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3:05 AM
Does it make sense to have an exact/almost-exact ODE with a nonzero RHS. For example, $M(x,\ y)\ dx + N(x,\ y)\ dy = L(x,\ y)$?
 
3:40 AM
Hey just want to check if my argument make sense
Find all possible functions $f : \mathbb{Q} \rightarrow \mathbb{R}$ such that f is continous and has compact support.
Claim f := 0.
Suppose $f \neq 0$ then $f^{-1}(\{0\})$ is closed in $\mathbb{Q}$ thus we have that $f^{-1}(\{0\})$ is closed in Q. That is $\mathbb{Q} - f^{-1}(\{0\})$ is compact neighborhood of Q.
we know that all cpct subsets of Q has non-empty interior contradiction.
what do you guys think?
 
 
4 hours later…
7:24 AM
I don't get how plugging in $n=-1$ does not gives $2\pi i/r$
 
 
2 hours later…
9:42 AM
If $M$ is a manifold with universal covering $\widetilde{M} \to M$, then $\pi_1(M)$ acts on $\widetilde{M}$ and I can identify $M$ with $\Gamma \backslash \widetilde{M}$ where $\Gamma := \text{im}(\pi_1(M) \to \text{Homeo}(\widetilde{M}))$. Now if $U \subset \text{Homeo}(\widetilde{M})$ is a finite index subgroup, then $M$ is finitely covered by $(U \cap \Gamma) \backslash \widetilde{M}$, right?
 
 
3 hours later…
12:56 PM
@Silent I don't really see where $r$ is entering in the first place. You've got a unit circle, not a circle of radius $r$. (You could consider a circle of radius $r$ but that's not part of the theorem statement.)
If you did, though, then the substitution rule would give $z=re^{it}\implies dz=i re^{it}\,dt$
so you'd have an extra factor of $r$, canceling the one you're worried about
 
1:50 PM
@Newbie the empty set is compact and has interior $\emptyset$
You'd have to also specify a topology on Q. If it is as a subspace of R, etc....
 
 
1 hour later…
3:07 PM
hey @anakhro
 
Hey Newbie (you should change your name, since we are all newbies at something here). :)
 
anyways I am not assuming that in my problem $f \neq 0$
I fixed my problem
 
It was a good start.
It gives you one of the functions.
 
that is all functions actually
 
All continuous functions $\mathbb Q\to\mathbb R$ with compact support?
 
3:15 PM
yeah
are the 0 function
 
Oh I missed the compact support before.
 
$\mathbb{R} - 0$ is open
$f^{-1}(\mathbb{R} - 0)$ is open subset of Q that whose closure is compact
if $f \neq 0$ then that means that subset is a proper subset
@anakhro do you know measure theory ?
I am trying to find a counter example
 
A counterexample to what?
 
you know total variation of complex measure ?
 
Yes.
Or wait, not of a complex measure
What is it defined as for a measure?
 
3:21 PM
$|u|(A) = sup \Sigma u(A_n)$
for partition $A_n$ of A.
 
So what's your statement you are tryingto find a counterexample for?
 
$|u|(E) \leq |u(E)|$ this is false
 
Nothing immediately comes to mind.
Does the analogue hold for real-valued measures?
Or is the other way correct, that $|\mu|(E) \geqq |\mu(E)|$?
 
This is correct one can prove it
I am trying to find counter example
 
Shouldn't be too hard given that the other inequality is true.
Otherwise the concept is kind of useless. ;)
Just try out the simplest complex measures you can think of.
Which aren't positive-finite, I think.
Those wouldn't be helpful? Maybe?
I need to do more measure theory. I read a bit to follow a course in functional analysis but did nothing more. :(
 
3:40 PM
why does the Taylor series of an exponential function f(x) at every point $x_0$ converge to f(x) for all values of x?
 
sorry
I am mistaken
I want to prove that $|v|(E) \leq \sqrt {|v_r|(E)^2 + |v_i|(E)^2}$
prove or disprove
 
4:06 PM
nvm I proved it
 
@CaptainBohemian Look at the error (remainder) term in Taylor's Theorem, and show that for any $x$ it goes to $0$ as $n\to\infty$.
 
hi chat
 
hi @Semiclassic
 
hi @TedShifrin
 
howdy
 
4:09 PM
@TedShifrin I decided that I really like analysis I will spend my next year developing my foundation in analysis and algebra.
so I do both algebraic geometry from analytic side and algebraic side
I am not gonna go crazy with math though.
 
If you say so ....
 
@TedShifrin I am attending a workshop organized by Cox in Taiwan in July :D
so excited for that
 
Workshop on what?
 
David Cox
Toric geometry
 
Ah, OK.
 
4:12 PM
neat
 
I have not been out of Canada for 8 years
so it would be nice
 
the bit of algebraic geometry that I've been brushing up against lately is (real) convex algebraic geometry
though i really do mean 'brushing up against'---not any solid contact on my part
 
@Semiclassical If you want to go into algebraic geometry I suggest Karen book
then have very good foundation in algebra using Allufi chapter 0 and Michael atiyah's book
also complex geometry
then after that going into abstract algebraic geometry through Hartshrone
this algebraic geometry is so vast though like to understand it properly you have to do like epsilon nearby math to properly understand ti
 
My favourite person named Ted.
 
what i've got in mind is the subject surveyed here: sites.math.washington.edu/~thomas/frg/frgbook/…
 
4:17 PM
Hi @anakhro
 
@TedShifrin kind of late to reply to what you said, but to show that $T_{(p,0)}TM\cong T_pM\oplus T_pM$ for the zero $v(p)=0$ of the vector field $v$, is the point to use the first isomorphism theorem on the pushforward of $\pi_{TM}\colon TM\to M$ at $p$?
 
I have no idea how the first iso thm gives you a direct sum.
My comment when you asked was to take the tangent space to the zero section at $(p,0)$.
 
I guess that gets you an external product, not an internal product.
the iso theorem I mean
$T_{(p,0)}TM \cong T_pM\times \ker\pi_{*,(p,0)}$
 
Getting an iso $V/W\cong Y$ doesn't give a natural isomorphism $V \cong W\oplus Y$. You need an inner product or more structure.
The tangent space to the fiber works at any $(p,v)$. We need the zero section to get the first factor, @anakhro.
 
So if the zero section is $Z := \{(q,0)\in TM \mid q\in M\}$, then you are saying take the tangent space $T_{(p,0)}Z \cong T_pM$?
 
4:25 PM
Right.
 
That doesn't depend on $v(p) = 0_p$ though, does it?
 
Of course it does.
 
I don't see why that is the case.
 
The only canonical section a vector bundle has is the zero section.
There is no way to get a complement to the tangent space of the fiber at a general point $(p,v)$ without more structure (a connection on the vector bundle).
 
But taking the tangent space of $Z$ at $(p,0)$ doesn't require $v(p) = 0_p$, and the iso to $T_pM$ doesn't, right?
 
4:28 PM
I don't know why you keep writing $v(p)$. We're just talking about the tangent bundle of $TM$ ...
 
I know.
But the context of the question was with that information, so I am just wondering if it is always the case that $T_{(p,0)}TM \cong T_pM\oplus T_pM$
 
For a general section of $TM$ to put you at a point of the zero section of course means that the section vanishes at the point.
You mean $(p,0)$.
 
Yes, sorry.
 
That's what I've said 5 times now.
 
Sorry, my mom told me that learning to read was important but I never listened. :(
 
4:30 PM
Only at points of the zero section do you get a canonical splitting. Anywhere else needs a connection on the bundle.
LOL, so you neither listened nor read.
 
So the first $T_pM$ is from the fibre.
I guess the ordering isn't really important...
 
I always put the fiber second, personally.
But it matters only for understanding what we're talking about.
 
So I look at $TM$. I look at the fibre $\pi^{-1}(\{p\})$. This is the submanifold $T_pM$ of $TM$.
Should I take a trivializing chart about $p$ so that I am looking at $\pi^{-1}(V) \cong U\times \mathbb R^n$, first?
Doesn't seem to help to do that chart.
I am just trying to sew the pieces together.
 
Back in a few minutes.
 
Sure, enjoy!
 
4:40 PM
@TedShifrin isn't doing that like a brutal work? Can that really be done by pen and paper with ease? Or is it better to be done by some computational software? I consider there is some intuitive way to understand this. I think of two ways to understanding this: 1 every Lie group can be expressed in terms of an exponential function; 2. all group manifolds are parallelizable.
 
I want to decompose $T_{(p,0)}TM$, but I don't see how to decompose it as $T_{(0,p)}Z\oplus T_{(0,p)}\pi^{-1}(\{p\})$.
I guess the point is to pick one of the direct summands and show the other is naturally the complement.
 
But I think the two points may be the result of that the Taylor series of any exponential function f(x) at every point $x_0$ converges to f(x) for all values of x, rather the reason of it. @TedShifrin
 
@anakhro: It's easy to see they're complements.
@CaptainBohemian: Software will never make a proof or understanding of why this is true.
The other things you're saying are off the deep end.
If $f(x) = P_n(x) + R_n(x)$, where $P_n$ is the $n$th Taylor polynomial, then the Taylor series is the limit of $P_n$ as $n\to\infty$. Thus, you must show that $R_n(x)\to 0$ as $n\to\infty$. No other way to make a rigorous argument.
 
If your approach to understanding the behavior of a single-variable function is to dive into Lie group theory and manifolds, something has probably gone wrong.
 
4:56 PM
Hey there everybody!
 
Look it's Daminark.
 
Oh no. It's a Demonark.
 
:0 where?
 
@anakhro: If you want to convince yourself of the complementation, it's fine in local coordinates on the vector bundle. One is the first $\Bbb R^n$ factor and the other is the other $\Bbb R^n$ factor. (By the way, there's nothing special here about the tangent bundle. It works for any vector bundle. Perhaps the general case would even be clearer.)
Lurking @Demonark.
 
The following isn't rigorous, I suppose, but:
Let $f_n(x)=(1+x/n)^n=\sum_{k=0}^n \binom{n}{k}(x/n)^k$ and $f(x) = \sum_{k=0}^\infty x^k/k!$
 
5:01 PM
That's gonna end up messier, @Semiclassic ...
 
Yeah
I mean, it's neat that you can see $\frac{1}{n^k}\binom{n}{k}\to \frac{1}{k!}$ as $n\to\infty$
but that's about all that's nice
 
All we need for the approach I'm suggesting is to know that $\lim\limits_{n\to\infty} x^n/n! = 0$.
 
ah, yeah
 
Totally elementary.
 
@TedShifrin it holds on arbitrary smooth vector bundles?
(i assume it needs smoothness to take the tangent space, but I don't know much about vector bundles)
 
5:07 PM
Yes, for an arbitrary smooth vector bundle $E$ (of any rank!), $T_{(p,0)}E \cong T_pM\oplus E_p$ canonically.
 
That's clean. I will try to do it generally like you said because maybe broadening the scope will make me less distracted by nuances of tangent bundles.
 
Here's a piece of math which I haven't run into much before: polynomial resultants
I can see why it's relevant for what I'm doing, though
 
Yeah, sometimes Polya's principle is really right: A problem can get easier if you generalize it.
 
It's a classic topic that "all" students used to know over a century ago, @Semiclassic. Not us modern kids, though.
You can see it in Lang's Algebra.
 
5:12 PM
That, I believe
 
I've seen resultants in the proof for weak Bezout
 
@TedShifrin I don't remember if I asked you this before, but are you especially fond of Arnold?
 
and of course discriminants are important, but that's just a special case
 
in my case, i'm seeing that I can view a certain (complicated) polynomial expression as the resultant of two simpler ones
doesn't entirely resolve my confusion tho
 
hi @Mathein
 
5:16 PM
hi @Ted
 
@anakhro: "especially"? Nah, but he's impressive.
 
Certainly. Has very strong opinions, though.
 
I once wrote a paper with one of my co-workers where we took pages to prove in total rigor (among other things) stuff that Arnold just asserted with a wave of his hand.
It was the beginning of a series of harder and harder papers, but it's still one of my favorites.
 
Heh. Do you think that is a problem in mathematics when people handwave like that?
 
Arnold strikes me in a lot of ways as being closer to a physicist than a mathematician
 
5:18 PM
according to Arnold, mathematics is just a branch of physics, right?
 
I think sometimes mathematicians get too obsessed with rigor and one loses all understanding/intuition. It takes a blend.
 
yeah, there's a continuum there between "asserts stuff without foundation" and "proves every single step down to the last"
 
I don't think Arnold would say $\text{math}\subset\text{physics}$
 
I think he argues that physics is important for math.
 
5:22 PM
"Mathematics is a part of physics. Physics is an experimental science, a part of natural science. Mathematics is the part of physics where experiments are cheap."
 
I think interpreting that as "math is a branch of physics" is not good.
 
Hi everyone
 
Especially since there is clearly a metaphor being made there.
 
I don't really see why. I think the more pertinent point is that he's got a far broader understanding of what counts as "physics"
 
how is that a metaphor?
 
5:24 PM
The metaphor is between what mathematicians do and cheap experiments.
 
Howdy demonic @Alessandro
 
I don't think Arnold is actually asserting mathematics is deeply experimental in the same sense as a scientist, as I think he of anyone would know that the experimental nature of physics is so that one can make an empirical claim, but in math there is no empirical claims.
 
"The Jacobi identity (which forces the heights of a triangle to cross at one point) is an experimental fact in the same way as that the Earth is round (that is, homeomorphic to a ball). But it can be discovered with less expense."
 
I'm finally done with exams for this semester!
 
I mean, you're basically saying we should take him as speaking poetically rather than literally
 
5:26 PM
Yes.
And I think he'd agree.
 
Mazltov, @Alessandro.
 
I mean, the question becomes what reason we have to believe that he intended things one way or another. He might've intended it as a metaphor, my guess is that he feels physics and geometry are extremely close and was gunning for something along those lines, he might actually be really bad at philosophy of math
 
If you read his mathematical methods for physicists, he conveys this.
Akin to Lockhart's "math is a beautiful simplification of our ugly world" kind of thing, Arnold is saying that math began as us modeling physical phenomenon (and shows no sign of stopping).
 
I read it more as him having a rather expansive understanding of what comprised "physics"
 
The quote "Mathematics is a part of physics." in itself doesn't even indicate that math is in any way a subset of physics.
It just asserts that math is involved in physics.
But I wouldn't put it past him to say something bold and simplified for the sake of getting something across.
 
5:30 PM
I wonder a bit about the translation here.
 
e.g. his "all geometry is contact geometry" comment.
Which is clearly oversimplified.
 
e.g. "Mathematics is the part of physics where experiments are cheap."
 
Yes, and just like "all geometry is contact geometry" was a poetic reference, I think this quote you chose is also one.
I feel like "<blank> is the part of <blank> where <blank> are cheap" is somewhat of an idiom? It sounds familiar in that form.
 
It doesn't sound like any standard phraseology to me.
It sounds like a particular sentence.
 
I disagree with a lot of what Arnold says in the linked text
 
5:34 PM
Luckily for me, I'm leaving in a moment.
 
It was Cayley who said "all geometry is projective geometry", by the way.
@MatheinBoulomenos where does your main disagreement lie? Just wondering.
 
Knowing when to take someone literally vs. poetically is easy in some cases
not so easy in this one
 
for one, I don't think that taking physics courses is that uselul for all math students
 
I dunno, when a hugely successful pure mathematician (and not hugely successful experimental physicist) starts making bold claims about the role of physics in math, you probably should feel that he's being blunt for a reason.
@MatheinBoulomenos do you think seeing application of mathematics outside of math is useful for all math students?
 
I disagree with you, @Mathein, because so much of mathematics comes from and leads to physics. I have a broader view of education than you do, I think.
And if you're going to teach students mathematics other than abstract algebra, the likelihood is that physics will be a motivation for some of what you teach.
 
5:39 PM
why not allow CS courses instead?
 
My multivariable calculus class (whether rigorous or not) has a lot of physics stuff in it.
Newton didn't do CS.
 
@MatheinBoulomenos this is where I am thinking he's oversimplifying.
But Ted has a point.
CS is not the historical background for the majority of mathematics.
 
Yippee for point.
Of course, all math majors should learn some programming and CS, and I told every one of my advisees that. But this is a different discussion.
 
holds up a 10 sign for Ted.
 
That has more to do with employment and the fact that research even in pure math has become more computer-oriented. So, sure. But this is a totally different discussion.
LOL @anakhro.
 
5:42 PM
@anakhro many Bourbaki members were also hugely successful pure mathematicians
 
Definitely
By my definition of hugely successful pure mathematicans, all of them were.
 
Yeah I don't know if being good at math translates to being good at epistemology
 
That's not what was supposed to be conveyed by what I said, Daminark.
 
What do you mean then by "blunt for a reason"?
 
Ted departs
 
5:45 PM
Bye Ted!
 
See you Ted
 
I think that the axiomatic method is fundamentally different from empirical methods of natural sciences, unlike Arnold suggests
Bye Ted!
 
@Daminark I mean that, [obviously] some people take offence to what Arnold said about the relation of math and physics, and definitely some would say it is deprecative of mathematics, the thing that Arnold is respected and known for. Why someone of Arnold's position would make strong statements like these when they meant to be taken in the deprecative way (to the detriment of their fame)---there would have to be some outlandish reason beyond being poor at epistemology.
 
For me the question is not what Arnold's view of math was but his view of physics
 
That is to say, the bluntness Arnold displays is not that of someone who sucks at epistemology, but that of either someone who has some substantial life-altering reason for saying it (in the deprecative way), or someone who is simply not meaning it in that sense to begin with.
 
5:51 PM
It definitely seems that Arnold is deprecating certain kinds of mathematics (axiomatic, algebraic...) because he prefers other kinds (physics-based, geometric)
 
Take Arnold seriously, but not literally? :D
 
Well, I think if you took him literally, you'd be on my side anyway.
But take it with a grain of salt is what I mean.
He's got a sense of humour, which comes out quite often.
 
I mean the question of whether Arnold believes verbatim the words he says is different from the question of the value judgment. In principle you could believe that math is a subset of physics and think that this doesn't say anything bad about math
 
Depends, as I say, as much as what he means by "physics" as he does by "math"
 
@MatheinBoulomenos He's suggesting that only relying on axiomatic definitions for things while not appealing to the reason and intuition behind the axiomatic definition will be a detriment to the student.
 
5:55 PM
This is true, though I imagine people still think the latter is still quite relevant since no reasonable definition of physics is likely to include, for instance, mathematical logic.
 
if you go meta enough it might just include mathematical logic
 
No it's not like you have a subject called quantum logic or anything like that
 
why do I need to know about hypocycloids before learning about ideals?
 
how this works vis. a vis quantum mechanics is probably confusing in its own right
e.g. quantum mechanics doesn't involve momentum and position in the same sense as in classical mechanics, but you still need to be able to talk about the results of experiments in those terms
 
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