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10:01 AM
@PyGamer0 ask yourself if (ax+b)(cx+d) can define any ex^2+fx+g
a to g are all element of real number and i am pretty sure you are thinking about it
the answer is yes so thank me
lol
 
lmao
 
was it helpful
though
 
i didnt understand how to factorise ax² + bx + c if b² - 4ac is not a perfect square
 
sorry misinterpreted the question
 
and while i am here, what is inner product?
 
10:05 AM
(x+u)(x+v)
 
@MethNoob can you get $x^2+1$?
2
 
@mohan10216 thanks
 
acx^2+adx+bcx+bd=acx^2+(ad+bc)x+bd so ac=1 ad+bc=0 bd=1 so 1=-1
@robjohn trivially nien
nien nien
@PyGamer0 no
thanks to angry square counter example
 
Using this idea, I think we can even get a sequence which has $\mathbb Q$ as the set of all its limit points.
Let $q_i$'s be an enumeration of all the rationals (this is possible due to countability of the rationals). Then the sequence: $q_1, q_1,q_2,q_1,q_2,q_3,...$ has the set of all limit points as $\mathbb Q$.
 
10:18 AM
@Koro $q_{b_k}$ where $q_k$ is an enumeration of the rationals (leaving off the $\frac1{r(k)+2}$)
that gives the stuttering naturals.
 
hmm, nope. My reasoning was wrong because if Q is the set of all limit points of such a sequence then Q should have been a closed set in R, which Q is not.
So no such sequence should exist, I think.
 
Oh, I didn't realize you wanted the limit points to be just $\mathbb{Q}$. every point of $\mathbb{Q}$ is a limit point, but there are others.
 
If the set of limit points of a sequence contains $\mathbb Q$ then the set is $\mathbb R$.
So we're talking a sequence that has $\mathbb R$ as its set of all its limits points.
 
11:08 AM
@mohan10216 About books, there's plenty. Popular choice is Munkres
Informal definition of topology? Why would you want that
 
11:19 AM
What is the Topology?
Control
 
 
1 hour later…
12:39 PM
@Jakobian You may enjoy aleph.se/andart/archives/2014/02/torusearth.html Anders is a SE member, and posts regularly on the Physics & Astronomy stacks.
 
1:34 PM
@Jakobian: I need one to understand the topic, I don't get these formal definitions...I need something in plain english.
Thanks for the book suggestion though.
 
@copper.hat thanks. I am imprecise when I state or ask things here. I have to fix that.
 
1:51 PM
@Koro $r\!\left(\frac{n^2+n}2\right)=\left\lfloor\frac{-1+\sqrt{1+4n^2+4n}}2\right\rfloor=n$
 
I just realized Cauchy's theorem in CA is essentially Stoke's theorem.
 
@love_sodam in most other states, too
 
even in most countries
 
As time goes by, I feel the greatness of Stoke's theorem.
 
2:01 PM
That guitar.
 
Control
 
Chaos
 
I bet is a strato :P
If you are bored: Find all the polynomials with real coefficients such that $p(x)+p(y)+p(z)+p(x+y+z)=p(x+y)+p(y+z)+p(z+x)$
Its from yesterday's NMO from spain (national mathematical olympiad)
 
@mohan10216 Well, the book is solid I guess, but you could look at other authors too, it's not that they're bad either.
 
$x,y,z \in \Bbb R$
 
2:07 PM
as for explaining what topology is in plain English, well, I can't do that, but I can explain the motivation (at least what I think the motivation is) behind the definition
 
Its always cool reading how someone motivates a math definition :P
 
@Odestheory12 this might help a little bit : math.stackexchange.com/questions/3997996/…
 
@Odestheory12 it's pretty easy to show that $p''(x)=c$ and that $p(0)=0$
 
So I think to give motivation for topology, you need to first look at metric spaces and open balls.
We say that two metric spaces are equivalent if open balls from one space look like (are made up from) open balls from the other space
 
@robjohn Differentiating is cheating
:-P
 
2:13 PM
And this condition can be extended even further to say that if we take a metric space, and consider unions of all the open balls in it, then this family of subsets, which we call topology, for both of the metric spaces they are equal
 
@Odestheory12 I am only partially differentiating ;-)
 
Now, looking at open balls, they form a family which we can call a basis. From my little experience, it's very useful to define topology of a space using a basis rather than to give it directly
 
@DanielAdams That's useful. I would recommend munkres tho.
 
So from this perspective, topology is simply something which can be generated by a basis
 
@robjohn if $Q(x) = p(x+z)-p(x)-p(z)$ then $Q(x+y) = Q(x)+Q(y)$
That was my solution (the main point)
 
2:17 PM
@Odestheory12 Okay. set $x=y=z=0$ and we get that $p(0)=0$. Then set $z=-y$...
 
maybe I missed what everyone was talking about :0 I just thought we were motivating topology as a subject of study.
 
@DanielAdams That's why you have to follow the arrows.
 
I'm motivating it by showing how it generalizes the approach for metric spaces
 
@robjohn Yeah, that's handy aswell. Also you can note that if $3p(x)+p(3x)=3p(2x)$ then equating the $n$-power terms we have $3+3^n=3\cdot 2^n$ which only has solutions for $n=1$ and $n=2$
 
2:21 PM
yeah, it all boils down to $p(x)=ax$
 
What are the latest developments concerning the definition of transcendentals if any?
 
@AMDG non-algebraic
 
Shame. I was hoping for something a bit more substantial, but fair enough.
I think it would be much easier to prove whether or not a number is transcendental if we can formulate it into a conjunction of two predicates A and B, where A is $\text{irrational}$ and B is some other predicate such that $\text{transcendental} := A\land B$.
 
@PM2Ring thanks, that looks great!
 
Perhaps something simpler than having to rely on domains of integration as well such as limits of roots or something.
 
2:25 PM
@PM2Ring sort of like a ringworld is unstable?
 
@robjohn Ah, thank you. That's convenient.
So is "algebraically independent" analogous to coprimality of integers but with regards to algebraic nature?
 
I'd say it's like
 
@PM2Ring a sphereworld is astable
 
we have rational numbers, and polynomials over those, and it's a bit like variables over rational numbers
So if say, $x, y\in \mathbb{R}$ are algebraically independent over $\mathbb{Q}$, then it basically means that expressions including $x, y$ and rational numbers act like polynomials in two variables over rational numbers.
 
Not quite sure I fully understand, but ok.
This stuff is way beyond my paygrade
 
2:36 PM
When are two polynomials equal? When they have equal coefficients. Here it's the same
 
That moment when your search for optimal algorithmic approximations leads you into the rabbit hole that is mathematics by necessity.
@Jakobian Are x and y the term coefficients or are they just the domains of a polynomial?
 
x and y are some numbers
 
So domains
 
um... well, real numbers
no, fixed real numbers
not variables
 
Oh, constants.
 
2:39 PM
yes, like $\pi$
 
I see
 
Weierstrass was such a good mathematician. The more deep I study the more results of him I see.
 
$\pi$ being transcendental means like, it's algebraically independent over $\mathbb{Q}$
 
Personally, I'm a fan of Leibniz, Riemann, and Euler.
 
I love leibniz but he confused me a lot with the concept of differential (leibniz notation) :P
 
2:41 PM
and that basically means that any expression of the form $a_n\pi^n+...+a_0$ with $a_i$ rational numbers acts exactly like a polynomial over the rational numbers in the way that two are equal iff they have equal coefficients
so here $\pi$ is kind of like a variable of a polynomial, where by polynomial I mean an abstract expression of the form $a_nx^n+...+a_0$ and not a function
 
Right, so just a termwise coefficient in a polynomial of order $n$.
 
termwise coefficient?
 
I don't know if it has a formal name.
It probably should and most likely does.
Considering that polynomials have been around for centuries...
 
well, I don't really know what that would mean
 
That pi is a termwise coefficient I intend to state that pi is a coefficient on each term of a sum which gives us a polynomial of order n.
 
2:45 PM
I'd just say variable
 
$\sum_i a_i {\pi}^{j_i}$
 
@Jakobian No worries. :) Here's a torus world post by Anders physics.stackexchange.com/a/429034/123208
@robjohn Pretty much. Anders discusses various orbits around a torus on his site & in some Physic.SE posts. Sure, a full Dyson shell is astable, so you just need some (relatively) minor propulsion to compensate for drift, unlike a Ringworld, which has a nasty tendency to collide with its star. ;) On a related note, with a partial shell, you can make a Shkadov thruster. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_engine It's not very fast, but it can travel a fair distance over the lifetime of a star.
 
3:09 PM
@AMDG A couple of weeks ago I mentioned Carlson's modified AGM algorithm for the natural log. You asked if it works with a complex arg, but I somehow missed that question at the time. Yes, it does work on complex args, assuming your sqrt algorithm handles complex args, but it gets a bit sluggish near the branch cut.
In the usual convention, both sqrt & log have a branch cut on the negative real axis. For computation purposes, that's not actually a problem because you can just negate the arg & transform the result.
 
Yeah, I found Carlson's modified AGM algorithm actually. It can use division but doesn't necessarily require it.
Thanks.
I still have yet to see how well my approximation of the logarithm and arctan are for by integrating the infinite sum I have.
Who knows. Depending on circumstances, it could be pretty convenient. I also found a way to speed up convergence for it as well, but it seems to require more division capacity, so you could get pretty fast convergence if you can divide integers in $[0, 2^n]$. I found a solution that works just fine for floored quotients using n=8.
You can add an arbitrary constant to the $f_{lp2}(x)$ function to speed up convergence. Using 8 got me to just beyond 64-bit precision using only 6 terms of the series.
$f_{lp2}(x)$ is one of a family of functions which satisfies $2^{f_{lp2}(x)} \geq y$ so adding a constant for which this inequality still holds preserves its validity.
The original design is to find the smallest power of two when multiplied by a coefficient less than y yields a number that is greater than or equal to y.
The coefficient can effectively be dropped to get the above inequality.
 
3:37 PM
@PM2Ring Do you know of anything analogous to $\int \frac{1}{x} dx = \ln(x)$ for the exponential function? I've found an OK approximation through repeated integration (shown in the desmos link), but I'm hoping to find something whereby I can just convert the sum I found into a function of the exponential.
(Without halley's method)
 
@AMDG Well, the exponential function is its own integral, so you can't make much progress in that direction. ;) There's a reasonably fast simple algorithm for computing e to arbitrary precision, using its representation in factorial base: e=2.1111... but I guess that's not much use for arbitrary powers of e.
 
Yeah that's the issue with the exponential function, however, there are functions of the exponential which give something other than a constant in the derivative/antiderivative, e.g. $\operatorname{Ei}(x)$.
That's also the basis for the repeated integration approximation as well.
Since the exponential is its own derivative and antiderivative.
 
Carlson's log is so fast that it's been used to calculate exp(x) via Newton's method, but I haven't played with that much. And obviously if you don't want to use Halley's method, you're even less likely to want to use Newton's.
 
Correct. And the best I can get with SIMD and the aid of pmaddwd is 18c for 64-bit precision of exp(x) about x=1.
So that's the time the beat.
 
I don't know what 18c means.
 
3:47 PM
18 cycles, Ryzen Family 17h.
And that's just using the taylor expansion.
 
I've written assembler code for 3 different architectures, but I haven't done it for years, and never on x86 machines.
 
Ok
 
I wonder what P. J. Plauger used for exp(x) in his Standard C library... Give me a minute.
 
pmaddwd is a SIMD instruction available in the MMX subset of x86 for a number of processors. iirc the first version came out in around 2011. It computes $ax + ay$ on 16-bit operands and gives 32-bit operands as an output. SSE extends this to allow for larger word sizes like 32 and 64 bits.
While you do that, I'm going to finish my redstone elevator design.
 
4:10 PM
Ok. He uses the identity $\exp(x) = 2^(x/\ln(2))$. With suitable range reduction, that resolves to $2^(n+f)$, for some integer n, and -0.5 <= f <= 0.5. The $2^n$ part is a simple bitshift. He does the $2^f$ part with a ratio of polynomials that he got from Cody & Waite ( a standard reference). It might be a Padé approximation, I guess.
 
@PM2Ring probably Padé approximation
ah, I see you already mentioned that.
most faster computations are Padé or CORDIC
 
An identity of $e^x$ using $\ln(x)$ in closed form when
 
His poly ratio is 2nd degree in the numerator, and 3rd degree in the denominator. That's for standard IEEE-754 53 bit doubles.
 
Yeah, I already have a pade approximation for 2^x that works pretty well using range reduction. It's cell 3 in desmos.com/calculator/vij21vwfxj
I'm just looking to compute using even cheaper approximation.
At least in terms of what hardware can do these days.
 
I assume you'd prefer to avoid division. ;) I wonder what degree a Minimax poly needs for 2^x over [-0.5, 0.5]...
 
4:17 PM
Well we can compute cheap divides now.
Division all day any day :D
That was the whole point of the last six months of searching...
 
In that case, the Padé may be cheaper than a Minimax or Chebyshev. Padé almost always saves at least 1 degree compared to a poly.
 
I mean it opens up a whole world of approximations previously unusable.
Nested fractions... pade approximations... etc.
Yeah pade is ya boi when it comes to good rational approximations I've found, but lagrange surprisingly has come in clutch at least once for a low-precision logarithm approximation.
 
4:34 PM
https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/4364501/is-a-clopen-set-a-paraconsistent-object
I feel like this answer doesn't really answer anything, and the downvotes are a bit unfair here
 
@robjohn @PM2Ring what about a blanet?
 
parens around the URL
 
4:51 PM
In finding $n$th term for $1,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,...$ I tried to proceed as follows:
Suppose that $m$th term of the sequence is $n$ then, the following inequality holds:
$1+2+...+n\le m$ i.e., $m\ge \frac{n(n+1)}2$.
Hi Leslie!
In fact, stronger inequality would be: $\frac{n(n+1)}2+n\le m$
But not sure how to get an upper bound for $m$.
in order to get this
3 hours ago, by robjohn
@Koro $r\!\left(\frac{n^2+n}2\right)=\left\lfloor\frac{-1+\sqrt{1+4n^2+4n}}2\right\rfloor=n$
 
@Koro just plug $k=\frac{n^2+n}2$ into $r(k)=\left\lfloor\frac{-1+\sqrt{1+8k}}2\right\rfloor$
 
we get $n$.
 
so what was the question?
 
we were writing nth term of this sequence $0,0,1,0,1,2,0,1,2,3,0,...$
 
@Koro What about it? The Sphereworld robjohn mentioned is a hollow sphere with a star at the centre. It's astable because of the shell theorem (& Birkhoff's theorem in GR).
 
5:03 PM
@Koro I know that. What are you unsure about?
 
I want to write the nth term (general term) of the sequence from the scratch.
You have shown that it is $a_k:=k-\frac{r(k)^2+r(k)}{2}$
 
8 hours ago, by robjohn
$$
\begin{array}{c|cc}
k&0&1&2&3&4&5&6&7&8&9&10&11&12&13&14\\\hline
r(k)&0&1&1&2&2&2&3&3&3&3&4&4&4&4&4\\\hline
\frac{r(k)^2+r(k)}2&0&1&1&3&3&3&6&6&6&6&10&10&10&10&10
\end{array}
$$
look at $k-\frac{r(k)^2+r(k)}2$; the third row minus the first
 
I am convinced that $a_k$ is the general term. It's just that I'm trying to understand how anyone would come up with that term? Is there an approach? Or was it guessed?
Here, I tried to come up with that systematically.
 
the first group has length $1$, the second group has length $2$, the third group has length $3$, etc
You want to match up the first elements of each group so that subtracting gives $0,1,2,3,\dots$ inside each group
the beginning of the $k^\text{th}$ group is at $\frac{k^2+k}2$
so to find out from the index of the start of a group what group that is, we need to invert $\frac{k^2+k}2$
so we solve $\frac{k^2+k}2=r$ using the quadratic formula
$$
\begin{array}{c|cc}
k&\color{#C00}{0}&\color{#C00}{1}&2&\color{#C00}{3}&4&5&\color{#C00}{6}&7&8&9&\color{#C00}{10}&11&12&13&14\\\hline
r(k)&0&1&1&2&2&2&3&3&3&3&4&4&4&4&4\\\hline
\frac{r(k)^2+r(k)}2&\color{#C00}{0}&\color{#C00}{1}&1&\color{#C00}{3}&3&3&\color{#C00}{6}&6&6&6&\color{#C00}{10}&10&10&10&10
\end{array}
$$
 
Shouldn't that be $\frac{k^2-k}2$ because the first group: 0
second group: 0,1
third group: 0,1,2
etc ?
 
5:17 PM
The first group has length $1$
$\frac{k^2+k}2$ is the index of the beginning of the $k+1^\text{st}$ group
 
If k=2, then the beginning of 2+1st group should start at $(2^2+2)/2$th term that is at 3rd term.
But clearly, the index of the third group begins at 4.
 
@Koro indices start at $0$
 
argh
 
indices are the number of terms preceding (in what I have been writing)
 
@robjohn I see. So $r(k)$ tells us the index of group (and we note that this is different from index of the sequence).
noo, r(k) is the index of starting element of a group.
the method seems very nice espacially the part where inverse is taken but unfortunately I still don't understand it :(
$\frac{k^2+k}{2}$ makes sense as it is the index of first element of a 'group' but I don't understand what $\frac{r(k)^2+r(k)}{2}$ does.
 
6:02 PM
@Koro that gives the beginning index of the group containing the element with index $k$
 
Greetings, Mr. @robjohn.
 
2
Q: Proving that this function all over the positive integer gives us this sequence?

Jotadiolyne DicciFirstly, we have this sequence : $1,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,...$ which is the sequence of integers $1$ to $k$ followed by integers $1$ to $k+1$. We could say a fractal sequence. Secondly, we have this formula : $$a_n=\frac{1}{2}(2n+\lfloor\sqrt{2n}+\frac{1}{2}\rfloor-\lfloor\sqrt {2n}+\frac{1}{2}\rfloo...

Professor Rob, things are starting to make sense now.
 
Hey, @Ted
@Koro they've shifted things to be 1-based there instead of 0-based.
I think
 
yeah, but the idea is same I think. Now, I understand why the difference in $a_k=k\color{red}{-}\frac{r(k)^2+r(k)}2$
But even in that answer, I have one question, which I'll comment there as well, I think: what is $m$? I understand that $m$ is the nth term of the sequence. If so, then I think the first line in the answer is wrong.
We have the sequence: 1,(1,2),(1,2,3),(1,2,3,4),...
Here $2$ starts to appear from the second 'group'.
So clearly if m=2 and n is large then the first inequality in the post is wrong.
Suppose that $n$ is the $m$th term of the sequence. Then the following holds:
$$(1+2+3+...+n)\le m\implies \frac{n(n+1)}2\le m\implies n^2+n\le 2m$$

It follows that $(n+\frac 12)^2\le 2m+\frac 12\implies n\leq \sqrt{2m+\frac 12}-\frac 12$.

But if I choose $n=\left\lfloor \sqrt{2m+\frac 12}-\frac 12 \right\rfloor$, then it doesn't work.
 
6:19 PM
Is it not said that $\frac{m(m+1)}{2} < n \leq \frac{(m+1)(m+2)}{2}$? (that was copied from the first answer)
 
yeah, but what is $m$ here?
The inequality would seem natural if m were "n"th term of the sequence.
But that's not the case as we note that m=2 and n large violate the inequality.
 
@Koro That looks like $m$ is in the $n^\text{th}$ group or something like that
 
Professor Rob: why I keep bringing nth term is m, is because that's how I saw one similar question being solved in a book few days ago.
In that case, the question was to find nth term of 1,2,2,3,3,3,4,4,4,4,... and the nth term came out to be $\lfloor \sqrt{2n}+\frac 12\rfloor$
@Koro So here, I was trying to use just that, without any success. :(
 
$\left\lfloor\sqrt{2n}+\frac12\right\rfloor=\left\lfloor\frac{1+\sqrt{8n}}2\right\rfloor$ Looking familiar, but a bit off.
It increments at a weird place, but maybe okay. It is $1$ greater but $n$ is off by $\frac18$, so the endpoints may be skewed by $1$ as well.
 
6:34 PM
Nice exercise from metric spaces: Let $(X, d)$ be a metric space and $U\subseteq X$ be a non-empty open set. Prove that the map $$f:y\mapsto \max\{r\in (0, 1] : B(y, r)\subseteq U\}$$ is continuous on $U$.
 
@Jakobian so $f$ is the distance to the complement capped by $1$
 
I am struggling with a bit of complex analysis. Is it true that the integral over an arc around a (single) pole of a meromorphic function is iangle of arcresidue at pole ?
oops markdown... i* angle * residue
 
@FliiFe the residue theorem does not cover partial angles. The contour should completely encircle the pole. If the pole is simple, then you can do what you are claiming from an arc that gets infinitely close to the pole.
 
how would I go about proving that ? this is precisely the situation I'm in (radius tends towards 0)
 
@Jakobian what if $y \notin U$?
 
6:45 PM
@copper.hat I would assume $f(y)=0$, but I'm just guessing.
 
just being a pedant this morning
 
I have a pendant, but it's Labradorite.
@FliiFe use the Laurent expansion near the pole.
 
If I have a Borel $\mathbb R^m$-valued measure $\mu$ and a function $f\colon \mathbb R^n\to\mathbb R$. What is might they mean by $\int_{\mathbb R^n}f(x)\,d\|\mu\|(x)$?
 
$\frac{\operatorname*{Res}\limits_{z=a}f}{z-a}+\text{nice terms}$... from there, it is easy to integrate a small arc
 
@robjohn i'm slower than usual this morning, took me a moment
 
6:51 PM
@robjohn Thanks, I'll try that
 
7:11 PM
@copper.hat That wasn't a bad question.
 
7:23 PM
@robjohn I recently dealt with a bizarre PV question where this same sort of thing arose. People seem not to understand that higher-order poles can mess up arcs of circles.
 
@TedShifrin yeah, anything higher than order 1 is baaaad
 
7:40 PM
If they went a bit further, $\mathrm{PV}\int_{-\infty}^\infty\frac{\mathrm{d}x}{x^3}=0$.
 
Well, that's a horse of a different color, but, sure, the general analysis follows from my blah.
It did get a bit heated with Angel, however.
 
So heated that you can guess who downvoted your answer.
 
We each downvoted the other.
I am guilty.
 
This is how wars start.
 
Just ask Putin.
 
7:50 PM
You got chocolate in my peanut butter!
@TedShifrin yeah. Although that can be computed using complex integration, residues is NOT the way to do it.
 
Well, that was my point (if I remember correctly).
 
yep. The fact that the answer comes out correctly might lead some astray
 
Sorta like having the FTC give the right answer even though the hypotheses fail.
 
@copper.hat I defined it on $U$
 
indeed
it is harder to get the idea across sometimes.
 
7:57 PM
@Jakobian Implicitly, but not explicitly. You just said continuous on $U$.
 
I don't see how it matters
 
and I assumed continuity otherwise.
 
A function is not defined just by a rule.
 
lambda calculus begs to differ
 
That sentence is meaningless to me.
 
8:06 PM
You should learn some lambda calculus. It's really fascinating, especially the history.
 
Humans need not calculate formally, one of the good things about being a human
2
 
i never count beyond 1
there are 10 types of people in this world...
 
1 generates all of $\Bbb{Z}$ additively
as a group
 
mathjax alert on aisle 4
 
8:43 PM
@copper.hat who knocked over the LaTeX gloves now?
 
:-)
 
@copper.hat Oh, I see you were referring to $\Bbb[Z}$
 
i was counting on it
 
@TedShifrin It's defined by this rule on $U$, and as for the rest of $X$, it doesn't matter
 
9:02 PM
@CroCo I have a straightforwad resolution. The idea is that non zero vectors $u,v$ lie on the same line iff there is some pair $\alpha,\beta$ not both zero such that $\alpha u_k +\beta v_k = 0$ for each index.
In the robot example, the second pair shows that the two rows are on the same line iff $c_{\theta_1} u_k +s_{\theta_1} v_k = 0$ (in particular, the angle formed by the two points must be in $\theta_1 + \{0,\pi\}$). If you work through the two other pairs, you get the equations $c_{\theta_1} s_{\theta_1+\theta_2} +s_{\theta_1} c_{\theta_1+\theta_2} = 0$ and $c_{\theta_1} s_{\theta_1+\theta_2+\theta_3} +s_{\theta_1} c_{\theta_1+\theta_2+\theta_3} = 0$.
This tells us that the rank drops iff both $\theta_2, \theta_3 \in \theta_1 + \{0,\pi\}$. This is consistent with the corresponding physical configurations.
(Excuse the blast!)
 
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