2 hours later…
10:06 AM
I need to use the package natbib. I want to have a citation of the form [number] in certain places, normally citations are handled by superscripts. I can use \citenum, but that omits the square brackets. If I insert them by hand (namely, [\citenum{key}]), there is spacing between the brackets and the number. How can I remove the spacing?

10:19 AM
Okay, found a way. Sorry to bother!

@Kiro oh you are always welcome to poke the chatroom residents! It just happens sometimes people are not around. :)

11:14 AM
@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer, @PhelypeOleinik PL2 sent

@JosephWright Cool! Hopefully I didn't break any other part of \usepackage to require a third one :)

@PhelypeOleinik Soon find out

12:28 PM
2
@DavidCarlisle ^^ goose advices

4 hours later…
4:41 PM
@PauloCereda That's a big lunch plus a sandwich!

@StefanKottwitz oh no

5:42 PM
Quiet here today.

quaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack

quack back

@PauloCereda QUACK

@JosephWright you have a caps quack key on the UK keyboard? wow

@JosephWright ooh a duck

5:56 PM
I got caps lock

And... Adobe just got a PDF LIKE A BOSS ad in the last TB? Are they trying to sound, dunno, cool?

it's a US keyboard with caps lock (test: LOCK him up)

The guy in the ad looks very proud of his WordArt + Comic Sans. :)

@PauloCereda the perfect combination

1 hour later…
7:10 PM
@StefanKottwitz peace was never an option.
Do you guys think rewriting the menukeys package without catoptions is a good idea? I'd call it speisekartenschluessel.

@Skillmon probably yes, at least some suggestions for code changes to the author would be fine. I looked at it some time ago, but hadn't really the time. Basically (apart from a few small trivial changes) the \tw@define@menu@macro must be rewritten.

@UlrikeFischer Yes, I took a quick look during a bus ride today. Most things could be solved by doing \cs_new_eq:NN to some expl3 function.
@UlrikeFischer But the package has a gem I think is very unnecessarily complicated:
    \expandafter\cptrobustify\csname\expandafter\@gobble\string#1\endcsname

@Skillmon imho the main problem to implement is that the list parser handle \  as separator.

@UlrikeFischer might be possible with \tl_to_str:n, but I really don't have an idea how exactly catoptions does handle such things.

@Skillmon well it is imho around 8 years old, so one should take this as youth sins - I don't doubt that my old code has such gems too.
@Skillmon I wouldn't try to emulate catoptions. As long as the function is there, it should be fine.

7:24 PM
@UlrikeFischer yes, mine as well (just look at ducksay, version 1 in particular, but version 2 still has some oddities regarding l3style)
@UlrikeFischer it was meant as "I would do it that way", I have no idea how catoptions does it. That might really be educating.

7:35 PM
@UlrikeFischer yep, he is using \detokenize if the separator should be a backslash.

7:53 PM
@UlrikeFischer what is an indris?

@Skillmon I guess you don't want to hear that it is a lemur?

@UlrikeFischer No. catoptions defines an \indrisloop, and I think this name is very non-speaking. Maybe I'm missing out on something obvious here.

@Skillmon yes I know, I already wondered about the name too ;-)

@UlrikeFischer all in all, it is just some \seq_set_split:Nnn and \seq_map:Nn combination (but with setting conditionals for the first item etc.)

Anyone else considering changing from master to main for their Git repos?

8:09 PM
@JosephWright I'm considering changing from master to MASTER :)

@Skillmon :)
@Skillmon 'Messes with all sorts of stuff'
@Skillmon I looked, no idea ...

@JosephWright turns out it isn't handled by catoptions, but menukeys does check whether the delimiter should be a backslash and if so \detokenizes the input before it is handed to catoptions.

8:26 PM
I think I got menukeys to work without catoptions. Currently testing through the examples in the documentation.

@Skillmon that was fast ;-)

@UlrikeFischer rabbits are fast.

8:55 PM
@JosephWright If I build a stack for the value of a sequence, is it fine to use \seq_push:No \my_seqstack_seq \my_seq and \seq_pop:NN \my_seqstack_seq \my_seq?

@Skillmon Hmm, that's a tricky one: it's really relying on the internal structures - one to ask on LATeX-L for opinions?

@JosephWright I see Frank raging at me :)
@JosephWright mail sent (if I don't have thick fingers)

8
^^ a day away from the computer:-)

@DavidCarlisle playing with bricks? :-)

@StefanKottwitz high point of British architecture: we just haven't invented the roof yet.

9:08 PM
@DavidCarlisle someday I'll manage to go...

@Rmano hour and a half drive from here. a bit further for you?

@DavidCarlisle No, but its like finding a book in an archive: It might be filed correctly, but letting people know it is there is still pretty cool and useful.

@DavidCarlisle weren't they used to compute celestial bodies?

@DavidCarlisle @PauloCereda was there earlier. For nude sunbathing - no blue hat. (British sun I see on his selfie)

@JosephWright Slightly off topic question. How do you cite Acta Cryst articles these days? Do I use the journal name at the time it was published (ie Acta Cryst. as the journal title, and the A or C in the volume number), or do I cite the modern title of the journal as it is today "Acta Crystallogr., Sect. E: Struct. Rep. Online" or "Acta Crystallogr., Sect. A: Found. Adv.,"?

9:12 PM
@DavidCarlisle well, the same plus a 2-hours flight and all the airport and car hire things...

@Canageek The first way: no one uses the longer form

@JosephWright RSC did when I published a paper with them. I had it as the short form and they changed it to the long form before publication.

@Canageek Acta Cryst., A56, ...
@Canageek Odd: it always depends on the editorial staff you get

@DavidCarlisle and, well, driving the other way around. Maybe better a bus...

@JosephWright I mean, for modern papers that form is now wrong, as they have split them into separate journals (probably since everyone kept citing them as separate journals)

9:14 PM
@Canageek That happened before I was born ;)
@Canageek Acta themselves never use the longer form

@JosephWright What? No, that was since I got to grad school. Technically they were one journal before I started, but with letter designated issues (Thus, Acta Cryst, A56), and a few years ago they moved to being separate journals (Thus today: G. M. Sheldrick, Acta Crystallogr., Sect. A: Found. Adv., 2015, 71, 3–8.)

@Canageek A matter of semantics ;) I was thinking of when they split into A, B, C rather than just a single journal (like J Chem Soc splitting into A, B, C, D then Perkin/Dalton/Faraday/Chem Commun)

@JosephWright They've moved their bibtex exporter to use the newer form. Not the full name, but they have moved the A into the Journal field. My issue is they've moved it to that for ALL papers, not just one after they split the journals into ACTUALLY being their own thing. So should I cite all of them in the modern form, or look up what year the split happened and cite them one way before that and one way after

@Canageek Like I said, semantics :) I'd stick to the shorter form exclusively, as that's how they've been cited for ever; it's not like it will confuse anyone
@Canageek I think they'd say the split happened back in the 1960s, like I said :)

@JosephWright That is more work then moving to the longer form, since I can do a find and replace on that, rather then updating each entry by hand....

9:19 PM
@Canageek I never go near journal's own exporters: they tend to be pretty ropy
@Canageek Can't you subset in JabRef or (probably) regex it?

@JosephWright I hand edit them, but they are less likely to make a typo then I am)

@Canageek Hmm, I go for JabRef's DOI import then tidy up: seems to work OK most of the time

@JosephWright Would have to edit the journal line to remove the letter, then the volume line to add it, which would mean using awk and that is just too much work. Also I find the short form confuses people more
(Also using the short form means two of my citations are ONE letter off from one another and then people keep getting them mixed up)

@Canageek I was thinking subset, remove from you main database, then each edit is simply the entire extract, then re-import
@Canageek SHELX?

I'd rather go with G. M. Sheldrick, Acta Crystallogr., Sect. A: Found. Adv., 2015, 71, 3–8. and G. M. Sheldrick, Acta Crystallogr., Sect. C: Struct. Chem., 2015, 71, 3–8.
@JosephWright Yep.

9:22 PM
@Canageek Pretty sure that's not what George says ....
@Canageek How did I guess :)
@Canageek One of my co-workers wanted to use Olex2 refine ... nope

@JosephWright What do you mean? That is Shelxl and Shelxt's citations... I double checked them.

@Canageek I mean that at the end of the SHELX run I think George prints them in the short form

@JosephWright I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes more popular over the next few years. Have you seen George speak? He is about a million years old and can't maintain that codebase forever.

@Canageek Point about them being one journal with subparts is that the volumes run together and from Acta Cryst. 1

@JosephWright Same paper, but he printed that in the old format.

9:24 PM
@Canageek No, I know him only by email and via our (retired) crystallographer who does know him personally
@Canageek Sure, but there is a team nowadays I think, and the FORTRAN is super-reliable
@Canageek My bigger issue is ORTEP as the Olex2 graphics aren't up to it, so I rely on WinGX's build and that's even more complicated legal-wise

@JosephWright I didn't know of a team, the only person I know of who would be on that would be Christian B. Hübschle?
@JosephWright Oh they totally are. Or you could use Mercury. I use one of those two then hand-tweak (well, regex) the POV-Ray file.

@Canageek Sorry, don't agree: of the free systems, only ORETP is up to the job. I think XP is pretty good but I've never got hold of a copy
@Canageek POV-Ray is OK for posters, but for publication I want black-and-white ORTEPS with proper overlap detection
@Canageek There seem to be a few people involved

@JosephWright BLACK AND WHITE o.0

@Canageek Of course

@JosephWright Why?

9:28 PM
@Canageek You obviously never get asked to pay the colour printing charges :)

@JosephWright We don't publish in journals that make us pay money to publish with them

@Canageek Seriously: for molecular systems one can almost always draw a good figure in black-and-white (packing is different), and there's the whole issue of colour and people with colour blindness
@Canageek So no Angewandte ...
@Canageek Or JACS or Dalton or ....

@JosephWright That would be our ONE exception, but 1) After their entire editorial board resigned does anyone?

@Canageek Well fair: I've not had anything going there since the Incident

@JosephWright Dalton doesn't have a fee? I've published with them (and we used my laptop to submit it).

9:30 PM
@Canageek Other Wiley journals are the same (colour charges)
@Canageek For Open Access, yes, which is mandated by my funders

@JosephWright We typically stick to the RSC and ACS. Canadian guidelines don't require open access if you put the preprint online via an institutional archive, which we do (or do in theory, my boss often puts it off). For my 3D printing papers I put them up on ChemrXiv

@Canageek We are allowed something similar from some funders; I really don't like it, as the reason we have journals is to make finding articles easy. (I think asking a reader to chase down the institution of the authors of each paper is a joke: really, that's 'open'???)

@JosephWright The ChemrXiv version shows up first on google for me. I agree ChemrXiv is the better solution for finding the paper. My solution would be mandate that journals link to the institutional version.
@JosephWright But we'd go broke paying to open access all of our papers. \$2K each for a lot of journals as I recall? Times 5-10 papers a year? We'd have to fire a grad student to pay for it.
On topic: All of a sudden things are copying from my thesis like so:  n i t , d u e t o t h e n e c e s s i t y
of h av i n g t o m
an u al l y
ad d
e v e r y
c on n e c t or . An ot h e r d ow n s i d e of
Which also means search doesn't work. What have I done? Happens with microtype turned off, cfr-lm turned off....

@Canageek which pdf viewer?

@UlrikeFischer SumatraPDF

9:41 PM
@Canageek which version?

@UlrikeFischer 3.2
Making a MWE now
Huh, works fine if I don't change any settings, effff

@UlrikeFischer done, the documentation built. I'll open a PR in a few minutes (have to clean up some things).

If the PR is rejected, perhaps I'll really release the speisekartenschluessel package.

@UlrikeFischer Ahhh, So I just need to go back to an older version. OK

9:49 PM
@Canageek Needs to be a 'big band' switch from subscriptions, I think

@JosephWright I mean, I've looked at the ACS income statements. They are NOT hurting for money. I would have no issue with paying journals for access if the prices were fair and reflective of the expense of running them.

catoptions free menukeys: github.com/tweh/menukeys/pull/60
(currently with the crude seq-stack hack)

10:25 PM
@Skillmon I think you should better replace the MM and DD, it errors with it ...