TeX, LaTeX and Friends - 2012-07-09

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2:47 AM

@PauloCereda I'm just making a cake called "Donauwelle" :-)

Donauwelle (lt:Danube wave) is a traditional sheet cake popular in Germany and Austria. It's a pound cake with sour cherries, buttercream, cocoa and chocolate and like a Marble cake bright and dark cake batter are mixed into each other to create swirl effects. Due to its wavy pattern inside and its chocolate decoration that resembles waves it got its name although the derivation of the term "Donau" is not clear. It could be a hint to the prevalence of the cake that is popular in those states that the river Donau flows through . Another name is Schneewittchenkuchen which means Snow-Whi...

It's a bit of work (well, medium really, but more than the simple types), but the yield is spectacular, so it's good for parties ;-)

2 hours later…

4:40 AM

if i have TL2011 and install TL2012, what happen when I run tlmgr in a command prompt?

user19161

4:52 AM

@leo It depends on how you set the path in your OS.

@JasperLoy So If I want to invoke the new tlmgr I have to enter the whole path

user19161

@leo No. You can set it so that it uses exactly one of many.

@JasperLoy the problem is I probably would want to use sometimes the old sometimes the new one

user19161

@leo Haha, then use the full path.

okay

3 hours later…

Brent.Longborough

7:39 AM

What's the canonical q/a on "Why not to use [H] with floats"?:

0

Q: Why have my enumerate environments been corrupted and how can I fix the issue?

I am using the ut-thesis template, and this is what stock bulleted lists look like: \usepackage{enumitem} %... \begin{itemize} \item{I like margin} \item{I like margarine} \end{itemize} \begin{itemize}[leftmargin=0pt] \item{I don't like} \item{I don't like margarine} \end{itemize} But no...

spacing enumerate

@BrentLongborough I am sure this is explained in one of, if not several, of the manuals. Although I could not find it in a reasonable time.

@BrentLongborough I guess the most obvious answer is that it breaks with the theme of the user being in control of the content, and letting latex take care of the appearance.

Brent.Longborough

8:32 AM

@N3buchadnezzar Yes, I think I see this "problem" very often on the site. What I suspect people are looking for with this is figure captioning and TOC without the float.

@AlanMunn You're a linguist but you're not on here? :)

@BrentLongborough I have sometimes been looking for that as well. Most of the times float is prefferable, but sometimes one absolutely can not have the figure floating.

A grumpy proffesor, or a boss is one reason for not having floating figures.

Another way is of course to select where floats can float (placeins), whether that is a better solution is another discussion.

Brent.Longborough

8:48 AM

@N3buchadnezzar Thank goodness, I'm old enough and grumpy enough politely to ignore professors, and to tell bosses to stop micro-managing my typography. :) But I do find LaTeX's float placement, sometimes, a bit irritating, even when it's on my own account.

[!htbp] solves my worries in 90% of the cases

@N3buchadnezzar but using ! is a sign that something is wrong.:-)

IT IS LIKE USING CAPSLOCK WHEN TYPING

Brent.Longborough

9:10 AM

@N3buchadnezzar What I think I lack is a "golden rule for dummies": 'I have a small piece of text and a figure that I want to appear together on the same page; how do I order my source to achieve this?'

O, and BTW, I can't put the text in the figure because the text can't float.

Perhaps a minipage or the [!htbp] "trick", but I guess there is so many exceptions that it is hard to make a golden rule

1. Do you absolutely must have the figure in a specific place? (Can you not refer to it?)
1.5 are you really, really, really sure your figure can not float? (check out placeins)
2. for finer control use \figure[!htbp]... (h is here, t is top, b is bottom, p is page )
3. Still not satisifed? A last resort is to use H from the float package.

9:37 AM

@BrentLongborough Defer everything to the final revision, when the text won't change any more. Remember that Murphy's law will conjure against you: usually the best attainable result is that the image is on the same spread as the text that refers to it. If you have onesided printing, you're on your own.

1 hour later…

10:42 AM

@StephanLehmke ooh epic cake is epic! :)

11:27 AM

Using H for float placement gives me the idea of King Leonidas shouting "Spartans! Tonight we dine in hell! And speaking of hell, let's put this float HERE!". :)

3

Spartans! Lets Start this! Lets show them who`s the hardest!

ooh epic rap battles! :)

Brent.Longborough

11:41 AM

@egreg Yes, of course, that was taken as read. Basically what I want is to look at the last-PDF-but-1, move a block of source, and then the last PDF is perfect. BTW, do I look like someone who does 'one-side typography'? You'll be asking if I use \raggedbottom next! :)

@PauloCereda Yes, there is, I think, something fundamentally flawed at the level of logic when you say in the same breath "I want this to float, but I want it HERE"

@BrentLongborough Yes and no. Floats are logic structures about content: 'this is a figure', etc.

Brent.Longborough

@egreg Reminds me of my time as a subversive working for BigCorp. I didn't confront things directly, but I always used to say "If I were in charge this would all be different"

@BrentLongborough Indeed. :) It's like a non-floatable float. :)

@BrentLongborough Or double spacing. :)

Brent.Longborough

@JosephWright I was hoping (slightly) that no-one eminent would say that :). I think the implementation's a bit of a mixup, in some ways, between syntactic markup and explicit document layout. No complaints, though, this is a difficult area to separate them out. Ideally, it might be nice (though not typographically speaking) to be able to say, in a simple manner, "this ain't a float, but it's for the table of figures nonetheless"

11:57 AM

It seems strange that a figure in theory needs to float, in order to be able to label it and add a caption.

Brent.Longborough

Yes, and a tabular, although there are, I think, more options for that.

@N3buchadnezzar I think the LaTeX3 plan is to have the floating (or not) as one keyval option

Brent.Longborough

But I do understand the original idea of an illustration around which the text could flow automatically.

@JosephWright I was just about to mention LaT3X :)

@N3buchadnezzar So you've seen @PauloCereda's logos

Brent.Longborough

11:59 AM

@JosephWright That's really nice (though I fear it will produce some horrid vertical boxes :-P)

Shouldn't that be LaT<3X

@JosephWright Yes. Now hopefully the float thing is something that can be set to true/false globaly, and then a keyval option for each figure.

Brent.Longborough

Maybe LaT<3X. Browser typography isn't.

And the keming's lousy.

If you turn your head the wrong way, it looks like a female with her hands folded.

@BrentLongborough kerning?

Brent.Longborough

@N3buchadnezzar Told you it was lousy... :)

@BrentLongborough The point is that xor (Frank's experimental output routine) is written from the ground up with an idea of 'Here' figures built-in

Brent.Longborough

12:03 PM

@JosephWright I'm really rooting for all this. It's comforting to know that lots of very competent and dedicated people are involved. Thank you all.

Hopefully I am still alive when it releases

@N3buchadnezzar Prod @DavidCarlisle to help with xor :-)

Brent.Longborough

@N3buchadnezzar I'm 67. How old are you?

@BrentLongborough A tad over 20, but I was half joking about it.

Brent.Longborough

@N3buchadnezzar Well, if the man in the black van comes for me before it's out, he's really going to get an earfull...

12:07 PM

Anyway loong development time, but I am not complaining. It will for sure be worth the wait.

Is this site the place for asking questions about typhography, kerning, and such?

@Alenanno No. I've browsed it a bit, but don't find the questions very interesting (and often not very amenable to the Stackexchange model.)

Brent.Longborough

@N3buchadnezzar I think it may be, as "best practice". Easiest way is to try a question and see how people react. I think this is one of the 'slightly more liberal' sites.

@BrentLongborough wow, great idea for a T-shirt. :) spoiler alert: soon we will have a LaTeX3 shop. :)

Brent.Longborough

@PauloCereda You can have that under a CC-Zero licence. :) (Really)

@BrentLongborough Yay, thanks. :)

12:18 PM

I am unsure when to nest parenthesis and when not do so so, and so forth.

@PauloCereda Where we can buy \expandafter and more \raggedbottoms ? =)

@N3buchadnezzar Buy the LaT3X T-shirt in the next 20 minutes and we will send you some of them. :)

=)

12:33 PM

Should I try to write ...5\cdotx+x^2 or 5\cdot{x}+x^2 or 5{\cdot}x+x^2 ... ?

@AlanMunn But it still works. You're welcome to propose more interesting questions. :P

user image

@BrentLongborough: now we profit. :)

12:58 PM

@JosephWright is km/h supported in siunitx?

@N3buchadnezzar \sisetup{per-mode = symbol} ... \si{\kilo\metre\per\hour} or similar

Thanks how silly of me

@N3buchadnezzar or perhaps \DeclareSIUnit[per-mode = symbol]{\kmh}{\kilo\metre\per\hour}

Clever, and if one would want customization, I could use

\DeclareSIPrefix\time{t}{} ?

Or rather I the hour to be displayed as t (norwegian)

@N3buchadnezzar There is nothing to stop you redefining \hour using \DeclareSIUnit if that makes sense for you. It depends on course on the context (many people in English use hr for 'hour', which is wrong but ...)

1:08 PM

So

\DeclareSIUnit[per-mode = symbol]{\hour}{t}
in the preamble should fix it? Seems a tad strange as the others uses
\DeclareSIUnit[number-unit-product = {}]
\degree{\SIUnitSymbolDegree}

@N3buchadnezzar Ah no, doesn't quite work like that

@N3buchadnezzar Options set for a specific unit apply only to that unit when used alone, and not when it's used in a combination

As a result, your set up would not alter the output of for example \kilo\metre\per\hour

Oh I see, I really tried reading your manual. But setting up these things are quite complex for an inexperienced texer as me.

@N3buchadnezzar The reason it works this way is that it would soon become impossible to tell what the 'expected' outcome was, for example if two base units had opposite settings and were then used together. At a technical level, it's also slightly easier to implement!

I should perhaps add another example on this

@JosephWright Is there any way to write \hour and get out "t" then ? (Sorry for being so silly)

@N3buchadnezzar \DeclareSIUnit{\hour}{t}

The [per-mode = symbol] part would be redundant as there is no \per to alter in the defintion

2:00 PM

Thanks that fixed all problems

I just needed an easy way to convert back to the old standard if needed

Brent.Longborough

2:14 PM

@PauloCereda That's it!

2:32 PM

user image

3

2 hours later…

4:06 PM

@egreg: can I ask you a newbie question?

4:34 PM

@PauloCereda Just arrived home.

@egreg Oh. :)

@PauloCereda Today I went to work with the scooter, because I had exams at the other side of the town, in the afternoon. Return trip not so enjoyable because of traffic and hotness.

@egreg Treat yourself then =)

@egreg Ouch. Heavy traffic is a pain. :( How's the weather? Yesterday night was pretty cold here, around 13ºC.

13thats hot!

4:41 PM

@PauloCereda Almost no cloud. Typical midsummer day (but we're only at the beginning)! Highest 32ºC.

@egreg Ah the summer. :)

@egreg: I was curious about the "date parameter" when loading a package (e.g, \usepackage{imakeidx}[2012/05/09]). I wonder where the "date" check happens.

4:59 PM

@PauloCereda The date check happens just when the package is loaded; it should have a line of the form \ProvidesPackage{xyz}[yyyy/mm/dd Optional info] and \ProvidesPackage checks the date in the argument with the one asked for with \usepackage. The optional argument will become also the expansion of \ver@xyz.sty which is used for not loading a package twice: if it's defined, only the date check will be performed and possibly a warning is issued.

@egreg Ah, got it. :) Thanks.

1 hour later…

6:11 PM

Salutations all

I have a quick question: Is there any way to update TeXLive without just redownloading everything?

@Canageek tug.org/texlive/upgrade.html But use at own risk.

Speaking of TL2012, the ISO is now available! Not in all mirrors though (DANTE FTW!).

@PauloCereda But I can't understand why there are no updates available? Maybe it will take a bit.

@MarcoDaniel I think so. :) The ISO took one (!) whole day to be available. :)

I need TeX. :)

6:30 PM

@egreg Why the disclaimer? Bad things happen in past? Downloading and deleting the old files isn't hard, and I've got a blazing fast net connection here

7:12 PM

@MarcoDaniel Updates don't get added at all during the freeze, so Karl et al. have to catch up

7:26 PM

@JosephWright Moar updates! :)

For those who want to learn Git: try.github.com

@Canageek It's not foolproof nor recommended. Some small changes in the organization of the files might leave something undesirable. Just install the new one and you'll have the old as a safety net.

Ah, I already uninstalled the old one for disk space

@Canageek It's new: in the past there was no upgrade route at all

I'm intrigued to see that one of my siunitx comments has been starred!

@JosephWright ^^

@JosephWright There was an upgrade page also in the past. I believe that the procedure has been polished up, but it's not still very safe.

7:39 PM

@egreg Really? I certainly got the impression it's more realistic this year

@JosephWright Really. :) Never tried, though.

@egreg Same here: I need the separate systems for testing, so it does not make sense for me

Turn on virus scanner? Yeah, not happening. I'll manually click through everything, thanks. v.v

Speaking of which, I really should update my Windows installation

@JosephWright Which version are you running? :)

7:41 PM

@PauloCereda Of Windows or of TL?

@JosephWright I too. :P

@JosephWright Windows. :) I suppose you have already the bleeding edge TL2013 alpha version. :)

@PauloCereda On my Mac, I have Windows 7 Ultimate via Parallels

At work, when I get back, it will be Windows 7 Pro

A problem of jumping from Ubuntu to Windows 7: In the former, Ctrl + Alt + <arrow key> switches between desktops, in the latter it rotates the view.

I was a bit confused the first time I accidentally rotated the view 90 degrees.

@JosephWright Ah. :) Speaking of Parallels, I'm thinking of buying one license when I get my Mac by the end of this month. :)

7:45 PM

@PauloCereda Works for me, though of course it is costly. At work, I set up a friend with Ubuntu using VirtualBox (Windows host OS) and was very impressed. So I'll be doing that when I get a new work PC

@JosephWright I used VirtualBox in a Windows host and it was very good. On Linux... well, it was a traumatic experience. Now, on Mac, I have no idea how it would behave. :) Something that surprised me was the native stuff from Parallels.

The natives huh

@PauloCereda I do like the integration, which I use for Windows ('Coherence'). I don't use that for Ubuntu as you have to turn off Unity, and that seems to be tricky. Not sure about Fedora: I've not tried it

@N3buchadnezzar Pilgrims FTW. :P

I think I've mentioned before that I need a number of Windows-only programs for work

7:50 PM

@JosephWright Fedora relies on Gnome Shell, which is similar to Unity - AFAIK both relies on Gnome 3. I've tested Cinnamon for my netbook and it was very nice - it looks like Gnome 2.

@PauloCereda It works quite good, IMO.

Me ugh Windows, me ugh have Solitary and can browse web. Me make old lady grandma happy

@egreg Nice to know. :) I might try it first before acquiring Parallels. :)

Hopefully, I'll get a beast with 8GB RAM. :)

@N3buchadnezzar Oh wow Man, I'm a Mac. I'm gonna stare at this spinning ball cus it is so deep man. Oh Wow, man, have you seen all the chrome on this dock? You can totally SEE THROUGH IT. Mannnnnnnnnn. Deep.

I'll be very disappointed if Lion can't be installed on a 8GB RAM Mac. :P

7:52 PM

@PauloCereda Works fine with 4 Gb: I have 8 Gb now as that's handy for running OS X/Windows/Linux at the same time :-)

@PauloCereda Plus another 4 GB for the graphics card. ;)

4 Gb was fine, to be honest, running OS X + Windows

@JosephWright Ooh two VM's! /me wants it

@Canageek Ah yes! :)

@Canageek Mac be toy boy, listen to bieber. Windows be real man.

@PauloCereda Before I upgraded the RAM, it was still doable but probably not that sensible

7:53 PM

Then it will probably complain about the disc space. Minimum required: 2 TB. :P

@JosephWright I see. :) When I had my Linux VM's, it was basically init 3 (no GUI).

You know, these days you can take all those old Windows jokes Unix users made in the 90s, scratch out Windows and right in Mac

@N3buchadnezzar I suspect real men probably run OpenBSD from the command line, or Debian without the Ubuntu 'wrapper', or something. (I once tried to install Debian, about 12 years ago ...)

I'm a former Slackware user, respect my geekness, please.

3

@PauloCereda Not a geek any more? Oh, yes, a wannabe Mac user. :P

@JosephWright I think I did install Debian once, then got frusterated and left it

7:56 PM

@Canageek Yup, sounds like my experience

@egreg Oh still a geek. :) But I was tired of compiling my kernel over and over. :P

@Canageek I keep hoping that I'll be able to switch to Linux, but until I can get ChemDraw running properly with Word (via Wine), that's not happening

@JosephWright Mac; Toy. Windows; Bloatware. Linux; British car (Runs amazingly, when running. Otherwise an expensive paperweight)

@PauloCereda I remember well when we had to adapt a machine with a Pentium 100 (and probably Slackware, but I don't remember) to be a router for the department (we just moved and hadn't yet bought the machines): just to make it see a new Ethernet card a driver had to be installed and the kernel recompiled. During the night, of course. But it worked.

@Canageek My parents had a number of British cars. I'm afraid that 'runs when running' is fairer

8:00 PM

The students in charge of the business were real geeks!

@JosephWright Ah, ok. I've just always been told that if you have one you either have to know a good mechanic and be rich, or be your own mechanic

@Canageek That's the sports car end, where it's probably true. I'm thinking more of mid-1980s family cars (or indeed our Sunbeam, which when we sold it after 5 years was basically a wreck!)

@JosephWright Why would I want anything other then a British sports car? If I want reliable I'll get a Toyota.

@Canageek That's what most other people decided too :-)

@egreg I can relate to that. :) I'm a fan of Slackware since earlier versions and I learned a lot from it. :) I'd love to stick with Slack, but it's quite painful to ./configure; make; make test; make install every time these days, not the mention the manual dependencies handling. The distro itself is a beauty: powerful, lightweight and efficient.

8:07 PM

@PauloCereda If you are going that far why not use Linux From Scratch?

@Canageek I never tried, but people told me good things about it. :) I'm eager to try Gentoo too. :)

Now excuse me, I need to swear at ChemSketch while I try and draw a compound with lots of aromatic nitrogen and carbenes.

2

@Canageek LOL

@PauloCereda What on earth are you running that you'd be able to notice the speed difference?

@PauloCereda Such things don't draw well, as they have formal charges all over the place. I'm drawing a 6 member ring; 4 of the members "have charges"

@PauloCereda Flash is still disabled, but I'm hearing the "boing" for chat messages.

8:10 PM

All that drawing to find out it has a molecular weight of 785.7 g/mol sigh Still easier then counting by hand, but I wish I could just point software at the crystal structure

@Canageek I used to have some legacy C code doing some parallel stuff via MPI. At those times, we had to optimize every bit of code, including the underlying libraries. Nowadays, I just want stability (from C to Java - from a Lamborghini to a wagon). :P

Yay, TeXLive is half done downloading

@Canageek Ouch, it's a pain when our tools don't do what we want.

@PauloCereda You are using JAVA for that? shudders

@egreg On Safari? :)

8:12 PM

@Canageek Any reason to prefer it over ChemTrails?

@PauloCereda Yes.

@PauloCereda Part of the problem is that when the rules for structure drawing were written I don't think they had carbenes in mind. @JosephWright probably knows more about this stuff.

@Canageek Not for that, but I played with RMI too. :) It was fun.

@N3buchadnezzar Never heard of that before. Is it free?

By the way, @PauloCereda reminded me of this: 9gag.com/gag/4681109

@Canageek I meant ChemFig =)

8:16 PM

@egreg I found a native sound support in the HTML when Flash is not available. :) That's why the sound is still playing. :)

Also ctan.org/pkg/modiagram

@PauloCereda It didn't till today.

@Canageek LOL the C explanation is a sad but true reality. :) Our beloved \0. :)

@egreg Odd. Maybe some caching?

@PauloCereda Maybe it loaded when I was looking at the Monty Python sketch.

@egreg Ah that would explain it. :)

8:22 PM

Am I stupid or is this answer completely wrong? tex.stackexchange.com/a/62759/11002

@N3buchadnezzar Not used that either I've used ChemSketch, ChemDraw and Symex Draw (Formerly Isis Draw)

@N3buchadnezzar Because I don't need a sketch; I want to draw it so I can have ChemSketch calculate the molecular weight for me

Ah!

@PauloCereda I prefer C strings to C++ strings though. Less fancy stuff going on, less syntax to remember.

I assumed you wanted a \LaTeX figure!

@Canageek Agreed. :)

8:24 PM

How many languages do you guys know!

@N3buchadnezzar Also I don't think ChemFig gives publication quality diagrams. As far as I know only ChemDraw is considered good enough for that.

@N3buchadnezzar I know some C, and a little C++. I've used Java back in High School, and first learned programming through QBASIC. Oh, and I've used bash a fair bit.

Well I know Matlab.. and Maple, but that does not count, oh and a fair bit of Latex, but that does not count either.

1741/2128

Dammit, it keeps trying to download something and failing all of a sudden. What should I do in this case, try again with a new mirror?

Meh, working now.

tex-font-errors-cheatsheet?

@Canageek Chutulu-worshipping-madman-tex-font-error-cheatsheet?

48 minutes, not bad to download all of TeX Live

8:38 PM

Is there any reason to upgrade, when I am running MikTex?

@N3buchadnezzar They are very similar nowadays. I wrote a TUGBoat about this

tug.org/TUGboat/tb33-1/tb103wright.pdf

@N3buchadnezzar I've also had some 'additional points' from Reinhard Kotucha (one of the TL team), but focussed heavily on server installation

@N3buchadnezzar No. MikTeX will probably get updated too, although I don't think the schedules align.

@JosephWright Does MikTeX update binaries incrementally or only with each release?

@JosephWright One thing since that is that TeXLive is much stricter about licensing, so a lot of the fonts and PDF embedding packages aren't included.

@AlanMunn I've always had the impression there is some alignment between binary versions and releases, but I'm not sure if it's the same scheme as TeX Live. Christian has to do a reasonable amount of work to get MiKTeX's install-on-the-fly integrated into the code of anything new

@Canageek Christian Schenk has less time available to check, I think, as much as anything policy-related

@JosephWright Because the currently listed engine versions on the MikTeX page are behind even the TL 2011 ones, it seems.

8:45 PM

@AlanMunn Like I say, this is I think because of the work needed to add the package-installing magic

Sihg

Joseph do you know of any packages, or questions on the site that deal with simple venn-diagrams that scale with their sizes?

@N3buchadnezzar There will be a TikZ answer, but that's not my area

No no, I just wondered if it already existed, I tried searching. But I am a tad unsure about asking a question, sicne it might just be closed straight away.

@N3buchadnezzar Just out of curiosity (assuming your MikTeX is up-to-date) what version of e.g. LuaTeX are you running?

@N3buchadnezzar Searching "+venn +diagram" doesn't show anything of that kind

8:52 PM

@AlanMunn Oh, I am not running LuaTex, but I guess I could check. (How does one check?)

Is "Venn diagrams, relative so size of its content" a good title ?

@N3buchadnezzar On Mac/Linux you can just do from the command line luatex --version Is there a similar way to do this in Windows?

@AlanMunn The first line in a .log file shows the version

@egreg Yes, but that requires actually compiling a document. I was trying to avoid that.

@AlanMunn luatex "\bye"

user image

8:56 PM

@N3buchadnezzar It's the same as in TL 2011

@N3buchadnezzar Perfect. What that shows is that MikTeX does incrementally update binaries.

So there's very little need for you to update other than the usual MikTeX updates that you might run normally.

@N3buchadnezzar BTW, the problem with your first command was probably the lack of a space between luatex and --version.

Thats cool, thanks =)

Do you think this post is about Windows 8? Check the tags, LOL. blog.miktex.org/post/2011/09/MiKTeX-on-Windows-8.aspx

@JosephWright too busy (watching olympic torch:-) (and too old (don't ask))

@DavidCarlisle OK, you prod @FrankMittelbach then :-)

9:11 PM

@JosephWright you failed to spot the difference between my profile today and yesterday:(

@DavidCarlisle Ah, I see

@DavidCarlisle Still going to come to the meeting in October, I hope

@JosephWright yes I suppose I should think of something to talk about....

@DavidCarlisle I'm sure something will come up :-) They are pretty informal affairs

9:38 PM

@JosephWright Really? I thought there was a blog post about it

@JosephWright texdev.net/2012/03/27/the-tex-live-inclusion-policy and in specific: texdev.net/2012/03/27/the-tex-live-inclusion-policy/…

Wait, You wrote that blog post. Now I'm confused!

user19161

10:40 PM

@PauloCereda I thought Slackware users are slack.

10:55 PM

@JasperLoy I thought Slackware users wore slacks.

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