3:05 AM
@HenriMenke you end up with a better situation though, anybody who wants to install a minimal installation really shouldn't have been loading 100+ packages from the oberdiek collection. There may be an occasional overnight hit as you need to fix dependencies but basically that's what continuous integration builds are for. the vast majority of ordinary users are not impacted at all as it's just a change of directories within the texmf tree.
The bundle was simply not maintainable as it was.

@DavidCarlisle But that is not really what I'm talking about. Imagine the situation that in my document I do \usepackage{kvoptions}. Naturally, I put tlmgr install kvoptions in my CI script, but because the dependencies are not marked correctly, I have go ahead and audit kvoptions.sty for included packages and install these manually as well, even though I'm not even using them directly.

@HenriMenke perhaps, but just once. I don't see that is a major issue. But if you are using kvoptions you presumably rely on someone maintaining it and the existing structure was really not maintainable.
@HenriMenke you could just use tlmgr install of every package that is in the list of every ctan-annouce message when the oberdiek bundle is split. But as I say perhaps really you don't want 100 packages and may take the opportunity to only install some of them, that;s a new opportunity that you only have because of the split.

@DavidCarlisle I don't have to resolve dependencies by hand on my Linux installation, not even when I'm installing a package for the first time.
@DavidCarlisle No, it all boils down to having the correct dependencies in the tplsrc files of the packages in TeX Live.

@HenriMenke see the list here ctan.org/ctan-ann/id/…

@DavidCarlisle BTW, is the oberdiek split complete now?

3:17 AM
@HenriMenke yes but given anyone can load ny package to ctan that has any number of requirepackage and they don't need to declare them to anyone it would be a big burden on the texlive volunteers (basically Karl and Norbert as far as I can see) to have to evaluate every submission

@DavidCarlisle :52897568 I contacted Karl about the dependency hell and he sort of agrees, but he pointed out that some stuff is still in oberdiek.

@HenriMenke No. As a general aim I want to be able to make hyperref a core package with no contrib dependencies so that will lead to a few more re-adjustments but probably leaving around 50 in the bundle, but then if any issues are raised and any need an update I'd split it out.

@DavidCarlisle Again on the example of kvoptions, it depends on keyval (part of graphics) and ltxcmds and kvsetkeys (both still in oberdiek).
@DavidCarlisle But the tlpsrc of kvoptions is just empty.

@HenriMenke if you look in git I have split out kvsetkeys and kvdefinekeys probably will push to ctan at the weekend
@HenriMenke but I have no control over that. (and I can't say I have ever really depended on those dependencies for anything)

@DavidCarlisle Fair enough. I offered Karl some help with that and I think this is ultimately really useful, because then in my CI script I can just enumerate all the packages and TeX engines I am using and can be sure that all dependencies just get pulled in automatically.

3:26 AM
@HenriMenke it broke our latex test travis CI builds as well but as I say I don't see that as a major issue, that's what CI builds are for you just add the missing packages and it picks up. Yes having the dependencies tracked automatically would be a slight improvement but I don't think it's a big deal, it affects very few users and only the users who are quite capable of fixing the issue locally. Normal users will have all these packages installed anyway

3 hours later…
6:23 AM
Just saw the election results. My sympathies to UK people.
I'm thousands of miles away and it doesn't actually affect me personally, but I still feel bad about it.

6:35 AM
@FaheemMitha The first step towards the EU destruction. It was a beautiful dream, unfortunately, we will soon wake up :)

@CarLaTeX I really hope that it not true. Why do you say that?

@FaheemMitha Because (for the electoral convenience of some politicians) many other country will follow UK example

@CarLaTeX I hope that doesn't happen. If anything, the horrible experience of the UK should discourage emulation. And the UK was never properly in the EU to begin with.
Did you have any specific country in mind?

6:57 AM
@FaheemMitha Mine, for example. Many politicians blame EU for Italian problems, this is not true, of course, but it is very convenient to blame someone else for your own fault. And, unfortunately, I don't think the UK experience will be horrible in the long run, there will be problems at the beginning, but then UK will take advantage to have a decision-making ability quicker than EU one, and seeing that many other countries will follow.

@CarLaTeX Personally, I don't think the UK will do well on its own. Of courst, that's just my opinion. Are there any concrete indications that Italy is thinking about leaving the UK? And yes, people (particularly politicians) love having something or someone else to blame.

@FaheemMitha I've already heard some politician saying "let's go out from the Euro Area"

@CarLaTeX Any specific party?

@FaheemMitha Lega, for example

Is the EU actually unpopular in Italy?

7:03 AM
@FaheemMitha Yes, that one (but I don't know if we can talk about political parties here)

@CarLaTeX I don't see why not.

Oh, goodnes #UKElection and good mo(u)rning!

People in the UK seem very optimistic about their future outside the UK. I think they are delusional. But many in the UK are delusional about many things, including their own past. They yearn for the days of Empire, and dream about once again being powerful.
They forget that it's easy to be successful if you're robbing people. But those options don't last forever.

@FaheemMitha I don't think it's unpopular, but some Italian politicians say EU will use our money to save German's banks, and other things like that, so it is becoming unpopular

@CarLaTeX Do you think that is true?
@yo' Are you in mourning?

7:09 AM
@FaheemMitha I don't know if it fits the CoC

@CarLaTeX SE Rooms are often off-topic. Unless a mod makes a fuss about it, I suppose.
Often more off-topic than on-topic.

@FaheemMitha Of course not, if we have problems they are caused by mafia and bureaucracy (the two things help each other)

@FaheemMitha for the UK (and it's true that I was at a funeral yesterday, but I'm not mourning for that, the lady lived for 96 years and had a beautiful life)

@FaheemMitha Not because it is off-topic, but because the topic could annoy someone

@yo' Yes, I got that part.
@CarLaTeX Any discussion could annoy someone.
@CarLaTeX Glad to hear it. I did get the impression that Germany has the impression for being a bit authoritarian within the EU, whether that is deserved or not.
It would be very unfortunate if the EU was to dissolve. It's an important player in world affairs, and relatively sane. For example, is the only entity on the planet that is willing to (try to) hold powerful corporations to account.

7:17 AM
@FaheemMitha Yes, but there are peculiar topics like politics, sex, religions, which could be especially annoying
@FaheemMitha Yes, and maybe for it US President is happy for Brexit

@CarLaTeX Politics is general interest. At least, till we all die in a nuclear holocaust. Then it's probably too late.

@FaheemMitha :)

@CarLaTeX Yes, the Justice Department has pretty much abdicated its oversight role. Not that it was ever very active in that role.

8:07 AM
@FaheemMitha Thanks
@CarLaTeX Possibly, though I suspect the issues in the UK are different from elsewhere

@JosephWright Yes, I imagine
Found on FB ^^^

8:28 AM
OH NO

8:40 AM
@CarLaTeX good one

8:52 AM
A bad day to set the date format. :) (@barbarabeeton ^^)

@PauloCereda complain that you want the year in the same format 12/12/1212

@DavidCarlisle a rendition to Zager And Evans' "In the year 2525"? :)

@PauloCereda "in the year 2525 we finally got brexit done". That would make a catchy song title...

@DavidCarlisle ooh
The original:
And the better version made by Futurama:
:D
> In the year one million and a half, humankind is enslaved by giraffe...
We are close. :)
Giraffe overlords do not sound too bad, considering the UK political outcome...
Why Lord Buckethead is near BJ in the speech?!

10:01 AM
@PauloCereda he was standing for parliament

10:33 AM
@DavidCarlisle really?!

10:46 AM
@PauloCereda two rival candidates have buckets rather than heads in that constituency. This is serious stuff. whocanivotefor.co.uk/elections/…

@DavidCarlisle OH MY

@PauloCereda the thing is there are essentially no requirements in the UK to use your given name. If you say you say you are count binface and pay your deposit, you go on the ballot paper as count binface.

@DavidCarlisle OH MY

1 hour later…
11:57 AM
@PauloCereda I think buckethead has been running since the 80's?

@daleif ooh

Hi all! Got my skating skis today. Now I just need to find some snow...

1:35 PM
@UlrikeFischer I could cut out the dragon's soul... but it may be better t make a PR here github.com/drehscheibe/soul

2:09 PM
@DavidCarlisle ;-). I didn't want to make flippy comments about dragons and slicing under the answer to avoid to confuse the OP. But I think I wrote once to the soul maintainer and there was no reaction.

2:29 PM
@UlrikeFischer the git history there is all around 2003, but the actual github repo is from 2016 so he was around recently, if contact is made I was thinking of suggesting that we fork that under ho-tex, add soulutf8 to that repo and maintain them together.....

2:41 PM
@PauloCereda -- Yes, and it happens regularly once every month. (If forced to use an all-numeric format, I'd choose the last. Otherwise, I always express the month by name. It's a mess. I actually have a similar problem with time, so I either use a 24-hour clock or insist on "noon" and "midnight" instead of the totally ambiguous "12:00".)

@barbarabeeton We favour DD/MM/YYYY, but I also like named, capitalized months. :) Regarding time, 24-hour clock it is. :)

@PauloCereda -- YYYY/MM/DD is the only format that can be sorted blindly into chronological order. (You probably don't remember the y2k kerfuffle.)

@barbarabeeton or YYYY-MM-DD even better as it has the glow of ISO approval

@barbarabeeton that's true. :) And I do remember Y2K. :)
@DavidCarlisle ooh ISO

@DavidCarlisle and @JosephWright -- Condolences. I fear it'll happen sometime that you'll feel the same dislocation having to show a passport at the Scottish border that I still do when crossing over to Canada. Not quite the same, but close enough for government work.

2:50 PM
@barbarabeeton I don't know how will I ever attend a UK-TUG meeting now with these dark times... :(

@PauloCereda yes but you also remember monty python and zager and evans, clearly not to be trusted on your claimed age and nationality

@DavidCarlisle 𝕮𝖗𝖚𝖒𝖇𝖘!

@PauloCereda -- Sadly, my laptop doesn't recognize many emoji. (I'm assuming these are emoji.) All I see is a string of empty boxes.

@barbarabeeton oh it's written "Crumbs!" in bold Fraktur. :)

@barbarabeeton and all the work you did to get the math alphabets into Unicode:-) You could install a stix font:-)

2:58 PM
@DavidCarlisle -- The behavior of my laptop is so tenuous that if I try to install anything, it's likely to stop working entirely. What I need is a new system, and that's being negotiated.

3:12 PM
@PauloCereda 𝚠𝘦 𝗰𝕠𝒖𝕝𝕕 𝕙𝙖𝘷ℯ 𝖆 𝙨𝖾𝘤𝗿𝑒𝚝 𝖈ℴ𝖓𝒗𝘦𝘳𝘴𝘢𝗍𝓲𝑜𝚗 𝒕𝔥𝖺𝘵 𝕭𝖺𝓇𝖇𝒂𝗿𝘢 𝑐𝐚𝚗 𝖓𝔬𝔱 𝒓𝚎𝘢𝙙.

@DavidCarlisle oh no

@PauloCereda that should have been 𝔬𝕙 𝖓𝔬

3:28 PM
@UlrikeFischer ooh

4:27 PM
@DavidCarlisle Surprisingly, I could cut and paste that. So that's all Unicode?

@FaheemMitha all text on this site is unicode

5:11 PM
@DavidCarlisle all your unicode is belongs to us
2
@barbarabeeton During my sabbaticals in the US, when I wrote checks, I always dated them in ISO format. Never had a problem with it. And there is a reason why insurance in the US tends to start at 00:01 am and end at 11:59 pm. Stupid system.

5:58 PM
@PauloCereda apparently the Lord buckethead persona first ran in 1987 (against thatcher?)

@daleif wow!

I've seen at leach one image of the persona and John major. That would be early 90s?

6:19 PM
@daleif @PauloCereda earlier than that '87 against thatcher:-) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Buckethead

@DavidCarlisle ooh buckets

7:17 PM
@HenriMenke I tried to look at your problem. It is clearly at the euclid files, but from travis output one can't really see more and locally I can't reproduce it. Can you somehow secure real log-files from the compilations?

7:38 PM
I will enroll in an online German language course!
2

@PauloCereda ;-)

@UlrikeFischer hallo :)

@PauloCereda Yay

@PauloCereda 1. Lesson: Guten Tag

@UlrikeFischer Guten Tag! :)
@JosephWright yay!
Guten TagPDF. :)

7:47 PM
@PauloCereda Guten TUG ;-)
5

@UlrikeFischer OOOOOH

@PauloCereda Sehr gutes Deutsch!

@UlrikeFischer <3

@PauloCereda Lesson 2: Ein Bier, bitte!

@HaraldHanche-Olsen ooh
Numbers are complicated, I could use a unary system and simply stack "ein Bier" in a loop. :)

7:51 PM
@PauloCereda That's all you'll ever need. Except perhaps for the followup: Noch ein Bier, bitte!

@HaraldHanche-Olsen also Es ist nicht meine Schuld! might be useful. :)

@PauloCereda That one is for @DavidCarlisle

@HaraldHanche-Olsen :)

@HaraldHanche-Olsen He needs also "Es ist Ulrikes Schuld"

@PauloCereda -- In a few hours it will be "Guten Abend."

8:11 PM
@barbarabeeton We're already at that stage here. Or very soon, gute Nacht.
@UlrikeFischer ja, aber @DavidCarlisle braucht natürlich keinen Sprachunterricht

@HaraldHanche-Olsen -- That reminds me ... I see that the dates of the Dante spring meeting are posted, and a call for papers, but I can't seem to find anything about registration. Is that posted yet?

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Das ist wahr, er kann jede Sprache perfekt.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen -- And after that, "Schlaf wohl!"

@barbarabeeton Danke schön.

@barbarabeeton no, I didn't see a message about registration yet. Normally this is sent at the end of the year.

8:19 PM
@PauloCereda wo zum Teufel ist der z-Schlüssel

@DavidCarlisle The master slipped ;-) z-Taste

@UlrikeFischer ente-Taste?, ymmm

@DavidCarlisle your sword-key strikes again - I should really look at this xcolor-patch now ;-)

@UlrikeFischer I'm going to do all the ones that are referenced by hyperref so @HenriMenke doesn't have to update the hyperref dependencies every other day

8:37 PM
@barbarabeeton nobody I know says "Schlaf wohl!", instead we say "Schlaf gut!".

9:16 PM
@Skillmon -- Well, I guess I'm just too much of an old-timer. That's the way my aunts would have said it. And they were definitely the product of another century, the oldest born in the 1890s.

@barbarabeeton oh, that's only roughly a century older than I am. In that case, yes, in the past "Schlaf wohl!" was wide spread.

@DavidCarlisle hm. I think you simply like to collect github repos ;-) There should be added here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_collectables.

@UlrikeFischer more useful than plastic ducks

9:32 PM
@egreg -- I know you really have nothing to do with the GUIT website, but maybe you can convey this to someone who does. On the English "home page", the greeting starts out with "We have been spreading TeX in Italy for five years, ..." I know GUIT has been in operation for much longer than that! I understand that it's difficult to find someone to keep web pages current, but really! Maybe change the "for five years" to "since 2003", as one can conclude from the meeting list.

@barbarabeeton I'll try!

@UlrikeFischer -- Who has this one got a contract out on?
@egreg -- Thanks!

@barbarabeeton we don't know, it is lurking around in our bathroom ;-)

10:03 PM
@DavidCarlisle oh nein

@DavidCarlisle oi

@egreg -- Super! Please thank him.

@PauloCereda pst.

@UlrikeFischer oopsie
@UlrikeFischer ooh a secrety secret :)

10:10 PM
@PauloCereda but you are quite right OMG

10:42 PM
@DavidCarlisle I looked at xcolor-patch.sty. It contains four patches. The first two seems to have been resolved in a current xcolor. The third is a patch for a bug still present. See tex.stackexchange.com/questions/515766/…. About the last one I'm unsure. The last one seem to robustify something but I couldn't find an example to decide if it is still needed:
  \@ifundefined{XC@frameb@x }{%
\expandafter\let\csname XC@frameb@x \endcsname\XC@frameb@x
\edef\XC@frameb@x{%
\noexpand\protect
\expandafter\noexpand\csname XC@frameb@x \endcsname
}%
\expandafter\ifx\csname XC@frameb@x \endcsname\@frameb@x
\let\@frameb@x\XC@frameb@x
\fi
}{}%

11:25 PM
@DavidCarlisle or @egreg -- In question tex.stackexchange.com/q/520375 , the OP is using $...$ with \tag and a label. (This is with amsmath via amsart.) I think that a label won't work here, but I'm not sure; what I am pretty sure about is that, if it doesn't work, it isn't documented. So my question is, shouldn't it be documented?

@barbarabeeton It works flawlessly; amsmath redefines $ to be \begin{equation*} and $ to \end{equation*}.
@barbarabeeton I guess it should be documented.

@egreg -- But does \equation* accept a referenceable lable?

@barbarabeeton it works

@barbarabeeton Yes, \tag accepts a label.

@barbarabeeton yes

11:32 PM
@DavidCarlisle and @DavidCarlisle -- Thanks. That's not something I've used often.