We're just here to get to know the candidates and ask questions regarding the candidates views on moderation that may help in voting.
A few notes about the format:
The format is open, feel free to ask your question(s) unprompted, however please be mindful of whether or not candidates have answered the previous questions so that they don't get behind and start missing questions. Other than that, feel free to jump in.
Candidates, please use the reply feature so that questions and their answers are linked together. (Hover your mouse over the left of the message, click the down arrow, click reply)
When a question is asked, I'll star it - please star it yourself also to help! Please save stars for the questions so that candidates can refer to the star list to make sure they haven't missed a question.
@Josh will be creating a digest version of the town hall chat after it is completed. This digest will take the form of a question on meta, containing all the questions asked as well as their answers for easier reading.
There's a system message up on the site, so we may get some stragglers joining us.
The candidates I see here are: @xenoterracide, @Tshepang, @mattdm, @MichaelMrozek, and @phunehehe.
@Josh This came up on meta a few times; we have something of an agreement with AU now that appears in the FAQ, so I intend to keep following that unless somebody revisits it: they migrate stuff that doesn't apply to Ubuntu here, we migrate stuff that only applies to Ubuntu there, and stuff that applies to both stays where it was posted unless the asker mod-flags it
@Josh my personal policy for AU is to only migrate by request; or in the very rare event that the question really does apply only to Ubuntu. But I haven't really seen any questions like that yet. I'm not sure I'd know anyways.
@Josh I think the Ubuntu segregation is unfortunate, and although I know there were earlier votes that came down against it, I'd like to work towards ultimately merging the sites again. I think questions where Ubuntu just happens to be the distro are perfectly on-topic here. Questions which are specifically about community issues or development under Canonical's toolset would be candidates for migration. And I'd like to see more general-Linux questions from Ask Ubuntu migrated here.
Candidates, what is your view on the new "Everyone Can Edit" functionality that has been added to the site? Does it make the job of a moderator easier? DO you like the system, or do you have concerns?
@Josh I'm iffy about it on some sites, people tend to post poor edits. It's worked great for us though; we've had 177 suggested edits, and only 10 were rejected; one user in particular went to town with them and wrote a ton of tag wikis that nobody else cared about creating
@Josh I don't feel good if there are question that won't be looked at by certain people who have the knowledge. I'm greedy for U&L and will only migrate (1) questions that are really specific to Ubuntu or (2) by request of the OP.
@Josh I like it. I'm not sure it particularly affects my job, easier or harder. But it does allow more people to help clean things up, and make things better. Things I wouldn't have noticed
@Josh I haven't seen what it looks like from the moderator side yet, but on the photo-SE site it's really helped some great new contributors make changes. Right now, accepted edits give reputation; if the system becomes problematic someday, it'd be easy enough to make rejected edits have a penalty. Or there could be a separate system like the new "flag score". But right now, I've only seen positives.
@Josh This is actually good, because once a site grows, there are many "little" improvements that new users can make. Having to wait until you earn enough reputation can be discouraging, and when you finally have enough reputation you would have missed a lot of things to edit already. It puts more tasks on moderators actually, but I think it is good. If a moderator is too busy he/she won't have enough time for small mistakes.
Most of the suggested edits stuff isn't actually restricted to mods; 2k users can approve/improve them, and 10k users can see the review tab and the queue indicator
Here's what it looks like on SO, where I'm not a mod (or at least it did; this is a bit old):
@phunehehe You can't see the list until 10k, so you'd have to stumble across a post that happens to have one waiting; you'd see "edit (0)" instead of a normal edit link
@Tshepang I think the expert community is different. A lot of Linux users wouldn't describe themselves as "power users" at all — or even "computer enthusiasts".
@tshepang SU was an old site, newer stack 2.0 sites have much more focus, in fact it could be accurately said that Unix SE was entirely covered by either SO, SF, or SU. However, as a site with sharper focus, we take precedence over those sites for Unix/Linux questions. (or at least we should, I've no idea on the SF policy)
@Tshepang It's a tough one. I personally felt alienated when I was on Super User. It was strange that my questions would be adequately answered on a site that also had a lotta Windows experts. I haven't used it much to really judge well, but many mentioned the poorer quality of the responses there (SU).
@xenoterracide when you answer a question, hover to the left of the question, click the arrow that appears, and click reply, it'll link the answer to the question automatically for you
@Tshepang I continue to think (and Ivo would stab me for this) that SU is too all-encompassing; it was creating before SE sites exist to cover pretty much all computer stuff that didn't fit on SO/SF. Now the SE sites have a lot of overlap, and we've been dealing with it pretty well; AU is a subset of UL, which is a subset of SU along with Apple and probably a couple others
@Tshepang Also, a little off the direct question, but in coming here from Server Fault, I've often noticed non-professional-admin Linux questions getting sent off to Super User basically to die. I think that's unfortunate, and I think we can be a better destination for those.
@MichaelMrozek Not being experienced at being a real SE mod, I have no idea, although you could say I've been moderating (in a sense) since I've done lots of commenting and editing. It's probably a >hour per day on average.
@Tshepang I don't want to keep saying bad things about other sites and praise ours. I have been a frequent visitor on SU and I feel that things are so far apart. That is the key difference to me. In breaking the SE sites we have the advantage of fine-grained interest. So, when a *nix user visit UL he/she will always see familiar topics that are interesting to him/her. There can be quite some overlap between SU and UL, but in such cases I'd always prefer the post to be on UL if it is on topic.
@MichaelMrozek I try to look at the site every day, at least for moderation. I have all the site's questions in rss and review them, to see if I have interest in answering or moderating the question.
@mattdm It's my preference that all Unix/Linux posts be sent here. Our response here is quite good. I already asked for that in SF, although there was basically no support for the idea.
@xenoterracide Well, the problem is SU wants them too, they're on-topic there. And it's easier to migrate to SU since SO/SF have migration paths there; for us to get it a mod needs to step in before it closes
@RebeccaChernoff I don't think that's a moderator-specific thing. It's part of being an active member of the community in general. I think moderators should be involved, but outreach is a different aspect which doesn't necessarily overlap.
@RebeccaChernoff Not really part of mod job, but I whenever relevant, I try to promo the site. I continuously mention it in my blog (i.e. link to great posts).
@MichaelMrozek Right now I'm visiting the site everyday, spending around 3 hours in total. I guess being a mod will be very different, but I'm not sure if I can split the hours and say "This much time is mod time. This much time is answer time".
Phew things are flowing out quite fast. I'm fighting to keep up!
@mattdm But one thing that attracts users is simply having a well-moderated site. If questions are well organized and easy to search, and if the content is high quality, that means people who are directed here (or stumble upon the site) will have a good experience and will stay around. So, that's a key area in which moderators can have influence.
@RebeccaChernoff I think it's important that moderator's do personal promotion, for example I link on my blog and I did mention at one point that I might end up being a moderator. But I believe it's more important for us to try to keep people from leaving. People leave when they have negative experiences, and it's our job to keep those at a minimum
@RebeccaChernoff I posted oh so long ago about miscellaneous ideas for promoting the site, but I don't really view it as a mod task; there's virtually nothing mods can do promotionally that can't be done by anyone. Linking awesome questions/answers seems the best way to me; hopefully someday announcer/booster/publicist will help
@Josh No, I kind of forgot :). I'm on the site pretty consistently; I'm up to 207 consecutive days, and it's mostly editing and other such things. I see most mod flags I think
@Tshepang Keeping the site focused and organized will keep users interested. I don't think it's so much about preventing people from leaving as it is making them want to come back.
@Tshepang Depends why they're leaving I suppose; there isn't a great way to track that. I would assume the main reason is people being rude in comments/posts, and we delete those pretty fast. As long as people read a question and the top answer is good they're going to keep reading questions here; letting bad/rude/unhelpful posts stick around is a great way to start looking like any other forum out there.
@Tshepang Spam/offensive/mod flags take care of that pretty well; we just started to have a spam problem yesterday, and users have been downvoting/spam flagging, which was encouraging
@Tshepang I agree with not jumping all over 1 rep users too; that happened to me early on SO and left me pretty annoyed with the site for a while
@Tshepang That's an excellent point. The same thing applies to new answers with problems. Comment first, and you can always come back and down vote later. On the other hand, if a question or answer is clearly completely off-base, it should be dealt with quickly.
@Tshepang In the spirit of the question. I try to make sure that the site stays on topic so that people are interested. That any post that is considered harmful, or in some way not on topic, is removed. I also try to make sure that any users who are stirring up serious trouble/trolling are talked to. Obviously we can't prevent everyone from leaving, and I don't take time to bother users who are simply not active (I don't think they would appreciate it. I wouldn't)
@RebeccaChernoff "Bring more people to the community" sounds like marketing, while I feel the role of a moderator is more like house keeping. Everyone can share links, talk to their friends, ask their friends' questions, not just moderators. What we can call responsibility is, how much do we want the site to grow. Being a moderator can add to my pride -> I love UL more -> I tell more people about it. That won't change my attitude towards advertising the site, though, I'm doing my best at that already :)
@Tshepang Outdated comments are generally noise, and if they don't apply anymore (including not applying to new users asking a similar question) they should simply be removed.
my answer: I don't like keeping outdated comments around, but I'd like to avoid the commotion caused by people who think they are still useful. So I'm split on this one. I'd like to hear what others say.
@Tshepang I generally don't worry about comments unless they are offensive, or harmful. I see no reason to take them down. If they are oudated because a url is wrong, it's better to update them than delete.
@Tshepang I agree with Gilles' answer here; I prefer seeing the complete conversation. Even if the post makes sense on its own, I rarely delete comments. On other sites, even the trilogy, comments are usually only deleted if a whole comment thread has devolved into a flame war
@xenoterracide yeah, but comments can't be edited, and sometimes there's a fifty-comment discussion. If that's all irrelevant, it simply gets in the way.
@Tshepang There are 2 answer. First I don't want to interfere anyone who is leaving just because they don't see things they are interested in. Second, I really hate it when users choose to leave because they see things that should not be there. I particularly hate it when one of my friends tell me "I went there once, and they tell me to go look at the 1000 line manual".
Moderation requires decisive action. You may find yourself in a position where you're unsure of what action to take, but can't immediately discuss the situation with a fellow moderator. Are you more inclined to act swiftly or wait for additional input, and how would you decide where to draw the line?
@RebeccaChernoff Chat kind of eliminated "can't immediately discuss the situation with a fellow moderator" -- someone is always active in the general mod room. But in any case I don't think that problem actually comes up; if I'm undecided on something, it's something that can wait, and I just leave the flag in the queue. If it's something that has to happen now, it's pretty clear cut. So I guess I'm more inclined to act swiftly, but it's because I'm pretty sure I know what people would want
@RebeccaChernoff Spam is out. But other than that, we're not yet so active that for lesser problems we can't wait a little bit to get a consensus (not just from other moderators but from other community members). This is particularly true for actions which can't easily be undone.
@RebeccaChernoff Not wanting to abuse power, I'd rather try be patient and wait. This is except in obvious cases of deliberate cases of abuse (e.g. there's one user who made fun of FLOSS users, ranting about how silly they are), and of course spam.
@RebeccaChernoff if I am unsure of the action to take it is generally because it's a very borderline topic. In which case it can wait until I can discuss it. If I have an idea of where I want to go with the problem I may comment on it @user so that they can know what direction we're thinking about going. If I am very on the line, I'm likely to make a meta post of it, to see what the community thinks.
@Tshepang We can argue about it later, but I would 100% not call this "abusing power" -- you're being elected to do a job. It's like accusing Congress of abusing power because they passed a law
A diamond will be attached to everything you say and have said in the past, including questions, answers and comments. Everything you will do will be seen under a different light. How do you feel about that?
@MichaelMrozek although sometimes congress does abuse their power... but I don't think we're congress. We're better than politicians, and AFAIK we have no lobbyists.
@RebeccaChernoff I'll wait, until something meaningful happens. If there is something wrong, there will be users flagging or commenting on it. There is a community, and it's best if the community can decide on its own.
@xenoterracide I never did that without asking the other party to delete theirs though. Sometimes there was refusal of course, so I must admit that was premature of me.
@MichaelMrozek I try to conduct myself in a professional, grown-up manner on the internet regardless of whether there's a special symbol by my name. I don't think the moderator status changes that for me personally, although I appreciate the extra need to watch oneself as an official representative of the site.
@Tshepang To be clear, since I said I was in favor of deleting irrelevant comments, I mean clearly irrelevant. I don't intend to be heavy-handed with borderline cases.
@MichaelMrozek I don't like it, but I'm used to it. I'd like a way to be a normal user most of the time (similar to how reddit handles things), since plenty of activity has nothing to do with being a mod, but lacking that it's not a big deal. I at least like the indication that people can ask me for help
Candidates, what was the first site in the network you used? Is Unix.SE your first site and you branched off from there? Or have you been with us since the earlier days? (pre-superuser, etc)
@xenoterracide We've been pretty active on meta with discussing on-topic things; I think that works pretty well. When it comes to obvious overlap with other sites we usually talk with the other mods (cough AU). For things that tend to come up more often we've been adding them to the FAQ as well
@me Obviously the FAQ, but in some cases we do have to make decisions, in which case I go with gut instinct, discuss with the other moderators of the site, and post to meta if necessary. It was actually one of the goals of mine to make sure that the site was ontopic in the right ways. So I try to voice my own opinion
@Josh I started on SO, but not since the beginning (a little under a year ago now). I got on MSO a few months after that; I don't post much on SO anymore, it's mostly editing/voting, but I still post a lot on MSO. UL is the only other site I'm particularly active on besides those two, although I poke around the others and have way too many accounts in my profile
@Josh probably stackoverflow though I don't think it was pre superuser. I think I started with it around the time SF and SU were created, in fact I think it was their announcement that got me on them.
@mattdm I once asked a specific question regarding some Debian decision, regarding this or that version of a package, and it was closed as too localised.
@Tshepang That happened to me (on another site) and I'm still feel bad about it. I don't think I have seen any such question here though. Generally if the question is on topic and the OP keeps updating information about the question (i.e when asked) then it should be kept.
@Tshepang no, but then again I'm usually the one who has been making those kinds of rough decisions. Sometimes it's a hard call to say this is too localized or this is too broad, or this is offtopic. It's the responsibility of the moderator to do that to keep the site from getting offtopic or uninteresting
@Tshepang I think I'd be slow on the too-localized call. I think "would this possibly be interesting to someone else any other time ever" is a good metric.
@RebeccaChernoff So, final thoughts: pretty much all of the candidates seem excellent. I won't be at all offended if you don't vote for me. I think I'd do a good job, though, and I'd like to help out.
Well I have to leave for a meeting, so I'll give a final thought now:
I would like to thank all the candidates for taking time to answer our questions and for volunteering their time! And even though she'll tell me not to I want to extend a huge thanks to @RebeccaChernoff for organizing these Town Halls and helping to build great communities! (And for being up so early ;-)
Which do you recommend? Some POVs to consider:
stability
available packages
life
kernels
or any other reasons?
[note] This question was originally a request for recommendation between Debian 5 "lenny" and Debian 6 "squeeze". I modified it to make it more generic.
@xenoterracide Well, at least an example post would be good. You could check the user history and see if it's an unregistered account from your IP; maybe you just weren't logged in or something
Is there a way to disconnect from an SSH session that has become unresponsive without killing the whole terminal? Specifically I'm using konsole, and the machine I'm working with sometimes hangs, but doesn't actually die (thus killing the connection). So SSH just hangs and I have to close the ter...
You've got mad and are abusing your mod powers. A dev is on the way to suspend you for life. You only have time to ban one person before they get to you. Do you suspend: Rebecca Chernoff, Jeff Atwood, Josh, or whichever innocent user's profile you can find first
@xenoterracide We've been pretty active on meta with discussing on-topic things; I think that works pretty well. When it comes to obvious overlap with other sites we usually talk with the other mods (cough AU). For things that tend to come up more often we've been adding them to the FAQ as well
@MichaelMrozek can I do the on-topic tag visual appearance in a meta answer? If not I'll just link it normally
This is still being posted
I will remove this message when the digest is complete
The following is a "digest" version of the 2011 Moderator Election Town Hall Chat. The format, as described on Meta Stack Overflow, is one answer to this question for every question asked in the Town Hall,...
xenoterracide asked: How do you decide what is offtopic?
mattdm answered: @xenoterracide By following the FAQ and precedent. If there's a question, a discussion in Meta is appropriate.
phunehehe answered: @xenoterracide The site name and the FAQ. Other than that base on Meta
Tshepang ans...
I remember trying this before. links get lost as does formatting. But at least it's equal, and, all the answers have the "answered" permalink so people can hop into the transcript at that point
Which do you recommend? Some POVs to consider:
stability
available packages
life
kernels
or any other reasons?
[note] This question was originally a request for recommendation between Debian 5 "lenny" and Debian 6 "squeeze". I modified it to make it more generic.
