's better not to know:-)
@DavidCarlisle well it means we can not recommend to rollback currently.
2:34 PM
@UlrikeFischer yes we should fix, I guess that means PL2 even though it would only need a change in latexrelease.sty
@UlrikeFischer It looks like the Resources field is now also required for PDF 1.7, in contrary to what is stated here.
2:51 PM
@mickep the error says PageObject, and so I thought in some Page the Resources are missing and not some XObject?
@UlrikeFischer Hm, ok, in any case I get a green light now here, so it got added.
3:08 PM
(maybe we did not get the same error)
3:35 PM
Following up on the request of @cfr in tex.stackexchange.com/questions/720953/…, I post my question here in chat:
Comments from the experts in Dutch typographic traditions on the proper quotation marks for csquotes in LaTeX are kindly requested in github.com/josephwright/csquotes/issues/71 . Everyone else is kindly asked to ignore this topic.
@AlMa1r Imho the number of dutch in the chat is rather low, and the number of experts in dutch typography is even smaller. Beside this I think that the quotes used in the official EU site op.europa.eu/en/web/eu-vocabularies/formex/… are good as default and everything else can be handled through a style.
3:54 PM
@UlrikeFischer In my opinion, this Web site has typo for Dutch. Of course, my experience is very limited, and I might be wrong, but in the main online Dutch newspapers, whenever I saw high-high double quotation marks, these were ””, and not “”.
4:06 PM
@AlMa1r sorry but I will not discuss dutch real life here. My argument is purely formal: an official source gives these quotes, and unless you come up with some more official source it is imho ok if Joseph choose that as default.
4:41 PM
@DavidCarlisle me and easybook too ;-)
@UlrikeFischer :-)
 
2 hours later…
6:29 PM
@DavidCarlisle Regarding the mail, working with luatex and leaving xetex sounds like a good idea if there ever shall be unicode math as default. Also, tagging works mostly for xetex, right?
6:46 PM
@mickep tagging sort of half works in xetex but is mostly broken as it doesn't mark spaces with real space chars so they get lost...
@mickep but it's used a lot so dropping it might not be popular (but we could re-envigorate github.com/latex3/xxetex which might be xetex's future in practice)
6:58 PM
@DavidCarlisle Oh, and that is not something that easily is changed?
@DavidCarlisle Ah, so xetex in disguise. :)
@mickep it would need someone to take over maintenance of the xetex sources who was prepared to spend more than 5 minutes a year on it.
7:40 PM
@DavidCarlisle hehe, is it that bad?
7:59 PM
@mickep if we could get a really good replacement for xetex interchartokens in luatex then luatex would be able to do everything xetex can do at which point no one really wants to put in the effort to supporting xetex, so it's probably doomed in the end
@DavidCarlisle Oh, is that interchartoken thingy used a lot?
@mickep Yes - a major reason people use XeTeX
8:19 PM
@JosephWright OK, mainly to switch between languages?
8:40 PM
@mickep that and (probably most importantly) addng space/break points in Chinese in xecjk and releated packages
@mickep any particular use case you can probably do with a suitable Lua callback iterating over the nodes adding stuff, but they trigger at a different time and so simply updating thousands of lines of chinese documented code using interchartoks to not use them is a bit taxing
@DavidCarlisle Did anything ever become of this?
@mickep it's probably simpler to add the mechanism to luatex than modify the macros not to use it although I know Hans wasn't keen back then
@AlanMunn yes: github.com/latex3/xxetex but it's close but not a drop in replacement so you can't take big packages like xecjk and have them simply work
@AlanMunn xxetex though uses an emulation by Henri as Taco's implementation you link to uses a luatex feature that got removed and hasn't been available since luatex 1.0
@DavidCarlisle I see. Is there some particular technical difficulty in providing a drop-in replacement?
@AlanMunn probably not if you just port the xetex code to C and add to luatex (it's not a lot of code) but that means persuading the luatex developers that that would be a good idea, it's really the opposite direction of travel for luatex which mostly moves weird processing to customisable Lua not baked in new tex primitives, but if xetex compatibility is a concern (which it really isn't for context, but is for latex) then that would be the way to do it I think
@DavidCarlisle Makes sense.
8:52 PM
@DavidCarlisle Oh, I know nothing about Chinese.
@mickep 不是每个人都能成为伟大的语言学家
@AlanMunn just you and me, I suppose ^^
@DavidCarlisle luatex is frozen, right?
@mickep it could be thawed a bit
@mickep or when latex needed harfbuzz luatex became luahbtex so it could be forked again to luahbplussmallbitsofxetex
@DavidCarlisle But some can...
9:08 PM
@DavidCarlisle Yes, forking could be an option of course.
@DavidCarlisle Or just brib^H^H^H^Hconvince luigi.
@mickep but not ideal unless like the hb fork the current maintainers support it as well
@mickep exactly
9:21 PM
@DavidCarlisle ooh German.
Wait, this isn't German. You tricked me!
@Skillmon @JosephWright @DavidCarlisle Hello, I have a request for the \keys_precompile:neN variant, but I already made a request for documentation in the latex3 repo :(
@PabloGonzálezL You know that you can open more than a single conversation on GH? Also, you could first test the waters here in chat by explaining what "a request" should mean in this context.
So I'll try to explain it here (let's see if your heart softens:)... I have a function adapted from a code that @Skillmon gave me and I use it as \keys_precompile:neN {⟨module ⟩} {⟨\filte_keys: n {#1} ⟩} ⟨tl var ⟩
@Skillmon Every time I try to explain something it doesn't fit me well, English doesn't have as many words as Spanish and the translator gives me heavy heads from time to time :(
@PabloGonzálezL if you have a good use case, I guess asking for a keys_precompile_filtered:nnnN on GH could lead to something, note though that this would not use the same filter-method as my code back then, but would use groups.
(though better wait for a team member to give their own view -- don't forget I'm just some random bloke opening the occasional PR, not a team member)
(and now, I'm random-walking to bed, wish me luck that I reach the bed before dawn)
@Skillmon I've never used groups, and I got by with the function you gave me the other day (which basically works for almost everything I need)...
@Skillmon Jjajajja
@Skillmon And here I found another case usage (tex.stackexchange.com/a/705772/7832)
9:39 PM
@UlrikeFischer I understand; this makes sense. It was also not my intention to discuss anything here but to make sure all arguments appear in the referenced github issue. And as I see three equal quotation-marks pairs in the three columns on the Web page you linked, I smell something fishy there. Persumably, a typo or the three given categories are not an adequate way of representing the usage of quotation marks in Dutch.
@UlrikeFischer For example, take a look at the row for German; I'd expect »…« to appear somewhere, at least in the thrid column. But no, they write „…“, ‚…‘, and again ‚…‘.
@AlMa1r that is correct. We do not use guillemets in the third level, only sometimes as first level, and then the second level are single guillemets.
10:02 PM
@UlrikeFischer In i.hood.de/images/52694/526945322.jpg you see the guillemets on the back cover of a German translation „Das Spiel ist aus“ of Sartre's book „Les jeux sont faits“. They are used the French way (which I believe to be a typesetter's mistake or choice), but they are used. The ISBN is 9783499100598.
@UlrikeFischer the idea of having rules for these things is so alien
@UlrikeFischer So this could be an example of inadequacy of the current separation into three levels where each level contains only one entry.
@AlMa1r sure but this is not on the third level. guillemets on the first level are quite common.
@DavidCarlisle there aren't "rules" here, more traditions.
@UlrikeFischer Concerning your “not in the third level”, do you have a reference for this? In de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillemets I see, „Im … Regelwerk … ist nicht festgelegt, wann deutsche Anführungszeichen und wann Guillemets verwendet werden sollen. Beide Möglichkeiten stehen gleichwertig nebeneinander. Im Duden Band 9 … werden die deutschen Anführungszeichen der Hand- und Maschinenschrift zugeordnet, die Guillemets … dem deutschen Schriftsatz …. Die DIN 5008 sieht … beides als korrekt an.“
@UlrikeFischer You can also say, „by experience“—this would also be fine.
Anyway, I also didn't want to discuss this issue in the chat live here too, not for Dutch, and not for German. So let's forget this.
10:40 PM
@UlrikeFischer ah I was imagining the German DIN standards police descending on you for quoting in French style and confiscating your keyboard
10:59 PM
@DavidCarlisle no they only complain if I use english style ;-)

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