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6:03 PM
Hm ok
 
The reason I'm asking is because pointed homotopic maps are easily seen to induce the same map on the fundamental groups at the respective basepoints, but I do not know whether maps that are just homotopic do this as well.
In particular, pointed homotopy-equivalent spaces obviously have isomorphic fundamental groups, but I can't actually convince myself that homotopy-equivalent spaces have isomorphic fundamental groups (assume spaces are path-connected, so that fundamental group makes sense up to isomorphism type without choice of basepoint).
 
So if we look at those weird examples of contractible $Y$ that does not strongly deformation retract on any point and pick as $X$ a single point, does that work?
 
I don't know that example, but that works, yeah
 
It's in Hatcher
Exercise 6, chapter 0
 
of course it is
 
6:09 PM
Usually Hatcher has the nice spaces, not the ugly ones
 
lmao that's a funny space
 
123
Hi All.
Is there any theorem in group theory in which ODD order group $G$ has at least one element with ODD order element $a \in G$
 
every group has an element with odd order
 
123
@Thorgott Is there any theorem.
 
no, it's just an observation
 
123
6:15 PM
Because i have theorem in my book.
 
what's the order of the identity?
 
123
$\bf{THEOREM:}$ Let $G$ be a group and $x$ be an element of odd order in $G$. Then there exists an element $y \in G$ such that $y^2 = x$.
 
@123 what does =2 mean?
in a generic group?
 
123
Yes.. In odd order group. I have above theorem. Which required odd order element in odd order group. What is the guarantee there is always odd order element in odd order group?
 
I repeat my question: what's the order of the identity?
 
6:19 PM
@123 you might progress faster if you read & responded
just typing won't solve an issue
 
123
Identity has order $1$.
 
how odd
 
123
$a^1 = e$
About identity i am also confused we also take identity as $a^0 = e$. Why if there is $0$ operation of $a$ why it is considered as identity???
 
is $1$ an odd number?
 
it is a convention so that a^0 a^k = a^{0+k}
 
123
6:22 PM
@Thorgott Yes ..
 
so does every group have an element of odd order?
@Alessandro btw, did you reach a conclusion on the chain thing from yesterday?
 
123
So, it is also true for even order group. Why above theorem not says about even order group. it only says about odd order group?
 
the above theorem says nothing about the order of the group, if you've quoted it correctly
 
123
I exactly wrote theorem from my book.
 
you changed your theorem statement
 
123
6:26 PM
0
Q: Finite group of odd order with elements that are square

user449415The problem I am struggling with is "Find an example of a finite group G of order n where n is odd and each element of G is a square". In my understanding this means "Find a finite group with odd number of elements where each element can be expressed in ( )^2 form". Am I understanding the qu...

 
the theorem says nothing about the order of the group
it has a hypothesis involving the order of an element
 
123
Look at this link. The same thing is here.
 
that question is about something different
 
@123 please focus on one thing at a time.
 
also, whether an element $x$ with odd order exists in any group or not doesn't even matter for the theorem
it's an implication
 
123
6:28 PM
How can i share picture of my book. There is no attachment link here.
 
you don't need to share a picture of your book
the theorem is correct as you quote it
instead I urge you to read what it says carefully
 
123
I am sharing you the proof of book.
 
@Thorgott no but I didn't really think about it in the meantime
I had a meeting with my advisor today to talk about another paper so I was focussing on that
 
123
@Thorgott Pls look at this link above.
 
And those meetings tend to last for the whole afternoon
 
6:33 PM
I came to the conclusion that the limit of an ascending sequence of closed sets should be the closure of their union
 
That sounds extremely reasonable
 
cause a neighborhood meeting cofinitely many <=> meeting infinitely many <=> meeting any <=> meeting their union
 
123
This example required odd order element for odd order group.
 
I feel like decreasing sequences should convergence to their intersection, but I can't prove it
@123 The book doesn't talk about groups of odd order specifically. Why are you?
 
@Thorgott Isn't it very similar?
 
6:36 PM
@Alessandro The point is that I want to say if $C_n$ is decreasing to $C$ and $C\subseteq U$ for some open $U$, then $C_n\subseteq U$ for large enough $n$, which sounds true, but I haven't been able to prove it
 
123
Aahh okay. It means it holds for every group. My fault. but again it required odd order element of any G. What is the guarantee $G$ has element if odd order.
 
You don't need this guarantee
The example doesn't care about whether such an element exists or not
It says that if it it exists, then the conclusion holds
 
123
So how do we know every group has odd order element.
 
I already told you, every group has an identity element, which has odd order
But this doesn't matter for the example
 
123
It means this example only true if there is element of odd order in $G$ then this holds for every odd order element?
 
6:39 PM
I'm sure there's an easy argument that I'm not seeing
 
no, it means what it says
if $x$ is an odd order element in a group $G$, then there exists $y$ etc...
 
123
@Thorgott Pls clear me the statement of this.
 
IF $x$ is an element of odd order in a group $G$, THEN there exists a $y\in G$ such that $y^2=x$.
 
123
It means every odd order element $x \in G$ has $y^2 = x$ where $y \in G$
 
@Alessandro In particular, if I try contradiction, I obtain a sequence $(x_n)$ with $x_n\in C_n\cap U^c$ and if we assume sequential compactness cause we don't like nets, then we may assume $x_n\rightarrow x$. Obviously, $x\in U^c$. I'd like to say $x\in C$, then we get a contradiction and it sounds really plausible, but I can't tell whether it's true.
 
123
6:45 PM
@Thorgott In my example of second last line book take $y = x^{m + 1}$. What is meant by that???
 
that's how they define $y$
 
123
how do we know $G$ must have element order with $y = x^{m + 1}$
 
good god
for any m there is an element x^m, that is part of being a group
the theorem is not saying a lot, just (1+m)^2 mod m = 1
 
123
It means if element $O(x) = 2m + 1$. So the elements order smaller than $2m +1$ always exist???
 
this isn't about orders
if you have an element, you can take powers
because taking powers is just repeated multiplication and you can multiply elements in a group
 
123
6:53 PM
@Thorgott Ahh.. I see ... it means we can always operate elements $x$ by any power. Which can be $m + 1$.
 
123
@Thorgott Thank a lot. Now i understand the meaning of this theorem. Thanks you so much....... :-)
Pls also clear why $a^0 = e$. If we don't take any operation on $a$.
 
@123 it is a convention. a definition.
 
123
@copper.hat Okay. Because in one theorem. we take $a^r = e$. where $0 \le r < n$
We take $r = 0$ here.
@copper.hat Thanks.
 
you need to review the basics. for m>0 we define x^m = x.x....x, for m=0 we define x^m = e, for m<0 we define x^m = (x^{-1})^{-m}
i don't know what the point of your statement "Because..." is, you need to elaborate with complete sentences.
 
123
7:03 PM
Yes this also not clear to me. Why we take $x^{-m}$ for order. How negative $m$ can be the order of group.
 
@123 sorry, you are losing me, how can negative m be the order of a group? where did you get that from? are you just trolling?
 
123
You wrote above. $(x^{-1})^{-m}$
 
the order of a group is the cardinality of the group. it is different from the order of an element. in eithe rcase, where did you get negative orders???
 
123
there is $-m$
 
there is, so what?
 
123
7:06 PM
$-m$ represent the order of $x^{-1}$???
 
huh? where did you get that from?
for any integer we can define x^m. the order of an element as any group text will tell you is the SMALLEST POSITIVE INTEGER SUCH THAT x^m = e. i have seen Ted tell you this so I'm not sure what it going on here.
 
123
I assume this is the case by written $(x^{-1})^{-m} = e$
 
I don't understand what you are trying to write.
 
123
Let me share you a pic.
Pls see Q-16
They take $-m$
 
what has this to do with the order of an element? please focus on one thing. i do not have the energy to spend trying to follow what you are asking.
stream of consciousness worked for joyce, but is not so good in mathematics.
 
123
7:16 PM
I have seen in one example as you also wrote $(x^{-1})^{-m} = e$
 
where did i write that and in what context?
 
123
Does not it means $-m$ is order of $x^{-1}$ element
 
can you ask a complete question please. i have no idea what you are referring to.
 
123
I am confused with power $-m$
 
please ask a complete question. what is confusing. we DEFINE x^m = (x^{-1})^{-m} for negative m.
 
123
7:18 PM
how can the operation be negative?
 
it is a definition.
 
123
because i considered power as operation.
 
when you compute in integers the value 5-7 does that confuse you?
 
123
@copper.hat Okay. I accept it as definition. But if i want to calculate $-m$ operation how to do this?
 
i don't understand what you are asking. what do you mean claculate the -m operation?
 
123
7:20 PM
@copper.hat Yes. I am always considered power of an element as an operation $m$ times. but $-m$ power confused me.
as $a^m$ it means we operate $a$ element $m$ times.
If i see $(x^{-1})^{-m}$. I assume we operate $x^{-1}$ element $-m$ times. Pls clear me where i am wrong.
 
and why it is hard to understand that the element $x^{-1}$ can be 'operated' $-m$ times???
 
123
@copper.hat Yes yes exactly.
 
i'm completly lost.
 
123
@copper.hat Is this true $a^m$ means we operate $a$ element $m$ times??
$a^m = a.a.a....a$
 
123
7:26 PM
@copper.hat It means we take $-m$ only as definition???
 
ffs
it means you define a^m for three separate cases, m>0, m=0, m<0
 
123
@copper.hat Yes i have seen that. I am just asking about when $m<0$.
 
can you slow down and ask a complete question please.
what are you asking about m<0
 
123
In simple how can i think $(x^{-1})^{-m}$ What does mean about this statement?
 
in your words it is the element x^{-1} 'operated' -m times.
 
123
7:31 PM
@copper.hat Yes i think it this way. Where i am wrong. I want to understand.
 
i really do not follow. that is how it is defined. what do you think is wrong?
 
How can I show that if $S$ is a surface of revolution with generating curve $(x,0,e^{-x^2})$, then the trace of any geodesic is bounded
 
123
@copper.hat Am i right in this statement what you said?
 
you need to look at some simple groups, permutations, (Z,+), (R+,*), and look at what $x^m$ means for negative m.
are you right on what????????
 
123
in your words it is the element x^{-1} 'operated' -m times.
 
7:34 PM
sure if that is how you want to think about it.
 
123
you said this in above comment. This is correct or wrong. I am newbie pls be patients.
 
it is a definition. you can translate that into whatever wording you want.
to develop intuition you need to pick a few groups and understand what it means for each group.
 
123
@copper.hat Okay. Thanks.. $(Z,+)$ to see $-m$ as an order.
 
you lost me. what does that sentence mean?
where does order come into this?
 
123
:-) .... This always happen when you teach students in class.
 
7:37 PM
Oh the graph should terminate
 
123
@copper.hat Thank you so much for the support.
 
good luck.
 
123
@copper.hat If you have example to explain $(a^{-1})^{-m}$ pls share. One example needed from any group.
 
there is no explanation, it is a definition. in (Z,+) for positive $m$ we have 1^{-m} = -m
 
123
$1^{-3} = -3$ by this way we create negative integers element of group???
 
Huy
7:52 PM
hi @TedShifrin
 
Hi Huy
 
you do not create the elements, you start with the elements Z and define the group operation op(a,b) = a-b.
and show that it is a group.
 
123
Hi @TedShifrin
@copper.hat Thanks a lot.
 
Hi 123
 
123
@TedShifrin I am newly learning group theory. That's why i have so many stupid questions about this.
 
7:55 PM
@love_sodam You know the answer to your question.
I am not staying for long, 123.
 
Asked it. And saw the graph and recognized it
 
We have discussed this before.
 
123
@TedShifrin :D Ookay. I am not asking any more question now...
 
Huy
@TedShifrin a student of mine wants to extrapolate climate data. he collected data from some website e.g. for August 2020 in the format "average sea temperature, latitude, longitude". there is also data for August 2019, August 2018, etc.

do you know what would be a reasonable way to interpolate and then extrapolate so many data points? I only remember basics on how to interpolate data sets of the form (x, y) with different methods.
it doesn't need to be extremely super scientific, of course. just somewhat reasonable and not simply linear between two points
 
This is a statistics question. Sounds like you have lots of variables to correlate.
 
Huy
7:59 PM
exactly, and I don't really know how to
basically I want to interpolate or do some sort of regression to get a function sea_temp(time, latitude, longitude)
 
Yes suddenly I realized the meanings
 
Well, you can certainly do multivariable regression, now that you suggested what should be the dependent variable.
 
Huy
@TedShifrin is this the least square thing? with the normal equations?
I only remember some parts from numerical analysis because I haven't applied them since my exams in uni - but if I know what I have to look up again, I'll do it of course
 
Yes ... You can choose to model by linear functions or whatever and then do least squares .
 
Huy
ok
 
8:02 PM
It's in my linear algebra book :)
 
Huy
:)
 
If you want to learn a little stat with the geometry/linear algebra made clear, I can send a masters thesis I directed 10 yrs ago.
 
Huy
@TedShifrin by any chance, do you know if he'll be able to do this with MATLAB? or will he need R (because I hate R and can't help him with it)
 
But I don't know stat at all, sadly.
I hate MATLAB.
 
Huy
@TedShifrin if it is directly related to what I need, yes, otherwise, later. we have to "solve" this before Christmas because he was too shy to ask me before, when he would still have had more time to work on it...
 
8:05 PM
You can do the normal equations with any CAS, I guess.
 
Huy
I was thinking MATLAB because the data contains ~1 million of data points for each time point
 
I know no numerical analysis.
Agh. Crazy.
How to input all these data?
 
Huy
I don't know, I hoped that MATLAB can import it
it is already formatted nicely in a .csv file from a NASA website
 
Probably so.
Great question for the kid :)
 
Huy
@TedShifrin I was thinking about extremely simplifying the process and just compute the average temperature of the 1 million data points for each time point
but I'm not sure if this will still lead to a useful extrapolation
 
8:08 PM
Seems like location and time might be relevant. For each location, watch how it varies with time. Might be non-linear.
 
Huy
yes
pretty sure even average is non-linear
mankind killing the planet quickly
 
Maybe see how the average varies (do a log fit to see the exponent) and then fit to such a function for each location.
 
Is there any general term of 'angle displacement: If $S$ is oriented and $\gamma$ is of unit speed, then the angle displacement along $\gamma$ is $\Delta\theta = \theta(b)-\theta(b)$ where $\theta$ is an angle function of $\gamma$ and $\gamma:[a,b]\to S$ is a regular curve'
 
Huy
@TedShifrin that is what I meant by my above simplification
 
angle function: antiderivative of $k_g$ a geodesic curvature
 
8:11 PM
Oh, this is all in my text. Section 3.1.
 
Huy
I asked people from our geography faculty for help. none of them has any idea about maths or statistics or any possible mathematical model for the data :(
 
Geography people have to know stat. That's nuts.
 
Huy
apparently they don't
 
This is at the uni?
 
Huy
no, at high school where I teach
 
8:13 PM
Oh, yeah, They wouldn’t.
 
Huy
:(
 
Honestly, everyone should know some amount of math
 
But high school science teachers don't do data modeling in general.
 
Huy
yes, probably
 
This is true
 
Huy
8:15 PM
@TedShifrin stupid question (cause I don't do statistics) - how does one do this? look at the graph and "guess"? or is there some more mathematical way to?
 
if this is a school project i might split the surface into 'squares' so i am not working on S^2 and compute a 'flat earth' model. this will have issues at the boundary but might work for you.
its is not an entirely trivial project.
 
Huy
it's not supposed to. it's a "graduate" project. we have "graduate projects" in the last year of high school
 
Yeah, one can fit with splines, which I know nothing about. Looking at the graph of the (localized?) average would suggest a shape and then maybe a logarithmic best fit would be appropriate.
 
9:23 PM
Okay. So I have a 4x4 matrix over $\Bbb{Q}$ with characteristic polynomial $p_A(x) = x^4 + x^2$. I am trying to determine whether it has Jordan form over $\Bbb{Q}$. I don't think it does, because the only eigenvalue of $A$ over $\Bbb{Q}$ is $0$, and its multiplicity in $p_{A}(x)$ is $2$, which means, if it had a Jordan form, the Jordan block corresponding to $0$ would be 2x2. But the dimensions don't add up, so it can't possibly have a Jordan form over $\Bbb{Q}$.
Does this seem right?
 
123
9:57 PM
Is there any theorem which proves group is cyclic or not???
 
You need to a little more specific.
 
123
Because Theorem of every subgroup of cyclic group is cyclic using normal order finding method (Euclid division algorithm), which is used to find the order of element of any non-cyclic and cyclic group. There is no special method for proving subgroup is cyclic.
 
123
Pls see attached THEOREM-2.11. Which is used to proof order of element in any group.
THEOREM-2.19: used the same analogy for proving subgroup of cyclic group is cyclic. as in attached. I don't see any special thing which proves subgroup is cyclic or normal.
 
10:13 PM
sry, if you have a specific question i can help, but i don't know what you are looking for or why.
 
123
@copper.hat I think i am specific. What you don't understand in my question. Pls tell me.
 
there is no special method.
what are you looking for? i think you need to focus on basics first before you go on road trips.
 
123
How can we say using THEOREM-2.19 the subgroup of cyclic group is cyclic??
@copper.hat This is elementary book.
 
i do not understand what you are asking. it is a fairly standard proof that a subgroup of a cyclic group is cyclic.
 
123
10:30 PM
@copper.hat Thanks now i see problem.
Theorem-2.19 used element $a$ for the cyclic group and same element $a$ for subgroup also. This was confusing to me.
 
it would be much more efficient and considerably less noisy if you thought a little first and then ask a specific, fully formed question.
 
123
@copper.hat Pls see this example. They used cross product operation. Why they take $i^2 = j^2 = k^2 = 1$
I am studying it newly, i am doing so many mistakes. But i am learning so many things for this room. For this support thank a lot.
 
again, i do not understand the question. this is the definition of the group operation.
and it is -1, not 1
 
123
@copper.hat Did you see the attachment??
Yes sorry about that $-1$.
 
sry, this is getting tiring. there is no cross product in the image.
frankly this is a bit annoying so i am going to stop.
 
123
10:41 PM
My question is that if operation is cross product as seen by $ij = k$, then $i \times i = 0$ not $-1$
This is what i am confusing in this. I know but this helped me.
What i am thinking wrong here?
It's 4:00a.m here. but i am still trying to figure out these things.
 
@123 i am going to block you, i like to help, but that presupposes that you do a modicum of work yourself first.
 
123
If you like you can. Sorry if i annoy you. GooD Day. Bye
 
10:59 PM
@123 the operation is not the cross product. The operation is similar to the cross product in the sense that $ij=-ji$ and $ij=k$, but $i^2=j^2=k^2=-1$ is different from the cross product.
That is, products are not anti-symmetric; for example: $1^2=1$.
 
am i too impatient?
 
@user193319 $$\begin{bmatrix}i&0&0&0\\0&-i&0&0\\0&0&0&0\\0&0&0&0\end{bmatrix}$$ and $$\begin{bmatrix}i&0&0&0\\0&-i&0&0\\0&0&0&1\\0&0&0&0\end{bmatrix}$$ are possibilities
@copper.hat I can't say. I have not been here the whole time.
 
11:22 PM
thx!
 
Howdy @robjohn
 
@TedShifrin Hey there. How go the battles? (covid, politics, anything really)
 
@copper Some of our denizens require a lot of patience. Some too much for me sometimes.
Um, well, I'm still here, @robjohn. I do see more people wearing masks. Maybe the fact that SoCal is about to be locked down seriously is getting their attention.
I don't know how the medical profession is hanging in there.
 
@TedShifrin My wife and I walk in the morning and she gets irate at the people without masks and exercising in the park. It feels unsafe to be near them.
@TedShifrin around here, the hospitals are overrun
 
Yup, I get it. But when I walk (pretty much daily) now I encounter fewer unmasked people, so that's progress. But the ignorance and selfishness that have been inculcated in our society by you-know-whom is astonishing and infuriating.
 
11:28 PM
It is true that I do see more masks in general, but it is far from 100%
 
I've been inside for the last week, but I hear it's getting bad out there
 
Yes, he who must not be named has made lying okay and ruined so much
 
i think masks beyond 6' in an uncrowded area offer little incremental protection.
 
@Rithaniel Yes, I walk our dogs 2-3 times a day and make trips to get food occasionally. It is pretty bad.
 
anecdotal, but ireland does not require masks outside and rates are considerably lower than CA.
 
11:30 PM
@copper.hat the masks are not so much for the wearer as they are for those around the wearer.
 
funerals & pubs.
 
I wish people had enough sense to know that listening to that guy is just a losing proposition
 
i understand.
 
Well, there used to be an avid supporter of his, education notwithstanding, who frequented this room.
Just incomprehensible. I guess it comes of growing up surrounded by idiots in the South. hides
 
politics are rarely rational, they are more like following teams
 
11:32 PM
Well, when politics disregards and nullifies science, I disagree.
 
There are people, that I think are fairly intelligent except in politics, that support him that I deal with in the park on a daily basis. I make sure we no longer discuss politics.
 
I've never picked up on whatever charisma he has. Everything he says and does just makes me either roll my eyes or recoil in outrage/disgust. But he apparently has some kind of charisma.
 
Yes, he makes racist white people feel like "finally, someone who gets me." How any POC or LGBT or women get him is beyond me.
 
Also, I'm in the south. I've grown up surrounded by those same idiots. It's part of why I'm a social recluse
 
if rational though (from an economic perspective) prevailed we would have good public education and a reasonable health care system.
 
11:34 PM
@TedShifrin and there must be a number of them
 
@Rithaniel: I lived in Athens for 34 years. A little oasis.
 
I'm a little north of Clemson, myself
Athens, GA?
 
I've never been to the South, though I do have relatives in Tennessee and Georgia
 
i like new orleans, nice vibe.
 
Yes, @Rithaniel. I taught at UGA for 34 years.
I thought you knew that.
 
11:36 PM
Ah, yeah, I think I did know that. I just never mentally connected UGA with what it's an abbreviation of
 
LOL, oh.
Remember we discussed your faculty friend who moved to Ga Tech.
 
Oh yeah, Ben Jaye
I should send him an email and say hello
 
at the moment, about 550 midwesterners die per day due to covid.
 
My wife and I watched a webinar from the University of California this afternoon which dealt with the legal status of the Indigenous peoples' rights (my wife is an attorney), and they had much to say about the bad things that happened in the last 4 years and were looking forward to Biden/Harris.
 
We're all looking forward to it, but unless the two GA senators are deposed, McConnell will continue to stonewall and wield his vicious power.
 
11:41 PM
It is horrific how nullified a president can be when the Congress does not back them
not much gets done
 
And conversely ...
 
yes
 
When the Senate and the Attorney General are pawns ... the framers never figured on that.
 
i am more than a little surprised at how many republicans capitulated completely.
 
I figure Putin is pulling a lot of strings.
 
11:44 PM
I will say that 2020 was a fitting end to the reign of error
 
looks to see if it's martini-time yet
 
it's getting close (for UTC-8)
 
i wish...
 
Surely you're done writing your son's essays by now :P
@robjohn: Best I know, copper is just north of us.
In fact, I know exactly what corner he lives on.
 
yes sir!!! we invoked help from his considerate english teacher and hi sister in college in the uk
turns out my irish/uk essay writing skills are a bit inappropriately formal for uc applications
 
11:47 PM
So we're all in the same happy zone
 
Of course, when I was on the university admissions committee, I could usually tell when students had had help writing their essays. It didn't do them much good.
 
well, i did assist, but more guidance. his sister undid much of that
 
As an alumnus interviewer for MIT, I get to talk to kids for 1 1/2 hours, but I don't see anything they've submitted. It's fine with me.
 
when my daughter wrote her uk application essays she described me as brutal.
 
Did the essays ask her to describe her parents? :D
I never involved my parents in any of this stuff.
 
11:48 PM
:-). i did not realize the impact i had on her
but she got in!
 
Admissions readers are very skilled. They would rather read something authentic and imperfect.
 
there is a distinct difference between the uk/irish expectations and usa
@TedShifrin that was the essence of my daughter's comments
 
And, at least at UGA, the essay only mattered for borderline people in the middle. The very top kids and very bottom kids got in based on grades, test scores, and teacher recs.
Good for her. Tell your daughter I'd like to meet her :)
 
will do. she's always happy to meet people.
 
LOL ... she seems wise before her years.
 
11:51 PM
she is the parent in our relationship
 
Ah, makes sense.
 
she's already worrying about retirement. at 19.
as in the financial aspect, i mean
her term finishes tomorrow.
 
Perhaps a bit too wise for her own good.
 
i have tried unsuccessfully to encourage a wild side...
 
I just found out that our canine canter will be in 5 minutes. See y'all later.
 
11:54 PM
enjoy!
 
Bye.
Canine canter?!!
 
walking the dogs
 
hopefully not riding dogs
 
I was envisioning a cantor.
 
my replacement printer has not arrived (ups :-() but i need to go shopping. life is tough :-)
talk later, take care!
@TedShifrin i envy you your patience
 
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