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12:33 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan if you think 7 dwipas are 7 continents then where are the oceans of alcohol, sugarcane juice, butter etc...
@KeshavSrinivasan further they should be concentric one double of another... if we go by simple or least measurement ie 1yojan=8/13km then also diameter of Shewata dwipa reach farther than Uranus/ Neptune... How do you view this...
@KeshavSrinivasan I also think same like Trikaldarshi Jnani might come and write/give those texts... I also think same about Valmiki Ramayan... I don't think Valmiki Ramayana survived from 24th to 28th chaturyuga... Or Maybe Hanuman had preserved it...
@KeshavSrinivasan Personally for the question of dwipa I think dwipas are also in higher dimension...making total dimension=14 loka× 7dwipa= 98 dimension... In Buddhism also told there are 31 dimension...I think in the dwipas time relativity doesn't occur because they are in the same level of Mt. Meru...and hence parallel world of Lord Vishnu exists in Shewtadwipa... If Gods go to meet Vishnu directly in Vaikuntha then massive time relativity will occur...
I remember a story in Lord Shiva Killing Surya... There Lord Shiva goes to main Vaikuntha and Lord Vishnu told thousands chaturyugas have passed... I don't know whether this story is scriptual or not...Do you know it? Furthermore 7 dwipa can't be 7 continents but can be places of earth in higher dimension... Because in Adhyatma Ramayana Ravana was trying to go to Shewatadwipa by Pushpaka but it couldn't fly there... so he went by foot...
Also what do you think where is Mount Meru?
I think they should be on higher dimension because in Buddhism there is a loka where people live for thousands of years... It is just 80 yojana above earth... clearly this is in another dimension because had it be in same dimension 80 yojana above could be simply viewed from earth.. hence I think concept of higher dimension should be used... Also people could simply walk go and meet Lord Shiva, Ganesh, Parvati by going to Mt. Kailash if they weren't in higher dimension...
Bhrigu rishi went to main Vaikuntha or Shewata dwipa to test Lord Vishnu... If he went for main Vaikuntha other Rishis who were waiting for his return would have to wait for thousands of years due to relativity...
What is a serpent couch...is it hoods of snake forming lotus like shape and Lord Vishnu inside there?
Are swarga loka, tapa loka etc. Also surrounded by dwipas...I think only Bhumandal contains largest dwipas to make shape of universe look like egg..ie. largest diameter in middle... Brahmanda= Brahma+ anda (egg)... also some say that Sesh naag is just supporting earth ... But Bhagwatam clearly mentions whole universe just look like tiny mustard seed in hood of Sesh naag... what is your view in this?
1:13 AM
@Tezz "if you think 7 dwipas are 7 continents then where are the oceans of alcohol, sugarcane juice, butter etc..." Well, one explanation I've heard for this is that rishis were describing what they saw revealed to them, and they were using terms like ghee and sugarcane juice and the like to describe what the color of different bodies of water looked like to them. Those colors could have been due to things like minerals.
@Tezz "further they should be concentric one double of another... if we go by simple or least measurement ie 1yojan=8/13km then also diameter of Shewata dwipa reach farther than Uranus/ Neptune... How do you view this..." Well, I think the concentric thing may be a misinterpretation of what the Puranas say. The Puranas say that the Dvipas surround Jambudvipa, but I don't think they mean fully encircle.
@Tezz I think they're referring to the fact that if you stand in on any part of the Earth, all the other lands and bodies of waters surround you in one direction or another. In any case, regarding Yojanas it's actually not clear what the size of a Yojana is. The only scriptural reference I know of to the length of a Yojana is in a single verse of the Matsya Purana, and that verse may be an interpolation.
@Tezz "I also think same like Trikaldarshi Jnani might come and write/give those texts... I also think same about Valmiki Ramayan... I don't think Valmiki Ramayana survived from 24th to 28th chaturyuga... Or Maybe Hanuman had preserved it..." No, as far as I know Hanuman never learnt the Valmiki Ramayana. But yeah, I think rishis teaching new disciples in different ages is how all sorts of scriptures including the Vedas were passed down.
@Tezz "Personally for the question of dwipa I think dwipas are also in higher dimension...making total dimension=14 loka× 7dwipa= 98 dimension" Well, I think the Dvipas are all on Earth but I do think that other Lokas are in other dimensions. Like I think when the Puranas say that the distance between Bhuloka and Svargaloka is this many Yojanas, I don't think you can go between Lokas in a spaceship, I think in addition to spatial separation there is dimensional separation.
@Tezz "In Buddhism also told there are 31 dimension" Well, this may be a fundamental difference between us but I don't put any stock in what Buddhism says; I suggest you read the detailed refutation of Buddhism given in the Brahma Sutras.
@Tezz "I remember a story in Lord Shiva Killing Surya... There Lord Shiva goes to main Vaikuntha and Lord Vishnu told thousands chaturyugas have passed... I don't know whether this story is scriptual or not...Do you know it?" No, the only scripture I know of that mentions Shiva killing Surya is the Brahma Vaivarta Purana, and I don't think it mentions anything about time in Vaikuntha. I discuss the story in my answer here:
A: Why was Surya killed by Lord Shiva?

Keshav SrinivasanThe story of Shiva (temporarily) killing Surya the sun god is told in the Ganesha Khanda of the Brahma Vaivarta Purana. (See page 349 here.) As I discuss in this answer, one of the most prominent incarnations of Vishnu in ancient times was the sage Narayana, son of Yama god of death and twin br...

2:03 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan This website here says that karma bhumi is only Bharat Varshas... other Varshas like Ramyaka are celestial and for enjoyment... It claims Vishnu Puran tells so... If it is whole earth have to be Bharat Varsha............theosociety.org/pasadena/path/v04n01p13_the-seven-dwipas.htm
@KeshavSrinivasan I don't think refutation of Buddhism is sufficient only through Brahma Sutras...Do you think Shankaracharya would win if he debated to Lord Buddha?... I don't think he would win... Lord Buddha would have won using pratakshya pramanam...
@KeshavSrinivasan I also support that lokas can't be reached through ordinary spaceship... higher magical spaceship will be needed...
2:18 AM
@Tezz Yes, it's true that the Vishnu Purana and many other Puranas speak very strangely about places outside of Bharatavarsha, like they say that people of other Varshas do not accrue Karma, that they live for thousands of years, that they have no pain etc. But I don't think the right conclusion to draw from that is that Bharatavarsha is the entire Earth, because those same Puranic descriptions include detailed descriptions of the geography of Bharatavarsha, and it exactly matches India.
@Tezz Well, the Vedanta school not only uses Pratyaksha Pramana, it also uses Anumana Pramana and Sabda Pramana. Now it's an interesting question who would win a debate between Buddha and Adi Shankaracharya, considering that Buddha is an incarnation of Vishnu and Adi Shankaracharya is an incarnation of Shiva. I can imagine Buddha winning such a debate, just because Vishnu is so clever that he could invent all sorts of fallacious and invalid arguments that others wouldnt be able to easily refute.
@Tezz But in terms of an honest debate of ideas, Vedanta would easily win against Buddhism. I suggest that you read the discussion of Buddhism in Adi Shankaracharya's Brahma Sutra Bhashya or Ramanujacharya's Sri Bhashya or anyone else's commentary on the Brahma Sutras.
@Tezz "I also support that lokas can't be reached through ordinary spaceship... higher magical spaceship will be needed" Yeah, magic is exactly what is required. That is why Vimanas were able to travel between Lokas.
2:38 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan In my view Buddhism is an advaita upto vijanyamaya kosha or advaita without eternal Brahman... They also have Brahma sitting in lotuses...Maheswhor slightly diff. from Lord Shiva... Sakra as Indra... etc. etc..
@Tezz Yes, I agree that Buddhism has close relations with Advaita; many scholars believe that Adi Shankaracharya's guru's guru Gaudapada was originally a Buddhist. And I also agree that Buddhist mythology is largely based on Hindu mythology, although various differences have arisen as Buddhism has evolved. But I still think that Buddhism is unequivocally incorrect, for reasons described in the Brahma Sutras.
@KeshavSrinivasan I'm little bit skeptical that our scriptures foretold about Buddha... people later have added it to preserve Hinduism... If it was written then who would follow Buddha..? They would already have known him as deceptor... Nobody would follow him... so I think it was added latter...
@Tezz Well, not everyone was educated in the Puranas, especially the common people.
Can you tell me a main point of Brahma Sutra refuting Brahma Sutra? You have also posted a question in Buddhism SE about it... but nobody replied it .... I read arguments there but couldn't understand what it meant..
@KeshavSrinivasan How can we defend Buddhist telling Bhagvad Gita was created latter to give answer to Buddhism... People in Buddhism SE are spreading that rumour... also Wikipedia is supporting them... How can we defend them logically?
@KeshavSrinivasan oh sorry... in 1st question * refuting Buddhism...
@Tezz Well, Adi Shankaracharya's commentary presents separate arguments against three types of Buddhists, the Sautrantikas, the Yogacharas, and the Madhyamikaas: sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe34/sbe34194.htm
2:50 AM
But scholars would have stopped conversion by citing Purans to common people... Also why would Scholars of Veda Purans follow Buddhism if they have already known it as deception... There are many examples where Pundits and Brahmins were converted to Buddhism...
@Tezz Well, I imagine that if Brahmanas tried telling the people "Buddha is prophesied in Hindu scripture as trying to deceive you", and Buddha told them, "the Brahmanas have just made up chapters in their Puranas to try to discredit me", the people might go with Buddha. As far as why learned Brahmanas would choose to follow him, the charm of Sriman Narayana is irresistible. He could have even used magical powers to make them forget their knowledge of Puranas.
Haha... it may be the case..
@KeshavSrinivasan What happens to people following Buddhism as per Vedanta? How is their Karmic effect...
@Tezz Well, as far as Karma goes, Buddhists reject the Vedas, so they'll fail to perform their required Vedic Dharmas and thus incur bad Karma. As far as what Vedanta says about the ultimate fate of Buddhists, Moksha requires having Brahmajnana, so as long as you don't accept the notion of Brahman you can't attain Moksha.
@KeshavSrinivasan Buddhist completely do not reject vedas... They only reject present avaliable version of Vedas... They call they are altered in his time... Even Buddha told this..
@Tezz Well, either way, the practical effect is that they fail to follow their required Vedic Dharmas.
3:04 AM
Can't they stay in state of Nirvana as they tell ?
@Tezz Well, according to the Vedanta school as long as you don't accept the existence of Brahman you can't have true Jnana.
@Tezz Concerning the Bhagavad Gita, the ideas of the Bhagavad Gita are even older than the Mahabharata. The Bhagavad Gita is originally part of the ancient Pancharatra tradition, which was followed by the early kings of the solar dynasty, but then it was lost until it was revived in the Dwapara Yuga.
Oh thanks for the above information... we were discussing Manu Smriti now we have reached upto Buddhism..
@KeshavSrinivasan Why Wikipedia dates it later?...
Also how by which technique Vedas Purans are dated by Wikipedia...
@Tezz Wikipedia is relying on Western Indologists, who date all our scriptures to very recent times. They draw their conclusions based on things like mentions of iron and other metals in various texts. They assume that certain metals and other technologies were only invented after certain dates, so they use those to estimate the age of scriptures.
@KeshavSrinivasan Oh... Thanks for the information...
@Tezz By the way, see my answer here for more information on the Pancharatra tradition and its role in the history of Vaishnavism:
A: Vishnu - how has his understanding developed and what was his role initially?

Keshav SrinivasanFirst of all, to answer your side question, yes, there is something that is more particular to Vishnu that both Vaishnavite and Shaivites would acknowledge about him, and that is that he is the god of preservation. That is to say, Vaishnavites would say that Vishnu is the preserver but he is als...

3:27 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan Thanks! I read your answers .... it was interesting...
@Tezz "Furthermore 7 dwipa can't be 7 continents but can be places of earth in higher dimension... Because in Adhyatma Ramayana Ravana was trying to go to Shewatadwipa by Pushpaka but it couldn't fly there... so he went by foot..." Well, at least the Valmiki Ramayana doesn't say that Shwetadvipa was not spatially there or anything like that, it just says the heat emanating from Shwetadvipa was pushing the Pushpaaka Vimanam from there: ancientvoice.wikidot.com/src-vrm:ram7-46
@KeshavSrinivasan Vyas of 24th Dwapar was Valmiki... Is he same Valmiki who wrote Ramayana?
@Tezz Yes, he is.
@Tezz Just like our Vyasa composed the Mahabharata and Puranas on the side, the Vyasa of that time period composed the Ramayana on the side.
@KeshavSrinivasan Oh I'm surprised that Valmiki Ramayana also tells Ravana knowingly kidnapped Sita to die in Rams hand... I had thought only Adhyatma Ramayana mentions it..
When did Valmiki died?
@Tezz Valmiki is a Chiranjeevi. In fact he talks to Yudhishthira as I discuss in this question:
Q: When was sage Valmiki accused of killing a Brahmin?

Keshav SrinivasanIn this chapter of the Anushasana Parva of the Mahabharata, different sages tell Yudhishthira about the benefits they received by praying to Shiva. In particular, the sage Valmiki, author of the Ramayana, says this: Once upon a time, in course of a dialectical disputation, certain ascetics th...

3:35 AM
What about Vibhishan? Sahadev meets him in Mahabharat... Where is he now?
@Tezz Well, the Puranas say that "to this day" he's in Lanka, but again that's 5000 years ago. The Ranganatha statue in Sri Rangam is oriented to the South to give perpetual Darshan to Vibhishana. But I'm not sure where he is now. He may have gone somewhere deep in the Himalayas like rishis do in the Kali Yuga.
@KeshavSrinivasan Do you know about Hamsananda incarnation of Lord Vishnu... Je just incarnated about 100 yrs. before... performed an Akhanda Yagya and told it will run upto Satyayuga... Brihaspati will come to finisb that yagya..
@Tezz I haven't heard of Hamsananda, but I'm generally skeptical of claims that this or that modern figure is an incarnation of Vishnu, unless there's convincing evidence like prophesies of his birth in scripture or confirmations by recognized Acharyas.
@KeshavSrinivasan He was born in Swargadwari Nepal... He is like Venkateshwara of that area... But I believe him as an incarnation of Vishnu... He also possessed Srivatsa sign in his chest... When Lekhnath Paudel , Kavisiromani of Nepal went there and told him that he wants to write biography of him.. Then he rejected him telling that his biography is being written by Ashwatthama... Hence I fully believe him as incarnation of Vishnu...
@KeshavSrinivasan Debate between Buddha and Adishankara is different from debate between Buddha (who knows himself as Vishnu) and Adishankara (who knows his divinity of Shiva). Indeed, in second case there would be no debate. Point here is, whether they knew their divinities. If we go by subject, obviously Adishankara would win and if we go by charm or magic, it's hypothetical and meaningless question.
@Tezz Buddhists will be killed by Kalki and he grants Moksha to them, as it was his responsibility because as buddha He deluded them.
3:51 AM
@TheDestroyer Well, they could choose to debate each other as part of their Lilas, and Buddha could win the argument using clever falsehoods. But yes, in a fair argument of ideas, the ideas of Vedanta can easily defeat the ideas of Buddhism.
@TheDestroyer I think Maitreya Buddha will come before Kalki..
@Tezz I don't think Maitreya Buddha will even exist.
@Tezz You're saying you believe he's an incarnation because he told someone not to write a biography of him and claimed that Ashwatthama was writing a biography of him? That's not very strong evidence. Are there any mentions of him in Hindu scripture?
@KeshavSrinivasan But I believe they exist... I also believe Kassapa Kakusandha and Konagamana Buddha existed before Gautam Buddha...
@Tezz A woman will lead their (may be a war between China and India) army where kalki will be reluctant to fight initially but later at supplication, Kali will wage war on that women army. Mahavatar Babaji did say the same. Babaji will teach Kalki during transition times of Kali and Satya Yuga. He said a war is going to happen in near future greater than Mahabharata or 2 world wars.
@Tezz Babaji also said women participate in this war and many countries will be wiped off from globe.
It is also believed that Veerabrahmendra Swami will come before kalki. archive.org/details/VeerabrahmendraThePrecursorOfKalki1
@Tezz I think Buddha is an incarnation of Vishnu, and I put absolutely no stock in the Jataka tales or other works dealing with Buddhist mythology.
3:58 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan well rejecting writing biography isn't my base... I believe because I am from his area and I know about his stories and leela... There is not so much information about him in internet... In India people of Bihar area only know him.... I just asked you because whether he is known or not bn your area...
@TheDestroyer I don't believe in Babaji, but don't Babaji's followers like Yukteswar not even believe that it's the Kali Yuga right now?
@TheDestroyer it is also mentioned in Kalki Purana...
Yeah they don't believe this. But some followers say Babaji will leave his body only after teaching kalki
@Tezz What is mentioned in kalki Purana?
@Tezz OK, I misinterpreted your "Hence I fully believe" statement.
@KeshavSrinivasan Is it mentioned in scripture that kalki will come in 28th kali? He may also come in 29th Kali..
@TheDestroyer war with Buddhist and women with Lord Kalki...
4:03 AM
@Tezz As far as he's known in "my area", no he isn't. I'm born and raised in America, although my family is from Tamil Nadu. Are you from Nepal?
@KeshavSrinivasan Yes, I'm from Nepal...
@Tezz The Matsya Purana and Skanda Purana list various incarnations Vishnu will take in the Vaivasvata Manvantara, and they only list Kalki as taking place in the 28th Mahayuga, not the 29th.
@KeshavSrinivasan oh.. then I become sure that he will come after this Kaliyuga..
When will 10000 golden years in Kaliyuga mentioned by Krishna come..?
@Tezz But then again, we have pretty much no information about any incarnations of events that will happen in the future Mahayugas of the Vaivasvata Manvantara, as I discuss in my question here:
Q: What do we know about the future Mahayugas?

Keshav SrinivasanBackground: The four Yugas (Satya, Treta, Dwapara, and Kali) together make up one Mahayuga. 1000 Mahayugas make up one Kalpa, which is one day in the life of Brahma. After the Kalpa is over Brahma goes to sleep, and there's a Pralaya which destroys the three worlds, at the end of which Brahma ...

I knew those two events...
4:10 AM
@Tezz By the way, I discuss the Matsya Purana chapter I was telling you about, listing incarnations of Vishnu in the Vaisvasvata Manvantara, in my question here:
Q: Why does each incarnation of Vishnu need an "officiating priest"?

Keshav SrinivasanThis chapter of the Matsya Purana enumerates various incarnations that Vishnu has taken during the course of the Vaivasvata Manvantara (i.e. the present Manvantara). But along with each incarnation, it also lists an "officiating priest". Here are the priests listed for the different incarnation...

@KeshavSrinivasan how did you learn so much about Hinduism by living in America? People here generally listen these stories via grand parents. But kids of these days even don't avail such facility.
@KeshavSrinivasan America falls in which Varsha as per your view...?
@TheDestroyer Well, from a very young age I was watching lots of TV serials like Ramayan, Mahabharat, etc. Then I started reading Amar Chitra Katha comic books, and then I started reading Hindu scriptures at a relatively early age. And yes, encouragement from my grandparents and other relatives certainly helped.
@Tezz I mentioned it above:
9 hours ago, by Keshav Srinivasan
@Tezz That's why in Hindu temples in America, we say "Krauncha Dvipe Aindra Kande Merokr Paschime Parsve" in the Sankalpam, as opposed to India where people say "Jambudvipe Bharatavarshe Bharata Kande Merokr Dakshine Parsve."
@KeshavSrinivasan But there's no sanskrit name for America in that Mantra. What is "Merokr"?
@KeshavSrinivasan In Ramananda Sagar Krishna episode... Krishna meets a blind person and tells he will incarnate in Kaliyuga as blind singer and raise bhakti movements... Has he incarnated ?
4:19 AM
@TheDestroyer America is considered to be in Krauncha Dvipa, and within Krauncha Dvipa, it's considered to be located in Aindra Kanda.
Merokor paschime might mean west of Meru... is it?
@KeshavSrinivasan According PN Oak, America is derived from Sanskrit word "AMARA" immortal. But sometimes he looks like he brags about Hindu faith.
@Tezz Yes, so Jambu Dvipa is south of mount Meru, whereas Krauncha Dvipa is to the west of mount Meru. Perhaps Meru is somewhere in Central Asia.
@KeshavSrinivasan But American continents has many countries (Varsha). USA, canada, Mexico... what's the Sanskrit name for US
@TheDestroyer Haha, the Sankalpam is not based on the modern geopolitical boundaries between countries. It's based on whatever ancient kingdoms were there thousands of years ago.
@TheDestroyer And yeah, making a connection between America and Amara is completely ridiculous. America is named after an Italian explorer named Amerigo Vespucci.
4:25 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan So, priests of Pakistan and Bangladesh use the above mantra for India. right?
@KeshavSrinivasan But these coincidental circumstances might have some cause..
@TheDestroyer Yeah, because it was all part of Bharatavarsha back then.
@Tezz what coincidence? America and Amara?
Yes America Amara Amerigo...
@Tezz "In Ramananda Sagar Krishna episode... Krishna meets a blind person and tells he will incarnate in Kaliyuga as blind singer and raise bhakti movements... Has he incarnated ?" I don't think Krishna ever says that in Hindu scripture. I think Ramanand Sagar just inserted that line in order to make the statement that Soordas or someone is an incarnation of Vishnu.
4:30 AM
@Tezz He was italian and he was in born italy. So, no connection. PN Oak was staunch devotee of Shiva. So, he wanted to uplift Hindu Dharma. While some of his points are logical, some are meaningless.
@TheDestroyer Yeah, P.N. Oak was crazy, he thought the Taj Mahal was a Shiva temple.
@TheDestroyer I think @Tezz is suggesting that it was fated that someone with the name Amerigo would be the one to discover this particular place.
@KeshavSrinivasan Taj Mahal being Ancient Shiva Temple is still debatable. Home minister Rajnath Singh clarified there is no connection. But still govt is reluctant to conduct research on closed doors. All this is because of hindu muslims problems.
@TheDestroyer The Taj Mahal is very recent, and history from the 17th century is very well-documented. So there's really no serious debate among historians on this point.
@KeshavSrinivasan I believe it as Shiva Temple. Why would Shah Jahan build it for her 3rd wife. But Vastu is main responsible for its fame. Few monuments in India have perfect Vastu and they are very famous. Kasi Vishwanath temple, Tirumala venkateswara temple, Taj Mahal are such examples.
@TheDestroyer I think he just loved Mumtaaz a lot. so he wanted to build a grand mausoleum for her.
4:37 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan yes you are right... I suppossed it was fated... like Kaaktaaliya Samyog...
@Tezz What is Kaaktaliya Samyog?
@KeshavSrinivasan According to Vastu Sastra, India is east tilting and this is the reason India is famous for spirituality. Northside Himalayas make India less wealthy nation. Even parliament Bhavan in Delhi is not according to vastu
*and northeast himalayas
@KeshavSrinivasan PN Oak do have some logical points in this matter.
@TheDestroyer Perhaps the architects he hired were Hindus who built according to Vastu Shastra. In any case, I find revisionist history on such recent history ridiculous. There's so much documentation on the construction of the Taj Mahal.
@KeshavSrinivasan A crow sits on a bell tree. At that time a fruit of bell falls. In fact that bell falls naturally but crow thinks that bell fruit falled due to his sitting in branch... Other looking person also tell bell fall due to that crow... In fact there is no relationship between these two events... But even relationship occur due to coincidental circumstances... It is called Kaaktaliya Samyog... It has application in Advaita...
@TheDestroyer PN oak also tells no. 108 inside it... mango leaf keeping... etc. Is it true?
@Tezz By the way, there is one incarnation of Vishnu who is prophesied in the Skanda Purana as coming between the time of Buddha and the time of Kalki. I discuss him in my question here:
Q: Who is the Samaveda-singing Brahmin incarnation of Vishnu prophesied in the Skanda Purana?

Keshav SrinivasanAs I discuss in this question, one of the early movements that was important in the development of Vaishnavism was the ancient Pancharatra movement, whose sacred texts consisted of detailed procedures to worship the sage Narayana, an ancient incarnation of Vishnu who was the son of Yama god of de...

@Tezz But it's not clear to me if this incarnation has already taken place or whether he'll be born in the future. Followers of Swaminarayan believe that it's a prophecy of Swaminarayan, but I'm unsure of their claims.
4:46 AM
I think it hasn't take place...
@KeshavSrinivasan I don't think they deliberately build it on basis of vastu shastra. It could be a sheer coincidence. Well I couldn't find any original ASI report on hidden rooms where it allegedly contains statues of Hindu Gods and paintings.
@Tezz Swaminarayan people have developed an elaborate story based on this Skanda Purana quote, according to which Vishnu's incarnations Nara and Narayana are cursed by some Rishis to be born as a human being named Swaminarayan, Krishna's relative Uddhava is reborn as Swaminarayan's guru Ramanand Swami, etc. But like I said, I'm skeptical.
@Tezz Yeah, he says finial of the Taj Mahal is a trishula with a Kalasha holding two bent mango leaves and a coconut. hindunet.org/hindu_history/modern/taj_oak.html
5:08 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan Swaminaryan might be incarnation but we can't confirm until we know ourselves... But devotees of Swaminarayan might know the fact
@KeshavSrinivasan There is story whom Ashwatthama cursed to not be able to gain weapons in this birth... when he was in womb... who is he? Is he Swaminarayan?
@TheDestroyer I also believe TajMahal was Shiva temple previously..
@Tezz By the way, did you know that the Swaminarayan sect considers itself part of the Sri Sampradayam, the same Vaishnava Sampradayam that the Sri Vaishnava sect (which I belong to) is a part of? Vishnu taught the principles of Vaishnavism to four disciples, Lakshmi, Brahma, Shiva, and Sanatkumara. Sri Sampradayam is the Vaishnava Sampradayam started by Lakshmi.
@KeshavSrinivasan What are the names started by Brahma Shiva and Sanatkumara?..
@Tezz But the reason that the Swaminarayan sect considers itself part of the Sri Sampradayam is that Swaminarayan's guru Ramanand Swami claims that he once had a dream where the Sri Vaishnava Acharya Ramanujacharya initiated him. I find that claim odd to say the least.
In fact I have very little knowledge about sects inside Vaishnava..
@Tezz The Brahma Sampradayam is what Gaudiya Vaishnavas and followers Madhvacharya consider themselves to be. That's because Madhvacharya claims that he went to the Himalayas and was initiated by Vyasa, who belonged to a disciplic succession originating with Brahma.
@Tezz Shiva started the Rudra Sampradayam, which is what followers of Vallabhacharya belong to. And Sanatkumara started the Kumara Sampradayam, which is what followers if Nimbarka belong to.
5:19 AM
I first time knew that inside Vaishnava sampradaya also there is Rudra Sampradaya..
@Tezz Haha yeah, Vaishnavas consider Shiva to be the greatest Vaishnava.
@KeshavSrinivasan I think most Vaishnava consider Shiva to be greatest Vaishnava in the name only... Most Vaishnava are busy in criticizing Lord Shiva every where... I think they know more about criticism of Shiva than devotion of Lord Vishnu...
@Tezz Well, there are certainly Vaishnavas who criticize Shaivites, but most Vaishnavas I know have great respect for Shiva himself.
@Tezz I'm a devout Sri Vaishnava, but I still worship Shiva and other gods, since I believe that Sriman Narayana is the Antaryami or inner self of all the gods.
@KeshavSrinivasan your surname Srinivasan has some connection with Sri Vaishnava or not?..
@Tezz Srinivasa is a name of Venkateshwara.
@Tezz "Nivas" means to have, so Srinivasa means the one who has Sri or Lakshmi.
5:30 AM
means it is not your surname?..
@Tezz It is my surname.
@KeshavSrinivasan people tell height of people will decrease very much.. some say it will be as size of thumb etc. etc. Is it mentioned in scripture?...
@Tezz Yeah, I think the Puranas do say that in the end of the Kali Yuga height and age will both reduce, but I don't think it goes all the way down to the size of a thumb.
@KeshavSrinivasan Janaka belonged to which clan? Surya clan?
@KeshavSrinivasan How Ikshvaku dyansty survived wrath of Parashuram ?
5:44 AM
@TheDestroyer Yeah, Janaka belonged to the solar dynasty.
Then how could Rama and Sita marry if they belonged to same dynasty?
@Tezz Well, there were a small number of kings who survived Parashurama's annihilation; see my answer here:
A: What did Kashyapa do with the Earth after he received it from Parashurama?

Keshav SrinivasanApparently the Mahabharata tells the story of Parashurama twice - once in the Vana Parva as I linked to in my question, but also once in the this chapter of the Shanti Parva. And it's the second version that has the answer to my question. It looks like after Kashyapa got control of the earth, B...

@TheDestroyer Yeah, that's a good question, I've wondered that myself. Perhaps there are sub-gotras within Suryavamsa.
How they managed to survive ?
@TheDestroyer Another example is Krishna marrying Satyabhama, even though they were both Yadavas. Again, it may come down to different gotras within Yadavas.
@Tezz The Shanti Parva quote in my answer tells how different ones managed to survive; one was raised by bears, another was protected by Parashara, etc.
Yeah.. thanks for answer.... someone in this site has also answered Dasaratha married 60000 times 1 each year from the fear of Parashuram..
5:55 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan I think this can be considered as modern day jati or Kula. But how did the creators of this clan manage? the 1st ancestor?
@Tezz The Valmiki Ramayana only mentions 300 wives of Dasharatha, not 60,000; see my answer here:
A: Did Dasharatha have 60,000 wives?

Keshav SrinivasanThe claim of Dasharatha having 60,000 wives is from later versions of the Ramayana, particularly the Kamba Ramayana. But as far as the Valmiki Ramayana goes, Dasharatha has at least 350 wives, as described in the Ayodhya Kanda of the Ramayana: That king Dasaratha, who speaks truth, whose min...

@TheDestroyer Well, it depends on how far back you want to go. Like Yadu wouldn't be allowed to marry descendants of Yayati obviously, so he might have had to marry someone of the solar dynasty, since he was in the lunar dynasty. And ultimately if you go far back enough to the gods and the like, obviously rules on Sagotra marriage don't apply to them.
@KeshavSrinivasan In which chaturyuga Parashuram finished his last destruction for Kshyatriyas?..
@Tezz Well, Parashurama was born in the 19th Treta Yuga, but I'm not sure what Yuga or Yugas he did his destruction in. He did bring an end to one of the Kali Yugas, but I'm not sure which one.
@KeshavSrinivasan Do lord Vishnu incarnate avatars like Kalki in end of each Kaliyuga?...
@KeshavSrinivasan Agree.
6:08 AM
@Tezz Yeah, I think Vishnu probably does do some incarnation or the other to end each Kali Yuga by killing of evil people; Parashurama ended one, Kalki will end this one, and in one of the Mahayugas of the Swayambhuva Manvantara, Vishnu's incarnation Pramati ended the Kali Yuga.
Do Buddhist exist in each Kaliyuga?...
@KeshavSrinivasan Why Parasurama stopped killing evil rulers? When did he stopped killing evil rulers? I mean in which mahayuga?
@TheDestroyer I think his mother beated chest 21 times in ground... so he annhilated Parashuram 21 times...
@Tezz No, I think Buddhists are unique to this Kali Yuga. However, other similar Nastika philosophies have probably existed in other Kali Yugas.
@Tezz See my answer here for information on Vishnu's incarnation Pramati:
A: Did Lord Vishnu incarnate as Kalki in any of the previous yugas?

Keshav SrinivasanFirst of all, we know for a fact that Kalki doesn't come in every Kali Yuga. In this chapter of the Matsya Purana (an important Hindu scripture), various incarnations of Vishnu in the present Vaivasvata Manvantara are listed, but Kalki is only mentioned once, in the current Kali Yuga. This excer...

In Yoga Vasistha there is a sentence Buddha has incarnated 100 times in kaliyugas...
6:14 AM
@Tezz The Yoga Vasishta is widely considered to be a later text. In fact the earliest manuscripts of the Yoga Vasishta don't even mention Rama or Vasishtha.
In your answer there is Singalhese... I think it refers to Buddhist country..
Later text doesn't necessarily mean that it is wrong...
@Tezz The word Sinhala was used as a term for Lanka long before the birth of Buddha. It's used in the Mahabharata.
@Tezz Yeah, just because a text misrepresents its origins doesn't mean that everything that's written in it is incorrect.
What were the mlechhas there?..
@Tezz Well, just like in our Kali Yuga there are Mleccha races, in that Kali Yuga also there were Mleccha races.
Won't Dharma rise before the incarnation of kalki... The sandhya period of Satya yuga is 400 deva year ie.144000 yrs... won't Dharma rise in this sandhya of Satya?
6:24 AM
@Tezz I'm not sure what exactly goes on in the Sandhya period.
@Tezz By the way, regarding Dasharatha and Parashurama, I've heard a story where Parashurama comes to Ayodhya in the course of his rampage, so Dasharatha dresses up like a woman and says "please spare me, I'm a woman." Parashurama sees through the disguise immediately and is furious. And because the Sanskrit expression for "I'm a woman" literally means "I am someone who cannot father children." So Parashurama responds with a curse: "And so you shall remain."
@Tezz That explains why Dasharatha needed to do the Putrakameshti Yagna to get children. But I'm not sure if the story has a scriptural basis or it's just folklore. But interestingly, in the Valmiki Ramayana, when Parashurama confronts Rama, Dasharatha speaks to Parashurama but Parashurama ignores him, speaking only to Rama. Perhaps that's an indication that Parashurama is still angry at Dasharatha.
@KeshavSrinivasan Did Parashuram annhilated kshyatriyas also who surrendered ?
@Tezz Yes, he showed no mercy. However, as I said there were Kshatriyas who survived through various ways, like taking refuge in rishis' ashrams.
@KkeshavSrinivasan Isn't it against principle of dharma not to protect sharanagati...?
@Tezz Well, this is an incarnation of Vishnu we're talking about, and remember what Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita about those who perform Sharanagati to him: he'll grant them Moksha. That is exactly what Parashurama did to the kings he annihilated.
6:40 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan was Parashuram direct incarnation or someone who have high vishnu tatwa but soul of previous incarnation like Vyas incarnation..?
@Tezz Well, the whole term "Vishnu Tattva" is something that only Gaudiya Vaishnavas accept. In any case, I think Parashurama was an actual incarnation, although only a partial incarnation, just like Matsya, Kurma, and Varaha.
@KeshavSrinivasan how do you explain Vyas being partial incarnation of Vishnu but his soul can be traced to previous birth..?
@Tezz But I think some version of the Ramayana, maybe Tulsidas' Ram Charit Manas, says that there can only be one incarnation of Vishnu at a time, so when Parashurama confronts Rama, the avatara shakti leaves Parashurama's body and enters Rama's body. But I don't think that has any scriptural basis.
@KeshavSrinivasan I think I'm disturbing you asking dozens of questions...
@Tezz Well, there's more than two categories. The Purna vs. Amsha issue has to do with whether the incarnation has all qualities of Vishnu or just some of them. Then there's the Avesha vs. non-Avesha issue, which is whether the incarnation is a combination of an existing Jiva and Vishnu, or whether it just consists of Vishnu.
6:50 AM
Ram Charita Manas doesn't mean that... Ram broke dhanus before that incident meaning he was incarnation... he delivered Ahilya also before it...
@Tezz Haha no, I'm completely free and I love this stuff.
@Tezz I don't know if it's in the Ram Charit Manas or some other version. I've never read the Ram Charit Manas.
What is the condition of soul in Sayujya Mokshya?
@Tezz Sayujya refers to equality of experience with Brahman.
For eg. If soul merges with Vishnu what does this exactly mean?..
@Tezz I discuss Sayujya in my question here:
Q: Where is this Srimad Bhagavatam verse about the different forms of Moksha?

Keshav SrinivasanAccording to Vaishnavism, there are six kinds of liberation from Samsara (the cycle of birth, death, and rebirth). They're each defined in relation to Vishnu, since Vaishnavas consider Vishnu to be the supreme goal: Ekatva, or oneness with the Atma Salokya, or living in the same world as Vishnu...

@Tezz According to Visistadvaita, the Jiva can never become Brahman itself, but in Sayujya it attains full experience of Brahman without losing its distinctness as a Jiva.
6:58 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan Sarupya means same form of Vishnu... Do soul get the power of creation?
@Tezz No, the Brahma Sutras make clear that the Jiva obtains all powers except the powers of creating, preserving, and destroying the Universe.
@KeshavSrinivasan Doesn't soul get those power from Advaita point of view too..?
@Tezz Well, when it comes to Advaita, you always have to distinguish between two perspectives: the perspective within Maya, and the absolute perspective. In the perspective of someone within Maya, the Jiva is distinct from Brahman, and Brahman has powers of creation, preservation, and destruction while the Jiva does not.
@Tezz In the absolute perspective, i.e. in the perspective of someone who has moved beyond Maya, the Jiva and Brahman are the same, in fact Brahman is the only thing that exists. There is no such thing as the world, and thus no question of creating it, preserving it, or destroying it.
What is the property that makes one soul different from other?...
@Tezz The only property is that they had a different history of births, and have thus acquired different gunas, karmas, etc.
7:07 AM
Do they cease in mokshya state?
Or they remain in subtle form..?
I mean They=karmaa, guna etc.
@Tezz Yes, before getting Moksha we are freed from our sins, so we all become pure.
@Tezz That's why everyone in Paramapadam is eager to perform devotional service to Sriman Narayana, out of sheer joy.
@KeshavSrinivasan Does it mean that all souls are identical in mokshya state?
@Tezz Yeah, pretty much. We still have memories of our lives, but yeah as far as our fundamental natures we're basically identical.
@KeshavSrinivasan if we have memories of previous life how can mokshya be eternal? Bad memories of our will subtly generate bad karma...isn't it?
@Tezz No, we will have those memories but not be bothered by them, for we will realize that it was all a grand Lila by Sriman Narayana.
7:14 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan how soul remains in mokshya state... does it possesses manomaya vijnamaya aanandamaya kosha?
@Tezz The Jiva acquires a new Shuddha Sattva body similar in form to Vishnu. That's the "Sarupya' part.
What type of body Vishnu possess?
@Tezz A body made of Shuddha Sattva.
Jay Vijaya had attained Salokya mokshya... What caused them to generate ahhamkaara?
Shuddha satva contains sthula sarira or not?
@Tezz Vishnu may have caused it as part of his Lilas.
7:20 AM
There must be cause why those two particular souls become part of leela...
@Tezz Well, Shuddha Sattva is a substance, but as far as whether Vishnu possesses both a gross body and a subtle body, I think Para Vasudeva, the one who sits on a serpent couch in Paramapadam, has only a subtle body, whereas Vyuha Vasudeva, the one who sleeps on a serpent bed in Shwetadvipa, has both a gross and a subtle body.
@Tezz By the way, a more important point is that according to Visistadvaita, matter and Jivas together make up the body of Vishnu.
@Tezz That's the fundamental tenet of Visistadvaita, the Jivatma and Paramatma have a body-soul relationship.
Is there something term like Soul of Vishnu?
@Tezz Well, Vishnu is a soul. In fact he is the soul of the soul, the inner self of all Jivatmas.
What is the condition and place of jeevas in night of Brahma?..
@Tezz Well, in Pralayas the Jiva doesn't attain Moksha, it still maintains its Karmas in seed form.
7:30 AM
@KeshavSrinivasan can there be condition where all soul attained mokshya ?..
@Tezz That's a good question. Some people speculate that there are infinite Jivas, to avoid that exact situation.
@KeshavSrinivasan What is Shuddha Sattva? I asked a question about bodies of Trimurtis. hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/10118/…
@TheDestroyer I looked it... question was interesting..I think multiple brahmandas infinite jeeva concept are used to describe it..
@TheDestroyer I always wonder about sarir of Trimurtis...
@TheDestroyer Do you believe all types of mokshya are eternal ?..
Yeah. me too. Serials like Devon ke Dev Mahadev shows Parvathi Devi feeding Kartikeya. They sometimes portray her very inferior. @Tezz i have very little knowledge on this subject.
7:42 AM
@TheDestroyer I think Shankara and Parvati have gross body also... but Sadshiva and Parashakti have subtle body....
@Tezz could be.
@Tezz do you know scriptural basis for Pashupatinath Temple?
@TheDestroyer one story of Bhima catching Shiva in form of Buffalo... is it scriptual or not?
I mean which Purana has it.
@TheDestroyer in the side of Pashupatinath temple there is Shleshmantak van where Shiva Parvati roamed... it is mentioned in Skandha Purana..
@Tezz Thank you will read it. I am reading 2nd book and it takes time, as it is biggest Purana. This question is not answered from Skanda Puarana . I had glance at list of temples in index of Skanda Purana and i think i missed it. reference.hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/7070/…
7:52 AM
Kotirudra samhita chapter 11 contains Pashupatinath Shiva linga...
Ok Thanks.
@Tezz I had read wiki page.
@Tezz Ok. Nice to meet you. Bye. will talk to you later.
Ok ok... lets talk later...
7 hours later…
2:40 PM
@Tezz @TheDestroyer Regular matter has a mixture of the three Gunas, but the matter that Sriman Narayana's body is made of only has Sattva Guna in it. Matter that only has Sattva in it is called Shuddha Sattva. For more information on Shuddha Sattva and the nature of Vishnu's body, see this chapter of the Rahasyatraya Sara, a work by the Sri Vaishnava Acharya Vedanta Desikan: gdurl.com/Kq6J
@Tezz @TheDestroyer By the way, it's not just Para Vasudeva and Vyuha Vasudeva who have Shuddha Sattva bodies. Incarnations of Vishnu also have Shuddha Sattva bodies. Even divinely created statues of Vishnu, like Venkateshwara and Ranganatha, are made of Shuddha Sattva.
@Tezz "Do you believe all types of mokshya are eternal?" Well, some Sri Vaishnavas believe that Ekatva/Kaivalya liberation is not eternal; see my question here:
Q: Why do Vadakalai Sri Vaishnavas believe that Advaita liberation is not eternal?

Keshav SrinivasanMembers of the Sri Vaishnava sect of Hinduism, especially the Iyengars (Sri Vaishnavas who are Brahmanas), are divided into two sub-sects, Thenkalais and Vadakalais. These two sub-sects both agree on the Visishtadvaita philosophy of Ramanujacharya that characterizes the Sri Vaishnava belief syste...

@Tezz But all other forms of liberation are definitely eternal; once you reach Paramapadam you never have to return to Samsara.
3:08 PM
@Tezz "I think Shankara and Parvati have gross body also... but Sadshiva and Parashakti have subtle body" Well, as a Sri Vaishnava I don't really believe in Sadashiva and Adi Parashakti... or so I thought until recently. Now I've come across a statement by a Sri Vaishnava Acharya that the 25-headed Sadashiva carries Para Vasudeva in Paramapadam; see my question here:
Q: What scriptures describe Sadashiva carrying Vishnu in Vishnu's abode of Paramapadam?

Keshav SrinivasanAs I discuss in this question, the Sri Vaishnava sect (of which I am a member) places great importance on the Divya Desams, the 108 sacred places of Vishnu which are mentioned in the poems of the Alwars. Now two of the Divya Desams are not even on Earth! As I discuss here, there is Thiruparkada...

3:33 PM
@Tezz By the way, here's the section of Adi Shankaracharya's Brahma Sutra Bhashya where he discusses liberated souls not having powers of creation, preservation, and destruction: sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe38/sbe38333.htm
4:31 PM
@KeshavSrinivasan Do you mean 25 headed Sada Shiva and Para Vasudeva have same type of body...? As same type of body would be needed to carry...
@KeshavSrinivasan Well But I have just exact opposite view with you in concept of eternity of Mokshya... I only believe advaita mokshya is eternal as it is removing veil of Maya from Brahman...as Brahman is eternal hence in my view only Advaita mokshya is eternal... In case of Salokya, Sarupya etc. I don't view them as eternal because they still possess form...
@KeshavSrinivasan In my view formed objects posssess length and energy and both length and energy are subjected to time ( as per relativity)..Hence I don't view Sayujya Sarupya mokshya as eternal... I think these type of Mokshya one day will surely be subjected with ego after billions of years( may be it as part of Lords leela like in case of Jay Vijaya).. Hence I only view advaita mokshya as eternal as Brahman is itself eternal...
@KeshavSrinivasan The main problem is that I can't accept formed thing as eternal...In my view formed things are always subjected to time... be it by the Lords leela or other... Hence I view Mokshya is eternal only when no distinction remains between soul and Brahman... ie when soul = Brahman... Hence I don't accept dvaita, visistadvaita and other mokshya as eternal...
@Tezz No, you don't need to be made of Shuddha Sattva to carry something made of Shuddha Sattva. Vibhishana carried the Ranganatha statue, even though his body was made of Shuddha Sattva.
@Tezz Well, the reason why ordinary objects are subject to decay over the course of time is that they're made of matter that has a mixture of Gunas. If an object is made of Shuddha Sattva, there is nothing in its nature that can lead to decay.
@KeshavSrinivasan Did Rama and Krishna also have shuddha satva body...?
@Tezz Yes, they did. By the way, Sriman Narayana can dissolve any one of his Shuddha Sattva bodies at will.
Blood comes or not when such bodies are cut..?
@Tezz Yes, blood comes. Things made of Shuddha Sattva need not be indestructible.
@Tezz They just don't decay of their own accord, for there is nothing impure that would cause a decay.
4:43 PM
Means body of Rama is not made up of Panchamahabhta..?
@Tezz I'm not sure exactly how the elements work when it comes to Shuddha Sattva matter. The Rahasyatraya Sara chapter I linked to might contain information on that.
@KeshavSrinivasan But for eg. Sanatkumars were able to see Jay and Vijaya... ie. it means there must be something such like physical which transferred from body of Jaya Vijaya to eyes of Sanatkumar.. ie. In our case photons... Hence I view that can't be eternal...
@Tezz Well, the Sanatkumaras are also incarnations of Vishnu.
@KeshavSrinivasan Everything is incarnation of Vishnu... isn't it?...
@Tezz No, it isn't. There is a distinction between Sriman Narayana beng the Antaryami of your soul, and Sriman Narayana being your soul itself.
@Tezz By the way, we shouldn't confuse the gross matter vs. subtle matter issue with the ordinary matter vs. Shuddha Sattva issue. The question of whether photons bounce off an object, i.e. the question of whether it can be perceived by the senses, has to do with whether it is a gross object or a subtle object. It has nothing to do with what Gunas the object contains.
4:55 PM
@KeshavSrinivasan But Asurs are also able to view Lord Vishnu... that means they are certainly able to view mokshya souls like Sarupya Sayujya like of Jay Vijaya... But Asurs arent incarnation as Sanatkumars..
@Tezz Since when has an Asura ever seen Para Vasudeva? Para Vasudeva never steps out of Paramapadam.
Mokshya souls can be percieved by sense or not?
@Tezz Only Vyuha Vasudeva goes into battle with Asuras.
@Tezz I think just like Para Vasudeva, liberated souls only have a subtle body, not a gross body, so they would be imperceptible to the ordinary senses.
@KeshavSrinivasan well we can never agree in this debate because we are exactly opposite... I know I'm wrong... But due to my Prakriti Swabhava I can't think any formed things as eternal... This is also Lords maya over me... But what can I do... I'm bounded with Prakriti Swabhava...
@Tezz Haha, I think the problem is all your life you've only been exposed to matter which inherently decays over time, because it's made of a mixture of Gunas. You need to understand that decay is not a property of time itself, rather it's a property of how things react to time.
5:04 PM
@KeshavSrinivasan no I'm not viewing these things as ordinary matter... and I'm not applying rules of radioactivity in them... I simply think if thing is formed then it must have origin... if it have origin then it cannot be eternal...Although saguna form is eternal but nirguna is more eternal than that eternal... there is concept of a greater infinity than infinity like this...
5:37 PM
@Tezz "I simply think if thing is formed then it must have origin" Yes, that's the fundamental difference. Just because an object is spatially extended does not mean that it has an origin. It's possible for a spatially extended object to have existed for all eternity.
@Tezz This point is somewhat related to Ramanujacharya's refutation of the Nyaya school, which I discuss in my question here:
Q: Have there been any responses to Ramanujacharya's refutation of the Cosmological Argument for the existence of God?

Keshav SrinivasanIn Western philosophy, one of the most common arguments for the existence of God is the cosmological argument, which states roughly that the Universe must have a cause, and thus it must have a creator, which is God. (There's also a more sophisticated version of the cosmological argument develope...

2 hours later…
7:50 PM
@Tezz Also, I disagree with your view that that which has an origin must have an end. A brand-new Shuddha Sattva body is created for the Jiva when it gets Moksha, but that Shuddha Sattva body never decays, because there is nothing impure in it that would cause it to decay.

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