The Bridge

Memor-X

12:13 AM

Playstation Showcase Summarry

SPArcheon

7:43 AM

@Memor-X yeah, well... right now I am waiting just for one specific PS5 game.

and Square can keep theirs Final May Cry 16 for themselves

And now, announcing the "Cringe ads of the year" winner

WAR THUNDER ANIME ADS!

30 VO LT BONUS EN

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War Thunder's Anime Ad

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@Fredy31 Every Archeon has the name of a demon

Barbados, Baal, Buer, Morax - all demon names.

This is precisely why some claims that Genshin plot is based on 50% gnosticism, 50% book of Enoch.

Take by comparison the plot of El Shadday which is also (partially) based on the Book of Enoch.

Enoch is sent on Earth to seek 7 fallen angels that have rebelled. Each one has created a "world" separated from the influence of God.

Does this remind you of anything?

7 nations, the lies of this world, the "false sky"...?

Now go a little further and read the gnosticism page on Wikipedia

> In many Gnostic systems, God is known as the Monad, the One.[note 18] God is the high source of the pleroma, the region of light. The various emanations of God are called æons.

so, the "real God" created some "Aeons".

The final "Aeons" are often considered "Twins" in gnosticism. And they are Sophia and.. Jesus (yes, gnosticism apparently considers Jesus one of many Aeons).

What is relevant is that "Sophia" separated from Jesus is considered the origin of the "Demiurge"

Now... have us by any change got some siblings with one of the two ending up helping the "bad guys"?

About the Demiurge

> who is sometimes ignorant of the superior god, and sometimes opposed to it; thus in the latter case he is correspondingly malevolent

> The demiurge creates the physical universe and the physical aspect of humanity.[84] The demiurge typically creates a group of co-actors named archons who preside over the material realm and, in some cases, present obstacles to the soul seeking ascent from it.[69] The inferiority of the demiurge's creation may be compared to the technical inferiority of a work of art, painting, sculpture, etc. to the thing the art represents.

Now... let's see....

The "False God" creates a world that is a "copy" of God creation, and has 7 archeons helping them. The souls in the realm are "prevented from ascending", thus trapped in a cycle...

Again, do we by chance have anything similar in genshin? I don't know, something about 7 powerful gods? Samsara cycles?

Now, you have to consider a final point.

This is not "western religions" nor "western gnosticism".

It is western religions filtered thru an Asian media

By which I mean... Are you familiar with things like Evangelion, Devil Man etc?

That's what happens when Japan tries to make an anime that uses western religions elements....

what I mean is that you should NOT expect anything 100% coherent. Instead you will be looking at a soup made of 93% Gnosticism, 6% Ars Goetia, 4% Shintoism, and 2% butterscotch ripple.

Memor-X

9:14 AM

@SPArcheon yeh you'll have to wait for that

@SPArcheon *sigh* funny that Devil May Cry used to be made fun of being called Resident Evil May Cry before it came out

and look how different those 2 series ended up

SPArcheon

@Memor-X you prefer Gatsu Fantasy 16?

God of War Fantasies 16?

Soul Fantasies 16? Dragon Age Fantasies 16? Because outside the character looking quite similar to a certain DMK protagonist, I am mostly lamenting the generic "D&D fantasy" art style

Bluntly put, I would prefer a new Magic Knight Rayearth game.

Memor-X

@SPArcheon no, just pointing out that the last time Devil May Cry was related to mocking a game, it ended up disproving the nay-sayers who made the false comparisons

SPArcheon

@Memor-X By contrast, I was kinda mocking the ones who blatantly try to look like they don't get why some players say that FF16 --ART STYLE / LOOK -- feels "westernized".

@Memor-X Also by parallel last time Sega tried to make "Sonic" games more edgy, violent and dark... Shadow the Hedgeog came out and we are still trying to forget it existed :P

Memor-X

9:29 AM

@SPArcheon yes, because since it's Final Fantasy it's got to look Japanese and thus have Samurai, people wearing hakama and pagoda towers otherwise it's "westernized". not allowed to be inspired from anything made in west. it's got to only be inspired by japanese things

SPArcheon

9:41 AM

@Memor-X yeah, and this is exactly the "not getting what they mean" part.

Memor-X

then how is it "westernized"? because there was inspirations from Game of Thrones?

SPArcheon

@Memor-X "-- ART STYLE / LOOK --"

you can claim this is not 100% true and that is why Berserk was mentioned just before, but you have to admit that on average when people think of "western fantasy" they think of thinks with this kind of look.

Memor-X

and what does that means exactly, "western fantasy", Knights? Castles?

SPArcheon

and when they think of "japanese fantasy" they think about this art style and vibes.

Memor-X

@SPArcheon you understand that Final Fantasy XVI uses 3D rendered characters right? it's not a series that has a defined artist style that has to be adhered to like Dragon Quest or One Piece

SPArcheon

9:52 AM

@Memor-X re-read the line above again.

and then again if it helps. Sorry, but you do appear to be missing the point. Not here to be telling you what you should like. I am telling you that ON AVERAGE players tends to associate "JRPG" to an art style similar to Sword Art Online, older Tales of, Dragon Quest, Rayearth, Ni No Kuni etc, while the "more realistic" art style is often associated to "western" production.

Memor-X

and they don't make JRPGs

Japanese developers have been making RPGs

even the developers have said this

SPArcheon

@Memor-X And... where does the line above say the opposite?

Again, this is not about "the truth" - if it even exist as something totally objective.

Memor-X

@SPArcheon when you're trying to darw a distinction that Final Fantasy has been "westernized" based off from what is defined as a "JRPG" when the dveelopers were never making that

SPArcheon

It is about explaining why people call the game "westernized".

Memor-X

and outside of Tales, all of those games either were based off from an existing IP which already had a look to it or an artists who has a defined style

SPArcheon

9:59 AM

@Memor-X and again I fear that the line above doesn't say that either.

Memor-X

ok, at what point has Final Fantasy games ever had that kind of style

SPArcheon

@Memor-X oh, that is actually kinda a good point to make. And that is another dissonance in perceptions.

See for example this:

How Terra was planned.

Memor-X

and you'll find that alot of that artwork was never in the games

SPArcheon

how the Anime infused eyes of fans draw her:

Memor-X

because anime fans tend to develop an art style similar to what they watch and what they are comfortable when drawing

SPArcheon

10:07 AM

what they actually showed you.

@Memor-X that. And then you can also make the same inference I have been making from the start.

Memor-X

@SPArcheon nope because that would require me projecting a style that the game does not have

SPArcheon

Most of the "fantasy" anime look like Konosuba or Sword Art Online. The "realistic" ones like Berserk or Bastard! are a minority. So *on average* the anime fan will - to use your word - watch the first category and "develop an art style similar to / be comfortable with" that. Even if there is no rule, for them "Bastard" will be the different one and Sword Art Online the standard.
When looking at "rpg" games these same individual won't really find a "sword art online" style game from "western" developers, so they will look at Japanese / Asia games. And they will look for what they know.

Result: in their head Neptunia is JRP, FF16 is "Western Dragon Age".

Clear now?

and once again I beg your attention on the fact I nowhere said that is correct or that you should think the same.

Memor-X

and those people are clearly in the wrong because they are projecting onto the game what it isn't

SPArcheon

I am just saying that it is kinda easy to see what they meant.

Memor-X

and when it doesn't meet this false projection, it's suddenly "westernized"

and then using that to try and dismiss the game like you were earlier doing with "Final May Cry 16"

SPArcheon

10:19 AM

@Memor-X and yet it doesn't change a thing. "A rose by any other name is still a rose", and they won't still buy the game since it is not what they want.

they may even call it "globatorox" and it would be the same.

Memor-X

@SPArcheon they weren't going to buy the game from the start

SPArcheon

@Memor-X also correct. And I also expect they will rant either way.

Memor-X

and to which the response is generally "who the fuck asked"

SPArcheon

Also consider that this "unmet expectation" already had a recent victim

Memor-X

umm, what?

Tales of Arise was a commercial success

SPArcheon

10:26 AM

@Memor-X caused the exact same ranting

"Westernized / Realistic" Tales of.

Again, average expectation for Tales probably was defined by previous titles - that in this case had a common art style.

Memor-X

@SPArcheon and obviously people saying that are talking shit

they've likely never played it, looked at what themes the story covers, don't like it and scream "westernization"

SPArcheon

@Memor-X A suggestion. I would look far less into "words" and be more about the ideas those words convey.

While they may use words you don't consider 100% accurate, the idea they are expressing is still there. They associated the series with something and now that it is not there they prefer moving to something else.

Memor-X

so then "westernized" is just the games version of "woke", used for [i don't like the thing but don't have the mental capacity to debate it properly]

SPArcheon

@Memor-X nope, there is a clear reason for that.

Memor-X

which is?

SPArcheon

10:32 AM

It is another side concept that gets tied in.

Again, I warn you - VERY imprecise.

Memor-X

no it's just people who don't know what they are talking about

if "Westernized/Realistic" is that broad of a term for criticism, it is just like "woke"

SPArcheon

^ basically this, mixed with "too old for Fairy tales"

Memor-X

so localization

the complaints bout Tales of Arise is localization

SPArcheon

@Memor-X Not just localization. Value dissonance

It is perceived that "Japan" can be more "unicorns and rainbow" than "America"

Memor-X

by weebs

SPArcheon

10:40 AM

And that America (=="western") tries to make everything "edgy".

Memor-X

idiots who think Japan is an Anime Heaven because they aren't able to tell the difference between "anime" and real life

@SPArcheon but for Tales, if it;s it "Edgy" it's been like that for many games

so again it's people who don't know what they are talking about

SPArcheon

@Memor-X on that specifically I would disagree. America is the one that mass produces "soldier with gun goes pem pem on enemies and wins because he is alpha male" trash movies. That trash does not seem to exist in Japan, but it may just be what WE feel as "external observers".

That said, I never saw a version of Rambo made by Kurosawa.

Memor-X

Armor Hunter Mellowlink

SPArcheon

Oh, by the way, before you get yet another wrong idea, I kinda love Doom 2, but I wouldn't want a "Doom RPG" (and to be fair I even actually played the official one. It just doesn't work"

Memor-X

also "trash movies", "That trash does not seem to exist in Japan" is entirely subjective

SPArcheon

10:46 AM

@Memor-X sorry, that on me. Didn't meant to include the "actually good ones" like Rambo in the list.

It is just that America does indeed seem to mass produce "super soldier" movies, with a resulting decline of the average quality.

Same as America mass producing sitcoms that just revolves around constant sex-jokes.

To the point it even gets in the title of the show.

> Sex and the City

Memor-X

as opposed to a series about a group who reviews brothels

SPArcheon

@Memor-X that was banned everywhere as it deserves and correct me if I'm wrong was suspended in Japan too?

yep, not exactly the example I would make.

Memor-X

except no all that happened was that TV stations stop airing it

series still got produced and released in full

SPArcheon

@Memor-X So I was not remembering correctly that it was suspended in Japan - just everyone refusing to work with them? Not much different :P And they still got banned in multiple other countries.

Memor-X

@SPArcheon no, just not airing it on TV

and not to mention the manga is still being translated offically

SPArcheon

10:55 AM

@Memor-X Look, I am quite sure it is fully banned at least somewhere - probably places like Korea, China or Australia. But at the same time I don't feel the urge to check any info about THAT anime, so I will leave at that on this one.

Atlas,to return to the original argument, what I DO think is odd is that when a series suddenly feels the "urge" to switch to "realistic" look (and by realistic I mean something like Tales of Arise VS Symphonia for example - if you can think of a better word I am open to suggestion) it is often associated to "next chapter is darker / more violent / has blood"

Memor-X

@SPArcheon have you played Symphonia?

SPArcheon

Because we know that a "cute" graphic can't be dark, cant' be violent, and can't have blood....

@Memor-X I DID! AND THAT IS WHY I FIND UTTERLY STUPID TO CLAIM THAT TALES OF ARISE IS DARKER STORY!

BUT .... It is the DEV WHO DO THAT.

"FF16 will be darker"

GOOD RIDANCE!

DARKER?

Memor-X

in comparison too?

SPArcheon

FF4 opens with you sent to exterminate a village because they are summoners!

CHILDREN INCLUDED

Memor-X

let be repherase, when the dev said that, it was in comparison to?

SPArcheon

11:02 AM

> Gematsu: So much of what we’ve seen so far of Final Fantasy XVI has been very dark in tone. Will there be any lighter elements to the game, either story-wise or gameplay-wise? Gameplay-wise, can we expect things like, minigames like fishing or blitzball? OK, obviously not blitzball, but the Final Fantasy XVI equivalent of blitzball—Cliveball.

Yoshida: “We have some very dark themes that the story revolves around. We have countries at war—we can’t really have some blitzball matches going on when people are killing each other. And then when you have this hero who’s talking about and driven…

Memor-X

like if you get Final Fantasy I, XVI is darker

SPArcheon

things like this.

Because you know. FF7 plot is sunshine and hugs. It is only because that that you can have a amusement park city with a boxing minigame

Memor-X

that's not "FF16 will be darker"

SPArcheon

that is just one example I have at hand now. Give me time, there are more if you really want.

Memor-X

that's "FF16 has dark themes in it like war so you're not going to have Blitzaball which was used as a distraction by the single world government in FF10"

even Wakka explains how Blitzball is used by Yevon to distract people about the despair Sin brings which is why it was ok for the Aurochs to pray for victory right after Sin wiped out a town

but the setting of Final Fantasy XVI doesn't allow for something like that

SPArcheon

11:09 AM

The weaver is the one who control the setting. And it is not like gameplay and story segregation does not exist, otherwise starting from disc 2 of FF7 you should play on a timer before Meteor falls.

other similar points from the web (I think I once saw the original interview this is about, will try to find it again)

> Mr Minoru Iwamoto took the stage and talked about the hardships of character design in this work, and according to him, there was a long road to completion, including a “Dark Souls”-like design during development. This is a summarized version that includes only the important points from the discussion, translated by the author of the article.

Memor-X

because Dark Souls is set in a dying world, like Final Fantasy XVI

SPArcheon

> Mr. Iwamoto was asked to do the initial design in a dark and mature atmosphere like “DARK SOULS” and “Game of Thrones”,

> Another cornerstone was that the team thought it would be a good idea to have a dark and gloomy atmosphere such as the Dark Souls series, but that would have meant loosing the essence of made “Tales of” the way it is, with its manga and anime like expressiveness.

@Memor-X this is about Arise.

Memor-X

my mistake

and i havn't play Arise yet so i don't know how dark the story gets, assuming it gets "dark" to some people's expectations

SPArcheon

now, I will try to look and find the actual interview, because it will be very funny if the team itself actually said "loosing the essence of made “Tales of” the way it is, with its manga and anime like expressiveness"

@Memor-X the point is that I don't get if they WANT to have a "realistic" FF / Tales of / whatever next series will get the idiot ball (please at least don't touch DQ) or they TOO are working out of expectation.

the point of American Kirby is Hardcore is not "localization" by itself.

Memor-X

except Final Fantasy has been what the producer thinks

SPArcheon

11:16 AM

It is that for some reason when reselling the same IP to the "WEST" they feel they need to make the character less "cute" and more "cool"

Memor-X

what people outside of that expect has got noting to do with what is made beyond projecting what they want and not getting it

SPArcheon

So, what I am really wondering is this "totally grow up we wouldn't never read Alice in Wonderland because that's for kids (like people watching MLP)" dev actually THINK that - in which case fine for them, we have different opinions but that just mean I will look somewhere else for games but we may still be friends or more probably...

Memor-X

and yet that last bit is contradicted by cheap pot shots like "and Square can keep theirs Final May Cry 16 for themselves"

SPArcheon

@Memor-X part two of the message missing see below.

Or more probably they are acting out of expectation trying to appeal a certain "market share" of people playing the realistic games like God of Wars, COD or even GTA (so cool! I can torture people in a game! Funny! Imma adult now!). In which case they aren't getting my sympathy at all.

And since the recent "trends" I am starting to hinge towards the second scenario.

Memor-X

yeh that's not happening

the team took inspiration from Game of Thrones and a bunch of other stuff like Attack on Titan, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Godzilla, Ultraman

and not sure how God of War is "realistic"

you're a spartan who's skin is unnaturally white due to it being the ashes of his wife and daughter he killed as a form of punishment, now going around killing Gods with anime levels of blood at times. none of that is "realistic" outside that Greece existed

the political motivations of Final Fantasy XVI's kingdoms might be something you could see irl, but at the same time it's under the backdrop of

- the world is dying
- Crystals are the only hope to survive
- military might is determined by people with god like powers

SPArcheon

11:52 AM

2 hours ago, by SPArcheon

@Memor-X "-- ART STYLE / LOOK --"

Memor-X

so anything with people in it is now "realistic"

SPArcheon

if this...

and this

both look "realistic" to you...

Memor-X

you're trying to compare an apple to a drawing of an orange

Kratos however looks about as Realistic as Snow from Final Fantasy XIII when i think of the graphic technology of the original trilogy

SPArcheon

@Memor-X Oh, so do I? insert Whis laugh here And why you call one a real apple while one is just a drawing?

Memor-X

@SPArcheon because that image of Chrono isn't rendered as a 3D model like Kratos

maybe i should have said a Rendered Apple to a Drawn Orange

it would be like comparing a Sprite of Firion to his 3D render in Dissidia

SPArcheon

12:03 PM

you asked for it....

Memor-X

a fan projection

SPArcheon

or, since in the end it is still Akira and Chrono is basically Goku SSJ God

Memor-X

because we have seen what Akira Toriyama's character would look like rendered

@SPArcheon if that's what it is then likely someone's projecting Goku onto Chrono

SPArcheon

Memor-X

and you can see the graphics style between the 2 are different

SPArcheon

12:09 PM

@Memor-X "really tempted to answer with that meme"...

Memor-X

the folds in Goku's outfit have pronounced lines which make it more of a match to the anime/manga while that Chrono one, despite the same look in the 2D images, it's not replicated, likely using a shadow map or something? not to mention the face is more rounded when when Goku's face shape is retained

SPArcheon

@Memor-X I guess a more intriguing point to discuss would be what would you call the "aesthetic" from the fan made Crono first picture and the second one (which BTW the author made in what THEY call "FF7 REMAKE" style)

or if you REALLY need something a little better than the Resurrection fan project...

this one VS the one just above

I think we can agree it is not just "technical limitation" or "not good enough artist".

They were going for clearly different "styles".

Memor-X

and people will bitch and moan about styles they don't like

SPArcheon

How do you call the one above and how would you call the one bellow?

Memor-X

impressive and nothing more

SPArcheon

12:17 PM

If you can answer me this then we can probably finds some words that won't end up with "anything with people in it is now realistic"

I would say the first one is Realistic and the second one Anime/Cartoonish/Animated/Toons/inseryourwordhere

but if you have better words, I am all ears

Memor-X

yes, characters

both characters look good

"realistic" is moot

make all of God of War in the same style as Chrono there, would it be a lesser game for it

i doubt it because it would likely play the same with the same plot, mechanics

Final Fantasy XII was "realistic" until graphics improved

likewise Final Fantasy VII

but now they wouldn't when the bar keeps moving

the whole "trying to appeal a certain "market share" of people playing the realistic" is actually just the shallow attempt to use graphics fidelity to cover for poor design

which Final Fantasy XVI isn't doing. it looks impressive yes but you're not finding alot of people who are getting it because it looks "realistic". they are getting it because they are interested in the plot or the gameplay

Final Fantasy XVI could look like XIII and people will still be wanting to get it

SPArcheon

@Memor-X oh, that can be true. Dev claimed that FF1 was supposed to be an attempt to D&D on console so it possible that they intended the characters to be realistic from the start. Yet they also have made some regards about old games plots and origins I am not really into believing to be fair.

Atlas, when your character is a mess of bits on a 16 bit console, don't expect your players to feel it like an ultra-realistic character

Especially if they are looking at Escaflowne, Fushi Umi No Nadia, Rayearth etc in the mean time

The fact that that mess of bits also had a visibly bigger head proportions, akin to the "chibi" art style does not help.

Trad: in the head of your so called "webs" those were chibi nendoroids.

and Square releasing them as such only worked against them

coincidentally that idea would then become this

but that is just a funny coincidence

BTW, tangentially...

Memor-X

12:37 PM

@SPArcheon no weebs are the people who impose their anime paradise of japan where anime is mainstream that you can talk to japanese people using anime terminology/tropes and be understood and anyone saying anything to dispel this hates japan even if they are born and live in japan

SPArcheon

compare the two Sora from the same game...

Memor-X

otakus on the other hand don't do this because they actually look up things instead of using anime as the Encyclopaedia of Japan

SPArcheon

@Memor-X hopefully as someone that actually went as far as to study TEA CEREMONY and would kinda have liked to continue that if it had been possible I hope to get put in the second group

That said, I will be honest and say that if you asked me If I would like to know more on a "rpg" game with characters that looks like this:

or this

I would choose the first one.

If they asked me about weapons as this:

or this

I would choose the first one.

between this....

Memor-X

@SPArcheon if you know that it is more than just sitting "japanes style drinking tea under sakura trees" you've done more work than weebs ever do

SPArcheon

@Memor-X Can't say if that is intentional but in this case you are indeed "comparing apples to oranges" since that is "drinking tea" not "chado"

Memor-X

12:52 PM

@SPArcheon lol, no it was more of an example i have seen

SPArcheon

Like, it is not just saying that Karate is "throwing punches" because in that case you actually realize there are punches involved.

It is like not even realizing that we are talking about a ceremonial rite and not just about "drinking matcha"

Memor-X

like one episode of Destination Flavour Japan, Adam Liaw went to a tea house i think and was explaining how the entryway is small because it was designed to make sure than any objects of status were left outside of the room so that Samurai, Lords and Farmers would enter the room as equals and that everything in the room is carefully chosen based on who is participating. i think there was something about the plant choice for Adam's case regarding the fact he had came from Australia

SPArcheon

@Memor-X It is somehow similar to people thinking Haiku is just metrics.

SPArcheon

3:35 PM

BTW, if you really want to know WHY the "Final May Cry" meme started....

@Memor-X this - gameinformer.com/feature/2023/02/28/…

And then, after the Toriyama's style "Goku beats everyone" question no one asked (see: who would win between Goku and Madoka, courtesy of anime room :P)...

Unionhawk

6:57 PM

Chat I now have 3 monitors on my desk at the office

I never come in to the office unless my desktop refuses to connect to the network after a restart

And my desktop only has 2 displayports

But I do have 3 monitors now

which is pretty cool

(they moved us into a locked room where IT Security used to live)

(so I also get to see some wild horizontal vertical horizontal setups of 3)

SaintWacko

7:29 PM

Ooh, fun

My best work setup was five screens

Spread across three computers linked by a program that let me use the same mouse and keyboard across all of them

I had my laptop running linux and two all-in-one monitors that I used for testing changes for the shop floor PCs in a couple configurations

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