@DavidCarlisle I've uploaded and refactored my old GitHub Gist.

This still has to be converted into an INITeX format.

@HenriMenke thanks, just remember, if anything goes wrong, blame @UlrikeFischer

@HenriMenke do you want me to set up something similar to the xpdftex setup?

@DavidCarlisle Yes, that would be great. Some things are a bit tricky, because it's not possible to dump Lua code into the format.

Not too sure how to set this up correctly with \everyjob

@HenriMenke yes, playing with everyjob.... (or eventually could try to byte compile everything and dump the compiled strings then you only need to use that in everyjob not reload files, but reloading is what we do (mostly) for lualatex

@HenriMenke I'll look but day job calls first so may be this evening

@DavidCarlisle Thanks, no problem.

@DavidCarlisle, @HenriMenke I might take a look over my lunch break

@DavidCarlisle I think we are likely to go with this plan somehow ... does seem a lot cleaner than the 'work with all the engines' one ...

@DavidCarlisle Also, xxetex should be easier to handle for expl3, etc., but will defo need the right backend loading

@JosephWright @HenriMenke I suspect for xxetex we might want to go for lualatex+emulation rather than \@@!directlua hiding stuff. for xpdftex disabling engine utf8 and system fonts mean you don't want packages going luatex paths by mistake but here most things will just work as lualatex and we just need a few xetex emulations on top

@JosephWright I assume we don't want back end set up using dvi and xdvipdfmx ? and just use (pdf) luatex backends?

@DavidCarlisle Interesting question: presumably we need to be in DVI mode so xdvipdfmx

@DavidCarlisle Yes, that sounds like a reasonable model - the requirements are very different

@DavidCarlisle The starting point with fonts, etc., much closer together so actually xxetex could probably work with only a minor effort starting with @HenriMenke's code and then making it 'packagable'

@JosephWright I'm tempted to avoid that if we can, even if conceptually it's a more complete emulation

@DavidCarlisle I can see the point: might also link to tagging as I think xdvipdfmx has some fundamental issues with spaces, etc. (@UlrikeFischer?)

@DavidCarlisle Let's see where we get to

@JosephWright I'm not sure I was just thinking about this, but imho real spaces should work in dvi mode too, after all they are inserted while we wander over the nodes, so before the backend. But dropping xdvipdfmx could mean that color stacks could start to work ;-)

@UlrikeFischer But as a migration path for older docs, ruling out a small number that rely entirely on DVI mode in return for being able to treat 'as LuaTeX' seems reasonable

What will come after xxetex? xxetexx?

@HenriMenke Checkins look good

@HenriMenke, @DavidCarlisle I think keeping \directlua exposed here makes most sense, as suggested: it's really 'LuaTeX with a few XeTeX primitives' rather than the xpdftex 'pretend to be a different engine' plan

@JosephWright agreed

@DavidCarlisle did you know that the footnote package contains the line \let\rule\@gobbletwo somewhere in its processing and can you image what it can do to the pagecolor? ;-(

@UlrikeFischer see chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/62850087#62850087

@DavidCarlisle ;-). I don't think that it will lead often to a problem (the report from Doris needed a combination of H-float and savenotes to hit the right place to do harm) but imho the easiest to avoid it would be to use \@rule[\z@] instead of \rule in the graphics-def files.

@yo' in an overleaf project there is .dbx-file (a datamodel for biblatex) but it is not possible to edit it, overleaf says no preview available. How can one tell overleaf that it is a simple text file? (no problems with bbx and cbx).

@UlrikeFischer cant footnote package not be fixed to avoid breakig stuff?

@UlrikeFischer We have a whitelist of extensions, but renaming the file to one of these won't correct it. The solution for non-standard extensions is to start it as a text file and copy-paste the contents, this way it will be kept as an editable text file. (Unless you use some intergrations like Dropbox that can still break it unfortunately :( )

@DavidCarlisle well it is from 1997, and it is also rather careful (I still don't know how the combination managed to get the definition into the shipout):

\def\spewnotes{%
  \endgroup%
  \if@savingnotes\else\ifvoid\fn@notes\else\begingroup%
    \let\@makefntext\@empty%
    \let\@finalstrut\@gobble%
    \let\rule\@gobbletwo%
    \@footnotetext{\unvbox\fn@notes}%
  \endgroup\fi\fi%
}

@yo' öh. Start how? first a test.txt with the content and then rename to test.dbx?

@UlrikeFischer even start as test.dbx should do I hope

(sorry I'm busy now, will be back in ~1h)

@yo' ah, seems to work, thanks.

@UlrikeFischer \@footnotetext must be doing \par, I guess

TeeXbook, exercise 14.8 - why is \ck defined as \def\ck/{\discretionary{k-}{k}{ck}} and not as \def\ck/{\discretionary{k-}{}{c}k}?

fosstodon.org/@context/109756241765016606

^^^ any way to shorten it by 4 pages?

@samcarter easier to add 28271 ;-)

...friggin' math 😜...

@Rmano acceptable solution :)

Forget about it - with \def\ck/{\discretionary{k-}{}{c}k} the combination ck could not be treated as a ligature when using Fraktur/Blackletter.

@samcarter Oh, I have to add pages to reach that goal...

@mickep :)

Hello, is it possible to draw filled polygons with picture environment?

@samcarter one for you ^

@DavidCarlisle Is \renewenvironment{picture}{\begin{tikzpicture}{\end{tikzpicture}} a valid solution?

@youthdoo there are longer answers, but a reasonable short answer would be, no use tikz or pstricks

@DavidCarlisle Aren't you the one with a picture gold badge?

@DavidCarlisle Or MetaPost <3.

@mickep no I have a tikz gold badge, I must be an expert

That's okay. I just hate using tikz with expl3...

@youthdoo Can you show a sketch of the result you have in mind? Maybe then it is easier to suggest suitable tools.

@youthdoo You could use l3draw :)

@youthdoo you could use l3draw if you are

@DavidCarlisle so slow :)

@samcarter too fast for me

@DavidCarlisle Seems good. I'll learn about it. One last question, does it have the feature mentioned above?

@youthdoo well yes but it is more like pgf than tikz so you have basic draw and fill operations but no friendly syntax (yet) above that.

What is wrong with tikz and expl3?

@mickep tikz

@mickep The missing \begin{picture}...\end{picture}?

@DavidCarlisle Ooh, no.

@samcarter Ooh no!

@youthdoo of course you don't need a package at all

\documentclass{article}

\begin{document}

xxx
\pdfliteral{
0 0 m
100 0 l
100 100 l
f
}
\end{document}

@mickep TikZ uses a space in many of its key-names, which looks not-so-good inside the expl-syntax, but otherwise everything should be fine™.

Searching whether there is a hepburn input system in LaTeX turns out to be a bad idea. Don't google "hepburn latex"!

@Skillmon you were warned: tex.stackexchange.com/a/94910/1090

@DavidCarlisle yes, I was indeed.

@Skillmon aha, that makes more sense than the previous answer. 🤷🏻‍♂️

@HenriMenke @JosephWright ^

Hi all, I'm wondering if anybody here has the Minion Math fonts and would be willing to compile & screenshot a handful of equations for me. Context: I've so far used Minion Pro/Libertinus Math for my thesis, am contemplating whether to get a license for Minion Math, and would like to test a bit before I buy. (Given the money, I'd like for it to be a significant improvement.)

@DavidCarlisle learning the alphabet??

and then there was color github.com/latex3/xxetex/commit/…