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9:00 PM
Should be in Totaro's book on group cohomology and algebraic cycles
 
This is also in Hirzebruch's bible on topological methods in algebraic geometry.
 
I will never understand characteristic classes
but that is life
 
@MikeMiller So in this nice case, I have $0\to \Bbb Z^d\to \Bbb Z^d\to 0$ and underneath that, another complex $0\to \Bbb Z\to \Bbb Z\to 0$, and the map from the left $\Bbb Z^d\to \Bbb Z$ just send every $1$-cell to the same $1$-cell. The generator of $H_2(\Delta_d)$ on the top can be taken as $e_1+e_2+\dots+e_n$, which is sent to $de_1$ on the bottom, i.e. $H_2(S^1)\to H^2(S^1)$ is the degree $d$ map
That's great ;D
 
@Balarka: My favorite interpretation (which is not unlike obstruction theory) is the degeneracy loci of appropriate numbers of generic sections.
 
Yeah that's my go-to thing
 
9:05 PM
My favorite proof is via Schubert cycles and transversality mumbo-jumbo.
I've surely sent you those notes.
 
I think you did
I do the dimension count but forget it every time. If $E/M$ is rank $n$, and you take $r <= n$ sections, that gives a section of $E^{\otimes r}$ whose fibers are $M_{r \times n}(\Bbb R)$. Make this section transverse to the substratified space of matrices of rank less than $r$, which is of dimension $(r - 1)(r + n - r + 1) = (r - 1)(n + 1) = rn + r - n - 1$, so codimension $n - r + 1$.
My retardation knows no bounds, can't even get a sign right
 
I can't keep up.
 
I think I got it right last time. The degneracy loci of $r$ generic sections of a rank $n$ bundle is of codimension $n - r + 1$.
 
$r\times n$ matrices of rank $\le r-1$ has codimension $(n-r+1)$. OK, we agree.
 
Whew
So yeah you get a class in $H^{n - r + 1}$. You want to take $k = n - r + 1$, so $r = n - k + 1$ generic sections to get $c_k \in H^k$
 
9:17 PM
We're doing Chern classes, so you double dimensions?
 
Aha, yes.
I am doing Stiefel-Whitney subconciously
 
Never I.
 
Of course :)
I am a simple man. 1-dimensional means $\Bbb R$ to me
 
user462942
Is there an Analysis and PDEs chat room on Math.SE?
 
Analysts and PDE theorists are banned from this chat
They don't belong here
 
user462942
9:20 PM
@BalarkaSen I see :(
 
Only the purest of geometers and the most debauch of algebraists are allowed
 
Joanna, he is kidding.
 
So for $T^2\to T^2$, I can take $S^1\times S^1$ to have the cell structure given by $\Delta_{d_1}\times\Delta_{d_2}$ in Mikes notation. This has $d_1d_2$ $0$-cells, $1$-cells and $2$-cells. The fundamental class in $H_2(T^2)$ is given by $\sum_{i=1,j=1}^{i=d_1,j=d_2}e_i^1\times e_j^1$, where every one of these terms is taken by the cellular map to $e\times e$ (the single $2$-cell in $T^2$ with the other model, i.e. $\Delta_1\times\Delta_1$), so that the map is degree $d_1d_2$
 
user462942
@BalarkaSen I see :(
 
user462942
@TedShifrin :)
 
9:23 PM
on homology as claimed
 
@TedShifrin By the way, do you eat your corn in a polished vertical fashion, or spiraling upward as you go?
When you do eat from a cob that is
 
Spiraling?
 
vertical fashion
 
Why not in cylindrical chunks?
 
Assuming you mean my teeth scrape down the cylinder, rather than around the cylinder
I eat in the $I$ direction, not around the $S^1$ direction of $S^1\times I$
 
9:25 PM
You are classified as an analyst, unsurprisingly
@user574847 You are an algebraist
 
I actually am lol
 
Thank god I'm no algebraist, despite what my coauthor accused me of.
 
That's powerful lol
 
user462942
@BalarkaSen It's a bit late for me to start learning geometry and algebra :( some advice I got was to not start over, but rather to build on what I've done. And the way I am thinking now is to add rigorous Analysis to my work, at the PhD level. Stuff like functional analysis, harmonic analysis, and stick with mathematical modeling.
 
Yeah you're free to ask about anything you like here of course. I was making a bad joke
 
user462942
9:27 PM
@BalarkaSen Oo I see :)
 
I just found out I'm apparently an analyst, send help
 
@Thorgott Gone
 
user462942
@Thorgott haha ...
 
I don't want to spend the rest of my life drawing pictures and pretending they constitute proofs
 
I'm sending some $(\infty, 2)$-categories for you
should be there any minute
 
9:28 PM
can you enrich them
 
you bet
 
Surely you want them to be $(\infty,1)$ lol
 
@BalarkaSen I eat in rows.
I don't do algebra.
The system fails!
 
You eat along $I$ or $S^1$?
Rows isn't really specific up to orientation :P
 
@XanderHenderson As in vertical or circular
 
9:31 PM
@BalarkaSen Like a typewriter, as described on the linked website.
 
I guess you just chose the wrong field
 
Isn't that in the $I$ direction?
 
I was using the language of that website, spirals vs rows.
 
Oh, I misread "I don't do algebra" as "I do algebra", that's what confused me
Probably because I don't read such a horrible sentence often
Next I want to find for $(z_1,\dots,z_n)\mapsto (z_1^{d_1},\dots,z_n^{d_n})$ the induced map on the second homology. Probably I can keep using this model, but now the description of the generators of $H^2(T^2)$ is hard, since the dimension is potentially big, i.e. $n\choose 2$ I think
 
Pft. It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that epsilon.
 
9:36 PM
$Spec(k[\epsilon]/(\epsilon^2))$
 
Let $\epsilon$ be an algebraic variety
 
LOL
 
@BalarkaSen NOOOOOOOOO!
 
let $X$ be a point in $x$, and let $\chi:x\to \mathfrak{X}$ be a map of schemes taking $X$ to $\widetilde{x}\in \mathfrak{X}$.
 
Let $\epsilon$ be a smooth topos
 
9:38 PM
If people took the notation I used above, I'd stop reading their stuff immediately
 
@user574847 My PhD thesis uses the letter "p" in at least five different contexts, with variation in font used to distinguish those contexts.
It makes me cry.
But I wasn't smart enough to do better.
 
As long as it doesn't use notation in very abnormal ways
Like above I made the point capitalised, and the space lower case (but only once lol)
 
the most unusual is the use of $\mathfrak{p}$ for a probability weight; the normal $p$ denotes a prime number
In any event, I gots to go.
 
That's ok then :)
 
For all $\huge{\varepsilon} > 0$, there exists a $\tiny{N} \in \Bbb N$ such that $|x_n - x| < \huge{\varepsilon}$ for all $n > \tiny{N}$
 
9:40 PM
lmao
 
lmao
 
The axiom of foundation implies $\not\exists\epsilon(\epsilon\epsilon\epsilon)$
 
My god
 
@TedShifrin the remann theorem on removable singularity says if $f$ is bounded on $\Omega-\{z_0\}$, then $z_0$ is a removable singularity. I don't see what I need to show
 
Well, you obviously cannot use that theorem. So use your brains. What must you show?
 
9:44 PM
f is bounded
 
$\forall \epsilon \ni \varepsilon \in \Bbb N \forall E > \varepsilon |e_E - e| < \epsilon$
 
We're ignoring that theorem, remember?
You know about Laurent series, I assume.
 
yes
 
So I ask my question again. What must you show?
 
the limit of $f$ exists at z_0
 
9:46 PM
What did I just ask you about a second ago?
 
we can rewrite $f$ at z_0 as a series
 
What kind of series?
 
ok Balarka, I refuse to believe that makes sense
 
a taylor series
 
Wrong.
 
9:50 PM
$\notni$ works right
lol noni
NONI??
$\not{\ni}$
$\not{\ni}\in(\in\in\in)$ is the right formulation of the axiom of foundation
 
$f(z)=a_1+a_2z+a_3z^2+\cdots$
 
I already said wrong. Man, can't you even go back and read what we just said?
 
are you using $\not\in$ for $\not\exists$?
 
@user574847 Oh, wait, I totally messed up the number of cells
 
@Thorgott $\not{\ni}$ rather
 
9:54 PM
right, not better tho
 
I mess up the principle part of Laurent series with taylor series
 
You have to understand what's going on, @Simple. You can't just make it all about symbols and memorization.
5
So what are we trying to do, now?
Salut, @Astyx.
 
Hello
 
rewrite f as a series in a open set around z_0, how can use the condition $|f|<A|z-z_0|^{-1+\epsilon}$
 
10:09 PM
@Simple: Well, of course you have to use that condition. What do you want to show happens with your Laurent series?
 
limit at z_0 exists
 
Tell me what that means with your Laurent series.
 
$\lim\frac{a_{-n}}{(z-z_0)^{n}}+\cdots+a_0+a_1(z-z_0)+\cdots$,
 
So when does the limit exist at $z_0$?
 
(Small comment: You wrote the Laurent series with finitely many negative term. It might as well have infinitely many, because a-priori the singularity at $z_0$ could be essential instead of being a pole - you have to prove none of this happens of course)
 
10:18 PM
Yeah, look how hard I fought to get to where we got to, @Balarka.
I think my days as a teacher may be over.
 
::applause:: no! NO! encore
 
Seems doubtful, given I still learn so much from you :)
 
6 mins ago, by Ted Shifrin
So when does the limit exist at $z_0$?
 
Maybe a smidgeon.
 
not sure
 
10:21 PM
Well, reason backwards from what you're trying to prove, @Simple. (Of course, you need to understand it when you're done.)
 
I'm having trouble working out the induced map $H_2(T^n)\to H_2(T^n)$ still, coming from $(z_1,\dots,z_n)\mapsto (z_1^{d_1},\dots,z_n^{d_n})$. I have worked out (in theory) that there are $d_1\dots d_n{n\choose 2}$ $2$-cells in $\Delta_{d_1}\times\dots\times \Delta_{d_n}$ and ${n\choose 2}$ in $\Delta_1\times\dots\times \Delta_1$.
 
Hint: You want to think about the $T^2$'s inside your $T^n$.
 
I badly need a haircut but I'm not gonna try to do it on my own and can't really get it cut from somewhere outside either
 
So in the even case this is like $T^2\times\dots\times T^2\to T^2\times\dots\times T^2$, and in hte odd case I just get an extra factor of $S^1\to S^1$, right
 
10:24 PM
I know the feeling, @Balarka.
 
Just tie it up.
 
I don't think that's necessary, @user574847. Think about my comment when it comes to one particular generator of $H_2$.
 
I think my hair hasn't been cut in over two months at this point
 
I was hoping I could go for a Peter Scholze hairstyle but it's an outward pointing everywhere nondifferentiable vector field
 
@TedShifrin ok
@BalarkaSen LOL
 
10:25 PM
I'm never getting a metal hairstyle
Y'know the kind you headbang with
@skillpatrol Yeah that's what most people I know are doing
 
I've kept my hair tied up for years, it's not so bad.
 
@TedShifrin Which H^2 should I be thinking about? The one at the base?
 
I don't care.
 
This is easiest to argue with cohomology and cup product but you can think dually... understanding a basis of $H_2(T^n)$ is the first step, as Ted said.
Give me an explicit formula for the cellular basis of $H_k(T^n)$
 
I'm trying lol
 
10:30 PM
No worries, take your time.
 
hi all
0
Q: polynomial equation $ A(x+y_1)(x+y_2)...(x+y_n) + B(x+z_1)(x+z_2)...(x+z_k) = f(x) $ ??

mickConsider given integers $A,B$ such that $AB \neq 0$. Consider a given polynomial $f(x) = a_0 + a_1 x + a_2 x^2 + ... $ of degree $n > 1$ with rational coefficients $a_i$. Now I wonder about solving the diophantine equations of type : $$ A(x+y_1)(x+y_2)...(x+y_n) + B(x+z_1)(x+z_2)...(x+z_k) = f...

any ideas ?
 
The $2$-cells in the base for say $n=3$ are of the form $e^1\times e^1\times e^0, e^1\times e^0\times e^1,e^0\times e^1\times e^1$. All are mapped to zero by the chain map
Err
 
Accurate. Generalize.
 
The $2$-cells in the base for arbitrary $n$ are just choices of two $1$-cells, and still all are mapped to zero
Somehow I feel like this logic gives the wrong first homology
 
How?
 
10:35 PM
i read about multivariable calculus but i still feel confused and ignorant about math with many variables.
Noting specific, just a feeling of " missing something ".
maybe some advice , or is my question too broad and vague ??
 
Oh wait, nvm
Yeah ok
So every boundary map is trivial for this CW structure on $T^n$?
 
Correct.
 
I mean, if we a priori know the homology is free of rank ${n\choose 2}$ and I count my $i$-cells in this CW structure to have ${n\choose 2}$ (which is cheating) but still
ok
But describing the $2$-cells upstairs seems horrible
 
Don't reverse engineer. You know how cellular boundary map works
 
ok
Sure
 
10:38 PM
Let's write this a bit precisely, because what you say is correct but messy to the eyes. $T^n = \prod_{\alpha = 1}^n S^1_\alpha$. Then the cellular chain complex is $C_\bullet(T^n)$, where $C_k(T^n)$ is the free abelian group generated by $k$-cells of the form $\prod_{\alpha \in I} e^1_\alpha \times \prod_{\alpha \notin I} e^0_\alpha$ where $I \subset \{1, \cdots, n\}$, $|I| = k$.
 
Wow
 
The cellular boundary maps are zero (why?) so the cellular chain complex is the homology.
$H_k(T^n) \cong C_k(T^n)$.
 
That deals with downstairs I guess
 
Forget stairs. I am computing $H_k(T^n)$, I have not introduced your map yet.
 
Sure
Well from that argument I can see that $H_k(T^n)\cong \Bbb Z^{{n\choose k}}$
 
10:42 PM
n choose k
 
Yep
 
Not only that but you get a basis. That was the point.
 
That's true
 
It suffices to understand what the map $f = d_1 \times \cdots \times d_n : T^n \to T^n$ does at the level of the this basis.
You know what it does in degree 1; it scales every basis element $e^1_\alpha$ by $d_\alpha$.
What is it going to scale $\prod_{\alpha \in I} e^1_\alpha$, $|I| = k$, by?
Any guesses?
 
scales by $\epsilon$
 
10:45 PM
Thinking 1 sec
$\prod_{\alpha\in I} d_\alpha$?
 
Yes.
 
So the map on $H_2$ is going to be $\Bbb Z^\binom{n}{2} \to \Bbb Z^\binom{n}{2}$, scaling the $\alpha\beta$-th factor by $d_\alpha d_\beta$.
Now you can do whatever algebraic nonsense to prove this.
Formalize it in Lean
 
I'm not sure if that's right
Well
Okay, sorry, that's probably right
But
I have no idea what a generator in the upstairs copy of $\Bbb Z^{n\choose 2}$ looks like, that is, it's some horrible sum of things of the form downstairs?
 
A generator of $H_k(T^n)$ does not depend on the copy of $T^n$, man! It's still a product of cells.
I know why you're confused but I want you to write exactly why you're confused
 
10:50 PM
I'm confused because if I pick a representative in $C_2(T^n_{upstairs})$ for a class in $H^2(T^n)$, then it has some horrible form, not like the form of a downstairs representative
Like for even the circle you get $\sum_{i=1}^d e_i^1\in H^1(\Delta_d)$ for $\Delta_d\to \Delta_1$
 
Again, this does not make sense. What do you distinguish between the upstair copy and the downstair copy? They are all the same $T^n$.
This isn't intergalactic Teichmuller theory
No mutually alien copies
@user574847 Right, so what is the point?
 
Well each of these $e_i^1$ get identified with $e^1$ downstairs, so it's clearly degree $d$
I.e. $p(e_i^1)=e^1$, and it's $\Bbb Z$-linear
 
after reading this post, math.stackexchange.com/questions/1284316/…, I think I can do $|(z-z_0)f|\leq A|z-z_0|^{\epsilon}$. $(z-z_0)f$ is bounded in a open set center at z_0 and holomorphic. the function $(z-z_0)f$ has a removable singularity, z_0.
 
What I wanted you to say was $f$ isn't a cellular map with the same cell structure on $T^n$ in both the domain and target copy. It does not induce a map on the cellular chain complexes.
 
Right
 
10:54 PM
It still does induce a map on homology, and the statement I made holds true
 
@BalarkaSen How do I prove this then?
With my specific cellular map
 
I don't think you get it from that, @Simple. I'm astonished at how stubborn you are about trying to change your approach. You really need to work on that.
 
Well, I gave you the answer, and it was intuitive enough that you guessed it correctly. I'm not going to do the dirty algebra ;)
You should write down an argument though
 
Is the algebra too dirty to even do. Like maybe I wouldn't even want to pick such a cellular complex at the point where $n\geq 4$?
 
Nah it seems direct
 
10:56 PM
There are $d_1d_2\dots d_n {n\choose 2}$ $2$-cells, which seems like quite a few, upstairs
Ah
Actually, maybe I do know what the kernel guys are
You pick $a\ne b$ in $\{1,\dots,n\}$ and they are $\sum_{i=1,j=1}^{i=d_a,j=d_b}e_{i,a}^1\times e_{j,b}^1\times\prod_{k\ne a,b} e_k^0$, possibly
I.e. you sum over all $1$-cells in a fixed pair of components, (which are producted with all zero-cells in all the other components)
 
@TedShifrin yea, I have a headache
 
This does seem to agree with what you said @BalarkaSen, since I have additivity, so I'll just get $d_ad_b$ copies of $e^1_{a}\times e^1_b\times \prod e^0$ downstairs
 
Not really following your notational mess. If you do get $d_a d_b$ copies of $e^1_a \times e^1_b$ downstair, you're through.
 
through as in "You're through the tunnel, and out the otherside to freedom" or through as in "You're finished bud, you're through, you've donezo"
 
As in, you're done.
 
11:05 PM
Ah good
 
I don't see why it does not agree with what I said
I said the map is gonna be $\prod_{\alpha \neq \beta} d_\alpha d_\beta : \Bbb Z^\binom{n}{2} \to \Bbb Z^\binom{n}{2}$
 
My notational nightmare was to index the $i$-cells with the superscript, and the $a$-th position with the $a$ and the $b$-th position with $b$
Yeah I said about that it does seem to agree with what you said
 
Oh, indeed.
I saw "does not" for some reason.
 
Yeah I've been seeing negations all morning too
 
Lol
IMO you should not argue by cells at all. Let $e^1_\alpha, e^1_\beta$ be two $1$-cells in $T^n$. By (diagram chase) the homology class in $H_2(T^n)$ correspond to the cell $e^1_\alpha \times e^1_\beta$ is given by image of $1 \in \Bbb Z = H_2(T^2)$ by the inclusion $T^2 \to T^n$ as the $\alpha\beta$-copy.
The image also lands inside this embedding of $H_2(T^2)$, and the map $H_2(T^2) \to H_2(T^2)$ is multiplying by $d_\alpha d_\beta$ (this you can already prove)
This describes the action of $f_*$ on each generator of $H_2(T^n)$ completely.
So you reduce the problem to 2-torus this way
 
11:10 PM
Oh...
That's what Ted was getting at I suppose
 
But it's OK to do it explicitly. Yeah.
 
@BalarkaSen Not really sure why this is true though I guess. Meaning, what diagram is there to chase?
 
So the inclusion $T^2 \to T^n$ as the $\alpha\beta$-copy is a cellular map. Then you see what it induces in the cellular chain complex.
And that does send the top cell in the domain to $e^1_\alpha \times e^1_\beta$ in the target.
 
Top cell gives $1 \in \Bbb Z = H_2(T^2)$, which lands into the homology class corresponding to the cell $e^1_\alpha \times e^1_\beta$ in $H_2(T^n)$, as promised.
 
11:15 PM
Okay I think I understand now
 
Ok, so what's really happening here, as you might guess, is that $\bigoplus_{1 \leq k \leq n} H_k(T^n)$ is some sort of an algebra.
 
If you have a map $M\to N$, such that it induces $H_*(M)\to H_*(N)$, then if you can find maps $L\to M\to N$ such that you can map to any generator of $H_*(N)$ from a map $H_*(L)\to H_*(N)$ factoring through $H_*(M)$, then you can completely describe the map
Wow I wrote that in a confusing way lol
 
Yeah I get what you mean.
 
Is there a categorical fact underlying this? It's confusing since we're taking products of spaces, rather than coproducts
 
Well, I don't know about category theory but I was trying to point at the fact that we're secretly saying there's some algebra structure on the total homology of $T^n$ which is natural under maps, and thus describing it on degree 1 describes it everywhere
Because higher degree generators are product of degree 1 guys
 
11:22 PM
Hmmm
 
there's always a categorical fact underlying it
 
I thought there was algebra structure on cohomology, but didn't know about it on homology
 
not that I would know which though
 
Yeah this isn't usually visible on homology. The point is homology and cohomology of torus are the same, because they are free (dual of fg free is the same guy)
 
Ok
So we cupped together two $1$-cells to get a $2$-cell or something
Actually I shouldn't get into this yet lol
 
11:24 PM
Yup.
You're seeing it cell-level
 
Gotcha
 
This is better than your categorical crap!
This chat is full of algebraists who are blind
What is wrong with you
 
lol
I am interested, just don't want to skip ahead to chapter 3 yet
 
You want to read Higher Topos Theory with me?
 
Sure
 
11:27 PM
See?
Point made
 
lol
 
@user574847 This is just an excuse to avoid geometry
 
you are blind to the categorical structure underlying it all
if you're not doing diffgeo on smooth toposes, you're doing it wrong
 
@BalarkaSen No, it's just that I have to learn this material for for an upcoming quiz, and chapter 3 is after the quiz
 
yeah no worries im being very facetious
 
11:28 PM
:D
I did mean "sure" in the 'not now though' sense btw :P
 
of course :p
 
handbook of categorical algebra groupread when
 
lol
 
you laugh, but I am going to read it eventually
 
@user574847 Sorry for missing your question, I'm usually only in here briefly
 
11:36 PM
No problem Mike, I took your choice of CW structure and cellular map to its conclusion :)
 
Balarka's thing can be said at the level of homology but I am not sure explaining it would make things less confusing, so I won't
 
yeah i started writing something but stopped
 
I'm happy enough anyhow, it makes sense now
I'll worry about the overarching theme after this is more intuitive
 
Yo take a star graph, consider the subspace by deleting the non-central nodes, and crush this. You get particular point topology, right?
yeah surely ok
 
@BalarkaSen This is actually a great example to understand the coproduct in and how it works but... not right now for me lol
 
11:51 PM
yeah ill ponder on it sometime
 
do it for T^2
 
i computed the coproduct on H(T^2) explicitly a while back
thinking about the diagonal class in T2 x T2 etc
 
from there it's an induction yeah
 
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