@JimG. I occasionally see stuff downvoted I disagree with, but everyone has their own opinion.
The best we can do is try to see what people may have disagreed with and help resolve those issues with suggestions and edits, if possible.
@PaulBrown Thanks Paul for this feedback! It's great to hear that our site is making a real impact on people's lives!
Be sure to share this with your friends, neighbors, colleagues, and anyone else who you think would benefit from this community. :)
Let us know what your first day is like! :)
@JimG. And there are times when we might learn something ourselves. Like Paul, this site has been a great resource for me, and I'm always thrilled when I'm able to learn something here that I didn't know before... or that I thought I knew.. :)
Holy mother of goodness this new Help Center thing is annoying. I'd love it if @jmort253 could chime in on what options we have in improving it when he gets a chance. See this meta post:
It looks like our FAQ link now redirects to a help center. I don't think it has the same information as it used to (it would seem, not 100% positive).
This is apparently universally rolled-out across all SE sites according to this meta post.
Personally I find it much more difficult to find what...
Also, I think this question is pretty inappropriate for the site as it is, and would like to invite people to read and check to see if they agree (and if so, add a close vote):
For ten years I was writing pretty boring web apps in .NET and Rails and it seems like a dead-end to me. How can I get a job at the companies developing large-scale distributed web applications? What skills should I have for them to ignore my complete lack of experience in that area? Oh, and I ne...
@jmac: I agree. But the only thing more annoying than that was when a new moderator would say: Hello [username]! Welcome to Workplace.SE! Your question is 'Too Localized'. Please read the FAQ! [With a redirect link.]
@jmac: Either way. I don't see that empty redirect anymore, so maybe we'll all lean on that FAQ a little less.
@jmac: Point being - There's a lot of people (even beyond the moderators) who are willing to lend a helping hand and understand, clarify, edit, and reopen worthy questions.
@jmac: I already voted to close the second question.
especially for a site like here which is a bit more, errr, tricky than others due to subjectivity and the tendency for folks to think it is an advice column in SE format.
Really, most people don't go right for the faq anyway, so we'll always need to coach new users and help them grasp what we're about when they do decide to contribute, but that's okay. We have a lot of friendly, helpful people leaving nice comments and helping to create more success stories like Paul Brown. :)
@jmac When clicking the faq link on the right, it takes us to the help center, but the top half is that same welcome message with the big orange button.
I particularly enjoyed the Google Webmaster Central blog entry Tips for getting help with your site.
It covers how to ask questions in a public forum rather well, and I think almost all the rules apply to our Q&A engine:
Ask in public.
Do your homework.
Be specific.
Make it relevant to others....
No, no it wasn't. Instead they made a mandatory page
I really dislike MSO sometimes.
@jmort253 one more question, how do I take someone to chat in a comment thread? If there are enough comments it suggests it, but how do I do it pre-emptively?
Hey @DirtyOldMan -- I'm glad you gave it another shot, but I think this is still a bit too specific and almost an exact duplicate of the last question you asked which was closed by the community. You are asking for personal advice rather than something that may help other people in the future. Any chance you could focus your question on one aspect of this issue, such as, "When applying to a related industry, should I be applying to entry-level positions?" or something of the sort?> — jmac1 hour ago
@jmac I don't think anyone needs an answer to the generic question. The generic answer for all software industry career development questions is "learn, blog, write open source". The fields and subfields are different and career advice from a lawyer won't do any good to software developer and vice versa. The requirement of generality is exactly the opposite of the rules I've seen on other SE sites - they want a question that could have a specific, concrete answer. — DirtyOldMan1 hour ago
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I wasn't asking for a generic question, I asked you to focus your question on one more general aspect of the current situation. This site is supposed to be a resource for other people, so asking, "This is my work history and this is what I want to do, how can I do it?" is not a good fit. However, asking, "When changing fields, what position should I be looking for?" has a much broader appeal and will help both you (looking for a job in a new field) and other people (who are doing the same, even in different fields). — jmac51 mins ago
@jmac Are suggesting that software developers and medical doctors should post the same questions and receive the same advice? What about young and old people? Should they receive the same advice too? — DirtyOldMan7 mins ago
@DirtyOldMan Let me explain my point a bit more clearly. If your question is so specific it will only apply to "above average" software developers of .NET and rails who have 10 years of experience, "a patchy work history" and want to break in to the "large-scale web development" industry, then it is far too specific. How many other people do you think that will help?
@DirtyOldMan but if it's a question like, "I have 10 years of experience in language X but want to move to language Y, what sort of position would be appropriate to apply for considering I have no experience in language Y?" then the advice would be applicable to you, but also help anyone who has extensive experience in one field, and wants to move to a related field (even doctors, perhaps).
@DirtyOldMan limiting the scope of your question to an incredibly localized set of conditions makes the question less valuable. The question you ask should help you, but it shouldn't help only you. If you have an issue finding a question that sits in that happy middle-ground, then we are more than willing to help you out here.
When you ask a question on any SE site, you get a sidebar like this one:
Who is allowed to edit this text for each community? This is visible to anyone who asks a question, even if they have ignored the FAQ and the About page, and is a very useful tool to getting direct advice across.
I can't...
@synapse The answer to your current question would be quite simply, "Apply to large-scale developer jobs and hope you get one" -- there isn't much advice we can give beyond that...
@synapse Your question can only invite generic answers because any specific answer would become too localized and not help others.
Making the question generic will allow us to create an answer that explains why and how to that generic issue, and allow you to understand the method of applying that thought to your own situation
@synapse I'm not suggesting leaving out the background so that people who do have specific domain knowledge can focus their answer more, I am suggesting that you make the question about a specific concrete issue that people can answer rather than a generic, "This is my background, this is what I want to do, advice please" which isn't appropriate for the site
For ten years I was writing pretty boring web apps in .NET and Rails and it seems like a dead-end to me. How can I get a job at the companies developing large-scale distributed web applications? What skills should I have for them to ignore my complete lack of experience in that area? Oh, and I ne...
@synapse from the perspective of many users, having these sorts of, "Here is my situation, what should I do?" greatly limits the usefulness of the site turning it in to a "Dear Workplace" site, rather than a collection of knowledge on how to deal with workplace issues.
Career questions are allowed on Workplace, so long as they follow the guidelines. If you want to know how to get a job in a large-scale web developer, you're better off talking to recruiters, or friends in those sorts of jobs, or directly applying -- we can't help you with any of those things.
@jmort253 My feeling was that it was because career questions are either (a) too localized, (b) polling, or (c) end up flooding us with questions of, "Which job should I take?" and other "Dear Abby" sorts of questions
@jmac oh, that's nice. if your code doesn't work as intended you better talk to your colleagues, ask the vendor but please don't go asking around StackOverflow
I actually feel like this question would make for a good meta discussion on our site. It doesn't really appear to be a dear abby or a which job should I take.
@synapse If I were a paid recruiter trying to find you a job (which I'm not), and had access to your entire resume and work history (which I don't), the best I could do is find you jobs to apply for, and explain that successful candidates for those jobs have X, Y or Z on their resumes.
@synapse But let's say I say on this site, "You should be sure you have experience in languages X, Y, and Z" will that help you out if you don't have experience in X, Y, and Z? Not really. So the questions mutates to, "How do I get skills X, Y, and Z?" which is no longer a workplace question...
@synapse the best way to figure out if you're qualified is to apply. Even if I tell you exactly what I want a resume to look like, I am not hiring for those sorts of jobs in your area, and your mileage may vary
Even if I were able to provide an exhaustive checklist of the skills large-scale web developers want, the question mutates to, "I have items 1-13, 16, and 33-36, sort of on 48. Do I have a chance?" and the answer is, "I have no idea"
@synapse So I should go through the entire list of web-development jobs, list out the specific requirements for each that are musts, and then provide a list of beneficial skills that will be evaluated positively for each position in each company?
@synapse Perhaps I'm a bit off here, but couldn't you accomplish the exact same thing by looking for job openings, talking to headhunters, and applying?
@synapse That would give you infinitely better advice than what any of us can give, because it is 100% personalized, and 100% pertinent
@jmac you're not obligated to do anything. i'm looking for answers from people who were in my situation and people from the companies I would like to work at.
@synapse It sounds to me like you're restless and hate your job, and just want someone to give you reassurance that you can move on to something more fun
@synapse I would say it's less likely physics will be revolutionized than the specific "learn this technology to be a web developer in june 2013" will be obscolete
@synapse I'm honestly not sure what you are actually asking, here, since your title of the question and all its text strikes me as considerably different than the chat conversation
@synapse I understand you're frustrated. Really I do. I know you think that there's a magical answer out there to your question. That someone can provide this perfect answer that will allow you to make a decision on what to do. But there isn't. If you want another job, no advice will tell you if you can get it. The only way to know is to try. Even if I said "There's no chance you can get it with your skills" you would be foolish if you trusted me (no matter how experienced I am)
@enderland I really think some editing would help clarify this question. As someone who works in development, I could see this being answered in a way that doesn't require listing specific technologies.
I haven't worked in large scale shops, but if the question were about how to jump into a startup or smaller companies, I'd definitely be able to offer a solid answer that didn't involve anything about specific technologies.
but have fun, and I'll go do more enjoyable things this evening - best of luck getting help and clarity on something by attacking those who are trying to help!
@jmort253 i've specifically haven't mentioned startups. i've tried this road and ended being the smartest guy in the room. and that's exactly the thing i want to avoid
once you figure that out, anyone who is a talented person who can write any sort of terrible code (let along GOOD code) can get a job doing nearly any development job they want
so if you are an incredibly talented developer as you seem to imply, you should have no problems getting jobs in software - regardless of field (perhaps different if you are in countries where the economy is terrible, but most of the world this is not the case)
I think he just meant to say that a non-software dev would have trouble understanding the problem, and that may be true.... and there are some non-software folks on this site, so it's not wrong to assume some of us aren't devs.
so either start networking or working on some freelance projects (again, if you are so good at this you should be able to spend a weekend and put together a portfolio to use as reference) and start applying
@synapse i've tried this road and ended being the smartest guy in the room.
@synapse to be bluntly honest, it sounds like you have no idea what you want, or if you do aren't able to communicate it to the people who could help you
@synapse the first step to getting people to help you out is to be able to clearly define what help it is you need. This isn't about generic or non-generic questions, it's about clearly stating what it is you are looking for help with, and giving enough context for people to be able to help.
@synapse from what you've said (10 years, find your job boring, patchy work experience, not such great communication skills) I think that the issue has little to do with the type of company, and more to do with a lack of understanding on what you want and/or a lack of ability to work hard to get what you want.
@synapse If you know what job you want, apply for it -- don't ask if you will get it, because we can't help you there (we aren't the ones doing the hiring).
@synapse If there are few companies with few positions you want, look for the job descriptions of those companies/openings, and you can figure out if you qualify or not.
@synapse so you have a list of companies and jobs you want to work for. You have given us two to three sentences on your qualifications, no information on the actual jobs you want (beyond the incredibly generic "large-scale distributed web applications"), and you expect us to be able to explain if you are qualified?
another reason i've asked this question is that some time ago i've got what i thought is a dream job. but it turned out to be a dead-end too. the only person who had the authority to do interesting stuff was one of the founders.
@synapse No. That has little bearing on this though, since we're at the point where you are having generic work-related problems, not specific ones related to software development.
@synapse at any rate, I am about at the end of my ability to help
@synapse good luck, but realize the question will likely be closed very soon (4 close votes right now) for the reasons I initially explained. People in chat are able to help (if they are willing to), but if you want to ask on the main site, I suggest clarifying what you want to ask.
2
@synapse Just because I do not develop software does not mean I am not familiar with software.
@synapse I am almost positive that none of you are even vaguely related to my field. That doesn't mean I assume you know nothing about it.
@synapse I've worked in software in the past. I work with software in my current job every day (as a user). I deal with "large-scale distributed web applications" and configuring them to suit the needs of my team.
Oh yay, its one of Those days, sigh, we have an ex developer with a reputation for writing some of the worst code we have, i get the joys of dealing with that today, kill me now xD
@synapse I am guessing you do not want to do maintenance type work for a Facebook, Amazon, SE, Google, or other large site. You want to be an original developer. The thing is these large distributed web apps start off as small projects developed by a small group of people.
No one puts together a giant engineering team and spends millions of dollars developing a web app that the market for is questionable. So instead they start off as small projects that get refactored as they need to grow.
3
So your dream job probably does not exist right now. Maybe in 20 or 30 years software development will be more science and less art. Right now companies would rather take risks with a few artists than a butt load of engineers.
The government uses 10 year old development standards and tech with known vulerabilities because that what the legislation that authorised the funding of the project called for becauseit was cutting edge when the project was proposed, then a year to get approved, 3 years planning, 2 years in bid process, 5 years of development later...
And the governtment doesnt hire hacker programmers they hire career IT process devlopers
@enderland baaaaaaaah
You are just afraid because you found out that they were monitoring everything on the interweb tubes... me I realize how incompetent they government really is so I know that the amount of data overwelms them :p
@Chad From what i've heard about them even if the only data they got was stuff from, those who wish them harm, they still wouldn't know what to Do with that information
awkward: going out to lunch with people in the same position as you, having someone bring up "did you negotiate your offer at all?" and then hearing people lament that there was no ability to get a signing bonus.... when you got one by negotiating
LOL I had something similar happen where the group talked about how the salaries for the positions were fixed and everyone there made the same... about half of what I Was being paid for the same position.
yeah. in retrospect, I think I could have pushed much harder
or more directly
I didn't suggest a number I was hoping for (which was dumb)
now... when I move positions in the next two years, I'm going to be an aggressive and assertive bastard to that hiring manager and make myself a nice raise, since I will convince them I'm worth it ;)
Proposed Q&A site for people seeking answers to questions about dating, long term relationships, love, marriage or other commitments, and everything else typically considered a "relationship".
Currently in commitment.
do you have trouble committing in relationships? commit to this proposal? hah
Dear R&A SE, I am on mars and finding it very difficult to find a mate since 98% of the people here are male and the other 2 are lesbians. What should i do?
My question is how do you address both short term employment and unemployment on a resume that occurred back to back of each other? It seems like it presents a red flag either way. On the one hand, if the short term employment is listed followed by the unemployment period, then it would seem li...
I particularly enjoyed the Google Webmaster Central blog entry Tips for getting help with your site.
It covers how to ask questions in a public forum rather well, and I think almost all the rules apply to our Q&A engine:
Ask in public.
Do your homework.
Be specific.
Make it relevant to others....
My question is how do you address both short term employment and unemployment on a resume that occurred back to back of each other? It seems like it presents a red flag either way. On the one hand, if the short term employment is listed followed by the unemployment period, then it would seem li...
The Water Cooler
The Water Cooler