TeX, LaTeX and Friends

@JosephWright I did wonder if button texts ought to be localised as well, but maybe leave that for a bit, I guess that's what happens on other sites though

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Yes, I guess so: I'd really like to get the money sorted so I can agree timing with Jonas at this stage

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda would you expect copy edit etc to change language?

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle yes. :)

David Carlisle

10:30 AM

@PauloCereda I'll set that up possibly at weekend, it's not entirely trivial as currently all the localisation is in the the jekyll templating and the buttons are added by common javascript code that currently has no idea, but I can see basically what needs doing.

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle leave things be and blame @UlrikeFischer? :)

yo'

@barbarabeeton thanks, replied!

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda Guter Plan

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ooh Deutschlokalization

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda the alternative would be to iconise them so the pencil thing for edit and the overlapping rectangles for copy, but I guess even then they ought to have localised alt-texts so it doesn't really avoid making them language dependent

Paulo Cereda

10:35 AM

@DavidCarlisle That's also a possibility...

Joseph Wright

Everyone got the latest latex-dev?

@yo' Me too

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright oh no what's the catch now

/quacks in despair

David Carlisle

@barbarabeeton oh I see amsart knows about msc2020 at last:-)

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda Pre-loaded xparse

@DavidCarlisle Yay!

Ulrike Fischer

10:53 AM

@JosephWright yes:

\documentclass{article}
\NewDocumentCommand\blub{}{Hello xparse}

\begin{document}
\blub
\end{document}

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer :)

@UlrikeFischer Next, color ;)

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright ooh you naughty L3 team

David Carlisle

@JosephWright hyperref

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright can I somehow trigger the "backend detection"? I want to move the various backend commands in external files and then load e.g. l3pdfmode-pdf at the end of pdfresources.sty to test if the order is ok.

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Needs color: @UlrikeFischer and I are on it

David Carlisle

11:04 AM

@JosephWright yes (well it doesn't need colour unless you are particularly fond of tables of contents with red boxes around all the text:-)

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer \sys_load_backend:n{}

@DavidCarlisle I've literally just added support for more colour models :)

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle but the interface must be there for the people who want lime green borders ;-). What would be a good default for links etc? No coloring at all?

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer I refer you to your question on site about that

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle yes I would use one these color sets. But should color be on at all by default? And then which one? link border color or text color?

Frank is in closing mode ;-)

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Yup

David Carlisle

11:15 AM

@UlrikeFischer I meant henry ford:-) but it's tricky people are used to gaudy defaults

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Speaking of hyperref, I'll merge that branch I created for pdfnames

@UlrikeFischer I guess I'll put in a PR to move l3color to the kernel

David Purton

I heard there is a tradition with people related to TeX to paying bounties for finding errors. :) Surely this applies to the new learnlatex.org, right? :)

One of the examples on the tables page:

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{array}

\begin{document}
\begin{tabular}{cp{9cm}}
\toprule

Needs booktabs

David Carlisle

11:35 AM

@DavidPurton we'll pass you @PauloCereda's credit card number, take what you want

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle oh no

David Carlisle

@DavidPurton I'll fix thanks

@DavidPurton 307c811..07cccc3 master -> master

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle the more-08 is missing booktabs too.

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer I really should set up a script to test all examples (including translation) (@JosephWright)

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Yes, if possible

@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer Wow, ltnews32 is pretty long: whod'd have thought we'd fix so much stuff

David Carlisle

11:47 AM

@JosephWright probably easiest to do it locally just write some perl to pull out all the examples and run them.

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright yes, it looks quite like a list. But I found a typo, it should be \@currentcounter not \currentcounter;-(.

cis

12:34 PM

What is the best CJK font ("Chinese Japanese Korean")?

MS Yahei (msyh.ttf) fails with the character U-30EDE
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biangbiang_noodles
which we certainly need very often ... :)

cis

12:53 PM

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle I have adapted zref to use the new \@currentcounter (and it works fine ...). But I don't see a way to setup a test file as the code works only with \@ifl@t@r\fmtversion{2020-10-01}.

Oh I could add the new definition to the test file also in a \@ifl@t@r\fmtversion{2020-10-01}.

David Carlisle

@cis write something in Word or Libreoffice or look at a Chinese webpage, what font do they use?

@cis that page has the notice: This article contains uncommon Unicode characters. Without proper rendering support, you may see question marks, boxes, or other symbols instead of the intended characters.

Paulo Cereda

1:16 PM

@barbarabeeton quack <3

cis

Oh yes, I forgot to say: I get U+30EDE only as error-symbol on the page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biangbiang_noodles

And they say there:

Both the traditional and simplified Chinese characters for biáng were encoded in Unicode, on March 20th, 2020 for Unicode 13.0.0. The code point is U-30EDE for the traditional form (𰻞) and U-30EDD for the simplified form (𰻝).[3]

Does in Linux-systems grab a working font?

(... for U-30EDE)

3

... so write this down on a 1cm-square in a traditional Genko-Yoshi sheet of paper:

:()

David Carlisle

1:35 PM

@cis unicode 13 is not even official yet there may be no font that has that character in that slot yet. No font has all of Unicode anyway.

2

cis

@DavidCarlisle Sure. I need only the CJK-signs. So I hope "MS Yahei" will come out with a new version, which contains that sign. (Because I want a sf-font.)

David Carlisle

@cis well... don't you have it open in fontforge, you could add it to your copy...

@PauloCereda vv

var buttons ={
    "edit":             "editar",
    "copy":             "copiar",
    "Open in Overleaf": "Aberto em Overleaf",
    "LaTeX.Online":     "Latex.Online",
    "Delete Output":    "Excluir saída"
}

??

cis

@DavidCarlisle Yes, I have to find out to put in svg-pictures into Fontforge correctly. But this would not be the correct sanserif-version of that sign anyway.

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle Abrir em Overleaf

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda ah I was most worried about the last one (which back-translated as "Delete exit" :-)

Paulo Cereda

1:49 PM

@DavidCarlisle Well, perhaps Excluir arquivo gerado would be better (delete generated file).

@DavidCarlisle Back-translation is actually accurate. :)

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda "delete generated iframe" in this case,

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle oh no

Ulrike Fischer

edit -> Bearbeiten copy -> Kopieren Open in overleaf: In Overleaf öffnen. I'm not quite sure about the delete, because actually I don't want to delete but to close the output.

Paulo Cereda

How about a link to an English course instead of localising stuff for learnlatex.org?

@DavidCarlisle @JosephWright ^^

Everybody wins

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer yes but "edit the DOM to unlink the HTMLIframe node added by the previous interaction" wouldn't fit in the button

Ulrike Fischer

1:54 PM

@DavidCarlisle yes, but "Ausgabe löschen" sounds odd in german. "Ausgabe schließen" or "Fenster schließen" is better (and it contains an ß ;-) ).

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer Fenster schließen sounds good, is that how you'd describe the red x thing on a top level window?

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle yes that's the standard description for closing a gui window.

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda @UlrikeFischer thanks localised buttons installed except the localised pages have no buttons:-)

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle which also solves the button localisation issue. :)

Alan Munn

2:14 PM

@DavidCarlisle An xspace question. I've added a comment, although maybe I'm off base in the details? tex.stackexchange.com/q/546653/2693

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle should I add an example?

David Carlisle

@AlanMunn i'll look :(

@UlrikeFischer you could translate the help page that has a small example

@UlrikeFischer or at least put the example in the de/help page

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle which rises the question: will we translate the text in the examples later too?

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer fortunately we can generate perfect translations: davidcarlisle.github.io/ll/fr

Ulrike Fischer

Paulo Cereda

2:24 PM

@UlrikeFischer ooh

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer I was thinking probably yes, at least some of the early ones. except that that means introdcuing babel earlier (or even perhaps platex) or bidi or xepersian or something, so i'm not sure (@JosephWright)

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle ooh mon coeur

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer excellent when untested code works:-)

Ulrike Fischer

Should it be "Latex.Online" or "LaTeX.Online"?

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer LaTeX.Online I think (I don't like the dot much and didn't have it originally, the actual site isn't that consistent)

@UlrikeFischer @JosephWright for something like Japanese I was thinking the main body would be "how to write Latin script document" (in Japanese) with extra language-xxx lessons at the end introducing platex etc and Japanese documents so in that case I think the examples probably stay in English

David Purton

2:41 PM

Ah, the downside of using the Debian packages for TeXLive:

63 packages upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 4 not upgraded.
Need to get 2,783 MB of archives. After unpacking 460 MB will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?]

Ulrike Fischer

2:59 PM

@DavidCarlisle we never uploaded zref v2.30 and now I have created v.2.31 ;-(

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle One area we have to think about

Paulo Cereda

@UlrikeFischer ooh

David Carlisle

Frank broke my package :(

4

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle which one?

David Carlisle

github.com/FrankMittelbach/fmitex/issues/…

Ulrike Fischer

3:12 PM

@DavidCarlisle ok with me uploading zref?

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer please do, thanks

wtsnjp

3:26 PM

@PauloCereda Greetings. (I'm new to this chat room and didn't notice this)

Paulo Cereda

@wtsnjp hi! No worries, the chat is a bit confusing. :)

David Carlisle

@wtsnjp you must be new. None of the regulars are ever polite to @PauloCereda

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle oh

David Carlisle

@PauloCereda true though, isn't it?

wtsnjp

@JosephWright I am not sure you'd think it is a good idea to think about CJK languages from this initial stage of the learntex.org translation, but at least when it comes to the stage of actually doing the translations, I am happy to help for Japanese!

Paulo Cereda

3:29 PM

@DavidCarlisle /sad quack

Joseph Wright

@wtsnjp You'll see there is some basic set-up work being done, for example to test iout the structures (@DavidCarlisle is in charge of it)

David Carlisle

@wtsnjp oh thank you, we may come back to you on that. Do you have any initial thoughts on whether the examples should be translated? (I have a feature request to latexonline.cc to support (u)platex)

wtsnjp

@DavidCarlisle For that, I think it is definitely better to translate the examples as well. Otherwise, I'm afraid the translation would not be so much helpful for Japanese beginners...

David Carlisle

@wtsnjp yes that's what I suspect the outcome will be although it may mean that some pages are not a pure translation or will need forward references to language setup. You may be interested in this: davidcarlisle.github.io/ll/ja/language-01

@wtsnjp that ll site is a temporary and unstable test for various things I'm testing for the main site) currently the overleaf link "almost works" and the latexonline link does not work at all (but I have support requests in for both systems)

@wtsnjp or you could use luatex for Japanese examples of course but it would be nice to get (u)platex working as well.

barbara beeton

-- Okay, I do see it on CTAN, but it hasn't been announced on ctan-ann yet. I've compared it with the last released version and am hugely disappointed. There are only two changes: the 2020 MSC, and the header comment, from which the LPPL has been removed and the addition of this statement:
% Unlimited copying and redistribution of this file are permitted as
% long as this file is not modified. Modifications, and distribution
% of modified versions, are permitted, but only if the resulting file

Joseph Wright

3:39 PM

@barbarabeeton Oops

David Carlisle

@barbarabeeton they are likely to get it removed from linux distributions if that is noticed

Paulo Cereda

@DavidCarlisle Frank is mean

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle They'll ge removed from TL if they gone 'off-piste' wth the license

barbara beeton

@JosephWright and @DavidCarlisle -- Doesn't this make it "non-free"? (The LPPL is still stated clearly in the readme file for the amsclass package.)

David Carlisle

@barbarabeeton yes. (in particular according to the Debian and FSF definitions of free software)

Joseph Wright

3:44 PM

@DavidCarlisle But also, if they've had any contributions from others, they are breaking the license conditions of those contributions

@DavidCarlisle Probably we should start a 'TRANSLATORS' file or similar

David Carlisle

@JosephWright yes that's what I was thinking when I re-opened that Vietnamese issue

wtsnjp

@DavidCarlisle Yes, in that case, some additional information about language setting should be added rather than pure translation. I didn't know you're already trying pLaTeX. That example looks nice.

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Cool yes

yo'

@JosephWright I just applied :-)

David Carlisle

@wtsnjp as you may guess I stole that example (from Overleaf I think) I didn't actually write it:-) but I am trying to get it working. The overleaf link works if you edit the project it creates and remove the tex comment at the top of the latexmkrc file.

wtsnjp

3:47 PM

@DavidCarlisle Using LuaTeX should be doable, but in my opinion, it would be better to use (u)pTeX for beginner instruction since LuaTeX is still somehow for advanced users here (for the time being)

David Carlisle

@JosephWright possibly not if they insisted on acquiring copyright on any contributions

barbara beeton

@cis -- Wow! I'll have to try this out! (I understand neither Chinese nor Japanese, but in a "former life" was involved in a project aimed at developing aids to an editor for translations from the Chinese. In the process I became familiar with the "telegraph code", and learned to dissect the strokes of the characters and recognize the radicals; I can still find things in a dictionary arranged according to the radicals.

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle True

Paulo Cereda

@barbarabeeton ooh

barbara beeton

@DavidCarlisle -- I'm sure contributors were never asked about copyright. However, I also can't remember that any "contribution" was ever entered verbatim. I think not. There were and are a huge still unresolved collection of bug reports. (@DavidCarlisle knows what these are like, since he was the recipient of the whole mess of them for amsmath. I'm sure of this, because I was the collector.)

David Carlisle

4:01 PM

@barbarabeeton yes the development model doesn't really encourage contribution:-)

kauray

4:11 PM

is there a way to \noindent within \paragraph*{} ?

David Carlisle

@kauray you should never need \noindent and \paragraph headings are not usually indented so it isn't clear what you mean?

kauray

I want a paragraph to not be indented at the start

but that paragraph is depicted within \paragraph{}

David Carlisle

@kauray as I say \paragraph headings are not indented unless you are doing something strange?

@kauray what do you mean by "within" here? \paragraph is like \section the argument just takes the heading not the text of the paragraph.

kauray

@DavidCarlisle The heading was multi line

For that reason it had somehow become indented

It is no longer indented now

David Carlisle

@kauray er having a multi-line run-in heading is a bit strange but OK:-)

kauray

4:17 PM

so multi line headings get indented?

David Carlisle

@kauray I don't think so, I just don't think Ive ever seen a \paragraph heading that took more than one line in 30 years of latex use though

kauray

cool, mine ended up indented

:P

David Carlisle

@kauray as you've shown no code, I really can't guess what is happening

kauray

its okay, i may have messed up somehwere, its a big file

David Carlisle

@kauray see no indent:

\documentclass{article}

\begin{document}

\paragraph*{Some very  very  very  very  very  very
 very  very  very  very  long text long text long text
 long text long text long text}
the rest of the paragraph the rest of the paragraph
the rest of the paragraph the rest of the paragraph
the rest of the paragraph the rest of the paragraph
the rest of the paragraph the rest of the paragraph



an indented paragraph an indented paragraph
an indented paragraph an indented paragraph
an indented paragraph an indented paragraph

kauray

4:23 PM

yup, like i said, must have messed up somewhere

yo'

@DavidCarlisle Funny issue with graphicx and subfiles: the graphics file is found, but isn't included.

(but I broke something really)

David Carlisle

@yo' rm -r subfiles

yo'

@DavidCarlisle :D

yo'

5:21 PM

@DavidCarlisle went with TEXINPUTS :D

cis

@barbarabeeton I think this biang biang (noodles) Kanji, with 58 strokes, is not even the most extreme.
...
...
...
...

========================

Does anyone know the most extreme kanji with the most strokes?

samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz

6:17 PM

@cis cotoacademy.com/the-most-difficult-japanese-kanji says there is one with 84 strokes

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

@UlrikeFischer finally managing to take a look at the German translations. First thing I notice: I'd use "LaTeX-Dokument" instead of "LaTeX Dokument".

@UlrikeFischer in de/language-01.md, I'd use "Besonderheiten für die deutsche Sprache" instead of "Besonderheiten für Deutsch".

Paulo Cereda

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz oh my

Ulrike Fischer

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz done ...

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

6:34 PM

@UlrikeFischer lesson-11.md I'd prefer "Formatierung: Schriften und Abstände", but no strong opinion here.

@UlrikeFischer lesson-13 the direct translation "Längere Dokumente strukturieren" might make more sense (but I didn't read the English lesson, so am not sure about the scope, the current translation might be more fitting)

cis

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz Ui.... I see 3 radicals, each applied 3 times.
I find mine (U+30EDE) almost more difficult.

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

@UlrikeFischer else the headings look good.

samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz

@PauloCereda I wonder what the average writing speed for such stuff is

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz first approximation: it takes $\infty$ seconds.

samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz

@cis You did not ask for the most difficult one but for most strokes :)

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz yeah, that sounds right. Exactly the time it takes me to write one of them

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

6:46 PM

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz my Japanese teacher said the longest she knows was for a specific dragon...

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz but I don't recall how many strokes it was.

cis

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz Yes, thats true. The llegend says that this is a surname kanji. For surnames, Japanese usually use an (official) stamp, for signing, etc.

David Carlisle

7:28 PM

one bug fix every 20 years isn't too bad, especially when its not even my bug:-)

% \changes{v3.01}{1999/06/22}{Added better pdfTeX support
% by Scott Pakin, from graphics/3063}
% \changes{v3.02}{2020/05/28}{delay saving \cs{@makefcolumn} gh340}

cis

7:41 PM

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz I can give a hint for my Kanji: He wrote it in 25sec.
----------> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m__zcZFSny4&t=115s

U+30EDE

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz
I also heard this story: So where is this Kanji with that evil dragon?

Skillmon likes topanswers.xyz

@cis no idea, it's been 4 years...

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle ;-) the next change will be to remove/hide this curious reference to \pdfpageattr.

@DavidCarlisle and triggered by this I wrote an alternative for pdflscape: instead of 250 lines it has only 10 lines of code and does the same ;-).

David Carlisle

7:57 PM

@UlrikeFischer yes I saw that just as I was doing this:-)

Paulo Cereda

8:12 PM

quack

cis

8:30 PM

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz Seems it is one and the same:

たいと(taito) is the most difficult Japanese Kanji on the record with a total of 84 strokes. It is formed by combining 3 雲 (くもkumo) with 3 龍 (りゅうRyuu). 雲means cloud and 龍 means dragon in English.11.04.2019

google.com/…

@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz

It has U+3106C and is not in my font 'MS Yahei' too.

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz @samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz

If you start from the statement that it is an exceptional kanji that usually stands for a surname. Would the way of speaking normally be given in Hiragana syllables above (or to the right of) the Kanji, e.g. in a newspaper or similar.

With the additional information, the Japanese can then read it; they couldn't write it because they didn't learn it.
However, if you consider that it breaks down into 3x3 simpler radicals, a look at the Kanji should be enough for them to be able to write it.

yo'

8:48 PM

Had a double internet outage, but it seems both landline and mobile are back up :-)

barbara beeton

8:59 PM

@cis -- not 3x3 There are indeed three sub-kanji, alternating. The one at the top is expanded horizontally. And what I've learned about the smaller hiragana that gives the pronunciation is that it is referred to (in typesetting terms) as "ruby". (I'll have to look for my Japanese dictionary to see what I can learn about the individual pieces.)

AlexG

9:40 PM

@cis This my most difficult kanji:

Transcript for

$TeX - LaTeX$ TeX, LaTeX and Friends