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12:17 AM
Any resident set-theorist around here?
I have a boring question
 
@FernandoMartin I am a professional set theorist
 
Good to know
 
I have lots of theories about sets
 
Well, here's the question if any of you is interested
 
12:49 AM
@TedShifrin We both know that if a smooth manifold has a nonvanishing vector field, then $\chi(M)=0$. I seemed to remember the converse was true but forgot how to prove it. Turns out it's the very last proposition of Bredon... guess I never learned in the first place :P
 
1:26 AM
@Thursday thanks for the trivia :-)
 
I'm being asked if $\neg \exists x\in\mathbb{R} (\forall y\in\mathbb{R} ( x > y))$ is true "as written"
is there any reason that should be different from $\forall x\in\mathbb{R} (\exists y\in\mathbb{R} (x\leq y))$ being true?
or am I over-analyzing the words used to ask the question here
 
link please
 
link to what?
 
the question
 
He handed it out on paper
it appears he typeset it himself
 
1:36 AM
oh, i see
 
it was a multipart question, first to simplify the negation, and then, as a follow-up, it asked if, in case "(2)" (the second negation asked about, reproduced above), the negation is true as written.
"why or why not"
$\neg \exists x\in\mathbb{R} (\forall y\in\mathbb{R} ( x > y))$ seems to be false when spoken verbally, yet its simplification $\forall x\in\mathbb{R} (\exists y\in\mathbb{R} (x\leq y))$ seems to be true?
err, it's still true as spoken on the left too?
 
Hello Professor @TedShifrin
 
2:05 AM
Is my interpretation here accurate?:
$\neg \exists x\in\mathbb{R} (\forall y\in\mathbb{R} ( x > y))$ says "there does not exist an $x$ in $\mathbb{R}$ for all $y$ in $\mathbb{R}$ such that $x>y$", which is true because there does not exist a single real number that is greater than than all real numbers.
 
2:21 AM
ok I am happy with this I guess if there is no issue
 
 
3 hours later…
5:48 AM
@GBeau Those are logically equivalent.
 
6:00 AM
wb
 
 
4 hours later…
Oops, latex error.
@Chris'ssis @robjohn @N3buchadnezzar @rehband @r9m $c_{k, n}$ be the number of integer partitions of $k$ in exactly two parts, each of size exactly $n$.
Lesson 1 : Don't underestimate number theory.
Lesson 2 : Don't underestimate me, in particular.
Lesson 3 : Next time, @Chris'ssis, you might want to post something a wee bit harder. =p
That's all folks.
 
Lesson 0: never forget where you came from :-)
 
@skullpatrol ?
I came from India and I do recall that very well =D
 
10:32 AM
@BalarkaSen Hahah :D Good job
 
@BalarkaSen, @skullpatrol very good (y)
 
@Vrouvrou what is (y)?
 
11:05 AM
@skullpatrol it is this
 
 
1 hour later…
12:10 PM
@skullpatrol I think I won't talk to Robusto again, lol. Did you see the conversation between him and me yesterday?
 
yes
 
Any comments?
 
well, he was within his rights to be annoyed
i don't talk with him much
 
Maybe I am slowly beginning to see his true colours.
 
him and kit are a lot alike
very sarcastic
 
12:13 PM
Kit won't talk to me like that. I don't like his attitude. I will ignore him from now.
 
good
 
Kit cares, but Robusto doesn't seem to care about people.
 
ya, he is cold
 
Actually, I have problems with some other Eng chat folks too, but I won't name them. There are a few big egos in there.
 
Indeed.
Matt is the best
 
12:23 PM
@BalarkaSen I can understand a partition of $k$ into exactly two parts, but how does each of those have size exactly $n$? If I ignore the one term with the $c_{k,n}$, the rest of your derivation looks good.
 
@robjohn True dat
 
@skullpatrol Yeah, but that seems to have been mistranslated.
 
@robjohn he took it too literally
 
@JasperLoy That happens... almost everywhere.
@skullpatrol indeed, that is why I put it more bluntly :-)
 
Chris'ssis is late...
 
 
1 hour later…
1:40 PM
@robjohn Like, for example, in a free partition $2n = (2n - 1) + 1$ is allowed. But when the sizes of the parts are restricted to $n$, $2n = n + n$ is the only possible partition.
$c_{k, n} = k - 1$ when $k \leq n$. $c_{k, n} = 2n - k + 1$ when $2n \geq k > n$
@robjohn I was kidding, though, don't take it too literally.
=)
 
@robjohn Have you seen Gelbaum's Modern Real and Complex Analysis? Seems to contain a ton of topics.
 
2:17 PM
What is an indefinite sum?
 
2:39 PM
$$\zeta (n)=\lim_{s\to 0} \, \left(\sum _s \frac{(s+1)^{-n-1}+s-1}{s}\right)-\lim_{s\to 0} \, \left(\sum _s \frac{(s+1)^{-n+1-1}+s-1}{s}\right)$$
for $n$ a positive integer.
Does anyone know how to generalize it to the whole complex plane?
Clear[n, s]
Monitor[Table[
FullSimplify[
Limit[Sum[((s + 1)^(-n - 1) + s - 1)/s, s], s -> 0] -
Limit[Sum[((s + 1)^(-n - 1 + 1) + s - 1)/s, s], s -> 0]], {n, -1,
12}], n]
Should I post on main?
 
2:55 PM
@BalarkaSen Generally the partitions ones are interested in are, say, the ones in which the number of terms is bounded (above or below), or the size of the terms, etc...
Oh, I see the context now. Cute.
 
@MikeMiller Am glad that you like it.
@MikeMiller Are you still writing that answer of yours?
 
3:17 PM
@BalarkaSen Haven't started yet.
It's nothing exceptional. It's an explicit computation for p-groups, and then a bound on what happens when you multiply p-groups together.
 
@MikeMiller Answer to what?
 
@DanielFischer This question
 
@BalarkaSen I am being dense here... how do you partition any $k$ but $2n$ into exactly two parts with size exactly $n$?
 
I probably shouldn't be the one to write it, because the friend I was working with made the final essential calculation
 
3:30 PM
@DanielFischer (If you care, the answer is that for your favorite positive $\varepsilon$, there's an $f \in O\left(x^{4+\varepsilon}\right)$ such that $|\text{Aut}(G \times G)| = f\left(\left|\text{Aut}(G)\right|\right)$ for any abelian group $G$. I've no idea about how things play in general.)
 
@MikeMiller Does the number of automorphisms of $G\times G$ only depend on the number of automorphisms of $G$ for abelian groups?
 
Oh, another typo.
That's a $\leq$.
 
That is more like I expected.
 
I'm glad to see it's all polynomial, though.
 
@MikeMiller finite abelian group, right?
 
3:36 PM
@DanielFischer I don't believe infinite groups exist.
(Yes.)
 
@MikeMiller Has the great Yu infected you?
 
@DanielFischer Not that profoudndly.
 
@robjohn Oops, I meant size at most $n$, hehe.
Sorry.
Typo.
 
@DanielFischer Do you know $|\text{Aut}(S_n \times S_n)|$? Because I don't, and google isn't helping :P
 
@MikeMiller For small enough $n$.
 
3:40 PM
Ah, but I want the complement of that.
I suspect small enough means $n \leq 2$ here, too.
 
$n \leq 2$, yeah.
 
I know the order for $n=3$, too. :P
 
Well, yes. I could find out for $n = 3$ within reasonable time, but beyond that, I wouldn't even want to start.
 
I wonder if it would be crass to post that as a question.
 
Not if you include some of your own thoughts about it.
 
3:45 PM
My thoughts are roughly "I bet it's big."
I'm hoping it's less than $c(n!)^4$ for some constant $c$.
 
@MikeMiller Well, there is $\mathbf{Aut}(S_3 \times S_3) \hookleftarrow \mathbf{Aut}(S_3) \times \mathbf{Aut}(S_3) \cong S_3 \times S_3$.
Why shouldn't I believe that it's an injection?
You're right.
 
@BalarkaSen It is.
 
@MikeMiller That's interesting.
Why shouldn't one believe that $S_n \times S_n$ is complete then?
 
Complete?
 
Google complete groups.
 
3:49 PM
@BalarkaSen Why should one believe it's complete?
 
@MikeMiller Credo quia absurdum.
 
@BalarkaSen Anyway, there are non-inner automorphisms: consider $(a,b) \mapsto (b,a)$.
 
Hmmm.
 
@BalarkaSen I would expect quite a few autos.
 
@BalarkaSen I'm sorry I have to do this to you, but I have to pause my hobby project for a bit to pay for my house
So unless you'd like to pay to keep a roof over my head, I can't afford to put the next few days into that math library
 
4:23 PM
@TedShifrin Pretty sure it's working. Also, about yesterday's group theory question: you said consider $GL_2$. Would upper- (or lower-) triangular matrices work? They contain the center, but I'm pretty sure they're not normal in $GL_2$.
 
@AndrewG Sure, those aren't normal.
 
woot woot
 
Prove it!
 
I can conjugate an upper triangular matrix to one with no 0s. It's just picking a different basis for the transformation, one that isn't particularly "nice", right?
 
Sure. Easiest way is picking the upper triangular with all 1s, then swapping the basis elements to get the lower triangular with all 1s.
 
4:37 PM
Spiffy.
 
 
1 hour later…
r9m
5:40 PM
@BalarkaSen Nice !! =)
 
5:51 PM
@BalarkaSen Oh, that makes more sense.
@r9m I knew an answer could be gotten without integration. Wasn't that a question Chris's sis posed in chat?
 
r9m
@robjohn @Chris'ssis posed the $\displaystyle\sum_{k=1}^{\infty }\left(\Psi^{(1)}(k)\right)^3$ one =)
 
@r9m ah... missed the exponent by one
 
r9m
@robjohn she asked all $2,3,4$ later on :)
@robjohn immediately (+1)ed .. steps $(3),(4),(5)$ are awesome :D .. I had to burn lot more wood just to arrive at $(6)$ .. :D !! ..
totally compact steps !
@robjohn I got inspired from the alternating binomial sum identity from this and computed au-yeung in another way !! :D
apparently this is another way of arriving at the identity with integration @Chris'ssis used to compute the series :) ..
 
6:22 PM
@r9m So she used integration to get the sums? I prefer manipulating the sums if possible, but sometimes it is necessary to use an integral for these sums.
 
r9m
@robjohn of all the ways I have derived the integral representation of the terms .. Kneser's proof seems to be the key idea (atleast that's how I did it .. manipulating the integrals/series and connecting it to Kneser's proof :) .. )
@robjohn can you delete the binomial identity above .. she asked me not to show it .. :P
 
Why does the \cancelto{...}{...} command not work in the chat, but does in the second answer to this question?
 
r9m
6:42 PM
@robjohn thank you =)
 
@r9m Sorry it took so long. I was afk
@Khallil because you can use \require{cancel} in an answer, but I don't think you can use it in chat
 
r9m
=)
 
Yes, that's it! Thank you, @robjohn.
Hey, @r9m. ^_^
Did you see the latest Naruto chapter, @r9m?
 
@MickLH haha, OK. that's fine.
@r9m Thanks.
 
r9m
7:35 PM
@Khallil ya .. :) but nowadays I have a feeling they are just making minor changes to the fan made colored versions of the manga and putting it into the anime frame with background music and special sound effects :P
I feel like it is deviating form the original Naruto anime style =(
 
I have no idea of what you mean, @r9m. Could you rephrase it?
(I was referring to the latest chapter, not episode.)
 
r9m
@Khallil oh! .. I haven't read the manga yet
@Khallil wait .. lemme see something ..
 
Oh, in that case, I know what you mean! I think the anime's been doing some great stuff.
I love canonical filler, especially the Sannin-cave scene, @r9m.
 
r9m
@Khallil yes that was great .. :)
 
You overuse '..' way too much, @r9m!
 
r9m
7:41 PM
@Khallil :P .....
 
@r9m I see that Chris's sis hasn't been here since yesterday morning. It is odd not to see her here. I assume she is off working on her book.
@Khallil If it's overuse, it's too much.
 
I didn't notice that tautology, @robjohn!
Are there any beautiful female mathematicians?
 
@Khallil Hypatia :P
 
7:59 PM
Hmm. How about beautiful female mathematicians that are alive?
 
@Khallil I dunno! :P
What county are you from Khalil?
 
8:12 PM
Have a guessm @rehband.
 
@Khallil Tunisia
 
Hi, Does anyone want to help with geometry? :P
 
@Thursday What is the one post you upvoted? Out of interest.
 
@Alizter I think is the post of Noam Elkies.
 
@Alizter Wait... you don't think Thursday = 900 pushups situps a day?
 
8:26 PM
Close, @rehband. Where are you from?
 
Germany.
 
@Khallil Germany. Hmm, u from Algeria?
 
Ha!
 
@BalarkaSen And you're from India? :D
 
@rehband Yes.
 
8:27 PM
@BalarkaSen Are you still a student, Barlaka Sen?
 
If by student you mean high-schooler, then yes.
 
@BalarkaSen Wow, you're still in high school? :O
 
I am. I failed 59 times in 9th grade, and my age is now 67.
 
@BalarkaSen Hahaha. You'll pass 9th grade eventually -- keep plugging away! :D
 
A better question would be where my ancestors are from. Unless you want to know where I live, @rehband.
For example, I could have been born in Ireland, but live in India and say that I'm Indian.
 
8:31 PM
@Khallil Ok, let's hear where you live first
 
Loads of Irish people stayed in India once.
 
Really?
 
Yeah.
 
What were they doing there?
 
*What were
 
8:32 PM
I mean, not now. They got mixed up with Indians years ago.
@rehband I dunno. My knowledge on history is almost comparable to a nullset.
 
@BalarkaSen Fair enough
 
But I can tell you that there's a whole novel about that.
It's quite famous here.
 
Sounds super boring :P
 
It was a good one though.
I read bits of it.
Ever heard of "Tagore"?
 
Is the novel about the null set, thereby implying that you have an extensive knowledge of history, @BalarkaSen?
 
8:35 PM
@BalarkaSen No, I don't think so
 
@Khallil no no
@rehband Fair enough. He is a Nobel Laurette.
 
@BalarkaSen Nice, just googled him
 
I live in @Balarka's house, @rehband.
 
smacks @Khallil
 
@Khallil Can I move in as well?
 
8:37 PM
Just to clarify, that was a physical smack, @rehband.
 
@Khallil Hehe
 
Oi.
 
@BalarkaSen They are the same person
no doubt
people change
there names
 
I knew it!
Better username this time I guess.
 
personally I think it is more catchy
and easier to write
 
8:39 PM
heh
 
he has an impressive rep for 4 months
 
So where do you actually live Khalil?
 
on that bloody british land
Which I will return to in two days
 
Right :)
 
Do you go to university in England, @Alizter?
 
8:41 PM
@Alizter how long have you been inside Turkey? you'll come out almost rotten or some such.
 
I know it's rather presumptuous, but your return seems to coincide with the start of term.
Be back in a bit.
 
@Khallil Hopefully soon. I am 16 atm
@BalarkaSen One month. And haha
school starts in 4 days
 
Hey guys, I've got a small (and basic) mathematics question
I'm reading Reed & Simon's book Functional Analysis and have reached the chapter on topological spaces. I noticed they talk about norms inducing a topology, but I don't quite understand how this 'happens'.
I'm wondering whether someone could put me on the right track - it's probably simple.
 
@Danu Have you studied topology or abstract algebra?
or even measure theory?
 
Pretty much just what's in R&S, I'm a student of physics trying to transition in to math. phys.
So I've seen a tiny bit of measure theory, metric spaces
 
8:57 PM
These kinds of mathematical structures are defined to have certain properties. They are talking about these properties arising from some construction or study. Thus they form the strucutre.
 
I've got a hunch, by the way:
The norm induces a metric
and that metric then defines open sets?
is that it?
 
That's pretty cool, @Alizter. You seem to be way ahead of people your age.
(The same goes for @BalarkaSen, but in India, I reckon they're on average, much more mathematically capable.)
 
For example @Danu Objects in physics are defined to have properties like mass. Now if you show that a thing has properties of and object then it is an object see where I am going with this?
 
@Khallil I dunno but our educational system is pretty bad.
 
@Khallil There are more gifted and talented students in india then students in the UK.
 
8:58 PM
@Alizter I think you're approaching my question on a level different from what I'm looking for
I understand mathematical reasoning - sufficiently at least
 
They make us study commerce and stat instead of math @Khallil
 
I am just asking how, in this particular example, the norm tells us which sets are open
 
@Danu Oh you mean how the norms actually serve a topological space?
 
yes!
Is it through the metric, as I just tried to outline?
 
Hmm. I have not that much under my belt to tell you that and also I would need to see the text. Best bet is to ask a question on the Main quoting the extract and explaining that you do not understand. People will help you if you show effort at trying tp understand. (mathematics main)
 
9:01 PM
It's a little annoying because I find this particular chapter of the book is rather lacking - e.g. they never even defined convergence in the topological space setting
so there's not a clean cut paragraph that I can quote
The issue I'm running into is rather because they don't explain :)
 
@Danu Unfortunately sometimes authors are lazy and assume that the reader could probably understand as it is trivial.
@Danu I'm sure if you explain that it is reading the chapter that is troubling you and explain what you know people will understand
 
Trivia, @Alizter?
 
@Khallil I edited. This is not a pub :)
 
I didn't want to bother with a question as I think it's a small point and my hunch seems reasonable
I just wanted a quick check
 
I'm pulling a math all nighter
 
9:04 PM
@Danu Nobody else is replying here atm so by the time someone here who is able to answer answers it would have been answered on the main. So go post the question and carry on with your reading. Then when answers come up you can go back and think.
 
I'm in the middle of a 24 hour math marathon
 
Is it for any particular reason, @rehband?
 
Usually rough inutition is enough to get you somewhat through a book instead of wasting time :)
 
@Khallil I wanna learn more and more and more! :P
 
@rehband Sleep is good. Do it well after or else your performance will be bad.
 
9:06 PM
@Alizter You're absolutely right :) I don't do this often :)
 
I admire your work ethic, @rehband. I'm extremely lazy. T_T
 
Coffee helps hehe
 
I always do math and rarely if ever sleep.
It's the middle of a night now.
 
@BalarkaSen What time is it there?
 
2:35 AM
 
9:08 PM
You live in the future
 
I play loads of games and watch even more anime. I should really start working soon.
 
@rehband It's Saturday here however. What is it there?
I hate the international time line.
 
It's Friday where I am.
 
@BalarkaSen Friday 23:09
 
Ah, I am in the future.
 
9:09 PM
What's gonna happen next in Germany, Barlaka?
 
@Khallil Did you get a place at a uni?
 
@Thursday Here is an interesting username suggestion for you : "Friday the thirteenth"
@rehband The wrecked name. Balarka, not Barlaka.
It's super shufflable.
 
I did indeed, @Alizter.
 
Don't deteriorate yourself over the gap year.
 
@BalarkaSen Sorry!
 
9:11 PM
No problem.
 
Don't worry, @rehband. I always think of this whenever I see @BalarkaSen's name.
I start in October, @Alizter!
 
bangs head
3
 
hello, is the composition of two inclusion still an inclusion ? please
 
@Khallil Was this year your gap year?
 
@Khallil Haha
 
9:12 PM
Mhm, @Alizter.
 
@Khallil Then still a whole month is plenty to lose your mental sharpness. Don't throw yourself into a snake pit without wall climbing skills before you start.
Hello @Thursday
 
Who's to say I had the wall climbing skills in the first place, @Alizter?
 
@Khallil The fact that you got into a uni shows this
 
@Alizter :D:D
 
You missed something, @Alizter. 'Shows this ... is clearly not the case.'
=P
 
9:14 PM
I am correct in thinking that $\{ x \}$ is never negative, right? I always get confused with negative fractional parts.
 
@Alizter Hi; yes, my only upvote so far was on the answer by Noam Elkies.
 
hi please someone give me an answer
 
@Thursday I like your review chrome extension btw
 
$\{ x \} = x - \lfloor x \rfloor$, @BalarkaSen. Yes, it's never negative.
 
@Thursday Ah, Elkies's answers are jems.
 
9:15 PM
@BalarkaSen The 30-day limit on name changes makes it difficult to keep track of the days of week. I was in sync yesterday, not anymore. Considering a switch to month-based names.
 
@robjohn is the composition of two inclusion still an inclusion ? please
 
@Thursday If you are particularly lazy Seasons may be in order?
 
9:41 PM
@BalarkaSen Say something interesting
 
@Alizter what do you want me to say?
 
@BalarkaSen Anything
 
I am a bit busy with an Olympiad problem.
@Alizter I haven't been thinking about a lot algebra these days.
Just some number theory.
 
@BalarkaSen What/where the problem
 
@Alizter Solve in reals $$\frac{1}{\left\lfloor{a}\right\rfloor}+\frac{1}{\left\lfloor{2a}\right\rfloor}‌​=a-\left\lfloor{a}\right\rfloor+\frac{1}{3}$$
I have finished a positive proportion of it.
 
9:45 PM
How would solving in $\Bbb C$ even work?
is the floor function defined for $\Bbb C$?
 
Deduced the solutions $29/12$, $19/6$, $97/24$ for $\lfloor 2a \rfloor = 2 \lfloor a \rfloor$
The only thing remains is to show that there are no solutions for $\lfloor 2a \rfloor = 2 \lfloor a \rfloor + 1$
@Alizter I dunno. I am just writing out the problem as given.
The latter case is what I am having trouble with. Should be nothing more than a bit of an algebra, but it's almost dead of a night here in my defense.
 
@BalarkaSen Clearly the RHS is odd
 
@Alizter yes, that means no negative real solution.
LHS is even.
been there done that
 
Ok
@BalarkaSen Sleep on it. Ramunajan it. Wake up and solve it.
 
Bleh. No thanks.
I get the most brilliant ideas when I am awake at night.
What I am doing is just manipulation.
 
9:51 PM
@BalarkaSen Split cases for fractional part?
 
What d'you mean?
OK, nevermind, I got it.
 
say the fractional part is $k$ check the cases $k < 1/2$, $k=1/2$ and $k > 1/2$ with $|k|<1$
 
'Twas simple enough.
@Alizter Been there done that.
$k < 1/2$ implies $\lfloor a \rfloor = 2 \lfloor a \rfloor$ and $\lfloor 2a \rfloor = 2 \lfloor a \rfloor + 1$ otherwise.
Anyways, don't bother. I have got it.
 
For a sequence x_n and a in R, then a is a subsequential limit of x_n if and only if for all e>0 , there exists infinitely many n in N with |x_n - a| < e . Does this have antyhing to do with the sequence x_n being frequently on the set {a} ? Does the consequent of this implication have anything to do with a being a supremum/infimum of any set ?
I'm trying to discover what "for all e>0 , there exists infinitely many n in N with |x_n - a| < e" really means, that is, equivalent statements to it .
 
@BalarkaSen ok
 
9:58 PM
@nerdy I think $a$ is a accumulation point of $(x_n)_n$
 
@BalarkaSen What do you mean no solutions
 
Ian Mateus, yes accumulation point is the same as subsequential limit
 
@Alizter I mean if $\{a \} \geq 1/2$ then there are no solutions to the equation.
 
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