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2:00 PM
The only thing that is clear (based on adjusting the coefficients in the desmos plot) is that the shift forms a continuous function and is very sensitive to where the root initially is, but I will need to check in more detail to determine what that function look like
 
@Semiclassical I was asked to use the equioscillation theorem to show that the best approximation of an even function on $[-d,d]$ by a degree-$n$ polynomial w.r.t. the $L^\infty$ norm is also even
i.e. let $f \in C^0[-d,d]$ even and $p_n^\ast$ be a deg <= n polynomial that best approximates $f$ in the sense that $\|f-p_n^\ast\|_\infty$ is minimized
show that $p_n^\ast$ is even
 
2:36 PM
I don't remember what the equioscillation theorem is, tbh
That seems like a reasonable enough statement, though: the approximant has the same symmetry as the function
 
yeah but I need to prove it o.o
 
"Let $f:[a,b]\to \mathbb{R}$ be a continuous function . Among all the polynomials of degree at most $n$, the polynomial $g$ minimizes $\|f-g\|_{\infty }$ if and only if there are $n+2$ points $a\leq x_{0}<x_{1}<\cdots <x_{n+1}\leq b$ such that $f(x_{i})-g(x_{i})=\sigma (-1)^{i}\|f-g\|_{\infty }$ where $\sigma =\pm 1$."
just to have a common reference (that's from the wiki page on equioscillation)
So evidently you want to show that, if those conditions are fulfilled and $f$ is even, then $g$ must also be even.
 
If I have two polynomials completely factored into linear polynomials over some field, what is their gcd? Isn't it the product of the common factors raised to the larger power?
 
I don't really see why that would follow tho
 
@user193319 yes, just like how you find gcd of integers
oh and you don't need the factors to be linear
just need them to be irreducible
 
2:51 PM
Maybe the thing to do is look at the interval $[0,d]$ first
You construct the approximant on $[0,d]$ first, and then show that extending it to an even function gives you the approximant for $[-d,d]$ as well
 
@LeakyNun Ah, okay. Thanks. In my case I actually have the polynomials factored into linear polynomials, but thanks for informing me about the general case.
 
And then argue that it's the unique approximant
 
@Semiclassical interesting approach
 
Note that you can't run this backwards. If you've got n+2 points in [0,d], then you automatically get 2n+2 points on [-d,d] which is certainly sufficient
But if you had n+2 points in [-d,d], then you'd presumably lose some in going to [0,d]
 
Wait, don't I take the smaller power?
 
2:57 PM
Hmm, not sure my last statements actually hold.
 
@user193319 yeah smaller
I didn't really read that carefully
I just recognized the right idea
@Semiclassical is the polynomial unique?
 
3:13 PM
well, it's an if and only if condition
that does raise an interesting question, though
i.e. can a function have two best-approximations on a given interval?
my guess is that, if you do that, you end up having two polynomials which are equal in enough places (relative to their degrees) that they have to be identical
i.e. the difference between the two polynomials would itself be a degree $\leq n$ polynomial, and this difference would have more than $n$ zeros
So I think it all hangs together.
actually, something seems incomplete here
Suppose $p_n^\ast$ on $[0,d]$ were an odd polynomial
Then there's no way to extend that to an even polynomial on [-d,d]
so I don't think the argument works as I said it
 
3:30 PM
@Semiclassical is $(\|f-g\|_\infty)^2$ convex in $g$?
any norm is convex isn't it
without the square even
look
$\|(1-t)u+tv\| \le \|(1-t)u\| + \|tv\| = (1-t)\|u\| + t\|v\|$
problem solved
convex functions have unique minimum... wait no
 
strictly convex
it isn't strictly convex is it
but its square should be
$\|(1-t)u+tv\|^2 \le (1-t)\|u\|^2 + t\|v\|^2 + 2t(1-t)\|u\|\|v\|$
no that's the wrong direction...
$\|(1-t)u+tv\|^2 \le (1-t)^2\|u\|^2 + t^2\|v\|^2 + 2t(1-t)\|u\|\|v\|$
the extra term is not good
@Semiclassical help
let's say u and v are real numbers
then $((1-t)u+tv)^2 = (1-t)^2 u^2 + t^2 v^2 + 2t(1-t) u v$
$= (1-t) u^2 + t v^2 - t(1-t) u^2 - t(1-t) v^2 + 2t(1-t)uv$
$= (1-t) u^2 + t v^2 - t(1-t) (u-v)^2$
brilliant
it isn't the wrong direction
$\|(1-t)u+tv\|^2 \le (1-t)^2\|u\|^2 + t^2\|v\|^2 + 2t(1-t)\|u\|\|v\| = (1-t) \|u\|^2 + t \|v\|^2 - t(1-t) (\|u\| - \|v\|)^2$
oh no it isn't good
I do need an inner product
oh my god, this is terrible, this is the end of my proof, i'm hopeless
 
3:55 PM
let $$y = f(x)$$ be a fxn. such that $$f(a) = 0$$
then then how do i minimize $$\sqrt{\frac{2s}k} + \sqrt{\frac{a^2+ b^2}{2ks}}$$
where $$b$$ and $$k$$ are constants
 
consider $\Bbb R^2$ with the supremum norm, let u=(1,0) and v=(1,1), then |u| = |v| = |(u+v)/2| = 1
@Semiclassical this is not good at all
 
where $$s = \int_{0}^{a} \sqrt{1 + (dy/dx)^2}dx$$
anyone any ideas?
 
@TheEastWind use $b$ instead of $$b$$ to make it in-line
 
How to edit it now?
 
well next time
 
4:04 PM
oh thanks
any ideas?^^
 
maybe you should minimize $\sqrt{\dfrac{2s}k} + \sqrt{\dfrac{a^2+b^2}{2ks}}$ in terms of $s$ first
since finding a function with length $s$ seems rather trivial
 
The one annoying bit there is that $s$ is a function of $a$
 
yeah i was about to say that
do i have to apply euler lagrange equation?
 
no, that's for functionals
@Semiclassical $s$ isn't a function of $a$ right
I mean, $a$ is a constant
@Semiclassical did you see above?
 
Sure it is. $ds/da=(1+y'(a)^2)^{1/2}-(1+y'(0)^2)^{1/2}$
 
4:10 PM
@LeakyNun s has a in the upper limit of the integral
 
but a is a constant
 
no only b and k are constant
a can be any value which satisfies f(a) = 0
and since f(x) can be anything that would also make $a$ a variable(?)
 
what are you allowed to change?
 
we can choose f(x)
and since we can choose f(x) i think that automatically makes a a variable too
since a satisfies f(a) = 0
This is actually the mathematical formulation of a physics problem.
 
Maybe you should start by saying the physics problem.
 
4:17 PM
a man stands on the bank of a frozen river. he has to reach the opposite point on the river in the shortest time possible.The river has friction coefficient 0, and the grass on both sides of the frozen river has friction coefficient $\mu$. What will be the minimum time required for the man to cross the river
$b$ is the width of the river
 
bleh
if that was instead something like "he moves with velocity v1 on the frozen river and v2 on the grass"
then that'd basically be a snell's law problem
 
yeah thats the whole catch
the man would have to first gain some velocity by walking on the grass
 
and the walk on the river with the final velocity acquired due to his motion
there has to be some trick right?
the above minimization seems nasty
plus we really didnt apply any physics here
save for a basic application of the eqns of motion
 
my guess would be that you'd walk along the river for some distance, then walk in a straight line towards the other point. in that case the arc length is just pythagorean
 
4:23 PM
Yeah but in order to prove that guess we would have to approach like i did right?
 
yeah, and that's just yuuuuck
 
Can wolfram solve such things?
 
Not without a lot of setup, I think
 
We would need someone to write mathematica code into it right?
 
fix a first
then obtain an expression in terms of a
then minimize that
 
4:26 PM
How can we fix a? that is basically the distance along the river that the man finally travels, and that will depend on the curve f(x) that we choose right?
 
well
suppose the person walks some distance up the river first
if you then want to minimize the time to get from that point to the other side, you'd definitely walk in a straight line
 
yeah
will the man move along a cycloid
 
i mean kind of like the brachistochrone problem?
 
why would he move on a cycloidi
once you've walked along the river, you're just trying to find the path which gets you from point a to point b in the fastest time while going at a constant velocity
that's just a matter of finding the shortest path. that's a straight line
 
4:29 PM
yeah i am talking about walking on the grass
he would walk on the grass on a cycloid(?) and then on a st line on the frozen river
 
no. he'd just walk in a straight line on the grass
if he walks away from the bank of the river, he'll have to walk back towards it
 
but while doing so he would gain less velocity as compared to when he traverses a longer path
and that extra velocity would make him travel the frozen river faster
the man is being constantly accelerated while walking on the grass
 
I guess what you're saying is this: You walk away from the river, stop, and then walk towards the river
 
no i wont stop
 
hmm
yuck
 
4:32 PM
i will continuously keep increasing my velocity and make a path that takes me finally straight up the river
and from there a st line
@Semiclassical Yea i know
 
4:47 PM
But you said opposite point on the river?
The brachistochrone problem involves gravity. I don't see anything remotely analogous in this.
 
a big difference with the gravitational context: there, you have a constant acceleration in some particular direction
in this problem, you've got a constant acceleration in the direction of motion
 
@TedShifrin hey
 
5:26 PM
@TedShifrin well i was thinking that since both problems ask to minimize time under constant acceleration
but as @Semiclassical said there the direction was fixed
 
Just posted this on the main site and I'm happy to discuss it here as well.
0
Q: Generalization of graph connectivity to edge cases (null graph, singleton graph)

SzabolcsI am looking for advice on what would be a reasonable or useful generalization of vertex- and edge-connectivity to the graphs with 0 and 1 vertices (null graph and singleton graph). Motivation: Creating a software package that computes these quantities, as well as checks connectivity and biconne...

 
hello, please why uniform continuity implies continuity?
someone here?
 
5:48 PM
@Poline: Why is not immediate?
Belated hi @Leaky demonic@Alessandro
 
Hello!
I have a question regarding reasonings, when using $\exists$
 
hi manooo
What's the question?
 
just because $\forall x,x'$ in the uniform continuity
 
I am going to translate it for you, could you wait, please?
 
@Poline: So if you fix $x'=a$, what does it tell you?
 
5:51 PM
@TedShifrin it brings me grief that square-norm isn't necessarily strictly convex in a normed vector space
 
Hmm, @Leaky, I'm not sure I knew that.
 
should I tell you the counter-example?
 
Sure.
 
it's with the supremum norm in R^2
where (1,-1) and (1,1) average to (1,0)
 
Oh, I see ...
 
5:53 PM
all three having the same norm
 
So convex, but not strictly. Sure.
 
that is a very sad realization
 
Why?
Hi @loch
 
I wanted to show that a polynomial $p$ of degree <= n that minimizes $\|f-p\|_\infty$ is unique
 
Oh, I doubt that's true.
 
5:55 PM
Hi @Ted
 
Usually, you need an inner product to get that sort of uniqueness.
 
Suppose we have the following: All the complete graphs are connected. There are simple graphs that are not connected. Therefore, there are simple graphs that are not complete.
I know that the propositions are: $$\begin{array}{l} p(x)=\text{A graph is complete}.\\ q(x)=\text{A graph is connected}.\\ r(x)=\text{A graph is simple}. \end{array}$$
And the reasoning is as follows: $$\begin{array}{cc} \forall x:&p(x)\implies q(x)\\ \exists x:&r(x)\wedge\neg q(x)\\\hline \exists x:&r(x)\wedge\neg p(x) \end{array}$$
My question is, is it correct to say that when using $\exists$, an implicator should NEVER appear, but should ALWAYS be a conjunction? Because it has already happened to me several times that when I work with the existential and the sentence seems to use an implicator, in reality the premise is with a conjunction.
In the example, why $\exists x(r(x)\wedge\neg q(x))$ and not $\exists x(r(x)\implies\neg q(x))$?
Thanks!!
 
No, @manooooh, you can certainly say that there exists an integer $m$ so that $m$ even implies $m=2$.
It's the particular context that you're working in that makes it be different.
 
@TedShifrin so the answer is "No, you can sometimes use an implicator"?
 
I believe so. I gave you an example.
You can have a universal statement $p(x)\implies q(x)$. And it might only hold for certain values of $x$.
That would lead to a statement of the form $\exists x$ s.t. $p(x)\implies q(x)$.
 
5:59 PM
therefore, yes, there is a context in which there is an existential and the existential is followed by an implication
 
@TedShifrin but read the first sentence: "All the complete graphs are connected". It says are and an implicator is used. Read the second one: " There are simple graphs that are not connected". It says are, but in this case a conjunction is used. Why?
 
Because it's an existence statement: "there are ..."
 
@TedShifrin sorry, I do not follow the logic
 
"all" versus "there exists"
 
@TedShifrin so the answer would be "Yes, when working with existencial you should use conjunction"
 
6:00 PM
Oh, I see. So you're asking whether you could rewrite the sentence with an implication.
 
@TedShifrin yes, I know that, but why not $\exists x(r(x)\implies\neg q(x))$?
 
There is no causality. The sentence is formed with "simple" and "not connected," rather than claiming one causes the other.
 
@TedShifrin yes! It seems that the sentence has the same structure than the first one but with the only difference of the quantifier
 
So let's think about how you can rewrite $P\implies Q$. Do you know that?
Yes, I understand your point, @manooooh.
 
@TedShifrin $\neg P\vee Q$
 
6:02 PM
So you just wrote it with a conjunction rather than with an implication. You can always do that if you insist.
 
@TedShifrin that f in continuous at a
 
@Poline: Exactement.
@manooooh: It has nothing to do with the quantifier in general. Certain conjunctive sentences can be rewritten as implications; certain other ones cannot.
It really is a question about what the statement itself is.
 
@TedShifrin how do you deduce from our sentences that some should be with implicator and others with conjunction?
Let me give you another example
 
If it's of the form $\neg P \wedge Q$, then you could use an implication. Otherwise, not.
Ugh, how do you do that stupid symbol?
 
@TedShifrin \neg for negation, and \implies for implies
 
6:05 PM
Got it.
I never write with logic symbols.
 
Oh
 
It really is a question, intuitively, of causality, which is what an implication entails. "If it rains, then the ground is wet." Well, I could say, "the ground is wet and it is raining." That's a different statement.
It could be that the ground is wet because someone spilled water there, nothing to do with rain.
 
Some guests are engineers. Some engineers give classes in the faculty. Therefore, some guests teach at the faculty.
We have: $$\begin{array}{l} p(x)=\text{A person is a guest}.\\ q(x)=\text{A person is an engineer}.\\ r(x)=\text{An engineer teaches in the faculty}. \end{array}$$
And the reasoning is: $$\begin{array}{cc} \exists x:&p(x)\wedge q(x)\\ \exists x:&q(x)\wedge r(x)\\\hline \exists x:&p(x)\wedge r(x).\end{array}$$
See: "Some guests are engineers" uses "are" but in the formalization you use a conjunction, meanwhile in the other example we used $\Longrightarrow$. Why?
(P.S. The reasoning is invalid)
 
Typically "$\implies$" requires "if ... then" (i.e., some sort of causality, as I keep saying). You could say that if you're an engineer, then you teach classes. Then the "some" still would apply. It's a matter of the English (or whatever language) phrasing.
 
@TedShifrin I understand that the more used structure is "If... then", but in this case we do not have it
 
6:13 PM
But you could say it that way, as I just indicated. It is a matter of what logical statement you're trying to make. That is the context. It's not about rules.
 
In "All the complete graphs are connected" we use an implicator, but in "Some guests are engineers" we use a conjunction. Both have the same structure, but differ in the quantifier.
 
Because that sentence is "if a graph is complete, then it is connected."
You could say, "If a person is a guest, then he is an engineer."
 
@TedShifrin but the other could be "If a person is a guest then a person he is an engineer"
 
Right, I just said that. You could say that.
But the logic structure is coming from the sentence as it's written.
Yes, I should not have been sexist. He or she is an engineer :)
 
@TedShifrin but the correct form of "Some guests are engineers" is using $\wedge$, not $\implies$!
 
6:15 PM
I think you're looking for absolute rules and there aren't any.
No, there is no one correct way. It's a matter of what the sentence is interpreted to mean. You're making too big a deal. You're trying to have a rule.
 
@TedShifrin What I am seeing is that for two same structures that differ in a quantifier the logical operator is changed completely. Why does that happen? And I answer "Well for the use of the quantifier". It is right?
@TedShifrin but!!! You do not see that "All the complete graphs are connected" and "Some guests are engineers" have the same structure of sentence, differing in a quantifier?
 
I'm saying it has nothing to do with the quantifier. You keep not listening to me.
 
Then, like a teacher, when a student makes a mistake you must say why it is wrong. If I formalize "Some guests are engineers" as $\text{If a person is a guest then is an engineer}$ and it's wrong, why is it wrong?
 
I agree that "all" suggests that it becomes an "if then" rule. But that might be false.
Every day, if the ground is wet, then it has been raining. That's a false statement, because it's phrased with "every." Whereas, every day, if it is raining, then the ground is wet seems to be a true statement. They are both implications. If I want to make the first statement true, I have to change the logical structure of the statement.
 
@TedShifrin could it be a general rule that in the "for all" use "implies" and in the "exists" use "and"? Obviously, there are exceptions to the rule
 
6:22 PM
not much of a general rule if it's got exceptions
you might be able to formulate a useful heuristic in that way
 
@Semiclassical Well... so please tell me why in one sentence we use "for all" with an implicator, and in other sentence with the same structure differing by a quantifier, we change it to "and"
 
I resign from this discussion.
 
@TedShifrin I believe that you are not answering why the operands are changed, sorry
 
I don't really care.
You are trying to separate math from language, and you cannot.
 
@TedShifrin (I think) you have not justified why two sentences with the same structure behave differently
 
6:30 PM
forall and implies are all pi types, exists and and are all sigma types, ...
 
@LeakyNun sorry I do not know what "pi types" and "sigma types" mean. Could you expand it, please?
 
6:46 PM
can we find the integral of ln(arcsin(sinh(x))) ?
can we express it in the form of elementary functions?
 
7:02 PM
@Mathphile Mathematica 8.0 does not know the solution to that integral.
 
well i typed it out and it gave me no output
it was just running
 
Yes. But if you wait long enough it does give an output that is not different from the input.
 
okay
i guess there is no elementary form for the integral then -_-
 
What you can try is to look at the power series:
Series[Integrate[Log[ArcSin[Sinh[x]]], x], {x, 0, 12}]
$$x (\log (x)-1)+\frac{x^3}{9}+\frac{x^5}{45}+\frac{233 x^7}{19845}+\frac{194 x^9}{25515}+\frac{1406 x^{11}}{245025}+O\left(x^{13}\right)$$
 
Well, trying out the integral of arcsin(sinhx), you get a very expansive expression
ln(arcsinx) and ln(sinhx) are a little more well behaved.
 
7:56 PM
@MatheinBoulomenos hoi
 
@LeakyNun ciao
 
@MatheinBoulomenos wie sprichst du "Dirichlet" aus?
 
Fun fact: $\exp\int_0^x\tanh t~dt=\sec\int_0^x\operatorname{sech}t~dt$
 
interesting
 
Does $\sum _{n=0}^{\infty} \frac{(2n-1)!!}{(2n)!!(2n+1)}$ have a limit?
 
8:00 PM
‼️
 
!!!!
@AkivaWeinberger wait
I never knew it has a unicode
 
It's an emoji
 
Zee
Tanh is an ugly function
 
Take that back, it's a beautiful sigmoid
@Mathphile I would try rewriting those in terms of regular factorials
 
@LeakyNun [diʀiˈkleː]
 
8:02 PM
(There's a way to write double-factorials in terms of factorials)
 
@MatheinBoulomenos that's what the English wiki says
 
Zee
What's a double factorial, composition of the factorial operation ?
 
@Zee No, it's the product of every other number from $n$ down
so like $7!!=7\cdot5\cdot3\cdot1$
 
you can also hear people say [diʀiˈçleː], but I don't think it is correct (that's a weird mix of German and French pronouncation)
 
Düren is an interesting place
 
Zee
8:04 PM
Ok, that's the first time I see that notation, cool
 
I'm trying to make a [çl] sound and it's not quite working
 
it was French when Dirichlet was born
 
It makes a weird plosive sound against my teeth
 
so $(7!)! \ne 7!!$?
 
but it became German at his 10 years old
 
8:05 PM
@Mathphile Yeah, it's a weird notation
 
Zee
Do any of you know good French sources to learn? There is the app drops it's good but you only get 10 free minutes a day
 
@Zee read Bourbaki
 
See if your library can loan you audiobooks
like Pimsleur language-learning stuff
 
Zee
Lol I been reading EGA for 2 months now, I cant do it anymore
 
Try the app Overdrive
It lets you borrow ebooks and audiobooks from your library onto your phone
 
8:08 PM
@LeakyNun Saarland was French when my grandfather was born there, it became part of Germany when he was 11
 
Zee
That sounds complicated
 
@MatheinBoulomenos why does Dirichlet have German given names?
 
@LeakyNun he's of Belgian descent and Belgium is multilingual
 
but he's from the French-speaking regions of Belgium
I could not find the full name of his paternal grandfather other than "Antoine Lejeune Dirichlet"
Was Düren French or German in 1711?
 
it was occupied by France
but that doesn't mean that the population spoke French
oh no wait I thought you were talking about Dirichlet's birthday
 
8:22 PM
I don't know, maybe the population near the French-German border speak both languages
@MatheinBoulomenos how many hours are you away from France?
 
@LeakyNun less than 1 hour by car
 
According to mathematica the limit for $\sum _{n=0}^{\infty} \frac{(2n-1)!!}{(2n)!!(2n+1)}$ is pi/2
 
maybe you should learn French :P @MatheinBoulomenos
 
anyone know how to prove this?
 
@LeakyNun oui
but it's hard to not unlearn languages
 
8:33 PM
what does that mean
oh
 
I know German, English, Latin, Ancient Greek and a bit of Italian
if you don't practise, you forget
 
ceterum censeo Carthaginam esse delindam
ton grand-pere parlait-il francais?
 
no, mon grand-pere ne parlait pas francais
not anymore, anyway
he learned it when he was a kid
he also learned Latin, Greek and Hebrew in school
 
8:50 PM
@Mathphile $(2n)!!=2^n\cdot n!$, right?
'Cause you can pull a 2 from each term
and $(2n-1)!!=\dfrac{(2n)!}{(2n)!!}$
So, and I don't know if this'll help but I can hope, what happens if you rewrite your sum using that?
 
 
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