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@JosephWright wow, working on dvips. I wonder if it is worth to ask about better support to add something to the page resources, I currently have no idea what to do there.
@UlrikeFischer Don't think that's doable: it's a fundamental issue of the structure of the DVI format, there is no 'after a page' hook
@JosephWright ? but dvipdfmx is doing it fine, so why not dvips?
@UlrikeFischer Hmm, true: presumably it is tracking internally and adding during shipout. Perhaps that could work ...
@JosephWright also you can add something to the page dictionary with \special{ps:~[{ThisPage}<<--->>~/PUT~pdfmark} so the resources sub dictionary should be possible too. One only need a name for the object.
7:08 AM
@UlrikeFischer We can ask Tom: it's mainly trying to get ideas moved from existing code
@JosephWright "at least one prominent user continues to use" :-)
@DavidCarlisle @barbarabeeton of course ;)
@DavidCarlisle Seems that the Type 3 business is actually an easy fix, another one of those historical memory-limitation things.
@JosephWright well that is the nearest you will get to a stackexchange ping to that user, I guess.
@JosephWright can you? I'm not sure if I know enough about the postscript to be able to ask about a sensible special to get something in /ExtGState and /Properties etc.
@UlrikeFischer I mean that there must be some resource management in dvipdfmx ..
7:20 AM
@JosephWright ah. Yes they added a special recently, something like \special{pdf:pageresources<</ExtGState <</A /B>>>>} works ok.
@UlrikeFischer Does that have to be within the page? Doesn't it have teh same general issue as in dvips?
@JosephWright yes, I guess it should be in the page. But that is not the question with dvips, the question is how to get something in the dict at all. Or do you know code for it? The transparent package doesn't work with dvips, so I guess Heiko didn't find something or it was too complicated.
@UlrikeFischer It's going to have to be pdfmark or not at all ...
7:50 AM
@JosephWright there is transparency mentioned in the pdfmark manual, and there is an example tex.stackexchange.com/a/199791/2388 (but it doesn't work for me currently), but I didn't find anything about other resources like Properties or ColorSpace.
@UlrikeFischer Shouldn't it all be a question of using /PUT?
@JosephWright Ask @DavidCarlisle I don't know postscript ;-)
8:21 AM
@egreg Good morning Prof. :-). A curiosity: why in Faraday's law exists N? I know it without N. Peraphs is there a coil? Thank you very much.
A: Putting Faraday's law formula in LaTeX

egregIf you want a symbol, use \mathcal: \[ \mathcal{E}=-N\frac{\Delta\mathnormal{\Phi}}{\Delta t} \] If you prefer “emf”, then it should be in italics like every other variable name: \[ \mathit{emf}=-N\frac{\Delta\mathnormal{\Phi}}{\Delta t} \] Full example: \documentclass{article} \usepackage...

8:41 AM
@Sebastiano If you look at the wikipedia page, a bit down you find “or a tightly wound coil of wire, composed of N identical turns, …” followed by the formula with the N included.
@UlrikeFischer Transparency, as defined by the PDFmark documentation is not supported by Ghostscript, only by Distiller. Ghostscript has its own, dot-prefixed set of .<commands>. It would be useful to implement both and select the pertinent one during runtime, evaluating the result of the product PostScript command.
@AlexG We can do that I think
@AlexG pstricks seems to support both. Also Herbert just told me that it works with ps2pdf if you use the -dNOSAFER switch and this is true (also with pgf). @JosephWright
@UlrikeFischer Ah, right, yes
8:58 AM
@AlexG but my main problem is how to handle the interface to the page resources at all. E.g. what to do with /Properties? Is it possible to get something backend independant?
@Sebastiano Yes, N is the number of loops.
@UlrikeFischer Transparency-related modifications to /Properties etc should be done automatically by Ghostscript/Distiller. Doing so manually may break something.
@AlexG I didn't mean transparency but generally. Can you do ocg with dvips? And if yes how do you add the named resources to the /Properties?
9:22 AM
@UlrikeFischer Yes, the <<property list>> associated with the BDC pdfmark is automatically turned into a PDF object and referenced in the /Properties dict of the page. The /Name associated with the object reference is also automatically generated by ps2pdf/Distiller.
Since Ghostscript-9.14.
@AlexG what about ColorSpace, Pattern and Shading? Are they also filled "automatically" by some uses?
10:30 AM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen Meanwhile I thank you very much for the link. I think, but I'm going to remember, I saw that N when I studied the coefficient of auto and mutual induction. My most cordial greetings.
@egreg Ok. Thank you very much.
11:09 AM
Hi, I downloaded the TL2019 iso file
but it fails to install
I get exact comment as this question
Q: Installation of teXlive on Windows fails

MrXI tried to install teXlive on my laptop running Windows 8.1. After unpacking, I ran "install-tl-windows.bat". It seemed OK for most of the installation, but then I got this in the terminal (the log file is the same): Installing [2321/3058, time/total: 01:06:55/01:24:53]: qsymbols [136k] Installi...

but the solution answers did not work
@EnthusiasticEngineer What exactly happens?
it installs two or three packages
and then stops the process
I had my tl2018 working perfectly
I wanted to upgrade to '19
so I uninstalled the previous version
now I can not work with latex :((((((
Installing to: C:/texlive/2019
Installing [0001/3758, time/total: ??:??/??:??]: 12many [376k]
Installing [0002/3758, time/total: 00:00/00:00]: 2up [66k]
Installing [0003/3758, time/total: 00:01/01:50:28]: Asana-Math [482k]
Installing [0004/3758, time/total: 00:01/52:45]: ESIEEcv [137k]
Installing [0005/3758, time/total: 00:02/01:31:56]: FAQ-en [4971k]
TLUtils::check_file: removing C:\Users\VAIO\AppData\Local\Temp\v1acGHEKB6\qrtZkp7uqQ/FAQ-en.tar.xz, checksums differ:
TLUtils::check_file: TL=908746734fe12a2bcd67620aa7ebb7f8f3c805859d75c3a245de189f6280826d61d6bb892fc3ddc534f9abdc2f587968af1
this is what shows in the windows
11:45 AM
@EnthusiasticEngineer that's usually a sign of bad mirror can you force a different ctan repository as the source?
@DavidCarlisle also when an iso is used?
@UlrikeFischer well the iso image should be self-consistent shouldn't it? (I have not tried that though)
@DavidCarlisle yes, but I'm not quite sure if the log means that the iso was really used (I never installed one).
@EnthusiasticEngineer If you have the space it is always possible to install the new one without uninstalling the old one, and just delete if you decode later you never need to go back. (I know that doesn't help you now but...)
12:02 PM
@JosephWright got an undefined cs error from \coffin_gattach:NnnNnnnn today
@Skillmon Ah: details?

  \l_tmpa_coffin { vc } { hc }
  \l_tmpb_coffin { vc } { hc }
  { 0pt } { 0pt }

@JosephWright ^^^ MWE producing the error
./csundefminimal.tex:8: Undefined control sequence.
\coffin_gattach:NnnNnnnn ...fin_gattach:NnnNnnnnN
l.8   { 0pt } { 0pt }
@JosephWright ^^^ error message
 *File List*
 article.cls    2018/09/03 v1.4i Standard LaTeX document class
  size10.clo    2018/09/03 v1.4i Standard LaTeX file (size option)
   expl3.sty    2019-05-28 L3 programming layer (loader)
expl3-code.tex    2019-05-28 L3 programming layer
l3pdfmode.def    2019-04-06 v L3 Experimental driver: PDF mode
@JosephWright ^^^ versions in use
@JosephWright \coffin_attach:NnnNnnnn doesn't throw errors.
@Skillmon Fixed in the Git repo
@JosephWright and it would be nice to be able to set a handle as centre for rotation
@Skillmon Log an issue
@Skillmon At present we've not got centre-of-rotation set up: the idea was more rotate then move ... I guess at some stage we'll need it
12:28 PM
@DavidCarlisle I downloaded it from a local repository. I will download the iso from the global site. It needs time to download the iso file...
@DavidCarlisle do we need to always have the latest update? TL'18 was working good for my needs...
@JosephWright also skewing (is that the correct term?) would be nice to have in expl3 (I know one can do this with specials).
@EnthusiasticEngineer well that depends. If you are using pdftex then for 99% of documents a texlive from 2000 will work fine but of course if you happen to hit a bug in a package and someone tells you it was fixed earlier this year, they are more likely to tell you to update than tell you how to patch an old release. If you are using luatex, I'd recommend always having the latest release, there were a lot of changes and fixes in recent years
@EnthusiasticEngineer some of use (@JosephWright, me, @UlrikeFischer ...) have to have the latest release as we are working on the next release, but we are not typical users:-)
@Skillmon That's really a drawing operation, and is in l3draw
@Skillmon There's an overlap between coffins and more general drawing concepts ...
@JosephWright Boris for PM?
@DavidCarlisle Looks that way :(
12:33 PM
@JosephWright oh, ok. Thought it should be part of coffins, never looked into l3draw.
@Skillmon Coffins are 'boxes with handles': rotating the box is just 'using the handle', but skewing the box is right on the border ...
@JosephWright I sort of not so helpfully replied to this (new user) comment, but should we close the question as dup or is it worth answering or ...
@DavidCarlisle given that the related question is now ~9 years old, it seems fair to ask again. — Martin 8 mins ago
@DavidCarlisle Replied
@DavidCarlisle The old question is still entirely valid
@UlrikeFischer I don't know exactly how these are defined. But in any case, for dvips, DON'T provide hooks for manually adding to /Resources or to its /Properties sub-dictionary as it will break OCGs and XObjects. Ghostscript's .setopacityalpha and friends as well as Distillers transparency related pdfmarks do the necessary insertions automatically without breaking things. @JosephWright
@AlexG But you still need macro-level interfaces to set those up
12:45 PM
\usepackage{ocgx2}    % BDC, EMC pdfmark
\usepackage{xsavebox} % BP, EP and SP pdfmarks for XObject generation and referencing


Layer A
Layer B



% Manually adding to /Resources or /Properties will break OCG- and XObject-related
% automatic insertions!

%% Bad: %%
%  mark {ThisPage} <</Resources << /Properties <</Foo/Bar>> >> >> /PUT pdfmark
@JosephWright As long as they don't attempt writing manually to /Resources all will be good.
> Supermarkets in Asia are now using banana leaves instead of plastic packaging.
@PauloCereda Nice! Germans could use cabbage leaves :)
@AlexG ooh das Kabbage. :)
@PauloCereda Der Kohl. (Not the late chancellor)
@AlexG ooh
I need to learn German. :)
12:50 PM
@AlexG That's rather the point of trying to have a single mechanism :)
@AlexG well that's certainly wrong: you get a second resources dictionary and this will break lots of things. The question is if one need a way to add something to one of the entries of the dictionary.
@JosephWright why does \dim_set:Nn \l_tmpa_int { 1cm * \fp_eval:n { sin ( 1 ) } } produce printed output?
@Skillmon Rules of \dimexpr provided by the engine
@UlrikeFischer I am afraid this will not be possible, for the lack of dedicated pdfmarks.
@JosephWright but \dimexpr 1cm*0.7\relax should work, shouldn't it?
12:55 PM
@Skillmon No
@JosephWright oh, just realized it doesn't.
@JosephWright so calculation should be done in \fp_eval:n and a pt appended?
@JosephWright valid questions yes but that one isn't marked as dup or answered
@Skillmon or done using dimexpr syntax, eg 0.7\dimexpr 1cm\relax would work
@DavidCarlisle what would be the L3 way to put this? I think \dim_set:Nn \l_tmpa_dim { \fp_eval:n { (1cm) * sin(1) } pt } would be correct.
@Skillmon yes although using units in fp expressions are a little odd but we allow them (some discussion about that internally recently:-)
@DavidCarlisle wasn't it part of the fp documentation that units are accepted and converted to pt. Is this about to change?
@JosephWright is there any way of joining two coffins and somehow keep the handle of the first coffin which was used at the same place while still enlarging its bounding box?
1:03 PM
@Skillmon yes and no it did change a bit but only changing the priority of the way things were bound due to a question here where the unit didn't bind as tightly as you might have expected and Bruno adjusted it a bit. (Personally I'd have banned them if I could have gone back in time to prevent existing use:-)
@DavidCarlisle I'd always put (1cm) instead of 1cm in real usage :)
@Skillmon yes but it acts as documented not as a real dimensioned expression so cm is really just a floating point number and juxtaposition is multiplication so (1cm)cm is valid as is 1cm*1cm but it's not as if fpeval understands areas or volumes etc
1:16 PM
@UlrikeFischer @JosephWright Btw, a similar problem is writing to sub-dicts of {Catalog}. Pdftex, for instance, provides \pdfnames. For Dvips, the only way would be [{Catalog} /Names <<.....>> /PUT pdfmark. But this would zap existing entries in /Names, such as /Dests (automatically inserted and populated by the /DEST pdfmark.)
@AlexG the question is what is needed, what must be public, which ugly details should be hidden. For /Properties e.g. you populate them in dvips through BDC and I think that could done in the other drivers too and the direct access can be hidden. /ExtGstate could work similar, if I can find out how the transparency works.
@AlexG do you have an use case where using \pdfnames is actually needed?
@AlexG can you not /append rather than /put ? (not that I have done either for a very long time....)
@UlrikeFischer Adding document-level JavaScript, for example. Impossible with pdfmarks.
1:39 PM
@DavidCarlisle /APPEND appends to Arrays. /PUT appends to Dicts. The actual problem is the destination of the operation. You need a symbolic name (predefined, such as {ThisPage}, {Catalog}, or a user defined one).
For the majority of global or page-related objects such predefined names do not exist, unfortunately. One could add a completely new sub-dict to the parent dictionary for which a predefined symbolic name is provided, but this deletes/overwrites an existing sub-dict of the same name. As shown in my example above.
@AlexG it's not as if /pdfmark is only designed to work with distiller:-)
@AlexG thanks for the clarification.
@DavidCarlisle quack
Apr 17 at 16:28, by David Carlisle
@PauloCereda dinner!
@DavidCarlisle oh no
@DavidCarlisle The implementation status of pdfmarks in Ghostscript is not that bad, actually. Some desirable operations are just not possible, with both Distiller and Ghostscript.
1:48 PM
@AlexG do you know some code that puts a /ColorSpace entry in the resources with dvips? (it doesn't to be done directly, side effect is okay too).
@UlrikeFischer Transparency is implemented in Ghostscript with <opacity val between 0...1> .setopacityalpha, in Distiller with [/CA 0.5 /ca 0.5 /SetTransparency pdfmark (alpha for stroke and fill set separately). Both methods add ExtGState automatically.
@AlexG can one add both in a document or do one need a ghostscript-backend and a distiller-backend version?
2:08 PM
@UlrikeFischer AlexG may provide something more specific but you can always do /.setopacityalpha where {(gs) ==} {(distiller) ==} ifelse which echoes gs if .thing is defined and echoes distiller otherwise
@JosephWright -- Whatever is done has to work with "Knuthian" tex. Tom is giving a talk on this at the TUG meeting. You might prime Frank or Chris to be prepared to ask questions.
@barbarabeeton I get the aim :)
@JosephWright ooh
@UlrikeFischer ps2pdf -dNOSAFER
\bf Hello
  systemdict /.setopacityalpha known
  {0.5 .setopacityalpha}{mark /CA 0.5 /ca 0.5 /SetTransparency pdfmark}
} World!
Works for both,ps2pdf and distiller
@DavidCarlisle uff, no more special backend formats ;-). But this all sounds as if ExtGState should better be handled on the "draw" level in commands handling transparency (and as special case overprint, \special{ps:true setoverprint}) and not by direct access @JosephWright.
2:22 PM
@PauloCereda -- I'm sure banana leaves were used before plastic existed.
@barbarabeeton :)
@UlrikeFischer that isn't a special back end, it would just be valid ps code for dvips to insert if it doesn't know what ps to pdf system was following
@UlrikeFischer @AlexG's known operator is doing the same thing as where here (but probably a bit more efficiently) either way you get false if the command isn't defined.
@DavidCarlisle @UlrikeFischer where leaves the dictionary on the stack, if found. Therefore, we need a pop in the "true" clause:
\bf Hello
  /.setopacityalpha where
  {pop 0.5 .setopacityalpha}{mark /CA 0.5 /ca 0.5 /SetTransparency pdfmark}
} World!
@AlexG oops still close enough (I wanted to use known but I couldn't remember the dictionary it would be in:-) I don't think I have written any PostScript since the 1990s
@DavidCarlisle Oh :)
2:30 PM
@AlexG Should I roll a dice or is one version better?
@UlrikeFischer use known
known directly asks if the command is defined in systemdict returning true or false, where searches around and returns a dictionary where the name is defined and returns false if none is found. So since "we" know we want to look in systemdict that's better
2:48 PM
@AlexG how do I use two transparency values? If I add the special a second time with e.g. 0.3 as value I get an error from ghostscript.
3:03 PM
@UlrikeFischer this works for me:
10 setlinewidth

0 100 moveto 100 100 lineto stroke

0.5 .setopacityalpha

0 200  moveto 100 200 lineto stroke

0.1 .setopacityalpha

0 300  moveto  100 300 lineto stroke

save as z.ps then ps2pdf -dNOSAFER z.ps
@DavidCarlisle I had forgotten the systemdict when switching back to the "known" version ...
> Windows 10's Linux Kernel Is Now Available
Microsoft released a new Windows 10 Insider Preview build this week featuring the Windows Subsystem for Linux 2. WSL 2 includes a real Linux kernel that lets you run more Linux software on Windows and with better performance than WSL 1. From a report: This is part of Windows 10 Insider Preview build 18917, released on June 12, 2019. It's part of the fast ring of updates. You can experiment with it today, although you'll have to join the Windows Insider program and get unstable builds of Windows 10 on your PC. Microsoft's Windows Command Line blog offers more information about WSL 2, complet
@PauloCereda embrace, extend, ....
3:26 PM
@PauloCereda So just like Mac OS 10.1 but 18 years later... :)
@AlanMunn :)
@UlrikeFischer Another ex, setting different alpha vals and colors for filling and stroking:


  10 setlinewidth
  0 0 moveto
  100 0 lineto
  100 100 lineto
  0 100 lineto
    0 0 1 setrgbcolor
    0.5 .setopacityalpha
    0.8 .setopacityalpha

@AlanMunn yes but open sourced
@AlexG that is probably more for @JosephWright I was wondering about how to extend the transparent package to dvips (and dvipdfmx).
@UlrikeFischer Ok. And your question, is it answered?
3:39 PM
@AlexG about transparency? Yes I think I got the main points. The next problem is ColorSpace ;-).
@UlrikeFischer I don't now anything about ColorSpace, unfortunately. Perhaps the pgf package files could be a source of information.
@UlrikeFischer I know how to do that .. just need page resources
@JosephWright with page resources access I would know too, the question is where is the "indirect" way like for /Properties (through a BDC mark) and /ExtGState (at least for transparency and overprint). I could ask Herbert, he knows it perhaps.
@UlrikeFischer As far as I can tell, ColorSpace is entirely set via the PostScript setcolorspace command. No need to meddle with /ColorSpace in the page dictionary. Distiller adds it automatically and Ghostscript makes the settings completely inside the content stream: Here is an example:


/DeviceRGB setcolorspace
10 setlinewidth
0 0 moveto
100 0 lineto
100 100 lineto
0 100 lineto
0 0 1 setcolor
% 0.5 .setopacityalpha
% 0.8 .setopacityalpha

The same seems to be the case for patterns, as there exists a PostScript command makepattern
1 hour later…
5:31 PM
quick poll: in code comments(any programming language), text content (tex, markdown), or in any language where you break lines at a certain character count
pastebin.com/raw/mUHWHqfU do you prefer style 1 or style 2?
nice palindrome :d
5:48 PM
@Lacey -- When I'm creating a file, I usually end up with something that looks like style 1. But if I have to edit a file, I really prefer style 2. (So clearly I should be more observant when I'm creating files, so they'll be easier to work on later.)
@Lacey I hate style two even though it's much more sensible for version control systems. It's just very awkward to get into the habit of writing that way.
6:04 PM
@Lacey Definitely style 2, for the reasons given by @barbarabeeton. Also, in a big paragraph, it makes it easier to find a sentence in the source. The line breaks in the source and the typeset output will not match anyhow. And for version control, too. Cleaner/clearer diffs, that is. But it takes some getting used to writing that way. (I write that way for HTML too.)
I suppose I prefer the style 2 too, except for the added line count it causes
7:04 PM
@DavidCarlisle what a boring way to count these :) (tex.stackexchange.com/a/495674/117050)
@DavidCarlisle also you have a superfluous \noexpand in that answer before \x
@Skillmon almost as if I'd stolen the original from @marmot's answer
@DavidCarlisle almost. But you could have stolen that code from the question, that didn't contain the \noexpand.
@Skillmon I could have done, but i needed to confirm that @marmot's answer would blow up if I changed the list:-)
@DavidCarlisle why would you need to confirm that? I thought you already knew from looking.
@barbarabeeton Please, is there any special way how C++ should be typeset in AMS journals?
btw, @barbarabeeton I registered your mail, but you don't give people easy tasks :-)
7:21 PM
@Skillmon I did:-) But nice to see your expectations confirmed:-)
@DavidCarlisle "Changed the list" is maybe not how others would describe this. ;-)
7:53 PM
@marmot :-)
@yo' -- I don't remember any special way of presenting C++ and can't find anything in the AMS style guide. I'll ask. (My inclination is that the pluses should be smaller than the default cm versions and sitting on the baseline, but actually checking would be good.) Re "difficult tasks", wouldn't have asked unless we thought you could do it well. (Sorry to cause angst though.)
@barbarabeeton no worries. I'll most likely ask someone, should be on Sunday
@yo' -- Thanks!
8:18 PM
Hey, I just read that user Mico decided to delete his profile! I hope that is will not happen (tex.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/8025, last comment on question).
Maybe we can arrange some kind of gift.
@Dr.ManuelKuehner Wow, that's really too bad. He has been a great contributor to the site.
@Dr.ManuelKuehner we should ask the powers for reimbursement (not joking here).
@yo' reimbursement of what?
@Dr.ManuelKuehner of whatever gift we get for him (sorry, maybe I use that long word in a wrong meaning)
@yo' Now I get it
@yo' I am going to bed now, but I am willing to support any activities regarding a gift for Mico (or we visit him in Zuerich :))
@yo' and beat him until he comes back
8:33 PM
@Dr.ManuelKuehner lol! g'night
8:47 PM
@marmot re: No. Someone needs to stand up if the behaviour is non-ethical. Which it is not.
@yo' I never explicitly nor implicitly used the term "non-ethical" nor did I downvote any of Mico's posts. You are talking to the wrong guy, I think.
@marmot no. The thing is that you suggest that someone should stand up. And I say that no, nobody needs to stand up.
@Mico Hi!
@yo' Isn't "standing up" what you just try to do here? You disagree with my opinion (which I feel you do not necessarily understand, possibly due to language barriers) and/or behavior, and comment on it, even though this is not directly your concern. I think this is standing up.
@marmot yes it is. But I don't think I have to do this. I just want to do this.
@yo' Yes, so? I never said someone has to do it.
8:55 PM
@mico I suppose we're not going to be able to change your mind? :(
@marmot As I said, I do think that it is your right to automatically ignore such users. What else it is other than saying that Mico's suggestion is not righteous?
@yo' You understand that it says "I do think" and not "I do not think"?
@marmot oh goodness
I'm feeling like an idiot now and I owe you big apologies :-(
Sorry for this really :(
@yo' That's fine. If I had written what you thought I had you would have been perfectly right. So let's forget about it and clean comments? ;-)
@marmot I already removed mine
9:34 PM
@DavidCarlisle thank you david. I had downloaded the iso file from a mirror which was located inside the country. Now I downloaded from an international mirror and the installation is going forward.
10:16 PM
they changed the site layout again, the ask a question button has come back:(
@DavidCarlisle quite unfair to lead you into temptation like this.
@UlrikeFischer I'll have to adjust my user css file I guess...
@UlrikeFischer interesting set of edits in that Chess question:-)
@DavidCarlisle why set of edits? I see only one.
@UlrikeFischer I changed he to she, the OP changed it back, then you changed it back again
@DavidCarlisle oh ;-) let's see if it stays.

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