UX Chat

JohnGB

12:33 AM

@DanHulme Go big or go home I always say.

JonW

10:38 AM

Interesting site. I think the homepage is actually a live webcam. sagmeisterwalsh.com

JohnGB

If so, I'll bet nobody does anything naughty in that office

JonW

I want to phone their office to see if any of the phones in shot light up.

JohnGB

11:19 AM

:)

Always experimenting

Pesikar

@JonW "For a good time call (212) 647 1789" is one of the lines that appears in the bottom left...

JonW

@Pesikar I don't think my office would approve of me calling New York just for giggles.

I left that screen up for about 40 minutes. My Chrome browser got up to about 1.8GB memory usage so I had to terminate it before everything exploded.

Incase anyone missed the 'special' 1st April post on this site yesterday (and don't have rep to see deleted questions) here is a screencap of it:

5

Roger Attrill

12:33 PM

@JonW thanks for the edit - where'd I get Telegraph from!!

JonW

@RogerAttrill Guess you must've been reading Telegraph recently and it was still in your head. Good job you only referenced that and not 'Massive Jumblies Magazine' or something.

Roger Attrill

More likely to be the Beano in our house!

JonW

Didn't they close down the Beano recently?

Roger Attrill

I keep the MJMs under the Next catalogue 'cos no one else can lift it

Umm - Dandy maybe

JonW

Oh yeah, I remember all the Desperate Dan / Cow Pie articles in the news.

Dan Hulme

12:43 PM

Even as a kid I found Desperate Dan comics to be a bit samey

JohnGB

Have you ever read some of the comics that we had as kids when you were an adult and realised that they were really written for adults?

So much nuance that I missed as a kid, with lots of innuendo.

Sort of like most animated films come to think of it.

JohnGB

1:18 PM

Does anyone know of an Android equivalent to the iPod touch?

JonW

@JohnGB Not exactly. Things like Nexus7 don't have phone connections so are wifi only, but I imagine a 7" one isn't what you're after.

Ben Brocka

@JohnGB Haven't heard of one. Though there's an Android camera now. But I'm not sure there's much market at all for mp3 players these days aside from a few iPods

Blackberry loses more marketshare despite new almost-smart phones

JohnGB

It's odd that I can get an Android tablet for less than I can get a smaller device

Ben Brocka

@JohnGB the phones have a lot of extra expensive crap the tablets lack (mostly the phone bits), and smaller is usually more expensive for same-specs stuff

You can probably find an old Galaxy S or something for <$100 these days though, stick a large SD card in there and you have an MP3 player

JonW

@BenBrocka Probably less of a markup on Google tablet too as they sell for closer to cost-price.

Ben Brocka

1:23 PM

I've had to tell my parents like 5 times that they can still use their old Android devices as MP3 players/whatever after they're "deactivated"

JohnGB

@JonW fair point

Ben Brocka

@JonW Yeah, Google's recent stuff is probably sold near cost like the Kindle Fire

Though the KF may well make a small loss and I'm not sure Google would do that

JonW

@BenBrocka Amazon presumably want to get as many people into their app store as they can. Google already has a decent sized user population so don't need to attract as many people by making a loss on their tablets.

JohnGB

Loss leaders :)

Oh the joys of economic war

Ben Brocka

Plus the Kindle is made for funneling people through their market (which is mostly paid stuff). Google's devices don't really require you to offer gobs of money after buying the device, though they're certainly trying to push that as well

JohnGB

1:29 PM

@BenBrocka good point.

Ben Brocka

The Kindle Fire is neat in some ways, but the OS itself is little more than an Amazon store and your amazon content

JohnGB

I love my Kindle reader, but I avoid using Amazon with it

Callibre rocks

JonW

Oh yeah my plain Kindle Keyboard is great, as to is the whispernet method of buying books for it. But I don't use it for anything else. The locked down Kindle store nature of the Kindle Fire is what put me off that tablet instead of the Nexus 7.

Ben Brocka

Yeah, I got one for my dad and tried it out for a couple weeks first. They get a lot more on Amazon than I do and he seems to be enjoying it a lot more than I would (even wanted the newer one for christmas again last year)

Benny Skogberg

@JonW Congratulations on becoming a 10k user!

JonW

1:42 PM

Yeah it's been a while coming but got there in the end!

JohnGB

Congrats :)

JonW

Lost about 200 in the last day though. Although to be fair it was unfairly gained rep!

JohnGB

But it was fun.

Nothing wrong with that every now and then

JonW

The SuperUser one a few years back was my favourite. The one about the monitor filling up with fish.

JohnGB

Never saw it.

Benny Skogberg

1:49 PM

Didn't we have the cats last year?

Ben Brocka

Neat, though I can't get it to appear on my PC

Benny Skogberg

@BenBrocka Adblock turned on?

But the image is nice. We need it here too

JonW

@BennySkogberg It's StackExchange wide. We do have it

Benny Skogberg

Aha! Where is it?

Ben Brocka

Doesn't show up in Incognito

It's probably not on SO or different on SO, they do require registration

JonW

1:56 PM

Under some circumstances (that we're not quite sure or) but you need to be signed out of the website.

Benny Skogberg

I have no account on physics, but didn't see it anyway...

JonW

Yeah, we're not sure of the visibility requirements. I certainly saw it on UX.SE earlier when using Chrome regular mode, not signed into the website.

Ben Brocka

It's probably in A/B testing

Benny Skogberg

Maybe. Looked very nice though :-)

Ben Brocka

they've been testing/brainstorming assorted new user UX stuff

Ben Brocka

2:39 PM

1

Q: How to get team to use UI Pattern/Component Library

I work at a company making UI widgets and components using HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. Management and the programmers have requested that I put together a Component/Pattern Library (hybrid - with code, examples, guides, etc.). Essentially, they want a final product similar to YUI or jQueryUI. The ...

I'm honestly unsure whether this should be here, on Programmers or on Workplace

UX is what suffers if they don't do this, but it sounds like the job to be done is team management

JonW

Check with Chris in the TL, see what he thinks.

Rachel Keslensky

@BenBrocka The Kindle as a low-powered e-reader is a great mechanism for dealing with books, and I have no issues with paying for reading material after the purchase since it's still cheaper / faster than ordering a physical book. The Kindle Fire as a tablet sucks compared to my Nexus 7.

JonW

@RachelKeslensky Screen and speakers are better on the KF. But that wasn't enough to get me to go for that over the N7.

Ben Brocka

yeah, the 2 speakers are actually pretty nice

but only in certain orientations

JonW

The speaker in my N7 is pretty crappy really. I need the volume up near max just to hear a YouTube clip.

Rachel Keslensky

2:52 PM

I get why Amazon felt they had to do it, but I also feel they'd be better served trying to sidestep the tablet market (similar to Nintendo's foray into 3D rather than compete with mobile gaming) vs. trying to join the wars as "Android but not really".

Dan Hulme

@RachelKeslensky Don't forget that Amazon is fundamentally a supply chain company rather than an inventing company.

JonW

No idea how well the Kindle Fire-HD is selling, but i'd be interested to find out.

Rachel Keslensky

Also fair to note that I'm comparing the e-reader (which has had a few generations to sort itself out) vs. a tablet, but even so.

According to this: businessinsider.com/amazon-kindle-fire-sales-estimates-2012-12 The Kindle Fire is doing a little worse than expected, but that's kinda okay because it means Amazon is losing less of its shirt in the process.

Honestly, the idea of "using your hardware as a loss leader" is a bit flawed. If you're not at least covering your costs, you're doing it wrong.

Ben Brocka

huh, I thought it was doing fairly well. They had a big ad calling it the best selling item on Amazon

Which shouldn't be that surprising since it's had ad space on their homepage off and on for like over a year

Rachel Keslensky

You can only buy it FROM Amazon.

JonW

2:58 PM

Sold more than the latest One Direction CD? I find that hard to believe.

Dan Hulme

@RachelKeslensky It served the printer industry well for quite some years.

JonW

@RachelKeslensky Not true, I've seen them in PC World.

Ben Brocka

@RachelKeslensky Not always, loss leader makes sense when each device on average makes up the loss in purchases

Rachel Keslensky

@DanHulme The Printer Industry doesn't sell printers, it sells ink cartridges that come with a fancy shell for the first hit.

Ben Brocka

game consoles are almost always loss leaders at launch because the console maker gets a chip of every new game sale, and you don't get those at all if the console doesn't sell

JonW

2:59 PM

@BenBrocka Or even when it's not expected to make any money for you, but you just want to be in that marketplace because that's where all the money will be in the future - see XBOX.

Rachel Keslensky

I was not aware Nintendo did that with their consoles, price slashing and "Ambassador" status aside.

Ben Brocka

Now a PC "console" as a loss leader doesn't make sense unless you're Valve, which is why the Piston "steam box" (which isn't actually blessed by valve) is crazy expensive

@RachelKeslensky I don't think Nnitendo does, they make super cheap hardware

Though they might have with the 3DS since they had to massively chop the price down

JonW

@BenBrocka The WiiU might be a loss leader, but the wii certainly wasn't - they were making money from each one of those sold from day 1.

Ben Brocka

Not sure the Wii U is either; it's price isn't particularly low. It's about in-line with what I'd expect for current gen specs + fancy screen controller and more memory

Dan Hulme

but then the games-sold-per-console-sold is lower for Nintendo than any other manufacturer

people buy one or two games and play them forever

Ben Brocka

3:05 PM

Including portable?

Rachel Keslensky

I think a certain amount of that has changed with the eShop releases -- which is basically printing money for Nintendo since they (usually) charge the same price for a digital copy.

Ben Brocka

I'd definitely expect that for the Wii, I'm sure there are thousands of units that never bought any games ever and only played Wii Sports for a while. The portables I'd be more surprised by that though

Dan Hulme

@BenBrocka AFAIK, but I learned that figure when 3ds was still new and before PS Vita came out, so it may no longer be true

Ben Brocka

And the Wii U is having the same no games problem of the PS3's launch

Should have launched with Pikmin 3 and that Wind Waker remake IMO, but oh well, I'm also glad they didn't rush Pikmin

@DanHulme I bet that's heavily tainted by the Wii. It was a great seller as a single product, but relatively few of those buyers were gamers in the...people who buy games sense

Rachel Keslensky

The Wii U is also the first console of the "new" generation. It's going to suffer a little comparatively until people see a need to compare it to another new console.

Ben Brocka

3:09 PM

It'll certainly look cheaper once the Xbox3 and PS4 price tags are out (though I don't suspect Sony will repeat the $500 price tag)

But Nintendo's problem has always been medicore 3rd party support for it's home consoles, and that's continued for now

JonW

@BenBrocka Don't forget the Oculus Rift / Steambox and the other new breed consoles that'll muddy the waters even more.

Ben Brocka

If anything indie games might be their salvation, at least for the digital market; the Wii U already has a digital store 100x better than Wii Ware

What a joke that was

@JonW I don't suspect any of those will matter much. Oyua maybe a little. Everything else, nah

That Piston box costs $1000 for $400 worth of specs (SSD included)

You're buying microATX specs in a slightly smaller than microATX case and that's your premium. Whoopdiedo

Rachel Keslensky

"Gunman Clive" was the best $2 I spent on the 3DS. the eShop really does provide some relief in the "we have an outlet for cheap games" sense.

JonW

@BenBrocka I dunno, i'm not going to pin my colours to any mast until we know what's coming out, when, the cost and the 3rd party support.

Ben Brocka

IS that a download title? I've been shying away from them on Nintendo consoles

JonW

3:12 PM

I reckon Steambox will have a decent chance really. If they can get the cost down.

Ben Brocka

If my WiiU or 3DS dies I'm SOL and I'd have to buy all the digital stuff again. With Sony stuff I can just redownload my stuff and keep playing

Rachel Keslensky

It's an eShop title. I picked it up and was satisfied.

... Yeah, I need to look into how to back up my 3DS. It's a rather glaring flaw for a device at this point.

Ben Brocka

@JonW They'd need to get the price WAAAAAY down. Who are they targeting? Console gamers balked at $500 for a relatively high-end box with the PS3. $1000 is insane. And PC gamers know better

@RachelKeslensky put everything on the SD card. Then cry because if you lose the 3DS your new 3DS can't read it. Bleh

Also, the first eShop title I'm likely to buy is Mew Mew Train: destructoid.com/…

Though I did get 3D Kirby's Adventure, mostly for an excuse to play Kirby's Adventure again

JonW

3:34 PM

@BenBrocka Current price quoted is just for the dev box, I believe. I don't think they've been able to quote any consumer prices yet. Although I've not been following all the news on it so it might have passed me by.

Ben Brocka

@JonW no, it's the consumer Piston box. Valve hasn't announced a box at all yet

arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/03/…

It looks like garbage

JonW

@BenBrocka Ah I see. They've said they'll be making their own one but haven't give out any details of it yet. At the moment it's just being able to let 3rd party hardware devs hook into Steam to do their own thing with - hence Piston.

theverge.com/2013/1/8/3852144/…

Ben Brocka

I'm still pretty doubtful for it's future

It's going to be a linux box and that just kills it for a lot of games

JonW

What about the Oculus Rift though. Tell me you're not at least interested in playing with one of those.

Ben Brocka

If you want stuff that's been ported to Mac/PC a console will probably do just fine. The appeal of PC is the oodles of available stuff. Sure, you can install windows on it, but at that point you've already lost the console-like appeal and you're into "just get a PC" territory

The rift does sound interesting but after the 3DS I'm pretty meh on 3D gaming

JonW

3:45 PM

3DS has the issue that you can never get properly immersed because it's a smallscreen and lots of other stuff is likely going on around you.

Ben Brocka

It's not the immersion

JonW

The fake depth-perception?

Ben Brocka

It's a headache and a pretty minor effect when it does happening, and often it's not happening aside from the HUD

JonW

I'm sure Rift will cause major headaches. But being able to look around you in, for instance a Flight sim or racing game just seems great fun to play around with.

Dan Hulme

@JonW should be a great improvement over TrackIR

Am I the only person who doesn't get headaches from 3D?

I love 3D on the 3DS, and on my PC

Ben Brocka

3:49 PM

Not so much a headache is it just feels weird and the graphics seem to drop in quality

Is the 3DS in lower resolution in 3D mode? Everything looks blockier

Dan Hulme

the anti-aliasing is not implemented for 3D

or it is, but not well

I hugely enjoyed Crysis 2 in 3D

Ben Brocka

Ahhh that'd be why

Dan Hulme

also Portal 2

Ben Brocka

I have a 3D TV but I never bothered getting the glasses

$80 dorky glasses for very few games is a hard sell, especially when they're super tied to your TV model

Seeing the 3DS's 3D made me decide there's no way it's worth it

Dan Hulme

my laptop came with a pair :-)

you don't get the resolution problems like you do on the 3DS

JonW

3:54 PM

The headaches come from not being able to focus properly. It's not 3D unless you can choose to focus on the near or the far objects. With current 3D you just get shown stuff already focused for you, so when you try to change focus with your own eyes nothing changes, you just end up confusing / hurting your brain.

Now if they could track your eye focus and adjust the picture being display accordingly, that would be impressive.

Or just, you know, invent proper 3D holograms and shit. That'll be awesome.

Someone wants to roll back my edit:

ux.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/7875

As it was me who edited in the first place I don't want to reject it myself, but I don't think the line I removed is necessary, in fact it makes the question even worse.

Ben Brocka

Man that post sucks

Also stop denaturing things @JonW

JonW

Denaturation is a process in which proteins or nucleic acids lose the tertiary structure

Posts like that mean that no answer will be accepted unless it supports OP viewpoint, even if their viewpoint is proven to be inaccurate.

Rachel Keslensky

Nintendo is learning how to 3D properly. The earliest games suffer as a result of this learning curve, but Fire Emblem is GORGEOUS.

JohnGB

ux.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/7876

WTF is that edit?

JonW

Again?

Ben Brocka

4:00 PM

@JonW I know. Just leave the protiens alone, Jon. They never did anything to you

JonW

@JohnGB It's already been rejected. Looks like they're trying to do it again. I removed that stupid angry line and someone keeps trying to put it back in again.

JohnGB

I rejected it as well

Ben Brocka

I just rejected that!

JohnGB

Maybe we rejected at the same time

Ben Brocka

No I mean he made the same edit literally two minutes before that one

JonW

4:05 PM

Edit was tried twice. Now a comment was left against the question about it. He really wants that line included in the question but it's totally unsuitable for such a site.

Ben Brocka

Ah, yes, the edit shows the original post is merely a rant. Voting to close. — DA01 5 mins ago

yay

Dan Hulme

4:21 PM

Reject reason: "Save it for your blog"

Charles Wesley

4:55 PM

@JohnGB that is hilarious. inappropriate. but hilarious.

JohnGB

Which of my many comments are you referring to @CharlesWesley?

:P

Charles Wesley

@JohnGB the whole body of work really

JohnGB

Always good to know that. I aim for inappropriate as much as possible

Charles Wesley

;)

Ben Brocka

6:01 PM

10

Q: What is the best way to request individual characters from a password?

Frequently, sites that should really value security (especially banks) ask for several individual characters from a password. Typically I've seen them do it like this: download bmml source – Wireframes created with Balsamiq Mockups Is there a better way?

password authentication textbox banking

Er...what possible reason would one have to request this?

JohnGB

6:52 PM

@BenBrocka Some silly banks do this

Ben Brocka

7:04 PM

Disturbingly hearing "banks" allows me to accept how someone could be this stupid about security

but seriously, what's the alleged benefit security/usability wise for inputting bits of a password over the whole password?

I could input my whole password much faster than I could figure out what the 6th character of it is

JohnGB

It's supposed to be some other level of security for when you do something after logged in

Damn silly if you ask me

Lots of UX headache with no real security benefit

But that they even KNOW what the 6th character is

The only way they can know this is if they don't store the passwords securely

Should just be a salted hash that is stored. Nothing else.

Ben Brocka

It's theoretically possible that they also store a salted hash of a few random characters for verification, like how Facebook stores a capslock version of your password too

though it's far less useful

But knowing how many organizations, it probably is in plaintext. Encrypted if you're lucky

Dan Hulme

8:07 PM

@BenBrocka it originally came from telephone banking. The advantage is that the phone operator can check your password that way without ending up knowing the password.

Ben Brocka

@DanHulme oh, makes zero sense online though

Dan Hulme

@BenBrocka Well, it provides weak protection against MITM attacks, the same way.

Charles Wesley

8:23 PM

HSBC's implementation makes more sense where you have a password and a "security key" which is essentially a second password.

so you have to have the password AND the security key, and they only ask you to enter some of the chars

Dan Hulme

@CharlesWesley HSBC in the UK now issues SecurID-like auth tokens

for business and home users

Charles Wesley

i'm referring to online banking and my experience is only for US customers so they might have different approaches for the two markets

it used to be a Flash based input for the security key

where you would "type" the key in using your mouse on a flash keyboard

I'm guessing to protect against key loggers or something

now they just ask for 3 random chars

Dan Hulme

yeah, that stopped working when the keyloggers started taking screenshots on mouse clicks

Charles Wesley

that's interesting

JohnGB

8:45 PM

@CharlesWesley If two passwords are better than one, why stop there? Why not have three? (comments aimed at banks)

There are better ways to prevent MITM attacks

Charles Wesley

i'm not arguing that it's better i'm just explaining their implementation

JohnGB

In NL you usually have to have a small device that you put your card into to get additional security

Charles Wesley

which is better than selectively asking for password chars

sure two-factor authentication is really better

JohnGB

@CharlesWesley I realise you aren't saying that, I'm just adding to the convo.

Charles Wesley

i use two-factor auth for several services, it's fairly easy... so long as you don't lose your phone with the app or the dongle :)

JohnGB

8:47 PM

The pain with banks here is that I have to take an additional gadget with me when travelling

It's a standard device here. I have 6 of them lying around.

Charles Wesley

the services I use have native apps for iOS and Android

so you only need your phone

JohnGB

There are additional security measures in the chip on the bank cards here. So it's card + device needed.

But I think that could also be improved a lot UX wise

Charles Wesley

gotcha

Google's seems to be fairly friendly

google.com/landing/2step/features.html

lots of pathways to the end goal

JohnGB

Bugs me that if there is a problem with my phone that someone can gain access

And usually also use it to reset my password

Phone = email + sms auth

I trust nobody to guess my long nasty passwords more than I trust that to not happen

Ben Brocka

@JohnGB iPhone? They fixed that

Charles Wesley

8:55 PM

@JohnGB this is true. convenience is usually a tradeoff with security

Ben Brocka

Or do you mean theoretically

Charles Wesley

@BenBrocka again ;)

JohnGB

Ben broke something...

Charles Wesley

it seems once a year someone figures out a new way to get sorta past the lockscreen

JohnGB

In practice it's easier to steal someone's phone than hack their computer

If someone grabs your phone while you are using it?

It's not locked

Coming from SA where these things are regular occurrences, I don't trust that not happening

Charles Wesley

8:58 PM

one should only use their phone unlocked when sitting in a car equipped with a flame thrower

Blaster (flamethrower)

The Blaster (also called the "BMW Flamethrower") was a 1998 invention by South African inventor Charl Fourie designed to provide a defence against carjackings. The invention came in response to the increasingly severe violent crime situation in South Africa, which in 1998 had already made the country (particularly Johannesburg) the per capita murder, assault, rape and carjacking capital of the world. The Blaster was a liquefied petroleum gas flamethrower installed along the sides of the vehicle under the doors. Should a group of carjackers suddenly attack the vehicle while it is stopped...

Ben Brocka

9:15 PM

JohnGB

Yup. It was allowed in some areas as it wasn't fatal.

Ben Brocka

9:31 PM

Gmail Blue is now real

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