Moonwards

3:56 AM

i've looked at some, it's been a while since i last checked. I have paid attention mostly to Paul Spudis's design, a little bit to the ones by Dennis Wingo and Charles Miller.

I never found anything that looked farther into the future and was at all realistic. That is my difficulty, reference points for the kind of thing i'm trying to do are few.

Madhu Thangavelu has a book with some good designs, but still too much based on previous ideas that aren't so relevant any more.

He runs a course on space architectural design, and there are booklets online that present the work of his students, some of which are also interesting designs.

kim holder

4:16 AM

sites.google.com/a/usc.edu/aste527/home

Haym Benaroya has done a lot of work that surveys different approaches to structures on the moon, and has a book that does an overview of all aspects of lunar settlement.

spacearchitect.org/pubs/AIAA-2002-6113.pdf

this paper goes over the approach that would have been used in the Constellation program

spacearchitect.org/pubs/AIAA-2013-5436.pdf

Dennis Wingo has good stuff on his blog, several articles there are worth reading

all of these approaches are different enough to what Moonwards is trying to do that i can only take small bits and pieces of them. They have heavily influenced what i do, but indirectly enough it is hard to make any direct comparisons.

MolbOrg

ok, that interesting. Recently I did some quite bold statements about different space programs(which you might probably guess at that time already), but then I thought that I kinda lack overview picture on those and deeper knowledge about them.(the fact I immediately mentioned in my claims)
the focus of my interests about those is probably fresh not that recent projects/ideas/startups - how far and how deep their fantasy goes, which common elements they have.

kim holder

the most recent and most credible proposals for lunar settlement are from Paul Spudis, Charles Miller, and Dennis Wingo. But these plans are only about the very initial stages and do not have many details at all.

I'll mention LunarCots, though i feel that plan is not vetted properly and is a mish-mash of other designs.

but if those plans are too short-term for me, for you they would have even less to offer.

lunarbase.rutgers.edu/program.php

^ the speakers listed in blue can be clicked on and their presentations will download. That was a who's who of lunar scientists, i wish i had been there.

MolbOrg

4:33 AM

the first link, woow looks like heavy stuff.
>I'll mention LunarCots, though i feel that plan is not vetted properly and is a mish-mash of other designs.
those probably are my clients of subjects of interest. I kinda try to understand the general attitude to space with those fresh projects. They aren't general public, they try to figure things out and that makes things interesting in terms to see how do they see space, options, goals, what is all for and about etc etc.

kim holder

lunarcots.com

i don't know how representative it is, really. to me, it is a very particular vision.

MolbOrg

>but if those plans are too short-term for me, for you they would have even less to offer.
I guess, K1 stuff distraction :). Better to think of me as a short-term planning guy. Kinda, what we will do on the first moon day of landing, that short-term guy. If we do not plug a flag or do a research and have no humans ))

kim holder

and still, fairly short term.

oh? well, then that material i think is just what you are after.

Spudis Lunar Resources is one i really like.

MolbOrg

lunacots - I see, what a coincidence I had the page open for further reading investigation queue

kim holder

his angle is about how to get there with existing technology on a short timeline that is inexpensive.

i would say any of the other principal writers i have listed have a more realistic and developed plan.

heheheh

well, you've tried the 'reply to this message' link now. you just have to get used to it. :)

MolbOrg

4:43 AM

*for some reason I can't see text while do editing of comments, so changing something is a pain for me

kim holder

hm, that's odd.

MolbOrg

there is a way around - select it and then it can be seen and used to place the cursor. yea odd, and it was for some short time once or twice(a long time ago) everything was ok

kim holder

i suppose there is such a huge range of devices and browsers that a few have glitches

MolbOrg

I can edit a message because I have Grammarly plugin installed and it catches text and I can open it in kinda another frame, but it kinda slowish and it is a heavy artillery

but yes, links are interesting, I'll try to investigate them a bit later

what is your general impression about existing space projects - old or fresh ones, which you have seem

kim holder

gee, that's tough... i think that these questions have had so little resources devoted to them that they all suffer from big weaknesses.

i mean, as far as they can go on the limited resources they have, those three plans do a good job - Spudis, Wingo, Miller.

MolbOrg

4:49 AM

yeah, I think so, but more on the ideas level, not that they consisting out of technical holes like a good cheese

kim holder

i genuinely believe that the rate at which robotics is now improving, the capabilities robots would have on a real mission would go well beyond what any of them have contemplated.

especially if there was a real program of settlement that had the proper amount of resources devoted to it.

beyond that, they do a good job.

MolbOrg

or or, that's interesting in your particular case, what do you expect them to do if they had more resources, which things they should develop then? (hm, I feel myself like journalist :D, so unusual to listen :DDD)

kim holder

number one - nuclear rockets.

really ought to be a no-brainer. so sad that it isn't.

more broadly, i wish they had the confidence in an ongoing exploration program that would allow them to act like real engineers.

MolbOrg

advantages yes, but the implementation in next 20 years a nothing burger.(if one will do in 15 all will be shoked)

> i wish they had the confidence in an ongoing exploration program that would allow them to act like real engineers.

very well

kim holder

you prototype, send the robots out there, play around with them, figure out what they can do and what the problems are, make new prototypes, and then send those out.

and you repeat that until you get it right.

MolbOrg

4:55 AM

yeah need dedication and long lasting goal

knowledge or impression what needs to be achieved

but yes, a big deal, agree

kim holder

they are forced to build things that will just work, in one self-contained package, no follow-up, nothing too ambitious

MolbOrg

where comes that fear of a fail, is it just only an uncertainty of future for the space exploration or a program?

kim holder

there is a lot of competition for funding, and NASA is very keenly aware of politics. They can't afford for any mission to fail in any way.

i mean, they do sometimes anyhow, but their planning mentality is do everything possible to ensure every mission will achieve all its stated goals.

all in one go - they never plan for follow-up missions, not really. they can't be sure they will actually happen, and they can't send one more often than one per decade.

MolbOrg

ok, seems my bold statements I did recently in some of my comments aren't that bold after all

So nasa as a system, politics as politics

is that all? I watched few videos from recent 20th Mars society conference, was quite interesting the tone they were using. I'm not sure is it different from what they do usually, but for me it was quite unexpected, kinda tired criticism of current situation, they even agree on moon at that time )))

*almost

MolbOrg

5:20 AM

btw, it is kinda about practicality of space, more the second half but it is a short piece
https://im42group.wordpress.com/2017/10/15/k1-energy-budget-is-it-too-much-for-us/

not sure have you seen it or not

kim holder

3:14 PM

yes, i saw that post a little while ago. it has some interesting concepts.

orbital rings around every planet - bold :)

the rest makes sense, but because it is really impossible to be at all specific, i don't think about that stage of our development very much

i notice you didn't include interstellar travel. pushing a large ship to near the speed of light is a good way to use lots of energy .

kim holder

3:32 PM

i would pay more attention to your blog, and to your facebook group (though i dislike facebook) if i was past some major work that still needs doing on Moonwards. i haven't moved into the social phase of the project.

so, forgive me if i sometimes don't follow up. i continue to be so deep in work i don't pause very much.

MolbOrg

11:33 PM

>i notice you didn't include interstellar travel. pushing a large ship to near the speed of light is a good way to use lots of energy .

yes, I see it as a pointless waste of time and effort, as long as you can't send a system which will be self-sufficient at the place and be capable to grow.
Probes aren't a problem and they do not require a lot of energy to send, but they also benefit from being a system which could enroll itself to gain additional capabilities from ISRU.
A good network of interferometers in our solar system will get more information and faster about a much bigger set of o…

but generally, it depends on the people who are interested in using the energy for their interstellar things - the point is they also should be interested in having it in the first place, but generally they are in the same basket as mars guys for me

>forgive me if i sometimes don't follow up.
no problem, I do not expect it from people and do not expect it^2 from people who have their own projects.
and at that point in time, my successes are minuscule(if at all) so basically nothing to see )))

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