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12:03 AM
So, is it close enough to Chrismas for me to put up my Christmas LaTeX contest?
 
12:19 AM
@cmhughes: Chris, the next TUG conference will be in Portland, Oregon! Yay!
 
 
8 hours later…
7:51 AM
@DavidCarlisle Well, the talk will be in a pub, so, there's really no need to hurry. That's one of the good things of a regulars table :-)
 
@Johannes_B ... and you can shorten slide 2 a bit :-)
 
@StephanLehmke Well, i could do so, but i want those guys (about 3 - 5?) to learn something. :-)
 
8:21 AM
@PauloCereda Will you go?
 
8:31 AM
Suggestions for some 'do not copy-paste answers' text to add to meta.tex.stackexchange.com/questions/4009/…?
 
9:03 AM
Found it :-(
 
9:25 AM
@JosephWright Since it's in the US, it's quite possible. :)
 
@PauloCereda Flights look not-cheap for me: at least £1400 I think
 
@JosephWright Oh my!
 
Sao Paulino Brazil (Populated Place, Parana) --> Portland Oregon (Populated Place) = 10699.2km

Sao Paulino Brazil (Populated Place, Parana) --> Hamburg Germany = 10550.1km

Germany is closer ;-)
 
And mods around?
 
@MarcoDaniel Not to mention you have a Lamborghini. :)
 
9:33 AM
tex.stackexchange.com/q/149310/5763 was closed as duplicate and the author edited an answer into the question (and the edit got approved). Could a mod make that "answer" a proper answer?
 
@MartinSchröder Yes
@MartinSchröder You can't answer closed questions
 
@JosephWright I know. The question was flagged to be reopened, but that vote is not going well ( I voted to keep it closed).
 
@MartinSchröder Don't see a need to reopen either: I'll just rollback the edit
 
@JosephWright Thanks.
 
10:02 AM
@DavidCarlisle: You know I am from Germany but I have never heard "Formeldreieck"
 
@MarcoDaniel They're quite popular for some physics teachers... :)
@Johannes_B I've been to a Stammtisch once. It was a rather boring experience :( ... half of the guys there didn't even say hello...
 
@cgnieder Thanks
 
10:33 AM
Dark times: I'm working with JQuery. Spooky.
 
@PauloCereda I like jQuery
Sometimes I wish LaTeX had an HTML like DOM and CSS.
 
@topskip I don't. :)
But I use it nevertheless. :)
 
@PauloCereda A good way to reverse the previous chat message ('I don't') :)
 
@topskip <3
 
11:21 AM
@MarcoDaniel thank goodness for google:-)
 
11:46 AM
@JosephWright How's the procedure for merging two accounts now? See tex.stackexchange.com/questions/137288/…
 
@TorbjørnT. Thanks!
 
12:11 PM
@egreg Powers have to do it
 
Anyone knows how to combine multirow with rowcolor in colored tables?
 
@JosephWright I know, but I had forgotten the procedure and where it can be found.
 
I need a rowspan (2) and colored background.
Perhaps I should write my own typesetting system.
Oh, well, I did.
Perhaps I should use my own typesetting system.
 
12:23 PM
@topskip Especially when it comes to tables ;-)
 
@StephanLehmke Yes. I am switching now. So much easier with tables than LaTeX.
 
12:41 PM
Excuse me guys for a while, I'm going to create all my 123 accounts :)
 
12:56 PM
@topskip Add the multirow in the last row, and use a negative row number.
 
@TorbjørnT. This seems to work.
thanks
Not the most intuitive interface, I'd say
 
@cgnieder The real regulars are friends by now. But some new faces are always there, not saying hello. Are they afraid?
 
@topskip No. It's actually documented though, at the end of section 2 in the manual. (A similar case, at least.)
 
@topskip do you think I ought to use latex?
@topskip well it wasn't designed: it just works that way by accident. colortbl (and its author) didn't know anything about multirow, so just lays the coloured panels in document order, so you need to make sure any text that goes over the panels comes later.
I should stop looking at this site :(
0
A: bold square root with bm

David CarlisleAh. This can not possibly be a bug, so it must be a (only slightly) documented feature. As mentioned in the bm manual, commands with optional arguments are locally modified inside \bm specifically so that \bm{\sqrt{xyz}} works. To see why you need \bm{{\sqrt{...}}} with an extra pair of braces...

 
1:15 PM
@DavidCarlisle You are the only one who can read the result of showoutput ;-)
 
@MarcoDaniel I think I have spent more time looking at showoutput output than typeset output from TeX:-)
2
 
@topskip tired of LaTeX? Try Patoline ;)
 
1:57 PM
@tohecz Any experience with it?
@tohecz btw: I'll visit Prague in februrary
@DavidCarlisle I've once listened to a presentation from the author of colortbl, I think it was in Oldenburg 1997 or 1998. He was standing in front of a big (huge!) colorful periodical table of elements and (if my memory is still intact) he was wondering why anyone should use color in tables.
 
2:13 PM
@Canageek What is that even? "How do I make my document look like it was written by Santa"?
 
2:25 PM
Speaking of contests, I have something crazy yet cute in mind. :)
 
@topskip ah, thankfully DANTE is more amenable to speakers using English than UKTUG would be of speakers using German:-)
 
@Johannes_B well, in my case I was the new face eager to get to know other TeX friends and of course I said hello. The regulars didn't :(
 
@cgnieder I feel sorry for you.
 
@topskip That's nice, enjoy it. I'll be in Paris ;)
 
@tohecz you're never there, are you?
 
2:31 PM
@topskip My cumulative time in Prague is longer than in Paris, maybe by one or two weeks :)
btw, I have no personal experience with Patoline, my colleage is the author tho. TBH, I wouldn't use it
 
@cgnieder My first touch with LaTeX was actually LyX, and at my home computer (without internet) nothing worked. So i asked our local TeX guy and he said: »Sunday evening is our Stammtisch, bring your files. But promise me to never use LyX again.«
 
Well my day job since 10 years was more or less created by a guy from ERCO coming to the Stammtisch, asking "could we do this in TeX"? ;-)
 
@StephanLehmke Unfortunately not every one of us can tex (used as a verb here) for a living :-(
 
@StephanLehmke Which Stammtisch?
 
@Johannes_B Well I'm working on it ;-)
@MarcoDaniel Dortmund. Unfortunately it more or less dissolved with my leaving University. In fact I'm not really the "Stammtisch"y type...
If I think back a bit, I know at least six people who are now TeXing (in the widest sense) for a living because of this one event ;-)
... and some more who at least used to for a while.
 
2:57 PM
@StephanLehmke Did you count me in?
 
@topskip Well yes, though we could probably discuss how tight the causal link between both events really is ;-)
 
@StephanLehmke Good question. I think that the link is very valid.
 
At least, your time here at QuinScape wasn't important enough to get a mention in your interview ;-)
 
@StephanLehmke That company fired me a few years ago, so I am not sure what is expected from me (and why).
 
@Johannes_B No need. Maybe it was just bad luck and I picked a bad day... :)
 
3:13 PM
@topskip My opinion about this has changed a bit. In retrospect, I think it was a very fair move ;-)
 
@StephanLehmke For me, it was an excellent move. But that doesn't change the fact that I owe nothing to that company.
 
@topskip That is extremely disheartening to hear, but clarifies a great deal.
 
(@StephanLehmke I should add that I really like some people there, including you, and I am sad that the business decisions / situation makes it hard to express / keep up that good relationship... we once had)
 
4:00 PM
Anybody got texlive 2013?
Can someone give me the (console-)output of the following lualatex document?
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{luacode}

\begin{document}

\begin{luacode*}
match = unicode.utf8.match
if match("à","%s")  then
   print("\n\nspace\n\n")
else
   print("\n\nnot space\n\n")
end
\end{luacode*}
\end{document}
 
The complete one?
 
@topskip Log file?
This is LuaTeX, Version beta-0.76.0-2013070317 (rev 4627)  (format=lualatex 2013.9.22)  11 DEC 2013 17:03
 restricted \write18 enabled.
**test.tex
(./test.tex
LaTeX2e <2011/06/27>
Babel <3.9f> and hyphenation patterns for 78 languages loaded.
(/usr/local/texlive/2013/texmf-dist/tex/latex/base/article.cls
Document Class: article 2007/10/19 v1.4h Standard LaTeX document class
(/usr/local/texlive/2013/texmf-dist/tex/latex/base/size10.clo
File: size10.clo 2007/10/19 v1.4h Standard LaTeX file (size option)
 
This is LuaTeX, Version beta-0.76.0-2013070317 (rev 4627) (format=lualatex 2013.7.1) 11 DEC 2013 17:02
restricted \write18 enabled.
**patrickLuaTest.tex
(./patrickLuaTest.tex
LaTeX2e <2011/06/27>
Babel <3.9f> and hyphenation patterns for 78 languages loaded.
(/usr/local/texlive/2013/texmf-dist/tex/latex/base/article.cls
Document Class: article 2007/10/19 v1.4h Standard LaTeX document class
(/usr/local/texlive/2013/texmf-dist/tex/latex/base/size10.clo
File: size10.clo 2007/10/19 v1.4h Standard LaTeX file (size option)
 
@Johannes_B just the end of the console output (not the log file)
I'd like to find out if à is considered as a space character
 
@topskip (./patrickLuaTest.aux)

space


(./patrickLuaTest.aux) )
262 words of node memory still in use:
2 hlist, 1 vlist, 1 rule, 2 glue, 39 glue_spec, 2 write nodes
avail lists: 2:12,3:1,5:1,6:3,7:1,9:1
No pages of output.
Transcript written on patrickLuaTest.log.
 
4:07 PM
@Johannes_B Thanks. That makes me wonder what else is considered whitespace ...
 
@topskip are there spaces missing in your code? \n\nspace\n\n
 
@Johannes_B no. The unicode library matches "space" on the input character à which doesn't look like a space to me.
 
@topskip But even inserting spaces comes to the same result: space
 
But it doesn't match "space" on the input character á (accent in the other direction)
 
@topskip I just noticed, this isn't tex. I was in another place right now.
 
4:10 PM
@topskip I didn't like the sound anyway.
 
@topskip Just tested with a few other accented chars, but à is the only one by now.
 
@Johannes_B probably because the utf-8 sequence ends with 0A and this could be considered a space character (but which would be invalid in utf-8)
 
@topskip a nbsp is "00a0 AFAIR
 
this unicode.utf8.* unicode handling is not intuitiive
@Johannes_B exactly. But a0 is invalid in utf-8
... as a standalone byte
 
How does the matching algorithm work?
 
4:16 PM
@Johannes_B I have no idea. But it's probably based on bytes, not on utf-8 sequences. This is the culprit. When I add anchors to the pattern (^%s$) everything is fine.
 
@topskip where is this function coming from? The luatex kernel?
 
@Johannes_B unicode.utf8.* is from the selene unicode library which comes bundled with LuaTeX
 
Maybe %s is somehow the wrong syntax, always referring to a byte? Looks regexp-y to me.
 
@StephanLehmke I tried to find out if a character is a space character or not. %s used to work for my cases.
... and string.match(str,pattern) is somewhat regexp like
 
@topskip If it's a bug, it's a bad one. A lot of UTF8 characters have A0 in them.
 
4:30 PM
@StephanLehmke I guess it's broken by design. All regular Lua string functions also work binary data (which makes sense in an 8-bit world) and the selene unicode library is a drop in replacement for Lua's string functions. So they should behave according to the standard functions. But it's hard to determine how to behave when we have utf8 sequences...
they could be treated as 8-bit bytes (everything is valid) or utf-8 sequences (with start, with an end with valid combinations or not)
 
I fail to see the difficulty. I'd have thought that by declaring unicode.utf8.match you've implicitly selected treating everything as utf-8.
 
@StephanLehmke In Lua (and with selene loaded) you can say string=unicode.utf8 and with a magic, all string functions can also handle utf8.
When you do that, unicode.utf8 should not alter the standard string behaviour. Otherwise your old programs will break
This design decision is IMO a bad thing (the decision that selene is a drop-in replacement for string), but we can't change it
Too bad Lua doesn't handle utf8 natively
 
You could make your own version of %s by OR-listing all Z.. characters explicitly.
 
@StephanLehmke It works fine when I add anchors (^%s$)
 
@topskip ... until you try to find out whether some string contains a space.
 
4:44 PM
@StephanLehmke yes, that will fail again. But my use case is checking a single character and transform it to a node sequence (a -> glyph node, space: glue node, ...)
 
@topskip Which is a bit of a joke, really ;-)
 
@StephanLehmke yes. yes. yes.
 
@topskip There you go down the road to copy-paste hell ;-)
 
@StephanLehmke That's another reason I like the programming language 'Go' much. It comes from the utf-8 inventors and thus is pretty good at handling it.
(gotta go to play badminton)
 
@topskip So maybe we should sit down and develop goTeX. Sounds nice too ;-)
 
4:47 PM
@StephanLehmke yes, please!
 
Can't be that hard.
 
probably not hard, but still lot's of effort
 
@topskip uh, you didn't get that joke ;-) I was thinking back to DANTE Hamburg '92, Phil Taylor and NTS ;-)
 
5:14 PM
@PauloCereda You will especially appreciate the comment thread here: tex.stackexchange.com/a/146178/2693 especially the last one. :)
 
@AlanMunn Oh my! :)
 
@AlanMunn This cloud thingie is really cool.
 
@Johannes_B It is. Some people in my field are using it to visualize qualitative research results as well. I'm not sure whether that's a good idea, but it makes for some interesting poster eye candy.
 
5:42 PM
@StephanLehmke Oh, so I have to be crazy really considering this?
:)
 
@topskip Well I think you are involved in LuaTeX development, so probably you know very well what amount of work that is.
I guess it all depends on how much like TeX you want the result to be.
Personally, I would probably be satisfied with "somewhat like TeX".
 
6:43 PM
@PauloCereda Yes, he died a while back, didn't he?
 
@Brent.Longborough Yes. :) I'm working on a mussumlipsum. :)
 
7:22 PM
So, should I put up my Christmas challenge today?
Also; what happens at these TeX meetup things? Portland isn't that far from me, I could get there but well, my budget is a bit tight
 
@Canageek Sounds good
@Canageek What are the rules?
@Canageek Once a year for TUG
 
@JosephWright Working on that. I was thinking of having people draw something; I'm debating between Santa Claus and Krampus. The best one gets the reputation I'd put down on it (I was thinking 500 or so; not like I'm using it for anything). I'd also have honorable mention categories for the best one done with pure TeX and the best one done without pgf or TikZ, though they wouldn't get an award.
@JosephWright @StephanLehmke had a good idea, which was Make my document look like it was written by Santa Claus
 
8:02 PM
What does a tug membership include? I ask this because I thought with the membership you got reports and a dvd and a shirt (just kidding with this one) and other stuff but to this moment I have not gotten anything from them. I got my membership through TeX.SX
 
8:21 PM
@azetina You need to check with the TUG office. Maybe your membership is set to "electronic only". :)
 
But i have no emails, nothing just my access to the tug membership area
 
@azetina You should be able to get the PDF versions of TUGBoat
 
@JosephWright Where is that?
 
@azetina tug.org/tugboat then find the current year's issues
 
Still waiting for feedback on my contest idea....
 
8:37 PM
@PauloCereda Sledgehammer concerto on. :(
 
@egreg Uh oh. :)
 
Is there a way to do the equivalent of an R coord_flip() (graphs) for a LaTeX table? I'd like to change the table header to be on left, rather than up top. Hope that makes sense.
I've looked at sidewaystable and rotating, but those flip everything, essentially I need it to render by just rotating all data 90deg.
Transpose it, so to say
 
9:06 PM
@ForkrulAssail Not in general, despite the brilliant answer there;-)
 
I blame R for making me think in data transformation mode constantly. Thanks btw.
 
@Canageek I had to look up Krampus in wikipeia to know what it was:-)
@ForkrulAssail R presumably has things like data structure and arrays and stuff. TeX is a macro expansion language designed for a machine with the memory capacity of a Stanford mainframe in 1980, and it wants to get rid of stuff as soon as it can...
 
@Canageek, I vote Krampus. Algo horns, hooved claws. +can't wait to see @DavidCarlisle's version.
@DavidCarlisle, understandably.
@DavidCarlisle I can work with LaTeX, Argh is aging me before my time.
 
10:02 PM
Evening! For the first time just a minute ago, I got completely confused by the black top bars of SE and Google
@DavidCarlisle Is it possible to easily change just the basic math alphabet from the normal one to \mathit, but keeping numbers as they are?
 
@tohecz The font used by \mathit is text italic, that lacks the necessary parameters to qualify as a math letter font.
 
@egreg this is for nomenclature, however, I realized just now that it's a non-sense. If the people need \mathit{Re} elsewhere, they will easily use it there as well
OTOH, using \mathrm for the units field seems to work well (remember, I can't force all authors to have sufficiently new TL for siunitx)
 
@tohecz \DeclareMathSymbol{1}{\mathalpha}{operators}{1}` the \mathalpha is what makes the digit change fonts change it to \mathord and digits won't change, then you just need to arrange to make \fam change to the \mathit font and letters will change but digits won't
 
I just can't think out a nice way how to design the nomenclature:
@DavidCarlisle yeah, I knew you'll think out something like that. However, as I said to @egreg, I came to the conclusion that it's a non-sense.
 
@tohecz I'd get rid of the dashes
 
10:12 PM
@egreg completely? And in case authors don't want to specify the units?
 
@tohecz The unit goes at the end
 
@egreg In that case, there need to be something between the symbol and the text
 
@tohecz A colon? Or just a quad
 
@egreg tabbing-like design? No, what if they have one \mathit{Thisismysymbol}
 
@tohecz Maybe. But a wide space might suffice.
 
10:21 PM
@tohecz you could invert it with lines like Vessel diameter: $D[m^2s]$ so the text lines up and the symbols just fall where they fall, it wouldn't look so ragged then perhaps.
 
@DavidCarlisle OTOH, it's basically an index of symbols (the title "Nomenclature" will change, Language Editor said)
 
@tohecz Oh, and the units don't go between square brackets; parentheses should be used.
 
@tohecz shrug, the order is fairly arbitrary it seems:-)
 
@egreg everyone seems to use these :-/ not something I've thought out
@DavidCarlisle I'm more thinking about making a "minimal width" of the symbol, so that the very short ones like n get a bit more space
 
@tohecz Brackets are for “abstract dimensions”, not for units.
 
10:24 PM
@egreg probably depends field-to-field. In all articles I've ever typeset, the units were like this
if not [Pa.s] awwww
ok, I should get rid of the first line indent, and I'll be fine
So, is there a simple way how to make something "wide at least something", or do I need to box it?
 
@tohecz Box.
 
and something like \ifdim\wd0>2em\else\wd0 2em\relax\fi works, right?
 
10:40 PM
@tohecz Hmm, I don't see what good can come from reducing the box's width.
 
@egreg I don't reduce it, I add (there's \else inbetween, however, I changed it to make the code clearer)
 
@tohecz Ah, yes.
 
@egreg So the last thing, I should probably change the order of the parameters from {Symb}[unit]{Description} to {Symb}{Description}[unit] to comply with the final order ... or rather not?
 
@tohecz If they are arguments to a macro, what's the need of changing the order?
 
@egreg to make our senile profs less confused Oh I forgot, those send the articles in W@$# anyways :P
 
10:47 PM
@tohecz If the unit argument is optional, it should better go first.
 
@egreg yeah, maybe. I'm not sure what's better TBH
 
@tohecz Uniform syntax?
 
@egreg probably
(say that to beamer authors ;) )
 
@tohecz :)
 
@egreg btw, to say something is unitless, would you use $-$ or -- ?
 
10:53 PM
@tohecz “unitless”
 
@egreg literally?
 
Or “adimensional”
 
$\text{...}$ is boxed whence unbreakable, right?
 
@tohecz Yes
 
@egreg well, I gotta stick to -- for now I think
 
11:18 PM
@ForkrulAssail @DavidCarlisle Ok, writing it now.
Question; What other fancy graphics packages are there other then pgf and TikZ?
 
@Canageek \begin{picture}
 
@DavidCarlisle Right, make sure I specify it has to be drawn in *TeX
 
@Canageek pstricks. Could include Metapost and Asymptote as well.
 
@TorbjørnT. Got it.
What tags should I give this?
0
Q: Draw me a picture of Krampus for Yule

CanageekI've volunteered to use some of my Cthulhu reputation to sponsor a Christmas/holiday contest. You all have aced previous holiday questions, so I'm going to give you a bit more of a challenge: Draw me Krampus, the Krampus is a beast-like creature who punishes bad children at Christmas. I'll judge...

 
11:37 PM
@Canageek you should certainly not introduce new tags. I'd say is certainly ok, and I'd go for
 
@tohecz is about including external files, is about (vector) graphics created in TeX.
 
@TorbjørnT. oh yeah, I basically went through tags related to
 

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