The Bridge

8:00 PM

I've always understood ITG questions to be "I saw/heard/experienced X artifact in a context that suggests it comes from a game. Which game is it?" as opposed to "I have X artifact which may or may not be from a game, what's the source?"

Unionhawk

Which is still messy

Mage Xy

It's a very fine distinction, but an important one.

Honestly I'm in favor of banning identification questions outright, I don't think they really add a whole lot to the site. I think that might be an unpopular opinion though

Dragonrage

@senpai what exactly makes it "non-official"?

senpai

@Dragonrage Note the tags on specific posts have the red moderator-only tags

In this case, the one I cited is an official one because it is part of the FAQ for that specific line of questions

In Frank's case, he's merely posted a meta post he submitted with answers from others, but not officially accepted as community consensus

Unionhawk

to be fair the accept checkmark is a really bad tool on meta

senpai

8:06 PM

It's not the accept checkmark, it's the tag on it

For instance, I asked a meta question about the community's stance on adult video games

Dragonrage

@senpai oh i meant to add an answer to that. i finally got a reply from a cm about that

senpai

If I was a moderator, would that instantly make that post part of the officially accepted rules?

Frank

If you want a tag...I can do that.

@senpai 1) it wasn't instant

Dragonrage

@senpai im pretty sure @Frank asked that question before he was a mod?

Unionhawk

that is correct

senpai

8:08 PM

@Dragonrage Exactly my point.

Frank

2) I didn't start closing them as mod until after they started getting closed.

senpai

I don't see any evidence to suggest that his post is part of the official FAQ or any rules or site policy about asking those specific questions

Unionhawk

I think it's a fair piece of data to inform a close voter's decision though

Dragonrage

i blame @Wipqozn for not updating the FAQ

someone should do that

Unionhawk

after all, closure is a process of 5 people saying yes not some arbitrary checklist

senpai

8:09 PM

If he wanted to submit is an opinion piece, sure, but not as a "This is official" when it isn't official

Unionhawk

you know probably better than anyone on this website that moderation stuff is always a judgement call, never some clear bright line

senpai

No I don't, I'm pretty sure moderation is based on a set of rules and basing decisions off those rules

If moderation became a case-by-case basis sort of deal I don't think SE would exist the way it does today

"Up to moderator discretion" has never been the way the site's principles run on

Mage Xy

The site is community moderated, and a meta post about clarification of the rules, while perhaps not "official", is often a good guideline on how the general community feels about said rule.

Unionhawk

In any case, it seems likely that your question will remain open at this rate, we'll see how it does in the queue, but it is only at 2 votes right now.

Mage Xy

The post that Frank linked seems like most of the community believes that in cases like a sound file, there needs to be reasonable evidence that it does in fact come from a game.

senpai

8:13 PM

If his linked post is any indication of "general community consensus" then we have an incredibly small community making decisions for such a large site

I wouldn't call 10 upvotes on the highest rated answer, +8 on the question "most of the community"

Frank

Current vote weight suggests they should be closed.

senpai

33

Q: What are the requirements for asking a game identification question?

I want to ask about a game I don't know the name of. How should I do that?

Vote weight on this is higher, why aren't we using this as a baseline? I mean, it already is the baseline, considering it's the first link mentioned in the tag excerpt

Wrigglenite

This is the baseline

> Game-identification questions are okay only if you include screenshots, audio, or other tangible media from the game.

Prove that your artifact is from a game, and we can work with it

senpai

> Clarification: This distinction is based primarily on use case.

> We support the use case where someone sees or hears a thing that is clearly from a video game, and **wants to identify more concretely what video game it's from.**

Frank

What do you want, Retro? I can update that answer to include the restriction to reflect my meta post, but that's not what you're looking for.

If you want to make a case that we should accept them, you know where to do that.

senpai

8:16 PM

I want you to stop saying "this is official" which is baseless in reality. It ain't official. Quit throwing that term out if the post you're going to link is just an opinion piece yet to be accepted by the community

Frank

Your opinion is duly noted.

senpai

Many thanks

Dragonrage

@Frank technically you cant, because it has already been done

senpai

@Wrigglenite keyword is "wants to identify more concretely what video game it's from." This implies that 100% certainty of game is not required

Frank

@Dragonrage Well...what's the problem, then?

Unionhawk

8:18 PM

How does something become "accepted by the community"? Does it need 50 votes? Do we need to have a god damn featured referendum every time we want to clarify and interpret what the already written "clearly from a video game" means?

come on

senpai

Furthermore, we don't have any site consensus on how an asker with an audio artifact can sufficiently provide evidence that it is from a game

Mage Xy

From the close vote text:

> If you find a game in a video, advertisement, news article, movie and so on, and you have a picture, video/audio file, or other medium to point to, we can answer that.

Frank

@senpai That's a good argument.

Dragonrage

@Frank :shrug:

Mage Xy

You have to have some evidence that it comes from a game to begin with.

Frank

8:18 PM

I'd suggest fleshing that out as an answer.

Unionhawk

yeah that I buy, but "this +10/-1 answer is not good enough to me" is honestly dumb. Breaking news meta has low engagement

senpai

This is an audio file from a video game

Would that not count?

Sure, it's a community made map, but it's also within a video game

Frank

Community engagement and consensus has always been an issue for Meta. We do the best we can.

Unionhawk

@senpai I mean, but in context then the answer is "counter strike go"

murgatroid99

@senpai Because "it's from the community made CS:GO map you found it in" is not the answer you're looking for

Unionhawk

8:20 PM

which is obviously not what we're going for here

Frank

Currently, the vote says we close them. I won't touch it yet, but you know what your options are.

Mage Xy

I'm not 100% familiar with how maps are created, but the audio files could be from anything, right?

senpai

But that wouldn't be true, since you'd have to link the audio track that it's from

Dragonrage

@senpai why would that be any indication that it is from a different video game?

Mage Xy

I could make a map with the Barney theme song, that doesn't make the Barney theme song from a video game

Dragonrage

8:21 PM

i found this audio file in a video game, what other video games use this audio file?

Frank

@Dragonrage Audio-rec, ho!

senpai

And how is that against the question asking policy?

A), it's from a game, but certainty of the game is not clear or fully known

B), it's an audio artifact, not based on memory

Dragonrage

@senpai its from csgo, which you already know

Unionhawk

and is also not the question

senpai

@Dragonrage You're dodging the question

You can say it's from CS:GO all you like, but the reality is your answer will be downvoted because your proof will be non-existent

Visual artifacts are always supported by other visual artifacts

Audio artifacts are backed up by other audio artifacts

Dragonrage

8:23 PM

its a direct refutation of your point A. you already know its from csgo because you extracted the audio file from the game

senpai

I never said I had 100% certainty

Just like the FAQ states that "wants to identify more concretely what video game it's from"

Dragonrage

you dont have 100% certainty that the audio file is from the game you extracted it from?

senpai

No

How would you have 100% certainty

Dragonrage

because it was in the game?

senpai

Just like you said, a Barney song in a video game doesn't make that barney song from a video game

Unionhawk

8:25 PM

Okay what are you even talking about right now

Mage Xy

The Barney song thing is an example to explain that in this particular instance, you can't be sure that the audio is from a game because it's fan-made.

senpai

I think it's from a game, and that's enough to constitute "sufficient evidence it is from a game"

Unionhawk

No it isn't

user15026

....I can't even tell what people are even arguing anymore.

murgatroid99

There are two separate points here: we know the song is in a CS:GO custom map, because that's stated in the question. That fact is not evidence that the song also appears in any other game

Unionhawk

8:25 PM

Why would it be

Are you serious

senpai

Why would it need evidence that the song appears in any other game

Isn't that the point of asking

Dragonrage

@Unionhawk probably just trolling. im not going to waste my time anymore

murgatroid99

@senpai If, for example, you say "I found this song in a video game music compilation, what game is it from?" that would be sufficient evidence that it's from a game

Mage Xy

@senpai Because that's the entire point of debate. Besides the fact that you got it from a CSGO fan map (which we've already determined can use any audio file, regardless of gaming related or not), you have no other evidence that this file comes from a game other than your memory.

senpai

That's such an incredibly specific usecase though

user15026

8:27 PM

This is "I think it's from a game based on how I remember games" and that's something we're trying REALLY hard to eliminate.

Dragonrage

@senpai yeah. we only allow ITG questions in very specific use cases

murgatroid99

@senpai Our whole carveout for allowed ITG is an incredibly specific usecase

user15026

Because...it is very much "well you can't tell me my memory of this thing is wrong", which is...not helpful, long term.

user15026

ITG is specific on purpose.

senpai

Then where is this incredibly specific use-case? Don't see it linked in the FAQ

> "Game-identification questions are okay only if you include screenshots, audio, or other tangible media from the game."

user15026

8:29 PM

Does it just have to be linked in the FAQ somehow to make you happy? Is that the endgoal, here, that every social more we use has to be in a FAQ for it to be happily legitimized for you to not pick at it?

user15026

Because this feels like you're rules lawyering for the sake of causing argument, at this point.

murgatroid99

@yuritsuki We're going in circles at this point. The meta question linked above clarifies that rule. You don't accept the authority of that meta question/answer. The rest of us disagree with you on that point

yuritsuki

Here's the major problem I have with that linked question, supposing I do accept it

You've outlined what constitutes a good baseline for visual identification

but not audio identification

So the meta question only covers 1/2 of game-identification as a whole

Err, wrong way of putting it

THe meta question's most highly voted answer only covers 1/2 of game identification as a whole

Frank

@yuritsuki Game-id in general requires an incredibly specific use-case.

yuritsuki

Right, but even we have pretty clear distinctions on the types of game-identification questions that can be asked

Frank

8:32 PM

Either way, I think we're done here.

People can vote as they please, and you know your recourse, Retro.

yuritsuki

So you're just going to dodge the question?

What constitutes a good audio-artifact tied game-identification question?

Frank

We're going to stop going in circles. Unless others in the Bridge want to continue this, I'm going to call this closed.

user15026

@yuritsuki @murgatroid99 already gave an example above. shrugs

Unionhawk

Which I would say is also not a good question but it's at least probably on-topic

Mage Xy

@yuritsuki Solid evidence that it does come from a game. And "I extracted it from a fan-made map where people can put literally any audio file" does not count as solid evidence.

yuritsuki

8:35 PM

Cool, 1 example. So I guess the only viable audio-artifact question is only if the audio comes from a video game album compilation

user15026

....sure. Why not. Since we have somehow lost our ability to apply logic and need things spelled out everywhere.

murgatroid99

I think that's a good cue to second Frank's request to end this conversation

user15026

nods I'm going to yell silent retreat and run away on this.

user15026

(Well, actually, it's lunch time, so I'mma gonna go eat a food, but the idea holds.)

Private Pansy

@Ash What are you having for lunch?

We had mac and cheese and coca cola braised pork

Which I imagine must be the most American meal possible

user15026

8:40 PM

@PrivatePansy Leftover sausages with roasted peppers and onions, and garlic mashed potatoes

user15026

@PrivatePansy it's pretty up there, yes.

Frank

I tried KFC's BBQ Big Crunch.

Verdict: underwhelming.

Dragonrage

@PrivatePansy how about a hamburger with deep fried macaroni buns with a side of french fries topped with macaroni and hot cheeto dust?

user15026

I find I don't love their sandwiches as a thing. For me it's just like their chicken or bust

Unionhawk

@Dragonrage no

Private Pansy

8:41 PM

@Dragonrage Is deep fried macaroni a thing?

Frank

@PrivatePansy Yes.

Unionhawk

@PrivatePansy allrecipes.com/recipe/186033/fried-mac-and-cheese-balls

user15026

@PrivatePansy yep and here you can make your own myrecipes.com/recipe/fried-mac-cheese-bites

Frank

@Dragonrage Just get a poutine.

Unionhawk

@Frank that's pretty much the opposite of american

Dragonrage

8:43 PM

Unionhawk

which seems wrong all things considered but alas

user15026

@Dragonrage I am both surprised and not that this is a thign

Mage Xy

@Ash Deep fried ice cream is a thing too!

user15026

@MageXy I have had that! It's reasonably tasty

Dragonrage

@Unionhawk how is it not american? it has both a burger and deep fried foods combined

@MageXy deep fried soda too

user15026

8:44 PM

@Dragonrage I think he meant the poutine

Unionhawk

There's a place nearby that does creole poutine

user15026

What does that entail?

Unionhawk

dark roux chicken and sausage gumbo over fries with curds

Dragonrage

@Ash oic

user15026

@Unionhawk I'd try it.

Dragonrage

8:44 PM

@Ash its actually pretty good. ive had it before

Unionhawk

it's awesome

Frank

@Dragonrage True. But poutine is great.

Dragonrage

also, omelettes topped with a nice sausage gravy is pretty great.

Frank

Especially when it gets so freaking cold.

Dragonrage

@Frank but it uses brown gravy. brown gravy only goes with mashed potatoes and turkey

Unionhawk

8:46 PM

Yeah, and what are french fries

Trent Hawkins

I am not looking forward to the drive home today... Two inches (+) of snow, probably going 80 the whole way... 😣

Frank

@Dragonrage And fries.

And cheese.

Unionhawk

basically the same thing as mashed potatoes

Dragonrage

@Unionhawk fried potatoes

Frank

It's like...artery clogging insulation.

Dragonrage

8:47 PM

@Frank i prefer sausage gravy on my fries. with some tabasco sauce

Unionhawk

Honestly,

might be on to something

Yuuki

I had poutine when I was in Canada. Can't do cheese curds. Sorry but I'm lactose-intolerant thus I never developed a taste for cheese, so I can't do cheese curds.

Frank

@Dragonrage You ain't wrong.

I bet poutine could be made with sausage gravy instead of beef gravy.

@Yuuki How about regular cheese?

Dragonrage

sausage gravy is good on so many things. its amazing

Frank

Cream gravy is pretty good, too.

But that might be just a Mennonite thing.

Dragonrage

8:49 PM

growing up my mom would just make a big pot of sausage gravy and serve it over homemade biscuits. still one of my favorite meals