@AlanMunn -- the flood actually started a few days ago, when ams tech-support received a bug report allegedly for amsbook, but actually for counterwithin. @DavidCarlisle sent me the reference to the github report, but i can't get at it because there was a power failure this afternoon (took out a good chunk of the neighborhood, including the state capitol). power has been restored, but no computer accessibility. tomorrow morning is going to be a big mess.

@barbarabeeton I think they're moving to fix it as soon as possible, so hopefully you can soon just tell people to update their distribution. (I haven't installed TL2018 yet)

@AlanMunn -- tl2018 isn't installed yet at ams, and also likely won't be put into production when/if it is. (i've asked the person in charge of the decision what will happen, but haven't received an answer.) and, yes, i do believe that fixing it quickly is what is intended.

@barbarabeeton But surely the bugs aren't on the AMS side at all, no? Just users who have the latest system complaining to you that it's not working.

@AlanMunn -- exactly. the fact that amsbook was updated (absolutely trivially!) in october 2017 was the cause of the confusion. i knew from discussions here in the chat that it was a chngcntr problem, but trying to cut the submitted problem file down to something that would demonstrate that took two days of headaches.

@barbarabeeton Ah, i see. That is annoying.

@AlanMunn -- the problem file was complex -- set up to support both russian and english text (not at the same time, but triggered by command-line specification of which was wanted). an amazing tour de force, but not fun to unravel. no wonder the poor submitter was desperate for help when all his theorems were numbered incoherently.

google is hurting PDF. Using Chrome browser, one is forced to use its build-in PDF reader. The Chrom PDF reader has much less functionality than standard PDF reader. I just added animation to my Latex using the animate package. Found the animation do not work in PDF when opened by chrome, since chrome PDF reader can't play it. But opening the PDF file outside the browser it works OK. This is terrible.

given how popular Chrome is, most will use it to click on the PDF file and the PDF file will open inside Chrome, which means all the latex animations I made will not work there.

@Nasser sure but nothing new there, it has been that way for years, and didn't start with chrome, it also applies to firefox and Edge. (It started with pdf.js in firefox as I recall)

@DavidCarlisle Ah! I know this, but there is a BIG difference. One can change the PDF reader to use own/external PDF reader with fireFox, but it is impossible to do this in Chrome. Tried and tried. There is no way. Only option in Chrome, to avoid its reader, is to download the PDF file. But clicking on the PDF file, it will always open inside Chrome PDF reader. That is the difference.

This is why I use Firefox now when I am browsing PDF files.

@UlrikeFischer Did you see my email about fences to the list? Does it make sense to you to have the big/Big/bigg/etc keywords when using fencing constructions?

@Nasser yes sure chrome (for a long time) has not supported "legacy" plugin formats, but the fact that you can install plugins in firefox doesn't mean that people do. Once you could assume any pdf was being read by acrobat either directly or in a browser plugin but since firefox handles pdf natively almost all firefox (and chrome and edge) users will not have installed a plugin and so the vast majority of readers of any pdf you publish will be using a renderer implemented in js in a browser

@DavidCarlisle I put a note now in the PDF next to the animation, saying that this will not run if viewed inside Browser PDF reader. In Firefox, I set it, so when I click on PDF file, it opens my own adobe PDF reader installed on the PC. bypassing any internal firefox reader. I could not do this in Chrome.

But this is really terrible. All the Latex animations I made, do not run in PDF if opened in the browser. Which is what most people do. Google and Firefox should fix this.

If you have any contacts in Google, please let them know this. Many other functionalities in the standard PDF reader do not exist in Browser PDF reader. One feels trapped this way by the Browser hijacking the PDF file.

@Nasser It's just the same as when you want to print a PDF, though: you always need to download/open in Reader/print, as the output of the 'native' viewers is rubbish

@Nasser In days of yore, the plugins could be a PITA

@DavidCarlisle Seen tex.stackexchange.com/questions/425589/…?

How can I find out if a font used by LaTeX is using true small caps?

@Nasser they know already they choose to do what they do. As I say in the case of firefox it's Ok if you are reading your own pdf and set it up the way you want but it is best to assume no readers of your document have done that. So in practice there is no difference between firefox chrome and edge here.

@JosephWright probably not, let me look..

@JosephWright send them to nag.co.uk/numeric/fl/nagdoc_fl26/html/g05/g05conts.html :-)

@JohnDorian look at it:-) Or failing that, use the fonts menu in your pdf reader or teh pdffonts commandline utility to get a list of fonts, or if you still have the latex source use \showoutput or ...

@JosephWright I wonder if we should just ask or if "we" should figure out what to do and make an explicit pull request....

@DavidCarlisle You mean for the random number primitive? Let's see if we get the \Ucharcat change first ...

@JosephWright yes, not an absolute requirement for shuffle but....

Quack!

@DavidCarlisle oh no

@DavidCarlisle Doodle poll ...

@JosephWright David is being mean to me

@JosephWright ah yes, was out last week, let me dig out the message...

@JosephWright done, but should we reschedule for Frank anyway?

@DavidCarlisle Chris seemed keen to go ahead, Frank said to me to do so to ...

@DavidCarlisle I'm thinking a 'quick' meeting this week ... perhaps Wednesday

quick question about pdfpages: A student came by with his thesis He's including 10 PDFs at the end, generating aprox 120+ pages. These pages add 40Mb to the Thesis, but the 10 PDFs only have a combined size of about 5Mb. Any reason why?

@JosephWright Next Wednesday (25) I'm off.

@egreg Fill in Doodle poll ;)

@JosephWright Oh, I thought it had been dismissed.

@JosephWright OK

@egreg No, Frank is busy for quite a bit and there are some areas we can talk about

@barbarabeeton would probably be happy if we did a PL3

@PauloCereda Did you see the nice sketch?

@TeXnician oh I will see it now. :)

@JosephWright Hi. A doubt I have about sequences in L3, how “efficient” is \seq_item:? For example, using 100 times \seq_item: compared to saving in different token lists 100 times \seq_pop_left:? And also, \seq_pop_left: vs. \seq_pop_right: in terms of efficiency?

I don't know what to do with this: tex.stackexchange.com/a/426081/117050

@Skillmon I do ;)

@Skillmon I see no way texshade applies for answering the question

@JosephWright I had thought of flagging it.

@nasser @DavidCarlisle Sorry for animate only working in a small number of proprietary PDF viewers. I hope they will add a JavaScript engine to Evince one day . In fact, it is on their ToDo already. (But maybe it stays there forever.)

@Manuel Tricky one

@AlexG it's not entirely your fault, although I suppose we could blame you anyway:-)

@Manuel Popping on the left is more efficient that on the right as the latter needs a loop

@Manuel Bruno is the expert, but I think popping versus item will depend on the length of sequence involved ...

@AlexG you'd think supporting javascript in a browser wouldn't be impossible to add....

@JosephWright but there already is a comment recommending the TeXshade package.

@Skillmon Fifty TeXshades of \color{gray}

@JosephWright Ok, thanks. Trying by hand regarding the “shuffle” question, I think that mapping over the sequence to save to token lists each item is fastest, then shuffle the numbers saved in \fontdimens, and then output every variable shuffled in the same \edef and set the seq from the resulting list (comma separated, for instance).

@Manuel Sounds about right

@Manuel I've logged the idea of a shuffle function: I'll probably leave it to Bruno as that's his area

@Manuel github.com/latex3/latex3/issues/456

@JosephWright I would like to see his version to see how he does his magic :) Thanks!

@DavidCarlisle Perhaps possible, but beyond me. The whole PDF object model would have to be implemented. (As defined by the Acrobat JavaScript specification.) Interestingly, in Foxit Reader, they use the Mozilla JavaScript engine.

@AlexG yes I guess it's not trivial but at least they do have a js engine to hand which ought to give them a start:) I expect they would just rather people don't put pdf on the web and use html.

@DavidCarlisle Could be a reason, indeed.

Also I have no idea about the rendering speed of the embedded pdf viewer. Maybe it is not worth the effort.

Breakfast time ;-)

@marmot So hibernation is finally over?

@samcarter Yes. @egreg is unfortunately slower than expected ;-)

@JosephWright "all tests pass"....

Uhm... I newly have the privilege to access review queues, "first posts" and "old answers". What is this and how does it work? Both are on zero.

@thymaro If a new user posts a question or answer you may review it welcoming him/her on the site and maybe ask for clarifications. Late answers is less common on this site, but basically you do the same like with first posts, but on answers that have been added to old (inactive) questions.

@thymaro If both queues are on zero everything is fine and there's no need for any reviews atm. If there is you will have dots next to the queue name in the menu.

@TeXnician perfect, thanks.

@marmot A bit slower than my own prediction. But you were expecting too much.

@egreg you've not had a palindrome recently so:

@DavidCarlisle Which is 1780 more than you. 😛

@egreg some of us have work to do

@PauloCereda ^^^^

@JosephWright vvv

@JosephWright @egreg PL3 ...

@DavidCarlisle Oh, I feared that you broke LaTeX again, but it's just the old bug.

@egreg not my fault:-)

@TeXnician, @Stefan Pinnow, @Bobyandbob, @PhelypeOleinik, @Mico For my opinion my question has been misunderstood and it has not been voted appropriately. I have edited many times my answer. Thank for your collaboration.

@egreg Very good your score. Excellent. After when you have a lot of time can you see my question? It seemed clear to me but it was badly understood in my opinion.

@Sebastiano I voted to reopen your question. Although I would remove the big-list tag you edited in...

@Sebastiano the question is understood (I wouldn't have voted it off topic but it has no sensible answer) why ask for a J that looks like that but not ask for a \sum that also looks like the hand written version?

@Sebastiano I won't answer: trying and reproduce what your teacher wrote on the blackboard doesn't make sense.

@Sebastiano And I think that Jhor's answer is pretty much what you are looking for. Maybe if you change the font and the kerning you'll get what you asked in the comment.

Good evening to everybody.

in the meantime I thank you always so much for your patience towards me and for the attention you give me. I hope the translator translates my Italian well.

@egreg I hope very much that you are not offended or angry with me because as you well know I would be very sick. I simply thought that something could be done and understand the limits of LaTeX. Same for David and everyone else.

@Sebastiano Not angry at all. These are not limits of TeX: when you want to communicate, you should use what is known to other people. Hand-made symbols are bad in general exactly for that reason.

@Sebastiano no one is angry but it is odd that every few months you come back to the site with the same question but a different character asking to change the shape of one character from the font that you have chosen. (a) teX doesn't support that and (b) it is just a bad idea to try to do it.

@PhelypeOleinik Thank you so much and everyone even if they vote negative my questions. I am here to learn. I left the comment you saw hoping I can make the necessary changes I asked

@DavidCarlisle Did it happen that you fell in love? :-) To me yes. I really like that kind of symbol. For me it is a memory of my prof. since I'm building the draft of our text. Meanwhile, I'm starting alone. Some of the paid mtpro2 characters are built by myself. There is a small problem. That when I put a colored background you see the white background of the character. Some I have arranged others not for reasons of time.

@JohnDoe-Nut Hi and welcome into chat

@Sebastiano the purpose of a document is that a reader can read it, if you just make up symbols then perhaps you can read it but no one else so what's the point. a font is a complete coherent work of art that is designed by a named human being, taking that work and tacking on spurious tails on the top of a J is like scribbling a frown on the mona lisa.

@DavidCarlisle I teach in an Artistic High School :-) here there are many drawings on all sides. Quiet I will never ask a question about the fonts again. I promise you. Here the negative question on J and continue to downvote for me. Will it probably be one of you? Aahahah. Joke of course.

@DavidCarlisle Thanks David for editing my question.

@Sebastiano I didn't vote on that question. It is certainly not a question to be upvoted and i don't downvote questions, so just closing it for some reason is probably the best. "off topic" because it is about font design, or "too broad" or some other reason, but actually I didn't vote to close either...

@Sebastiano Something like this?

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{amssymb}
\usepackage{times}
\usepackage{adjustbox}
\begin{document}
\pagenumbering{gobble}

\def\hJ{\clipbox{0 -0.05ex 0 0.1em}{$\mathrm{J}$}}
\def\hT{\raisebox{0.45em}{\clipbox{0 0.45em 0 0em}{$\mathrm{T}$}}}

\newcommand\JJ[1][12.74]{\hT\mkern -#1mu\hJ}
\newcommand\JJbf{\mbox{\boldmath$\JJ[12.23]$}}

$\JJ  : \square \mathbf{A} = \mu_0 \,\JJbf$
\end{document}

@PhelypeOleinik Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Perfect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can you wait to add into my tex document.

@PhelypeOleinik @Sebastiano now try searching the pdf for T,

@Sebastiano perfect if you want the pdf to be harder to read, less searchable and less accessible.

@DavidCarlisle No, that's fine. I have to try waiting on my document that is a mile long.

@Sebastiano ??

@DavidCarlisle my structure.tex is very long.

@Sebastiano it doesn't matter if if is one paragraph or 1000 pages, if you use the above you make it harder to read, harder to use with search tools and impossible to use with screen readers or other accessibility tools.

@PhelypeOleinik Could you please call the new symbol "\Umbrella"? ;-)

@DavidCarlisle @PhelypeOleinik the code not work well into my

@marmot aahhaahh Yes!!!

@DavidCarlisle I don't take responsibility for this :P

@DavidCarlisle If you select to one side it appears a T, and to the other, a J

@PhelypeOleinik You are doing what was asked, but sometimes the answer should be don't do that :-)

@Sebastiano It's because of the font you are using. Just tweak the kerns a little. Reduce a little the 12.74 and 12.23 in the code I gave you

@marmot LOL

@DavidCarlisle Just this one I wanted to see chaos :)

@PhelypeOleinik :-(

@Sebastiano @PhelypeOleinik fontasome also has an umbrella: \faUmbrella ;-)

@PhelypeOleinik It is a piece of my structure

@marmot Do not joke. :-) With all sincerity I'm putting my heart for this job. It is a dear and beloved memory of my father who is dead. He misses me day after day more and more and I know that I'm putting my soul.

@Sebastiano Sorry, I did not want to make fun of you! Scusi!

@Sebastiano sorry for your loss, but that does not change the fact that your question has no sensible answer as you are asking for something that is intrinsically wrong. Any answer will be something that is typographically ugly and technically leave the pdf suffering from faults in that it is not properly searchable or accessible

@PhelypeOleinik I have reduced \newcommand\JJ[1][12.23]{\hT\mkern -#1mu\hJ}

@PhelypeOleinik There is the same problem. But the your first output is excellent.

@DavidCarlisle Would it also be a problem if the symbol got created by stackengine?

@marmot yes sure, anything that just shuffles tex boxes around is going to search as JT or TJ or something. you could fiddle with the accsupp package to give screen readers a hint of the real text but still it's just weird to choose a font design for every letter except J..

@PhelypeOleinik @DavidCarlisle @egreg @marmot I thank you and everyone for your cooperation. I can no longer vote positively and if you can reopen my question waiting for an answer that works with my code I'm grateful. Goodnight to all. More cordial greetings. If you can find an answer that works with my preamble, I am infinitely grateful.

@Sebastiano sorry as I say I think closing the question is correct so I won't vote to re-open.

@Sebastiano You can fix it like this, for mtpro2:

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{amssymb}
\usepackage{times}
\usepackage[lite]{mtpro2}
\usepackage{adjustbox}

\newcommand{\hJ}{\clipbox{0 -0.05ex 0 0.1em}{$\mathrm{J}$}}
\newcommand{\hT}{\raisebox{0.45em}{\clipbox{0 0.45em 0 0em}{$\mathrm{T}$}}}

\newcommand\JJ[1][0.07em]{%
  \ooalign{\hT\cr\hidewidth\hJ\kern#1\hidewidth\cr}%
}

\begin{document}

$\mathrm{J}\JJ$

\end{document}

@Sebastiano But the symbol is ugly and completely out of place. Forget it.

@egreg for some definition of "fix"

@egreg \ooalign might have guessed.

@DavidCarlisle It was screaming for it.

@egreg \phantom would be better

Now I have a defence date! oh no

@DavidCarlisle oh no