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12:05 AM
@ZachHauk Here's something interesting. Consider $ax^2+bx+c$. Assume $p>q$. Clearly, $p-q$ isn't symmetric, but $(p-q)^2$ is! Thus, we can find $p-q$ (in terms of the coefficients) by taking the square root.
 
loh yeah
oh*
 
(A little work gives $(p-q)^2=(p+q)^2-4pq=\frac{b^2}{a^2}-4\frac ca$, which means $p-q=\sqrt{\frac{b^2}{a^2}-4\frac ca}=\frac{\sqrt{b^2-4ac}}a$.
 
so basically what we are saying is
 
@ZachHauk Now, we know $p-q$ and $p+q$.
So $p$ is the average of these.
 
quadratic formula?
 
12:07 AM
Using what I just derived, we get $p=\frac{b+\sqrt{b^2-4ac}}{2a}$.
 
yep that looks quite like the quadratic formula to me
 
So we just derived the quadratic formula, yeah!
 
so what this all means is that
any symmetric polynomial is the sum or product of elementary cyclic sums?
or some combination of sums and products
 
@ZachHauk Yeah. We used that fact to know that $(p-q)^2$ would be something in terms of the coefficients.
 
in this case, quite an easy one
 
12:09 AM
So, just from knowing that fact, (and also from knowing that $(p-q)^2$ is symmetric), we were able to derive the quadratic formula.
 
@AkivaWeinberger oh and to find $q$ youd look at the average of $q-p$ and $p+q$
which is why the $\pm$ takes place
 
interesting
last year in algebra 1 we just completed the square w/ variable and boom derived
but this is much easier
at least as far as work goes
fuck i have to write a blog post literary analysis tonight
 
Take the cubic equation, also: Define $s_1=pq^2+qr^2+rp^2$ and $s_2=p^2q+q^2r+r^2p$.
 
$p,q,r$ are roots i assume?
 
12:11 AM
Yeah
Those aren't symmetric, but $s_1+s_2$ and $(s_1-s_2)^2$ are.
That means they can be written in terms of the coefficients.
(I won't make you do the work.)
 
why isnt $s_1$ symmetric?
 
If you switch $p$ and $q$, you get $s_2$.
 
oh good point
 
Some permutations switch $s_1$ and $s_2$; other permutations (specifically, the cyclical ones) keep them the same.
 
the 3-cycles right?
 
12:13 AM
Yeah
 
is it something to do with odd and even cycles? or am i just being stupid here
 
In any case, from the same argument as before, we can find out $s_1$ and $s_2$ in terms of the coefficients and one square root sign.
@ZachHauk It does.
The even ones keep them in the same place; the odd ones switch them.
 
oh sweet
uhh isnt it the opposite way?
the 2-cycle switches between them?
 
Those are the odd permutations. The names are a bit confusing.
 
I guess you could say they're
odd
 
12:15 AM
Odd permutations are the ones that are made from an odd number of 2-cycles; even ones are from an even number of 2-cycles.
 
oh,
 
Switching p and q, and then q and r, gives you an even permutation, for example.
(And you can check that it's a 3-cycle.)
 
The rule is: every time you swap two things, you multiply by -1
 
That would be for $s_1-s_2$.
 
why are the integral of both cos and sin x from 0 to 2 pi is zero
 
12:16 AM
Now, theoretically, once you have $s_1$ and $s_2$, you can use those to find $p$, $q$, and $r$, using an additional cube root or two. I don't quite remember how.
But this is the start of one way of solving the cubic.
 
doesnt the sign function preserve the multiplication of permutations?
i.e. $\sgn(\sigma\tau) = \sgn(\sigma)\sgn(\tau)$?
 
eh you know what i mean i wont bother correcting that LaTeX
 
Fun fact: There is a quadratic equation, and a cubic equation, and a quartic equation (degree 4), but there is no quintic equation!
 
why is that?
isnt it some theorem?
i forgot the name
abel?
ruffle abini?
something like that
 
12:18 AM
Yeah. Abel-Rufinni I think
(spelling?)
 
> ruffle abini
close enough
 
That's if you only allow yourself +, -, times, divide, and the ability to take roots, anyway.
 
sounds like transcendental
 
No, transcendentals are the ones that aren't the roots of any polynomial.
 
i mean
you achieve algebraic numbers with only those operations, right?
 
12:20 AM
Yeah, but not all of them.
Galois later proved that $x^5-x-1$ (I think) doesn't have any roots that can be written in terms of those operations.
So that gives another proof of Abel-Rufini.
 
galois you fucking badass
6
he died in a duel right?
 
Note that Abel's theorem still leaves open the possibility that every specific quintic has roots that can be written in terms of those operations; he only proved that there's no one equation that works for all of them.
So what Galois proved was stronger.
Yeah @ZachHauk
 
why is 5 so important?
is it some beautiful 5-ness of the universe?
 
it's just big enough
 
It turns out it has to do with group theory. Every polynomial has what's called a "Galois group"; Galois proved that a polynomial has solvable roots if and only if the Galois group has a certain property
(Groups with that property are called "solvable groups")
 
12:24 AM
i think ive heard of that
 
(aka "soluble groups"; soluble is the British term)
 
but it had to do with like a chain of subgroups
it was weird i dont remember it
 
Quintics have Galois groups that are "big enough" not to be solvable
Yeah, it does @ZachHauk
 
so
all the other higher degree monics
have no general equation either?
 
Correct.
 
12:26 AM
guys i got a question , why is the integral of sin x and cos x equal to zero in the intervall from 0 to pi ?
one is odd and other is even
 
@KasmirKhaan Look at the graph
 
what do you mean?
 
Half of the area is above the x axis
Oh
Wait
0 to pi?
 
There are no sextic or septic equations @ZachHauk
 
0 to 2pi
 
12:26 AM
Only degrees one through four.
@KasmirKhaan Again, look at a graph
 
@KasmirKhaan sine and cosine are
whats it called
 
It's the area under the curve
 
@KasmirKhaan If you look at the graph, the area under the curve is split in half by the x-axis.
 
Periodic? @ZachHauk
 
Half is negative area, half is positive
 
12:27 AM
whatever, it has the property that $\sin(x+2\pi) = \sin(x)$
yeah periodic
and so
with the fundamental theorem of calculus
 
but how does that formula work with even and odd?
 
It's unrelated to even and odd
 
youre taking $f(x+2\pi) - f(x)$, and since it's periodic with period $2\pi$, its always 0
anyways sorry akiva, it was nice discussing the polynomial stuff but i need to do this stupid blog post
 
Well, $\int_{-\pi}^\pi\sin(x)dx=0$ follows from it being odd
 
because i want to at least do a practice set tonight so that i dont bomb it tomorrow
 
12:29 AM
Quick question: does someone know a good way to describe a line in the complex plane? (i.e. I have a problem statement that says "If f maps a domain D to a portion of a line," and I want to express that symbolically. I could say f'(z) = k, where k is a complex constant, but I want to make sure that makes sense.)
 
That's different limits, though
 
okay thanks @apnorton @AkivaWeinberger
 
Doesn't matter, since it's periodic
@apnorton The line between $w$ and $z$ is the set of all points of the form $w(1-t)+zt$ for real $t$
 
@apnorton what, something like $\Re(z) + \Im(z) = 1$?
 
(Try setting $t=0,1,\frac12$)
 
12:30 AM
cuz youre basically just taking $\Re(z) = x$ and $\Im(z) = y$
and then you have the line $x + y = 1$
 
I think it's a complex-valued line @ZachHauk
 
what do you mean?
you're taking $z$
 
I was going to try something like that @AkivaWeinberger; I was just wondering if there was a nicer formulation. :P
 
and taking its first component as an $x$ coordinate
and the second as a $y$ coordinate
 
Oh. Hm.
I see what you're saying now
 
12:31 AM
@apnorton Well, you could solve for $t$, and set it equal to its complement or something
 
i.e. $\Re(z)$ is the distance along the real axis to $z$
 
ok
I'll work with that for a bit...
:)
Thanks!!
 
np
blog post time
thanks for talking akivaaaaa
 
@apnorton Wait, I don't think what I said makes sense.
No problem. Bye!
 
12:44 AM
Hi
0
Q: Find $ \max \Im( W(- exp(x)) exp(-x) ) $ for real $x$.

mickDefine the reals $x,y$ as $$ y = \max \Im ( W ( - exp(x)) exp(-x) ) $$ Where $W$ is the standard Lambert W function and $\Im$ means the imaginary part. How to find $x$ and $y$ ? Closed forms ( allowing integrals , sums etc ) , contour integrals , numerical methods ?? I know how to express th...

 
 
1 hour later…
1:46 AM
hello, I am an undergraduate Mathematics student with a weak foundation in all things math... and I would like some advice. Currently I study online because I am in the military and it is not possible for me to learn in a traditional environment. I am doing ok in Calculus 1, > 90% average, but that is more because of all the online tools available to help me solve problems. Does anyone have any advice I could utilize to shore up my weak areas?
 
2:02 AM
Why do certain things work?
 
@Axoren as opposed to other things not working?
 
Nah, that's too ambitious.
Essentially, why does $\exists x, \text{Works}(x)$?
 
@Axoren I have no idea, lol
 
Well you assume axioms that some things work, and then find out some more things follow from that
 
@PaulPlummer You mean $\exists x, (\text{Works}(x) \to \exists y, x \neq y \land \text{Works}(y))$?
I can't see how you can be so sure.
What if there's only one thing in the whole universe which actually works?
 
2:17 AM
Maybe I misinterpreted what you meant by Works
 
@PaulPlummer I'm being rather vague intentionally.
 
so currently I am using Kahn academy and Symbolab to get problems to solve... should I buy a Calculus problem book?
 
@Axoren a hallmark of a bad philosophy discussion
 
@PaulPlummer Or of the best trolling of a philosopher.
 
Here is a fun comic
@BalarkaSen @SteamyRoot I saw your discussion about curves disconnecting surfaces. If you allow intersection, two simple closed essential curves can cut your surfaces into simply connected pieces. (It is a cute exercise if you start from knowing that the curve graph associated to a genus $g>1$ surface is unbounded)
 
2:27 AM
@PaulPlummer That man cheated at Candyland
What an absolute scumbag.
 
I want to buy CandyLand now
 
I just thought of an amazing way to play candyland.
Think of it like bullshit
But you have to lie about which card you get
If someone calls you out and they're wrong, you go back twice the amount you moved (2 reds forward? two reds back instead). If they're right, you go back twice the amount you moved.
 
Hey @arctictern
 
hey
 
I found this book on profinite groups
 
2:36 AM
Ribet?
 
by Klopsch, Nikolov and Voll
Its very good so far
 
cool
 
It covers Zeta functions towards the ends
hopefull by this week I can finish it
It has some very good references as well
For example there is a paper by Liebeck talking about the diamater of finite p-groups
the diamater being the minimal number of generators or sometthing like that
Its a LMS book
 
3:31 AM
hey @arctictern
 
hey
 
would you like to check a proof in commutative algebra ?
 
doubtful
 
Let K be a field and let V be a vector space over K. Define the product of two elements in $R = K \times V$ by $(a_1,v_1)(a_2,v_2) = (a_1 a_2, a_1v_2 + a_2v_1)$ where $a_1,a_2 \in K$ and $v_1,v_2$ in K. define sum component wise.
Prove R is a local ring. Prove that R has only one prime ideal : its unique maximal ideal.
So I proved that the ideals of R correspond to vector subspace.
vector subspaces.
that is it is of the form $\{0\}\times H$ for H vector subspace of V.
Then I claim $\{0\} \times V$ is maximal
 
so far good
 
3:36 AM
Elements in the complement of $\{0\} \times V$ are of the form $(a,v)$ where $a \neq 0$ and $v \in V$. They are units, since $(a,v) (-a^{-2}v) = (aa^{-1},-a^{-1}v + a^{-1}v) = (1,0)$. Thus $(a,v)$ is a unit. Then $\{0\} \times V$ is unique maximal ideal. Thus R is local.
 
@MikeMiller When you work in geometry/topology do you just get used to "tensor/forms" language, and how to translate geometric ideas into this language. As an example I have been reading a bit about Teichmuller theory, and measured foliations and it appears an important thing to associate with a measured foliation (you can go back an forth) is the quadratic differential.
Basically I have a hard time ever thinking I would come up with something like, and after spending some time with it, and translating and looking what is happening in local coordinates is it starting to make sense. Is there some sort of trick on how to interpret and come up with these sorts of things? (I am guessing you just have to get used to the language)
 
Suppose $I_p$ is a prime ideal. Let $(0,v)$ be arbitrarily element in $\{0\}\times V$. Then, $(0,v) (0,v) = (0,0) \in I_p$ Thus $(0,v) \in I_p$ which means $I_p = \{0\} \times V$. Thus has only one prime ideal its unique maximal ideal
good @arctictern ?
 
@Adeek you mean (a,v) (1/a,-v/a) = (1,0)?
otherwise yes
 
oh yeah
okay cool
 
essentially we are forming an associative algebra out of V by adjoining scalar units of an identity element and stipulating every product of vectors is zero
 
3:40 AM
oh cool @arctictern
oh wait $(a,v)(1/a,-v/a) = (1,-v + 1/a * v)$ Yeah that doesn't work
it should be $(a,v)(a^{-1},-a^{-2}v)$
Since $(a,v)(a^{-1},-a^{-2}v) = (1,-a^{-1}v + a^{-1}v = (1,a^{-1}(-v + v)) = (1,0)$.
 
sorry, I simplified (a,-v)/a^2 incorrectly
(I used (a+v)(a-v)=a^2-v^2=a^2 to get this.)
 
oh
@arctictern I think I will try to solve michael atiyah this semester to get extra practice.
Many of the materials seem to be in the problem set actually
 
@PaulPlummer I got interested in that at one point, though not for very long.
 
hi @PaulPlummer
 
Mostly because I couldn't figure out what to do with it for my purposes.
 
4:01 AM
Hrllo @Adeek
I have been learning some stuff about mapping class groups recently, so that is how it is coming up for me @Semiclassical
 
Ah.
For me it was in the context of integrals like $\int \sqrt{p(x)}\,dx$
If $p(x)$ is polynomial that's a hyperelliptic curve, but you could also have it be something not nearly so nice.
 
Hmm how was teichmuller theory coming up?
 
Lemme find a reference, it's been a while
This one, I guess, though I don't know how readable it is: pdfs.semanticscholar.org/7120/…
In the first few pages he gives the context, and then after that reformulates in terms of quadratic differentials.
 
4:23 AM
That is neat
 
4:37 AM
Yeah. Alas, I never was really able to do anything with it.
There's also a linkage to cluster algebras somehow but damned if I ever understood it.
 
0
Q: A question on bounded variation and sum of absolute values at points of extrema.

Rajesh DachirajuI have a function $f$ defined on $(-a,a)$ as $f(x) = 1$ when $x = 0$ and $0$ elsewhere. There is a sequence of smooth functions $\{f_n\}$ defined on $(-a,a)$, such that $f_n\to f$ pointwise. Also $V(f_n)\to V(f) = 2$ where $V(f)$ is the variation of function $f$ in the inetrval $(-a,a)$. Lets de...

I guess its a classic in real analysis
 
5:13 AM
The argument for the rank theorem on manifolds is really nice
 
 
3 hours later…
8:03 AM
Hey everyone
 
 
1 hour later…
9:10 AM
@MikeMiller Do you know if the complement of the 4-ball in $S^2 \times S^2$ is unique up to isotopy?
 
 
2 hours later…
11:03 AM
@PaulPlummer Is this related to how a foliation is associated with a differential form?
I meant the other way around.
 
in The Periodic Table, 2 hours ago, by DHMO
in the hydration of ethene, why is H3PO4 used instead of H2SO4?
@BalarkaSen
 
@DHMO H2SO4 has the dehydrating property, right? Isn't that undesirable?
 
@BalarkaSen I thought H3PO4 also has
 
Maybe not as much as H2SO4 does? I don't actually remember the hydration of ethene.
As in, not the mechanism
 
11:25 AM
Does anyone know whether matrix w can be calculated for arbitrary x,y matrices if y_{l,a} = \sum_{k} x_{a,k}w_{l,k}
 
@DHMO H2SO4 is a strong oxidizer.
H3PO4 isn't.
 
11:42 AM
$$
\det M-\operatorname{tr}M\leq 1
$$
What do we call to this inequality^?
 
@Ramanujan That doesn't seem correct. Consider a square identity matrix of order 5. Det M=1 but trace =5
 
@anonymous Let M be a 3×3 real matrix with detM>0.
 
Oh, wait 1-5<=1 is true
Interesting
@Ramanujan Where did you find the formula?
I am not sure if it is correct
28
A: The relation between trace and determinant of a matrix

Rodrigo de AzevedoThe trace of $\mathrm M$ is the directional derivative of the determinant in the direction of $\mathrm M$ at $\mathrm I_n$, i.e., $$\det (\mathrm I_n + h \mathrm M) = 1 + h \, \mbox{tr} (\mathrm M) + O (h^2)$$ In Tao's words, "near the identity, the determinant behaves like the trace" [0]. More...

 
Look at a diagonal 3x3 matrix with 2's along the diagonal.
(2*2*2) - (2 + 2 + 2) = 2; not smaller than 1
 
@BalarkaSen good example
 
11:55 AM
Thanks @BalarkaSen
Actually this math.stackexchange.com/questions/2133201/… was question of someone else
 
You have an additional assumption of M not being symmetric there
 
I see
 
Otherwise there are a buckload of examples; symmetric matrices are diagonalizable so just pick eigenvalues d_1, ..., d_n large enough, so (d_1 ... d_n) - (d_1 + ... + d_n) will easily be bigger than 1
 
@BalarkaSen Det= ∣2I∣ but what method you used?
 
No, it's 2^3*det(I) = 2^3. Determinant of a diagonal matrix is product of the diagonal elements... ?
I don't see what you mean by "method"
 
12:02 PM
Yes,it is 8 ,how you got 2?
 
What? Where did I write it was 2?
The difference of the determinant and the trace is 2. The determinant is 8 and the trace is 6.
Anyway, counterexample to the question. [2, 0, 0;1, 2, 0;0, 0, 2] - the determinant once again is 8 and the trace is once again 6. The matrix is clearly not symmetric.
Just adding a nontrivial element to a single slot doesn't change the story yet makes things asymmetric.
 
12:15 PM
Hi chat
 
Yo @Alessandro
Are you still a full time physicist?
 
I don't know yet
The exam wasn't that great, I messed up here and there, but I should have passed it, which means I'll have an oral exam on Thursday
I'll get the results in the afternoon
 
Got it
I am sure you'll pass, don't worry about it too much
 
0
Q: Find $ \max \Im( W(- exp(x)) exp(-x) ) $ for real $x$.

mickDefine the reals $x,y$ as $$ y = \max \Im ( W ( - exp(x)) exp(-x) ) $$ Where $W$ is the standard Lambert W function and $\Im$ means the imaginary part. How to find $x$ and $y$ ? Closed forms ( allowing integrals , sums etc ) , contour integrals , numerical methods ?? I know how to express th...

 
@DanielFischer any opinion on Alles Mathematik: Von Pythagoras zu Big Data from Aigner ? I want to buy it as a gift to a German teenager with olympic background
 
12:38 PM
@anonymous therefore?
 
@DHMO h2so4 will oxidize ethene to alcohol instead of dehydrating
 
@anonymous alcohol is what i want
 
@DHMO but you won't get alcohol directly
first an addition product is formed
 
> Ethene is passed into concentrated sulphuric acid to make ethyl hydrogensulphate (as above). The product is diluted with water and then distilled.

The water reacts with the ethyl hydrogensulphate to produce ethanol which distils off.
 
@DHMO yes if you add some water later then you can get alcohol
 
12:41 PM
@anonymous alright
 
or you could you diluted h2so4
@DHMO
 
@anonymous source?
 
9
Q: Why concentrated sulfuric acid for dehydration and dilute for hydration?

Joshua LinSo for dehydration of ethanol, we use concentrated sulfuric acid, like this: but for hydration of ethylene, we use dilute sulfuric acid, like this: so why is one concentrated, and one dilute? For that matter, how does the sulfuric acid even help in the first place? Thanks.

 
thanks
 
I have never actually heard of this reaction. The way I convert ethene to ethanol is by reducing it first to CH3-CH2-Br, eg, then add some liquid KOH
 
12:50 PM
O.O
 
@LeGrandDODOM Je ne le connais pas. Aigner sounds promising, though.
 
@DHMO Solve the integration $$\int{\frac{1}{(1+x^2)^{\frac{3}{2}}}} dx$$ in the shortest method possible.
 
@anonymous x=tan theta
 
@DHMO Naah
It can be solved mentally
 
@anonymous I can do it mentally
 
12:57 PM
Try without any substitution
 
??
how?
 
Just take $x^2$ common out from denominator and you get the derivative of the denominator in numerator :)
It is definitely faster than putting $x=\tan(\theta)$, even though that is also correct!
 
I see
 
I'm studying Leibnitz integrals today :)
 
nice
 
1:04 PM
@DHMO Can you solve this ^ ? It's interesting
 
@anonymous the latter part is $\displaystyle n \int_0^1 \frac 1 {1+\tan x} \ \mathrm dx$
 
@DHMO What do you do with the n ?
That n tends to infinity
 
@anonymous incorporate with the $\tan^{-1}\dfrac1n$
 
@BalarkaSen It is related, I am not sure of all the benefits and downsides, but I guess the 1-forms induces local orientations which sometimes you don't want
 
@DHMO Great :).....Ahh, you seem to be good at definite integrals.I will look for better problems for you :)
 
1:08 PM
I have an integral for DHMO
$$\int_0^\infty\frac{x^s}{e^x-1}\ dx$$
 
@SimplyBeautifulArt interesting
 
@PaulPlummer I see. I don't actually know what a measured foliation is
 
Of course, $Re(s)>0$
 
@SimplyBeautifulArt does this involve contour integral again?
 
1:13 PM
that's interesting
 
@DHMO you aren't very good at the contour integrals?
 
I don't have much idea
@SimplyBeautifulArt not really
 
:P
Would you like a hint?
 
sure
 
$$\frac1{1-x}=1+x+\dots$$
 
1:15 PM
...
 
:-)
I assure you, the end result is nice
:O
 
Hi chat
 
Only for $|x|<1$. $$\frac1{1-x}=1+x+\dots$$
o/
 
@BalarkaSen The idea is pretty simple, it decomposing you surface into lines, and singular points (which you need for surfaces of genus >1) and you use these curves as a ruler. You can give a transverse measure in terms of a 1-form, basically it measures how far you have gone in horizontal or vertical direction
For quadratic differentials is that they give a vertical and horizontal foliation, and there isn't an orientation on anything
 
@PaulPlummer Ah, I see. And after you remove those singular points, the resulting thing should be a foliation of the punctured surface, yes?
 
1:28 PM
@SimplyBeautifulArt What is $s$ in $x^s$ ?
 
I am not sure if I understand the transverse measure thing tho
 
17 mins ago, by Simply Beautiful Art
Of course, $Re(s)>0$
 
@SimplyBeautifulArt Real part is greater than 0. What about imaginary part?
Is s a real number ?
 
Nope, $s\in\mathbb C$
 
1:30 PM
Okay, thanks
 
But once you solve the integral, I'd like the solution for $s=1$.
 
If you look locally, you see a bit of plane with a bunch of horizontal lines, and if you had a curve, transverse to the horizontal lines, the way you would measure the length is measure how far the horizontal lines are from the endpoints of the curve. That is is is basically $|dy|$ or $|dx|$ @BalarkaSen
Anyway I should get going, need to do some stuff. It is sort of helpful for me to attempt to explain this stuff @BalarkaSen
 
@PaulPlummer Hmm, I see
Thanks for the explanation, see ya
 
@BalarkaSen bye bye
 
1:44 PM
@Balarka do you have a moment to discuss a thing?
 
Sure, fire away
 
My physics professor defines a 1-form $\Theta=\sum\Theta_\alpha dx^\alpha$ and then calculates $d\Theta=\frac12(\frac{\partial \theta\alpha}{\partial x^\beta}-\frac{\partial\theta_\beta}{\partial x^\alpha})(dx^\beta\otimes dx^\alpha)$ (summations over alpha and beta are implied where necessary), I don't understand why he gets a tensor product there rather than an exterior one though
 
@DHMO If $$\phi(x)=\cos(x)-\int_0^x(x-t)\phi(t)dt$$ then what is the value of $\phi(x)+\phi''(x)$ ? OPTIONS: (a) sin(x) (b) -sin(x) (c) cos(x) (d) -cos(x)
 
@Alessandro Very strange; that should indeed be an exterior product. How did he define the exterior derivative? It's noteworthy that tensor product, antisymmetrized, is the exterior product
I suppose there is some weird physics convention going on there
I also don't like the factor of $1/2$.
 
@anonymous what the hell man
 
1:55 PM
@DHMO Why, is the question wrong?
 
no, it's so complicated
 
It sounds like integration by part
 
@DHMO I was expecting a reply like "Damn, that's so easy" :P
LOL XD
It isn't very complicated
Use Leibniz
 
@BalarkaSen that's the problem, he didn't define it, he was extremely handwavy, even for a physicist. He did talk about antisymmetrizing things though, can you elaborate on that?
 
"He was extremely handwavy, even for a physicist."
6
 
1:59 PM
@anonymous I think you use the multivariable chain rule, if you've learned that
 
@Alessandro For sure. The thing is that instead of looking at antisymmetric/alternating multilinear maps $V \times V \times \cdots \times V \to \Bbb R$, you could just look at multilinear maps (with no other convention). The space of such objects form a vector space, denoted as $\bigotimes^k V^*$, or $T^k V^*$, known as the "tensor algebra".
 
but I'm not sure
 

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