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8:00 PM
i've only been around for/paid attention to the last one, and i don't recall any real drama.
actually, that's not true
was it john o's nomination that got removed?
Oh, yeah. I guess there was that.
That should have been my big speech.
@JackBNimble there's been a distinct lack of... I'll say "comradery" for lack of a better word... Among some of the most active members here lately, and I fear this election has made it more apparent. Folks seem unusually terrified of the wrong people getting their hands on a diamond.
well, we all know that being a mod is only 2 promotions away from being king/queen of the universe.
@phantom42 Thanks, now I've got that Queen song from Highlander stuck in my head.
8:10 PM
what with jack always saying we're dead to him, just imagine if he got hold of the infinity gauntlet
It is like being in the Cabinet. You are in-line for the presidency, even if it 20 rungs down the ladder.
@phantom42 It reminds me of the difference between a local election for city clerk and for school board. The former is a job with... in theory a bit of power, and in practice mostly a lot of drudgery. The latter is a job where OMG THAT EVIL PERSON IS GONNA RUIN MY KIDS THEY MUST DIIIIIIE!
School board is where the real governing happens. According to Jed Bartlett.
On a related note...
I am so, SO tired of all of these posts about the SciFi election that try to pretend to not be about the SciFi election. Can SOMEONE please just make a post on Meta SciFi about the election wherein they come right out and say what they don't like about someone running, and then ask us all for a good therapist recommendation so they can get over it and we can go back to talking about whether Watership Down is on-topic or not? — Shog9 ♦ 1 min ago
thanks for linking that. now i can upvote it twice
8:19 PM
@Null what high rep users have been leaving? I've seen that mentioned a few times, but I haven't seen what makes you believe that there's more than the usual rate of people just moving on because they have other priorities
I think one of our nomination questions had a list?
5 hours ago, by rand al'thor
Jeff, Tango, DavRob60, dlanod, Izkata, Kyle Jones spring to mind
@MikeEdenfield ah, no, a comment
@Keen - Well, Slytherincess, Tango and Thaddeus certainly fit the criteria. DVK has just quit the site, Jeff hasn't been around for a while either. That's certainly more than "1-2 users". — Richard Jan 20 at 21:11
Although, I'm fairly certain Tango just became less active for his own reasons.
And if DavRob60 became less active because of a mod, this is the first I've ever heard of it.
Jeff hasn't been around for... a couple of years or more? I think he just went on to do other things. I think he was gone before the last election.
sly has said her lack of participation has been due to question quality and lack of new material in her favorite franchises
8:22 PM
@JackBNimble And it wouldn't fit what I've seen of him. Ditto Tango and Slytherincess.
in Mos Eisley, Jan 21 at 14:50, by Slytherincess
I think a lack of new canon has affected my activity on the site -- most of the new questions are either dupes or of poor quality. Poor quality questions are a huge turn off when it comes to SFF. Just curious why you're asking? (It's fine that you're asking, of course0
@Keen Princes of the Universe?
@Gilles I was trying to remember the names of someone who wasn't suspended :)
@Gilles but as I recall, the list turned out to be "some people who answer less and one guy that rage quit"
So, people move on.
8:24 PM
Why are you looking for someone to blame then?
we aren't.
well, I'm not. I dispute the premise entirely.
@NapoleonWilson That's the one.
@MikeEdenfield Richard obviously is, and it seems that Null is too
but certain people are trying to make a big deal out of it because they want to pain the current moderator team as bad peepz.
i dont think null is. there is another user who is, though.
8:25 PM
@Gilles Well, we mods are culpable, since we rarely use our power to force people to be active on the site.
as far as I know, there's one user that actually fits into that criteria, and even then it seemed as if his "reason for leaving" was blown out of proportion.
I promise a zero loss rate in participation. I will go to these peoples' homes and FORCE them to participate.
@MikeEdenfield Sachin and DVK also blame the mods, but that's their permanent state, they've been doing that since day 1
darth melkor/jimmy shelter rage quit seemingly largely due to issues with a specific mod.
which is sort of the definition of irony in this conversation
@Gilles also... DVK was still active on the site as recently as a week ago or so.. so I wasn't ready to count him in there yet.
8:28 PM
The good news is we say things like "a specific mod" and a "certain user" so that nobody knows who is being talked about.....
@MikeEdenfield I don't count him as having left either, he's just suspended, but I'm sure he'll keep coming back like a bad penny
@JackBNimble we should use pig latin names
@phantom42 yes, he was "the one" but I thought his blow-up was over something seemingly minor, where no one else thought the mod did anything wrong?
something about him and someone else posting simlutaneous answers?
@MikeEdenfield yeah, IIRC, it was something about editing answers
@Gilles he decided he was "in exile" before the suspension.
not sure how he was in exile when it was a voluntary thing (at the time), but that's just me.
@phantom42 yeah, and yet he somehow managed to be active and caring enough to earn another suspension
8:32 PM
does being really really hated by the people who hate moderators count as a qualification or a disqualification?
is the enemy of my enemy really my friend?
@MikeEdenfield neither: if you become a mod, they'll hate you automatically
Turns out they are all enemies.
@phantom42 maxim 29: The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more. No less.
also, just for the record: Watership Down, off-topic.
8:35 PM
there are no dragons in it. Sorry.
talking rabbit: off-topic. talking dragon: on-topic.
lemme go edit that into my nomination blurb.
@MikeEdenfield didn't we decide that talking ponies are on-topic?
unicorns are on topic because.. well, duh. unicorns.
MLP:FIM has unicorns.
ergo, MLP > Watership Down
mlp also has talking dragons
MLP:FIM also has magic, so it's a bit easier
8:37 PM
it also has time travelling
as a moderator I will petition to rename the site Science Fiction And Fantasy: Friendship is Magic.SE
> a rabbit seer has an apocalyptic vision
That isn't enough to be on-topic?
"is watership down on topic" should have been one of our questionnaire questions
ok i just read the meta post Shog commented on.
THAT GUY again?
> Fiver has a vision and follows the apparition of the Black Rabbit of Inlé (a rabbit version of the Grim Reaper) to his injured brother
8:39 PM
@MikeEdenfield no, it's cool. he doesnt care about SFF anymore.
@JackBNimble well if you're gonna get all quoting of facts on me, sure. It's on-topic.
I don't know anything about Watership Down except what Wikipedia just told me, but I would say there are certainly elements that make it on-topic.
It's on topic. I just thought that might have been one of the most surreal scope debates we've ever had. It makes me giggle inside a bit.
I guess that puts me in the Watership Down sympathizers category.
it's also primarily mentioned as a running joke
8:41 PM
"Is this on topic? All the rabbits talk."
"But that's just normal for that world, that's not fantasy!"
"Talking animals aren't fantasy?"
"No, not if thats just normal for the world!"
"Guys. that one rabbit is psychic."
"Oh. Ok then, on-topic."
I've seen it mentioned often, but I didn't bother to engage because it was just the dead talking.
I don't have any strong opinion on this specific example because there just aren't that many questions that it affects
Umm, I'm pretty sure magic and dragons are the norm for Krynn, but it is still on-topic.
Also, toads driving cars is the norm in Wind of the Willows.
bonus: watership down being on topic infuriates drizzle
it would be nice if we could come up with a definition of scifi/fantasy that actually did work in practice without a bunch of obvious exceptions
but there doesn't seem to be any particular threat of the site getting overrun by questions about probably-not-fantasy Disney movies or anything like that
8:43 PM
@JackBNimble I believe the primary argument being made was that anthropomorphic animals alone isn't enough to be fantasy, because otherwise, Animal Farm would be fantasy.
The only thing that isn't on-topic is Goofy and Pluto.
Q: What is the difference between Goofy and Pluto?

Jack B NimbleGoofy is a dog who wears clothes, drives a car, and talks. Pluto is a dog that basically acts like a dog. Why the difference?

the line in the sand was if humans could understand the animals talking.
that rule actually makes a lot of sense; in most of those movies I assume the rabbits are still "talking in rabbit" but it's just in English for us viewers
Closed by a bunch of guys who aren't even active anymore, I notice. Oh the humanity!
@MikeEdenfield Animal Farm isn't fantasy because it's a political allegory. This never made sense to me: as opposed to all the other political allegory that's marketed as SF?
8:45 PM
@Gilles Like the SW prequel trilogy?
@JackBNimble that's clearly fantasy
part of me wants to know WTF JakeGould is talking about, the rest of me doesn't want to think about any of this anymore.
Animal Farm feels non-fantasy to me but not because of the allegory, but because there's no magic or super-technology or time travel or other planets or anything; if real animals were slightly more intelligent they could do all that stuff
> if real animals were slightly more intelligent
though irl the farmers would probably have picked up on it at some point
8:47 PM
...what part of that isn't fantasy
@MikeEdenfield if you get elected (which I hope, by the way: I don't know you much, but from what I've seen, you'd make a very good mod), thinking about this will be a daily activity
well now we're back to whether every story with intelligent animals is automatically fantasy
@Shog9 That's called Mrs. Brisby and the Rats of NIMH
@MikeEdenfield It's like you're already a mod!
@Gilles I have that to look forward to!
@Gilles though... I am not getting my hopes up at this point since there are at least 3 quality candidates I am confident will get elected before me.
8:48 PM
@Ixrec so what about toy story?
no magic or super technology there either
I need to go badge-grinding for next year.
yeah, Toy Story doesn't feel like fantasy to me either
If I lose this election and the exit polls say it is because of low meta participation I'm going to flood meta asking about why questions closed 5 years ago were closed. That's a campaign promise.
again, would be nice if we had some clear criteria to apply to these things
@Ixrec TBH, me neither
8:49 PM
@Ixrec The criteria is: What do you feel in your heart?
@JackBNimble what if you dont have a heart?
@Ixrec Then you should vote for me! I have vowed to figure this stuff out or die trying.
@phantom42 What do you feel in that black lump of coal which exists where your heart should?
@MikeEdenfield that is something I noticed and am consciously considering
@MikeEdenfield has one up on me. I haven't made any campaign promises that may result in my own death.
8:51 PM
@JackBNimble because they were about timelords
actually... probably shouldn't say this but whatever... I'll still try to figure this stuff out even if I don't get elected. I just have this feeling that having a moderator get behind that effort, even just encouraging people to participate, would help.
^-- why I want to be a mod, BTW
so, in short, I want to be a mod because I am naive and don't understand users.
@MikeEdenfield People have been debating what's SF for about a century. We aren't going to have a definitive answer.
@JackBNimble last year your campaign promise was that if you got elected no one would die, that's pretty impressive.
@Gilles we still quote your meta post about that, BTW.
so +100 for you :)
we should probably frame the question not as trying to define SF/F, but as deciding how inclusionist we want to be with the non-obvious stuff
yeah, I'm not trying to define "what is SF" so much as "what do we think makes good questions on this site?"
8:54 PM
eg I'd be happy with allowing Gotham questions
I mean you could argue that most ancient mythology is fantasy but we typically claim it's not.
plenty of shakespeare is fantasy.
you could argue most modern religions are fantasy, but then you'd get flagged
just "feels like" that's a bit out of scope for us. i dunno why.
@Ixrec There is also the fact that our scope already overlaps a number of other sites... while I know there's nothing explicitly wrong with that, I think we could avoid expanding our scope to include even more overlap :)
I know we normally aren't supposed to define what is or isn't on-topic by what other sites exist, but the fact that M&TV exists is a strong argument for excluding a lot of, shall we say, "whimsical" shows and movies that don't really "feel like fantasy"
@Ixrec the big problem there is not that they can't be discussed, questions asked and answered, in the context of a work of fiction... The big problem is that by doing so you immediately invite the hordes of trolls who will kill all of your remaining utility by driving out anyone who doesn't want to argue about religion all day.
9:00 PM
I don't think anyone has a strong desire to ask Bible questions here anyway, so that's as good a reason as any to exclude it
I mean... We have a number of actual sites for major religions, and they have enough work to do keeping things focused as it is. You absolutely don't want their problems.
I'm more than happy to let those users discover Christianity.SE or Judaism.SE where the experts are.
If you guys think you hate your moderators, look at the kind of vitriol the mods on Islam.SE have to put up with...
@Shog9 like [arabic.se]?
I could never be a mod on those sites. Probably because I'm not a user of any of them.
9:05 PM
I thought we killed that
oh, we did.
yesterday, by Shog9
@MikeEdenfield Showing up is a surprisingly difficult part of the position for many...
a journey of a thousand miles begins with getting your lazy ass out of bed and making coffee
Sounds like a lot of work.
I want to be a moderator because it may be the only thing to get me to log off the site and do something productive.
9:23 PM
@Gilles I'm not looking for someone to blame regarding the high rep users leaving, and like I said I'm not taking sides between them vs. the mods. But I have seen comments to the effect that the mods and CMs have treated them badly (at least, that is what they perceive).
For example
@Null - CMs and moderators around here sure have a deft hand :) What's the batting average now, 2 somewhat-valuable contributors forced out, and 1 maybe? :) — DVK-in-exile Jan 13 at 0:35
@null - Given my treatment at the hands of the site's Community Managers and moderators, I have seriously considered leaving/going into exile. The jury is still out on that one, frankly. — Richard Jan 12 at 17:07
if you put that on the Community Bulletin sidebar, I would win.
@Null DVK has been whining against the mods, or anybody who'd disagree with him, since forever. Richard is just bitter. You can safely discount these as honest sources.
What DVK and Richard are complaining about is basically that they've been treated fairly — moderators did not turn a blind eye to their disruptive behavior.
Same thing with rand on Puzzling.
@Null the problem with such comments is the implicit belief that losing one or two users is such a catastrophe for the site that we should all change our behavior to prevent it.
Obviously valuable contributors are the key to a successful site.
9:29 PM
but if you can't stand to lose one or two I contend your site has bigger problems.
there is a question in the list for candidates - one of the ones that's always in the list - that y'all should be thinking extra-hard about...
> How would you deal with a user who produced a steady stream of valuable answers, but tends to generate a large number of arguments/flags from comments?
^^^^ what Shog said
I don't mean to brag, but I can jump over a candlestick, as long as I stretch first.
there's a reason why this question is always there: pretty much every site has a couple of those
has everyone posted their answers yet?
9:31 PM
@Gilles I understand that they are biased. My point is that I'm hoping to discuss them privately with the current mods to better understand all that has happened (and I'd need to be a mod to do that). I would probably agree with the mods' actions anyway, but hopefully I could act as a bit of a mediator between them and the current mods to ease the situation a bit.
@JackBNimble lying flat or standing straight?
@Gilles Who would be daring enough to try to jumping over one standing up?!
I meant the candlestick, not you, by the way — but if you can jump over a candlestick lying flat while yourself lying flat, I guess that's something
I think that's called breakdancing?
I don't have a problem losing a couple of users who are too disruptive, and I don't think we should change our behavior to accommodate them, no matter how valuable they are as contributors. Quoting my questionnaire answer:
> Ultimately, if the user continues to cause strife I would meet with the other mods to decide what to do. Although the loss of any user is regrettable -- especially a user who produces many valuable answers -- there eventually comes a point where such a user might do more harm than good.
9:35 PM
@MikeEdenfield Mr. Borkar hasn't.
has everyone that seriously thought they'd get elected posted their answers yet?
FWIW, this one's always in the list because it's a perpetual problem. If you're a moderator for long enough, you'll have to face it - and probably more than a few times. Showing spammers and drive-by trolls the boot is easy; taking aside someone you respect and trying to convince them they have to stop... That's something I think just about everyone struggles with, at least a little bit.
@MikeEdenfield Believe it or not, but I do think he seriously thought he'd get elected. There are other candidates who don't.
You guys don't have to pretend anymore. I know you are talking about me.
...*especially* when it's Jack
9:38 PM
I really wish that guy would come back sometime other than during an election and complain about how horrible we run the site... I can't find any cases where he seemed to object to something we did.
@JackBNimble The only elections I haven't voted for you on are the elections I'm ineligible to vote in.
nope just last year's election.
@JonEricson Thank you for your support.
@JonEricson Q. Is it considered appropriate for devs to make jokes about other site's elections?
no. It's REQUIRED.
9:40 PM
@MikeEdenfield Only if they think the jokes are funny.
Sorry, that's just me generating my occasionally amusing inside-joke questions again :)
it's not funny until you post it on MSE
pfft. I already had one ex-mod tell me we had a bad reputation for that.
maybe after I lose the election so it'll be more passive-agressive sounding.
@JonEricson you mean you voted for Jack even on the elections where you were eligible to vote, but he didn't run? STAFF ABUSE!
are you voting for @jack in the Seasoned Advice election?
9:47 PM
@MikeEdenfield Yes. And so are all my sock puppets.
my sock puppets don't vote, they just play metal.
Rock the Vote, man.
I was a write-in candidate.
2 hours later…
11:53 PM
since we're evidently going to have two people with a score of 0 in the primary, will the tie be broken by upvote or downvote count? or do both candidates get eliminated?
Q: What math decides who is eliminated during election primaries?

CalebDuring the primary phase of SE elections the candidate pool is narrowed to 10 nominations based on a free-form up/down voting system much like answers. However the vote math system has some funky stuff that we'd probably be better off without like showing the vote tallies as: floor ( upvotes - d...

@Ixrec They don't have zero, it just only shows you zero.
I'm aware of that
One has -23 and the other has -56. Seems rather straight forward.
do we know for sure whether or not the tie breaking rule Jason linked will apply to two 0s even if the vote counts are different?
11:56 PM
I suspect they'd probably look at the actual score
My understanding is that we see a minimum of zero mainly to avoid rubbing salt in the wound, as it were
@JasonBaker 'S wadda meant.
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